Scooter Economics

[Southerner]

Question: Considering all costs, is it really cheaper to commute with a scooter? Based on my experience, with a full-sized motorcycle, there's considerable doubt, especially when one considers the high price, including installation, of tires, coupled with their low mileage vis-a-vis car tires.

Then there's maintenance issues, such as valve adjustments.

Since scooters are simpler and have single cylinder motors, I would expect them to better a large motorcycle considerably but I wonder how much more economical a scooter is than a small car, such as a Fit or similar.

The cheapest new small car prices I find (MSRP) start in the 14k range so any scooter (other than the largest maxis) have a considerable head start.

[Throwback7R]

To quote my GF that has a Bug and a Buddy, she has a 22 mile 1 way drive to work and she say it turns the drive to work into a Ride.. " SO more fun per mile.

the cost of ownership I would say is so much cheaper tires.. are cheap even if you have someone else do the work same with oil changes and valve checks.. If you are handy, It can be done.. I do all my stuff my self. Just read the book

All that being said, the 125 costs about .04$ a mile Just for gas. I will figure tires last 4-6K and Oil changes are every 2k I do valves every oil change just cause I am in there why not.

I hope this helps

[gar1013]

Probably not cheaper than getting a base model compact car or similar.

More fun though.

[neotrotsky]

Actually, it *is* cheaper. Being a former stage manager and working in the arts, I'm pedantic about keeping track of maintenance on everything I own because I had to do it for a living and I'm paranoid of having to spend more money in repairs when maintenance can avoid it. Evidence in my ownership:

Bike: 2013 Kymco Agility 125.
Out-the-door cost: $2150 (new)
Average MPG: 81.5mpg
Distance Traveled per week (5 days/week): 44 miles
Ownership time: 9 Months
Cost of service interval average (Engine Oil, Gear Oil, Air Filter/Cartridge, Spark plug averaged over 6 months/10k Km): $10.72/Month
Cost of insurance for 6 months: $101 (liability only)
Total cost of ownership over 6 months: 2315.32+ 5,280 miles/81.5mpg x $3.74/Gallon average over 6 months (91 octane)= $2557.62

Vs.
Car: 2000 Chevrolet Tracker 2.0
Out-the-door cost: $5230 (used with 75k miles)
Average MPG: 25.9mpg
Distance traveled per week (5 Days/week): Same distance
Cost of service interval average: $72.73/Month
Cost of insurance for 6 months: $918 (full coverage)
Total Cost of ownership over 6 months: $5230+5,280 miles/25.9mpg x $3.45/Gallon average over 6 months (89 octane)=$6851.32

I still own both vehicles, and the average service cost also includes repairs made (thankfully, both vehicles have had VERY minor repair issues). The biggest cost factors are insurance. The bike only has liability since I bought it outright and, let's be honest... if you hit a Kymco Agility with a car, it's either going to bounce and come out without a scratch or be retrieved in small Ziploc bags. They're tanks and if you hit one hard enough to stop it, you are probably going fast enough to disintegrate it. The car is required to have full coverage insurance due to it being financed.

But, over the term of 6 months, the bike is a clear savings! I drove the car for an entire off season while we were waiting to get a grant bonus, so it actually made a great comparison.

[TVB]

I can't quantify it scientifically, but I'm pretty sure I've saved money by buying and riding a scooter the past five years. Between the purchase price and various service and repairs, I've spent maybe $3500 onit. Meanwhile, that's kept over 15K miles off my car (a 10-year-old Hyundai with nearly 100K miles on it), which in the meantime has probably cost me just as much just in repairs and service. If I'd simply parked the car (instead of using it in the winter and occasionally in the summer), it would've meant a little more wear and tear on the scooter, but I'd've saved enough on care maintenance to buy another scooter. Some of this calculus depends on the particular age of the car (when it's getting expensive again to keep running) but I still think I'm ahead, because it's allowing me to get more years out of this car without having to replace it.

Plus there's the money I've saved on gas.

[DanielPerrin]

(paraphrased) Meanwhile, that's kept over 15K miles off my car (a 10-year-old Hyundai with nearly 100K miles on it). Some of this calculus depends on the particular age of the car (when it's getting expensive again to keep running) but I still think I'm ahead, because it's allowing me to get more years out of this car without having to replace it.

I'm with you. My experience has been that it's cheaper (at least in the short to mid term, if not long term) to keep an aging car running than to buy a whole new car. I have no car payment, the car value isn't plummeting as quickly as a new car does, etc. Especially if you can use a scooter more than the car. I put twice as many miles on my scooter than on my 110K mile Honda. Buying a new Honda would be a lot more pricey than using the Buddy.

[charlie55]

I'm in the same boat: 2000 Altima with 120K on it, and the Helix. Most of my scooter use is comprised of short trips, errands, and the 12 mile round-trip to work. It's these short trips that typically beat the tar out of an automobile; much more so than highway runs. So, I'm not only extending the life of the car by reducing the number of miles I put on it, but also by the type of miles.

[skully93]

It would be a lot cheaper if I could stop buying more scooters and gear every 5 minutes.....

The insurance alone is cheap. for both of us to goof off, go all over the state, and commute, it cost $30 in gas a month. 1 tank in the beetle is $45-$50.

I generally pay for my maintenance but do simple things like oil changes myself on the bike that isn't covered in the shop.

[robby]

If you can get a scooter in place of a car, the savings are pretty substantial.

In four years I drove 6,000 miles, spent $277.55 on parts, spent $196.99 on gas, and I'd estimate another $70 on oil. Add $300 for a helmet, lock and accessory lights to the $2000 OTD price, and I spent $2844.54 to go 6,0000 miles. At $0.47/mi, that's $0.03/mi below what the IRS estimates the average car costs to own.

Sadly for me, that's the end of my story because my scooter was stolen. But it had plenty of life left in it, and if I still had it, I expect I'd drive it at least another 14k miles with $800 in scheduled parts and $500 in scheduled gas. That would put me at $4144.54 over 20,000 miles, or about $0.20/mile. That cost would continue to drop if I logged more than 20k miles, which most people who are determined seem easily able to do on Genuines.

The two big caveats here are:
1) Owning a scooter in place of a car vs in addition to a car. You have to ride about 20k miles before you incur maintenance expenses that exceed the cost of a scooter, so the fixed cost is pretty substantial and you have a lot of ground to cover to make it up. If you use your scooter as your primary means of transit and save the car for ski trips, I imagine you could make this up -- but investing in a scooter for weekend grocery trips is a difficult justification, at least mathematically speaking.

2) I did all of my own work on my scooter. What one doesn't know can be easily learned on the internet and in most cases performed with inexpensive tools. Your scooter costs will be higher if you need to have it professionally maintained.

[gar1013]

Total cost of ownership over 6 months: 2315.32+ 5,280 miles/81.5mpg x $3.74/Gallon average over 6 months (91 octane)= $2557.62

Vs.

Total Cost of ownership over 6 months: $5230+5,280 miles/25.9mpg x $3.45/Gallon average over 6 months (89 octane)=$6851.32

There's a flaw in that analysis.

If you drove them off a cliff or blew them up, then yes.

You can't count the initial outlay without subtracting the residual value. The scooter has a much higher depreciation rate in this comparison.

Also, your insurance coverage comparison needs to be adjusted. Either like kind insurance, or you need to hit the scooter cost of ownership with a risk weighted adjustment for losses beyond what would have been covered by insurance (were they to happen)

Finally, for situations where the scooter simply won't be used: certain types of weather, errands, etc. you need to factor in the cost of replacement transportation - rental car, bus fare (with associated cost of time) or taxi fare.

I'd also posit that 6 months isn't the best time horizon to evaluate this over. Instead, you'd do it over the length of time one would keep the car. At that rate, you could actually end up incurring more significant expenses on scooter upkeep.

[Southerner]

As to insurance, my MC only costs me $12/mo. for full coverage, minus only collision, which is exorbitant. It's quite old but full-sized so I assume even a new scooter would be close to the same.

For me, valve adjustment would be the biggest bugbear. I'm not mechanically incompetent but would only attempt it after good instruction. I can already do fluid changes and I understand CVT belts aren't bad once one gets the hang of it. If it's no big deal, that would be considerable cost saving. Next I wonder how hard it is to mount tubeless tires. Surely easier for scooter wheels than for a MC? And I don't want to save pennies at the expense of safety.

Commute length is another issue. Currently I drive a 50 mile round trip to work. After a while, it gets less fun on the MC even though it's mostly a good country ride. In the winter, particularly as I have to start out before daylight, it can get pretty grueling. A commute of half that length would be more do-able and I would be less tempted to just get into the car.

I appreciate the input, especially as I see so many of you have put considerable effort into working it out. For me, as for many of you, a car + scooter solution seems the most practical route. Weather, as well as the need to sometimes haul other people and lots of stuff, preclude a scooter-only lifestyle for me.

[ericalm]

It really depends on your circumstances, but to a large degree (as mentioned above) replacing a car is the best way to make the numbers work. Most people ignore the numbers that aren't convenient.

First, MPG is pointless. Calculate Cost per Mile for fuel.

gar1013 was right on with mentioning depreciation. Also, you get a scooter and keep a car, you're then paying insurance and registration for a vehicle that's depreciating but that you're not driving.

People often say they're "saving" money by buying a scooter. They somehow think that spending $3K to save $50/month makes sense, but don't take into account how long it will take to recoup that $3K or the many additional costs along the way.

Are you financing or making payments either vehicle? You're losing more money, paying interest for something you';re not getting full benefit from.

While the more you ride, the more you save in fuel and some other measures, but it's also true that the more you ride, the more it costs you in maintenance and parts. And most scooters have far shorter lifespans than cars.

For cars, costs of ownership per year decreases as they age. For scooters, quite the opposite.

I'm probably saving money by commuting by scooter. But all the other riding I do certainly makes up for a lot of that! The only way I'm saving is doing my own basic maintenance.

[Stitch]

There is no way to make a direct comparison on such a broad question. The answer is different for situation.

[TVB]

For cars, costs of ownership per year decreases as they age. For scooters, quite the opposite.

How do you figure that? Either one is going to reach a point where its components are reaching the end of the lifespan they were engineered for, and start requiring replacement. It isn't a simple linear progression, but in the long run, the cost of keeping either a scooter or a car going will go up, to the point that it eventually becomes more cost effective to replace it.

[gar1013]

For cars, costs of ownership per year decreases as they age. For scooters, quite the opposite.

How do you figure that? Either one is going to reach a point where its components are reaching the end of the lifespan they were engineered for, and start requiring replacement. It isn't a simple linear progression, but in the long run, the cost of keeping either a scooter or a car going will go up, to the point that it eventually becomes more cost effective to replace it.

What Eric's probably getting at is that one of the biggest costs with a car is the depreciation. Buy the right car (anything built on the FordMoCo Panther platform, for example) and you can run it for several hundred thousand miles without needing anything major from a mechanical standpoint.

Bikes in general don't have the longevity of a modern automobile. I've ridden in cars with over 300k miles. I doubt you'll see any form of 2 wheel transport hit that mark without some major work being done.

[lovemysan]

What is depreciation? I bought my 09 buddy 125 with 3300 miles for $990. So far it hasn't needed any repairs in 2400 miles. Its been stone reliable except for me leaving the ignition on and killing the battery. I keep knocking the mirrors off too. My insurance is $18 per month which is a trivial amount of money, its full coverage with a tiny medical policy. I'm a semi skilled shade tree mechanic so I do my own service work. However...the scooter has become my modified vehicle. I started spending a 2-3 hundred every few months to improve it. So far I've done, heidenau k61s, LED lighting, NCY shock, 161cc kit, prima pipe, sliders. Its way cheaper than my previous fun vehicle. I used to pay $70 just for oil and filter on my dodge cummins.
I think it will be a long while before depreciation catches up.

[gar1013]

What is depreciation? I bought my 09 buddy 125 with 3300 miles for $990.

Depreciation = Purchase Price - Residual Value

The person you bought your bike from ate a good chunk of the depreciation. The MSRP on that bike was $3200, plus setup and registration, etc. Let's call that $500.

So OTD, the original owner would have paid about $3200. They sold it to you for $990. Excluding all other ownership costs, they spent $2,210 as a result of buying and selling the vehicle.

That comes out to $0.67 per mile BEFORE servicing, gas, etc.

Now, you might be tempted to say that cost doesn't apply to you, but it does. The economics of a vehicle depend on what the secondary market is for that vehicle.

The other thing is that you are cost cutting in ways that many others might not. If you have relatively small medical coverage in the event of an accident, you need to factor in the risk weighted economics of the gap between coverage and the various scenarios associated with injury. In addition, the typical person does not do their own service work... BUT if you do, then you also need to assign a cost to the time you spend doing that work. Your time has value, yes? If not, then I have a few errands that I'd rather have someone else do....

The other thing is that all the accesorizing you've done has a definite cost. The ROI on those items typically hovers at somewhere around minus 100%. Mods don't command a higher asking price unless you've done EXACTLY what someone else wants to do, and they have 100% trust in what has been done. You see this a lot in the HD and 4x4 world - people put in like $35k into their vehicle and thing it's somehow worth more than blue book for an unmodified vehicle.

The numbers for a scooter just plain don't work out unless you're talking about riding a negligable amount of miles, and you'll never need to worry about the weather or carrying anything larger than a breadbox. Even then, the economics for a motorcycle become very competitive to a scooter (if not more appealing).

So really, don't justify riding a scooter for the economics - a full and proper analysis won't hold water. Instead, justify it for the intangibles, such as fun, relaxation, simplicity, etc.

[TVB]

An accountant is someone who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

[gar1013]

An accountant is someone who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

Yeah, I hate those people!
(2 semesters of undergrad accounting was more than enough)

[cdwise]

It really depends on your needs. I have a friend who about 50% of the time needs his truck for work. Other times he just needs to get to work. He bought a Honda Ruckus for running errands and sometimes riding to work. He kept track of purchase price, gas, maintenance and insurance on both the scooter and the truck. His though when he bought the Ruckus was that he would recoup the cost of the Ruckus and its associated expenses in 24-28 months solely on the difference between riding the Ruckus and driving the truck over the that length of time. He was surprised to find that he had "saved" the cost of the Ruckus and all its associated maintenance/fuel/insurance costs in fuel and maintenance costs on the full size pick-up in 18 months. Okay, a large part of that was because the price of gas went up so much during the time period, also a small truck or car was not an option for him unless it was in addition to the full size pick-up.

Did he save money by buying the scoot - not really because he got so hooked he now owns multiple scoots including a pair of vintage Vespas and he travels to rallies. Somehow scoots went from a way to save some money to an addiction, something I'm sure nobody here can relate to.

[lovemysan]

Instead, justify it for the intangibles, such as fun, relaxation, simplicity, etc.

Exactly! Most people I know ride scooters for fun. I know a few people who use them as primary transportation but they still do it for fun. I was however implying that careful shopping can erase large portions of the depreciation. This requires patience and diligence that most people are not willing to commit to. Sometimes it requires some driving to.

[Southerner]

Well, it's gotts be cheaper to own several scoots than it is to own several cars!

[ericalm]

For cars, costs of ownership per year decreases as they age. For scooters, quite the opposite.

How do you figure that? Either one is going to reach a point where its components are reaching the end of the lifespan they were engineered for, and start requiring replacement. It isn't a simple linear progression, but in the long run, the cost of keeping either a scooter or a car going will go up, to the point that it eventually becomes more cost effective to replace it.

What Eric's probably getting at is that one of the biggest costs with a car is the depreciation. Buy the right car (anything built on the FordMoCo Panther platform, for example) and you can run it for several hundred thousand miles without needing anything major from a mechanical standpoint.

Bikes in general don't have the longevity of a modern automobile. I've ridden in cars with over 300k miles. I doubt you'll see any form of 2 wheel transport hit that mark without some major work being done.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012 ... /index.htm

More accurately, car costs decrease up to point X at which they start to gradually increase again. Scooter costs just go up and up!

[michelle_7728]

....More accurately, car costs decrease up to point X at which they start to gradually increase again. Scooter costs just go up and up!

This is true. However...you can pick up a good used scooter for $2,000-$3,000. A good used car, not so much.

I don't have all the numbers to go along with this that some of you have put in your posts, so I can't begin to comment with any authority on any of that, but I will say that I purchased my 2004 Corolla new in '03, and thanks to putting all of my off hours mileage on scooters, it still has just at 52,000 miles on it.

The scooters I've had since 2009 have come close to the cost of that car when it was new (actually, probably over it, after maintenance, accessories, and gear):
$3,400 for my first Buddy (new)
$2,000 for my next Buddy (used, w/ 80 miles on it)
$ 500 for parts and panels to rebuild my first Buddy
$1,500 for my Yamaha Majesty (traded my 2nd Buddy & cash for it)
$4,700 for my used MP3 250 (yeah...a bit high...from a dealer)
$2,500 for my used MP3 500 (traded my Majesty and $ for it)
$2,400 for my 3rd Buddy (new, but on clearance)
$ 0 for my "new" 2008 Scarabeo (new old stock from a dealer) because I bought it with proceeds from the sale of my MP3 500...even had money from that sale left over after buying my new topcase.

What does this prove? Absolutely nothing...it's even not exactly relevant to the conversation, but yikes, I'm glad I've got the scooters I want to keep now...trying different bikes to find the right fit (in a bigger bike) has been a bit pricey, even with the trading to get in to them a little more cheaply!

Scooters can be an expensive "hobby"...

[Howardr]

Whenever people talk to me about the scooter, they almost always add the "You must be saving TONS of money." Additionally, when people seriously inquire about buying a scooter, i rarely use the "saving money" line

I love my scooters. I believe my first may be the best purchase I have ever made, but i don't know that I save any money. I ride a LOT, so maintenance costs are considerable for me. I will ride 100 miles just to get a piece of pie, i would never do that in the cage.

Here is what I do know:
* New cars can go 7500 miles or more between oil changes. Those oil changes, done at a Jiffy Lube, or similar place, cost about what it costs me to change my own oil and I will do 3-4 changes before the new car does one. I ride 10,000 or so miles per year.
* I don't buy top of the line tires for my car. They cost the same or less, per tire, than the ones on my scooters. They will last much longer (10-15 times longer.) than the tires on my scooter. I need 2-3 tire changes per year.

Those two items alone, seem to negate the fuel and insurance savings, FOR ME. But, I don't ride to save money. I ride because I love it. I don't care what the cost. It makes me happy and it makes me a better person to be around. I love the people I have met because I ride.

Scooters are worth every penny. For the record, i have never actually calculated all the above costs and made a car to scooter comparison.

Howard

[climbguy]

I live in Washington DC, and one major cost issue I don't see here is parking.

I have an off street spot behind my house. I rent it out to a neighbor for $100/month and there is still space for me to park my Buddy 170i off street.

I am an IT consultant, and frequently have to go visit clients down town. Parking could cost $15 or more at any given garage. Even if I could find a meter parking could cost $4 to $5 depending on how long i am there.

The same goes for taking the scooter to concerts, fair grounds, sporting events ect. Many of the places around here, Wolf Trap, Merriweather Post Pavilion, FedEx Field, ect charge for parking too.

[Dooglas]

Since scooters are simpler and have single cylinder motors, I would expect them to better a large motorcycle considerably but I wonder how much more economical a scooter is than a small car, such as a Fit or similar.

Others have done a good job of responding to your scooter vs. car inquiry. I question your motorcycle vs. scooter conclusion though. Most of us that ride scooters do so because we like their riding characterisitcs, not because they are cheaper to operate than small to medium sized motorcycles. Because of their small wheels, scooters generally go through tires faster than motorcycles. Also, CVT transmissions in modern scooters use belts and rollers at a fairly rapid rate. The geared manual transmission and chain, belt, or shaft final drive on a motorcycle requires less maintenance and the components last longer. (now, if you are comparing a scooter to a Harley )

[Southerner]

The economy aspect is still a logical question but the answers are usually that the gap is surprisingly slight.

It appears that the most truly economical 2-wheelers are conventional single-cylinder bikes like the type now called "dualsports". And this is said to be partly because rubber costs are comparatively low. Maybe that's why the British used them for so long.

Not sure why inquiries about economy seem to generate negative reactions. Nobody demands we justify our choices about this. Some of us are just curious.

[scootERIK]

Ran some quick numbers and my current scooter has cost me about 20 cents a mile to operate, and that is if I don't factor in resale value. So my cost per mile would go down if I sold the scooter.

My car gets 27 mpgs so at $3.50 a gallon it costs about 13 cents a mile just for gas.

So for me it is fairly cheap to own a scooter. But I try to do all my own repairs and upkeep, and I ride a decent amount of miles a year. Also, I buy used.

[BuddyRaton]

Well...it FEELS cheaper. I spend about $20 a day less taking my scooter to work than taking my truck. At that rate it takes about 30 weeks of commuting to break even on purchase.

My truck is paid for, is rare, has bottomed out and is now on the upcurve as far as value. So I must be saving right! Well there is insurance, gear, tires, gear, oil, gear.

So what is the upside? Tomorrow I get to take a 330 mile round trip to Cocoa Beach, get paid my salary and mileage to ride. Life is good.

Oh yeah...running the CBR saved me a ton of dough!

[TVB]

All I know* is that in the 4+ years that I've had my scooter, I've spent more on repairs, maintenance, and fuel for the car that I drive 2000 miles/year, than I have for repairs, maintenance, fuel, and purchase of the scooter that I ride 4500 miles/year. Much of that difference is due the fact that my car is at the part of its lifecycle at which we put humans into nursing care or set them out on an ice floe... but the cost comparison is still interesting.

*Not really. I'm just saying that for rhetorical purposes.

[Southerner]

Well, all that sounds pretty economical. Repair and maintenance costs, particularly stuff like valve adjustments, have to represent a big chunk of costs on any properly maintained scoot or mc.

[peabody99]

Getting scooters used is a huge saver. The only only one I bought new was my 06 buddy which was a lemon and at 2000 miles was replaced by genuine with a new 07, which I still have and had been flawless! My GTS and helix were both bought used with cash and almost no miles (helix had 5!). Unfortunetely, most people finance or lease cars and this really adds up especially if you have a scooter on the side. Ideally a couple will go car light and share a car and a scooter. We've been car light for 7 years! Last year we put 1500 miles on the car....10,000 ++ on the scoots...problem is I have, well a problem, and have 3 scooters which destoys scooter math

Regardless, the therapeutic value is huge and its impossible to put a price on it. Not to be crass, but when I'm off the scooter, it reminds me of PMS.

[PeteH]

Sigh. I'm largely back in the car starting Wednesday, as I start back driving my youngun to school. Shame The Mrs. won't let him ride on the back.

[JHScoot]

don't know about motorcycles but scooters are cheap to maintain if you do even some of your own maintenance. as said on a scooter it really is fairly simple if the manufacturer didn't go muck it up to begin with what with plastics, special tools, and hard to get to components. and while a motorcycle can cost as much as a small car even a shiny new Vespa 300 won't come near that cost, typically.

so "buy in" does matter imo. and if service intervals are a concern a combo of two or three low cost or used scooters and MC's should do you fine. you can still pay LESS then ONE new, crappy subcompact car and cut your service intervals, cost, and down time spent on all your bikes by using them as equally as you can. i have had two scooters for almost a year now and it gives me pleasure to ride one as the other rests, tires wearing thin. i will get 'em done....whenever

it is true cars run very reliable and with little needed maintenance these days. but with typical new car prices at $25,000+ (that would buy more then a few scooters and bikes), insurance, fuel, and $600 tire swaps when they do come due (compared to $200 every 10,000 miles or so for a scooter) i would say scooters and bikes win the cost savings hands down

but as said....you gotta ride and give up the car, really. if cost or saving is a factor. not a reality for many. luckily for some, it is

[Rusty Shackleford]

Many of us have found the combination of an old cage and an inexpensive bike to be a winning combination.

• Me: Honda CBR250R + Jeep with a broken AC and mismatched tires for rainy/freezing days.
• My lady: Genuine Buddy 125 + compact car also with broken AC and mismatched tires for rainy/freezing days.

We love to ride, but sometimes it rains, and sometimes there's ice on the ground.