NBR am I the only one that didn't know about new Cushmans?

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:35 am

mattgordon wrote:
peabody99 wrote:...don't feel the need to go out of your way to satisfy the curiousity of a few scooter stalkers
Fixed that for you....

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:53 am

still shifting wrote:Well maybe it has buckets of torque? R

Below is the dyno sheet for the Subaru EX27D (Thanks, Syd!) from the Subaru site. From what I can tell, it does appear to have good torque. The horsepower is the same as a Buddy 125 at 9 horsepower. I don't know the Buddy 125's torque number. Does anybody have it handy? Compared to the benchmark modern Vespa, the GTS250ie, the torque is close to being on par at 18.3 Newton-Meters vs the Vespa's 20.2 Newton-Meters. On the other hand, the GTS250ie is the hands-down winner with 22 HP vs 9 for the Highlander.

I knew somebody would gig me (rightly so) if I compared a number from an engine dyno with a number from a chassis dyno. The Vespa number AFAIK is the engine dyno number published by Piaggio. The actual chassis dyno number for the Vespa GTS250ie's horsepower is ~15.3 HP. So, I've thought about it and tried to compare published engine dyno numbers here for an apples-to-apples comparison. I was just trying to get a feeling for where the Highlander might fall on the performance spectrum.

In the vintage Cushman scene, the hot setup is the 18 HP Briggs & Stratton Vanguard power plant. It remains to be seen if that motor will fit into a Cushman II, but I would be willing to bet neotrotsky's $20 that somebody will try it. That would definitely move the whole plot along a lot faster, but probably test the limits of the the suspension. That, I suppose, is a topic for a future ModernCushman.com thread.

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:55 am

One other thing I meant to note is the Cushman II Highlander's seat height. Did any of you watch the video of the small woman (attempting to) ride the Highlander out of the K-Jack parking lot? She cannot reach the ground. She's obviously a bit vertically challenged, but you can see for yourself that K-Jack have run smack into the problem that Piaggio wrestled with mightily when they scaled up the Vespa. Piaggio solved the problem with a contoured seat that allows the rider to put their legs almost straight down but that seat makes the rider feel like they are sliding forward off the seat when they slow down. K-Jack have made no attempt to contour the seat. It just looks like shorter riders are out of luck. See my grab from the K-Jack video below.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:47 pm

Syd wrote:Subaru Robin engine? Yes indeed, it looks, by the specs posted by jrsjr, to be the Subaru Robin EX27D engine. The Robin is supposed to be a very good small industrial engine. Generally that means long life; note that max hp, which is only 9hp, is reached at a relatively low 4000rpm. It's an interesting project even if it is ugly as all get out; I hope they succeed in spite of themselves.

Ugly is an understatement. I know personal opinions that don't mesh with the majority aren't always popular with some on here, but the thing looks as bad as the original. It looks like something some redneck bodged together from unused farm equipment in a shed. I never saw the appeal of the things... but, I know some people around here in Arizona LOVE them simply because they're made in America, no matter what the quality may be.

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:25 pm

OK lets give this a chance maybe, Ugly is after all a question of taste and interpretation. And I agree it is a design to, well get used to... I thought it was ugly the first time I saw one in the Eisenhower administration. I couldn't afford one then nor can I now but I sure would like to see and ride one. And maybe, just maybe this company and product will surprise us...? Also I like it's angular ugly looks. R

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:50 pm

still shifting wrote:OK lets give this a chance maybe, Ugly is after all a question of taste and interpretation. And I agree it is a design to, well get used to... I thought it was ugly the first time I saw one in the Eisenhower administration. I couldn't afford one then nor can I now but I sure would like to see and ride one. And maybe, just maybe,this company and product will surprise us...? Also I like it's angular ugly looks. R

Agreed! Plus I really like the looks of the "Step Through" model. I owned a BMW motorcycle. I can deal with a little ugly. In fact, putting a cantankerous old fart like me on a slick gorgeous Italian scooter is an insult to the scooter!

I hope K-Jack will get that Step Through bike into production.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:39 pm

The Eagle would be the only one that I would be interested in. The other two don't offend me but then I saw a lot of them when I was a kid.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:06 pm

Looks aside, I just can't see the market for these at $5K or thereabouts. I mean, if all I wanted was a grocery-getter (which is what these look like to me) I'd be more inclined to pick up a 50 or 150cc China scoot (heresy, I know), put a coupla hundred into it to make it passable, and pocket the rest. At these prices, I'd want something more for my money.

And it ain't about the ugly factor - remember, I ride a Helix.

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:33 pm

charlie55 wrote:Looks aside, I just can't see the market for these at $5K or thereabouts. I mean, if all I wanted was a grocery-getter (which is what these look like to me) I'd be more inclined to pick up a 50 or 150cc China scoot (heresy, I know), put a coupla hundred into it to make it passable, and pocket the rest. At these prices, I'd want something more for my money.

And it ain't about the ugly factor - remember, I ride a Helix.

These started out near that $5k range and have come down a bit in price since their inital introduction. http://www.californiascooterco.com/
Cushman will likely be competing for the same buyers as the person who buys these...nobody Ive ever met though I know they have some of these on the road.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:34 pm

Alright so I have scoop. I called west valley cycle and spoke to John. They have the Highlander on the floor in yellow, powder blue, and red. top speed 45 mph....forgot to ask price. This is the 9hp, 265 cc.

They had the step through (which John called the "deluxe" , and later the "turtle" ) but they had to send it back to KJack for some inspection which went fine and they are expecting them back at any time. It is a 404cc, 14hp engine and will go 65-75 mph. This one will cost about $5000.

The Eagle is expected later this year, will retail around $6000 will have the same engine, but for some reason it will go faster?

Custom colors easily done on all.
The Sheriffs office has an order in for 35 black and white for patrolling stuff and crowd control, didn't ask which model. They have already picked up the first one.

All U.S made except Subaru engine and he mentioned BMW rear brake. front brake is a "broom brake".

It's CVT, but then he said 2 speed...didn't want to explore further and expose my ignorance.

This is the only dealer right now. Gently asked how they were going to promote and they said they had barely gotten to that. They mentioned taking it to a car show not long ago. I suggested getting it out there in the scooter community, and recommended they show up at swerves and curves rally this weekend, even sent him a link! I really got the feeling the gentleman I spoke to was not as familiar with the scoot community as the motorcycle one. I hope they get some help.

Oh and finally they are also going to have a 3 wheeler called a "truckster"

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:45 pm

peabody99 wrote:Alright so I have scoop. I called west valley cycle and spoke to John. They have the Highlander on the floor in yellow, powder blue, and red. top speed 45 mph....forgot to ask price. This is the 9hp, 265 cc.

They had the step through (which John called the "deluxe" , and later the "turtle" ) but they had to send it back to KJack for some inspection which went fine and they are expecting them back at any time. It is a 404cc, 14hp engine and will go 65-75 mph. This one will cost about $5000.

The Eagle is expected later this year, will retail around $6000 will have the same engine, but for some reason it will go faster?

Custom colors easily done on all.
The Sheriffs office has an order in for 35 black and white for patrolling stuff and crowd control, didn't ask which model. They have already picked up the first one.

All U.S made except Subaru engine and he mentioned BMW rear brake. front brake is a "broom brake".

It's CVT, but then he said 2 speed...didn't want to explore further and expose my ignorance.

This is the only dealer right now. Gently asked how they were going to promote and they said they had barely gotten to that. They mentioned taking it to a car show not long ago. I suggested getting it out there in the scooter community, and recommended they show up at swerves and curves rally this weekend, even sent him a link! I really got the feeling the gentleman I spoke to was not as familiar with the scoot community as the motorcycle one. I hope they get some help.

Oh and finally they are also going to have a 3 wheeler called a "truckster"

Website lists Brembo brakes....could you have misunderstood him on that?

I recommended get a booth at AV back in Dec. or January when I initially spoke to them.

You HAVE to market any product....

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:54 pm

I'm quite sure I misunderstood about the brakes!

ravenlore · Post by **ravenlore** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:59 pm

jrsjr wrote:... Piaggio solved the problem with a contoured seat that allows the rider to put their legs almost straight down but that seat makes the rider feel like they are sliding forward off the seat when they slow down...

You mean it's not just me?!? For the last six months I had thought it was because of exacerbated compression of the foam seat...but it's actually a common issue?

<end threadjack>

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:14 am

Thank You peabody99 I am glad to get the facts as we know them. R

wheelbender6 · Post by **wheelbender6** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:34 am

The rights to many vintage marques have been purchased and revived, like Triumph motorcycles. The Whizzer motorized bicycle is another example.
If the new Cushmans cost five grand, I would probably rather get a used Buell Blast for my American made bike. If the Cushman price is reasonable, I'd love to get one and hotrod the crap out of it with go cart racing engine parts.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:52 am

The gentleman I talked to on the phone seemed to imply they could be really jacked up, but made a point of saying " after you buy it, of course"

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:54 am

ravenlore wrote:
jrsjr wrote:... Piaggio solved the problem with a contoured seat that allows the rider to put their legs almost straight down but that seat makes the rider feel like they are sliding forward off the seat when they slow down...
You mean it's not just me?!? For the last six months I had thought it was because of exacerbated compression of the foam seat...but it's actually a common issue?

It's definitely not just you. The velvet anvil was always problematical for anybody who sits on the front of the seat. Front brake wedgie, anybody?

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:28 am

peabody99 wrote:Alright so I have scoop. I called west valley cycle and spoke to John. They have the Highlander on the floor in yellow, powder blue, and red. top speed 45 mph....forgot to ask price. This is the 9hp, 265 cc.

They had the step through (which John called the "deluxe" , and later the "turtle" ) but they had to send it back to KJack for some inspection which went fine and they are expecting them back at any time. It is a 404cc, 14hp engine and will go 65-75 mph. This one will cost about $5000.

The Eagle is expected later this year, will retail around $6000 will have the same engine, but for some reason it will go faster?

Custom colors easily done on all.
The Sheriffs office has an order in for 35 black and white for patrolling stuff and crowd control, didn't ask which model. They have already picked up the first one.

All U.S made except Subaru engine and he mentioned BMW rear brake. front brake is a "broom brake".

It's CVT, but then he said 2 speed...didn't want to explore further and expose my ignorance.

This is the only dealer right now. Gently asked how they were going to promote and they said they had barely gotten to that. They mentioned taking it to a car show not long ago. I suggested getting it out there in the scooter community, and recommended they show up at swerves and curves rally this weekend, even sent him a link! I really got the feeling the gentleman I spoke to was not as familiar with the scoot community as the motorcycle one. I hope they get some help.

Oh and finally they are also going to have a 3 wheeler called a "truckster"

Thank you for making the call! You made my day.

Truckster?!?

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:31 am

Good point, wheelbender6. I had a Velo Solex and a Whizzer in the late 40's and early 50's.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:33 am

PS: The Velo Solex is still in production.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:46 am

Jrsjr, they said the truckster will be an exact remake of an old postal car that Cushman made, with one wheel in the front.

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:54 am

Am the only forum member with a deep desire for an old style 3 wheeler? R

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 am

still shifting wrote:Am the only forum member with a deep desire for an old style 3 wheeler? R

I want a red one. Vroom! Vroom! From the Hobbytech.com page devoted to Truckster pictures...

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:05 am

You can have any color your heart desires, or so John tells me

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:59 am

Boxy and butt ugly...true, so where the originals, that's what made them cool....
Now, could one of the new ones work on the scooter cannonball? They always reminded me of those minibikes we had as kids, or ranch toys..street legal, why not?

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:41 am

EvilNerdLord wrote:Now, could one of the new ones work on the scooter cannonball?

No, the Cannonball rules exclude anything with a motor displacing more than 250cc.

EvilNerdLord · Post by **EvilNerdLord** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:35 am

I seen that at their website, i thinking the boxy butt ugliness and the wheels looking even smaller than 10's.....8's? Could it do the Distances? It just doesn't have a distance mojo aura....more like a willy jeep feel.
Stll, I'd love to visit a dealer and have a look.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:49 am

The Truckster might be interesting if it has a big enough engine to be street
useful and could be licensed and insured as such. Guess time will tell.

RoaringTodd · Post by **RoaringTodd** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:41 am

I struggle to wrap my head around the fact that a scooter with a 265 cc will go as fast as my Honda Elite 80cc... The same for the 404cc - not much faster than a Buddy 170i.

What am I missing here?

Alright so I have scoop. I called west valley cycle and spoke to John. They have the Highlander on the floor in yellow, powder blue, and red. top speed 45 mph....forgot to ask price. This is the 9hp, 265 cc.

They had the step through (which John called the "deluxe" , and later the "turtle" ) but they had to send it back to KJack for some inspection which went fine and they are expecting them back at any time. It is a 404cc, 14hp engine and will go 65-75 mph. This one will cost about $5000.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:53 am

RoaringTodd wrote:I struggle to wrap my head around the fact that a scooter with a 265 cc will go as fast as my Honda Elite 80cc... The same for the 404cc - not much faster than a Buddy 170i.

What am I missing here?

I suspect you are of the mindset that dispacement equals speed.....an easy trap to fall into.
The engine is a 'Light Industrial' type....likely not designed for RPM's exceeding 4000....same as a lawnmower or snowblower design.
These make very good torque throughout the RPM range.....torque= how rapidly can the crankshaft accelerate......horsepower generally equals the ability to maintain high rpm under load.
So, in this case, it would accelerate about the same with or without reasonable load and likely would tug a sidecar quite well.
But top speed will be limited by the engines 'High Torque, Low RPM' design.

Hope that helped a bit.
Rob

Alright so I have scoop. I called west valley cycle and spoke to John. They have the Highlander on the floor in yellow, powder blue, and red. top speed 45 mph....forgot to ask price. This is the 9hp, 265 cc.

They had the step through (which John called the "deluxe" , and later the "turtle" ) but they had to send it back to KJack for some inspection which went fine and they are expecting them back at any time. It is a 404cc, 14hp engine and will go 65-75 mph. This one will cost about $5000.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:02 pm

Lets not cal them ugly, lets call the utilitarian. Means the same thing but
in a more sophisticated manner.

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:10 pm

EvilNerdLord wrote:I seen that at their website, i thinking the boxy butt ugliness and the wheels looking even smaller than 10's.....8's? Could it do the Distances? It just doesn't have a distance mojo aura....more like a willy jeep feel.
Stll, I'd love to visit a dealer and have a look.

at present that would be "the" dealer.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:18 pm

Just took a look at the Eagle prototype shown on Facebook. Not as attractive as the original by any means and the engine looks totally out of place, a big
BA bad boy of an engine. If it is 18hp then this Eagle will fly at least for a
little while. I like it but it does need some refinements done. Keep in mind that it is a prototype. Engine will be easy to get to and work on, a plus.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:46 pm

Wolfhound wrote:Just took a look at the Eagle prototype shown on Facebook. Not as attractive as the original by any means and the engine looks totally out of place, a big
BA bad boy of an engine. If it is 18hp then this Eagle will fly at least for a
little while. I like it but it does need some refinements done. Keep in mind that it is a prototype. Engine will be easy to get to and work on, a plus.

And how long has the "prototype" been in pre-production?

It looks like a glorified lawn mower, and like it will handle worse. The price is insane for what it is and there is no word on if this thing will even be a reality beyond a few people.

Vaporware.

Just like Elio motors, the long-rumored "cheap" iPhone, the Dodge Demon and all of those states who said they would secede in 2012: All talk but no results.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:13 pm

I recall checking into that place and IIRC, it got started because the owner had ridden Cushmans years ago and wanted to start reproducing them. They have been just over the horizon for a very long time now.

If anybody sees any, let me know.

The HP does indeed seem low but having ridden more than one EZ-Go, I can tell you the things seem surprisingly powerful. Not especially fast but that's as much a function of the CVT as anything else. Can haul 2 large adults and as much junk as can be loaded without a whimper.

I get the feeling that they are earnestly trying to get this thing going but as others have opined, they a clueless as to how and/or have funding difficulties.

I would certainly LIKE to see this work.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:38 pm

Been cruising the IN in search of 3 wheeled scoots and cars. There is a gazillion of them out these simular to the Elio(sp) and most of them appear, and then are never heard from again. Poor business models, poor market research, poorly made. My point here is that I hope the Cushman II makes it and I hope the Elio does too. But I will believe it when I see it. I am ever the pessimist.