On the dis-economy of two-wheeling.

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Southerner
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On the dis-economy of two-wheeling.

Post by Southerner »

This may not apply so much to scooters.

I finally had a puncture on my Honda motorcycle. Nothing happened on the road; instead, I noticed a low tire while it was parked and found a screw sticking in the back tire. No mc shop around here will repair a flat. Period. "Too much liability" they say. Can't blame 'em in this lawsuit-happy country.

But now I have no solution but to buy a new rear tire. It's gonna cost about 250 bucks. That's about what I paid Pep Boys for the two new fronts on my car, mounted and balanced. Plus, if one of them gets a flat, anybody will fix it. Plus, said tires will last about 3 times as long, at least.

Oh, well......
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Post by Robbie »

Back before I retired I ran a Honda Mcy. dealers service dept.
Obviously this discusson occured two or three times a week.
But, I took the time to better explain 'Insurance Liability and Tire prices'

Here's the deal.
A motorcycle (or scooter) tire has a huge amount of flex.
Its profile is round because the machine must lean to corner.
However, the tires contact patch must flatten for best traction.....otherwise the contact patch would only e a quarter inch wide and long.
Two things can occur with a patched or plugged tire.....because of the cord flexing, the cut strands abraid and ultimately can cut a plug in two....the tire spits the plug and because the hole has been enlarged to accept the plug the deflation is almost as fast as a blowout......I'm sure you would then (if you survived) like to rip the head off the guy that plugged it.
The other alternative, a patch installed after tire removal, sounds good but due to the flexing mentioned above the patch will eventually delaminate from the tire carcass.....similar results but not as instantanious....it just goes flat, again......hopefully while parked.

So, because of these known risks, the insurance companies that underwrite dealer service departments degreed no coverage if the lawsuit is the result of a repaired tire.
I hope that is a reasonable explanation.

Regarding tire prices.
A combination of things makes for the high price.
Starting with sheer numbers, auto tires are comparitively inexpensive.
Every car has four (or five) so the manufacturers can amitorize costs over millions of pieces.
Not so with bikes.....especially because very few even have the same size tire at each end.....so the numbers are quite low, expense is high,
But the other reason expense is high is bike tires have a very high rejection rate.
Bike tires, specifically the belting are very close to being hand made, not unlike a ZR rated tire as found on a performance car, like Vette or SRT8 Dodge and, those things run about $250.00 each......sound familiar?

So, motorcycle tires must be very close to perfect balance when made...so to ZR type performance tires.
They also can have no allowable runnout....its round or rejected.

I know how hard it is comparing basic auto tires to bike tires....we are a price per pound society.....we look at a bike tire, remember the price of the car tire and, not knowing there is a tremendous amount of construction difference, are sure this is some kind of rop off.

I have four cars with high performance (expensive) tires.....for me it is fairly easy to understand.
I hope my response helps you and if it did, please explain to others why the disparity exists.

Rob

BTW....can't plug or patch high perf tires either.....well, you can but then the speed rating becomes 95 mph.
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Re: On the dis-economy of two-wheeling.

Post by skipper20 »

Southerner wrote:This may not apply so much to scooters.

I finally had a puncture on my Honda motorcycle. Nothing happened on the road; instead, I noticed a low tire while it was parked and found a screw sticking in the back tire. No mc shop around here will repair a flat. Period. "Too much liability" they say. Can't blame 'em in this lawsuit-happy country.

But now I have no solution but to buy a new rear tire. It's gonna cost about 250 bucks. That's about what I paid Pep Boys for the two new fronts on my car, mounted and balanced. Plus, if one of them gets a flat, anybody will fix it. Plus, said tires will last about 3 times as long, at least.

Oh, well......
Repairing a puncture in a tire involves plugging it. I had a flat rear tire in my '87 Honda Helix 250 scooter about 2 years ago. Same as you I found a large metal screw puncturing the tread. I pulled it out and plugged the hole with my M/C tire plugging kit which I carried in the Helix's trunk. I didn't have to use the CO2 inflator, which is part of the kit, to inflate the tire as it all happened in my garage and I used my portable air compressor instead. But, I wasn't sure if a plugged tire was a safe tire (it still had a lot of tread left) so after putting a few miles on the plugged tire I bought a replacement and had my local independent M/C repair shop install it. It was a Pirelli SL26 which came from BikeBandit and with shipping, it was less than $60.00. The shop charged me one hour for R&R labor so the whole thing came to about $150. If any others on this forum have had experience with tires that have been plugged, perhaps they'll chime in and give us an idea as to just how long a plugged tire will last and will it be a safe tire. BTW, welcome to the forum. You'll learn a lot here and if you replace that Honda M/C with a scooter, you won't be disappointed with a Genuine Scooter whether it's a Buddy or a Blur. I have both!

Bill in Seattle
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Southerner
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Post by Southerner »

Oh, I understand the reasons why they have to cost more. I certainly don't want less-than-perfect tires when I depend on only two to hold me off the ground. I've ridden one sort or other of mc for about 40 years now.

It's just that it's hard to justify my bike to my family and strained budget as my economical backup transport when (for very good reasons, as you have explained) the car costs the same or, in some cases, less, to operate.

Seen from a distance, it's counterintuitive but true nonetheless.

A scooter can indeed be a less-expensive alternative but even scoots and the tires they are shod with vary.. I'm actually kinda interested in that upcoming Roughouse 170 but don't know how well I'd enjoy a 50 mile round trip commute on it.

No accusations here; just a lament.
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Post by Lostmycage »

Robbie wrote:Back before I retired I ran a Honda Mcy. dealers service dept.
Obviously this discusson occured two or three times a week.
But, I took the time to better explain 'Insurance Liability and Tire prices'

Here's the deal.
A motorcycle (or scooter) tire has a huge amount of flex.
Its profile is round because the machine must lean to corner.
However, the tires contact patch must flatten for best traction.....otherwise the contact patch would only e a quarter inch wide and long.
Two things can occur with a patched or plugged tire.....because of the cord flexing, the cut strands abraid and ultimately can cut a plug in two....the tire spits the plug and because the hole has been enlarged to accept the plug the deflation is almost as fast as a blowout......I'm sure you would then (if you survived) like to rip the head off the guy that plugged it.
The other alternative, a patch installed after tire removal, sounds good but due to the flexing mentioned above the patch will eventually delaminate from the tire carcass.....similar results but not as instantanious....it just goes flat, again......hopefully while parked.

So, because of these known risks, the insurance companies that underwrite dealer service departments degreed no coverage if the lawsuit is the result of a repaired tire.
I hope that is a reasonable explanation.

Regarding tire prices.
A combination of things makes for the high price.
Starting with sheer numbers, auto tires are comparitively inexpensive.
Every car has four (or five) so the manufacturers can amitorize costs over millions of pieces.
Not so with bikes.....especially because very few even have the same size tire at each end.....so the numbers are quite low, expense is high,
But the other reason expense is high is bike tires have a very high rejection rate.
Bike tires, specifically the belting are very close to being hand made, not unlike a ZR rated tire as found on a performance car, like Vette or SRT8 Dodge and, those things run about $250.00 each......sound familiar?

So, motorcycle tires must be very close to perfect balance when made...so to ZR type performance tires.
They also can have no allowable runnout....its round or rejected.

I know how hard it is comparing basic auto tires to bike tires....we are a price per pound society.....we look at a bike tire, remember the price of the car tire and, not knowing there is a tremendous amount of construction difference, are sure this is some kind of rop off.

I have four cars with high performance (expensive) tires.....for me it is fairly easy to understand.
I hope my response helps you and if it did, please explain to others why the disparity exists.

Rob

BTW....can't plug or patch high perf tires either.....well, you can but then the speed rating becomes 95 mph.
Thank you for this very informative post! That makes a lot of sense.
Check out :arrow: Scoot Richmond's new site: My awesome local shop.
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Dooglas
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Post by Dooglas »

It is really your call. Assuming we are talking about a tubeless tire - you can plug it yourself if you wish. Or you can replace it with a new tire. Motorcycles/scooters run on just those two small strips of rubber so most of us are fairly cautious when it comes time to repair/replace one of them.

(though, since this is a scooter website, I guess I have to say that there isn't a scooter around that uses a tire that costs $250 - at least as far as I know :wink: )
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Post by Throwback7R »

I know tires can cost more or less. the install is really what is more expensive . That is why I learned how to change my own tires. Unlike a car you can change your own tires. I just put a rear tire on my scooter that was 40$ and for my SUV I am in need of tires they are over 650$ my SUV gets 19 to the gal mixed use and my scooter gets 60-70 the scooter parts are cheap and easy to fix" at least for me" Don't forget insurance as well. I pay around 600 a year for my SUV and my scooter AND bike are 105 a year.

The scooter and bike save me almost what I paid for them so far.
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Post by SonnyD »

Hardly anyone in my area will plug car tires either.....maybe some little small gas station somewhere, but not the big places...I've bought many a motorcycle tire in my almost 50 years of riding, and they have always been expensive.. I've also never trusted my life to cheap motorcycle tires, car tires, I don't worry about, but bike tires, if you have a problem, good chance you are going to have some issues. If you don't your lucky.... Bike tires to me are "just the cost of doing business"
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Robbie wrote:Back before I retired I ran a Honda Mcy. dealers service dept.
Obviously this discusson occured ,or three times a week.
But, I took the time to better explain 'Insurance Liability and Tire prices'
Very interesting insight. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Rob
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Post by Southerner »

Throwback7R wrote:I know tires can cost more or less. the install is really what is more expensive . That is why I learned how to change my own tires. Unlike a car you can change your own tires. I just put a rear tire on my scooter that was 40$ and for my SUV I am in need of tires they are over 650$ my SUV gets 19 to the gal mixed use and my scooter gets 60-70 the scooter parts are cheap and easy to fix" at least for me" Don't forget insurance as well. I pay around 600 a year for my SUV and my scooter AND bike are 105 a year.

The scooter and bike save me almost what I paid for them so far.
I might try mounting a scooter tire. Not willing to trust myself to mount a tubeless tire on a motorcycle.
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Post by Stinkdyr »

My 2009 RH50 got its rear tire punctured by a sharp piece of PVC. I pushed it inside the tire, since it would not come out. Then I plugged the tire with a $6 kit from AutoZone. Works just fine a year later. Holds air no problem.
Not sure if I would do it on a larger bike, but on a 50cc scooter, I am confident.
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Post by ericalm »

Stinkdyr wrote:My 2009 RH50 got its rear tire punctured by a sharp piece of PVC. I pushed it inside the tire, since it would not come out. Then I plugged the tire with a $6 kit from AutoZone. Works just fine a year later. Holds air no problem.
Not sure if I would do it on a larger bike, but on a 50cc scooter, I am confident.
It can work well on any vehicle depending on the puncture and how well the plug is inserted. I've plugged two car tires this way and they held for years.

BUT, if the sidewall is damaged, forget it. I had a screw go through a scooter tire diagonally and puncture it twice. What a pain!
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Post by Milt »

Throwback7R,

What is your procedure and what tools does that procedure require for 10" tubeless scooter tires?

Thanks,
Milt
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Post by Dooglas »

Milt wrote:........what tools does that procedure require for 10" tubeless scooter tires?
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/mo ... QgodT3UAng

Tire plugging kits are certainly a great idea to carry along when riding for anyone running tubeless tires, even if you only choose to use them for temporary fixes.
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Post by Milt »

Thanks, I'm also interested in replacing tires myself - I got the impression from 'Throwback' that he does that, himself...
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Post by TVB »

A purely non-scientific anecdotal observation about the economics of scooters vs. cars:

Today I picked up both my scooter and my car from their respective shops. The scooter needed a top-end rebuild, the first major repair in its 5-year life. The car needed a new starter, just the latest in a series of repairs in its 10-year life. The scooter cost me $300 to fix, which is by far the most I've ever spent on that. The car cost me $600, which is not.
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A few relevant factors, IMO

Post by RexM »

TVB's anecdote touches on some relevant factors, I think.

Scooters are cheaper overall to repair than cars. I emphasize repair to differentiate between things that go wrong requiring repairs and routine service and consumables. In that regard my experience has been the same as TVB's: for two 10+ year old cars we spend about $1,000 each per year on repairs.

We all know gas and insurance are cheaper for scooters, but the scooter isn't free, so it only saves money overall if I ride it enough to cut gas and repair costs on the cars equal to the cost of the scooter (however you want to figure that). I think the scooter is presently a net gain, but it's a close call and I don't have the data to say for sure. If I can use the scooter to substantially delay the time at which I will have to replace one of the old cars, then so much the better. At this point, that seems likely as I have cut my driving to 1-2 days per week compared to 5, and if that car died completely the scooter would allow us to get by for some time without replacing the car. In that regard, the scooter also provides an intangible benefit of peace of mind knowing we could get by (with a few inconveniences) with 1 car + scooter if we had to.

So... If you can substitute a scoot for a car altogether, no brainer. If you're trying to augment a car with a scooter to achieve savings, that gets more complicated.

It gets even more complicated if you're dead set on buying a Hooligan 170i in when they come out next April :D
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Post by ericalm »

Scooternomics is very complex and most people don't account for many factors when comparing the cost of a scooter to some other vehicle.

There are tons of variables, from where you live to how you ride and things like the labor rates and turnaround times at your local shop.

The big problem is this: The general thought is that the more you ride, the more you save. But that usually only accounts for gas savings. The more you ride, the more you spend on tires, rollers and belts, oil changes and labor costs if you're not doing your own work. That also means more time the scooter spends in the shop or the more time you spend working on it.

There are many other considerations as well. Resale value on scooters declines more (percentage-wise) per 1,000 miles than most cars. Depreciation is a cost.

The age of your car and whether you own, are making payments or lease is a big factor as well. Number of repairs I needed for my 2008 Volvo C-30 for the four years I owned it: one. I got a flat tire, which I plugged myself. Amount I spent on maintenance and repairs: $0.

Amount I spent on my 2006 Vespa LX 150 in the first year of ownership: Probably close to $900 total in maintenance. That's three tires and changes, a couple oil changes, a 4,000 mile "big" maintenance, belt, rollers. Additional $500 (deductible) in repairs from having it knocked over in a parking lot. Granted, labor here is more than other cities, but so it goes.

I loved my car (gone, because I no longer needed one), but wasn't out putting miles on it every weekend for purely recreational purposes. I was rarely tempted to take the longest way home.
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The inner pragmatist considers

Post by RexM »

ericalm wrote:Scooternomics is very complex and most people don't account for many factors when comparing the cost of a scooter to some other vehicle.
Well said. Insightful post.
ericalm wrote:The general thought is that the more you ride, the more you save. But that usually only accounts for gas savings. The more you ride, the more you spend on...
Very true. “Riding enough” to save money is only possible if the total cost per scooter mile is lower than some acceptable alternative, and only for non-discretionary travel. That's complicated. My simplified assessment is one of overall satisfaction for the cost. I can't definitively say the scoot is saving me money but it's in the ballpark and when combined with various intangible benefits it's a net positive in value. Even my inner pragmatist is satisfied with the overall package.
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Post by olhogrider »

Just one more thought on tire cost. I buy mine from Cycle Gear. They offer a road hazard warranty. I always get it. I once put a new tire on the rear of a Ducati. The next day I picked up a nail. Cycle Gear replaced it for free. Well, I did have to buy a new warranty but that was a lot less than another new tire.
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Post by Throwback7R »

Sorry for the late reply! Well I do change my own scooter tires, and motorcycle tires, I even do car tires just a different method.

Ok for scooter tires.. I WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE for any one messing up or dying. Please do this at your own risk!

Here is what I do

Step one remove rim and tire from scooter.
Step 2 Pull valve core on tire so no air pressure and break bead of the tire" Where the rim and the tire hit.. They make machines for this but you can use large screw drivers to do it. for harder tires i have used 2x4's and made something similar to this.
http://www.harborfreight.com/motorcycle ... 98875.html

Step 3 use tire irons to remove old tire.
http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-ge ... 93230.html

once you have it off inspect the rim for damage and check to make sure it is safe IE no rust and clean .

Now time to install the tire.

Step 1 use soap and water on the bead surface of the tire do one bead at a time and use the irons to put it back in place.
Step 2 do the second bead and make sure nothing is ripped

i reinstall the tire on the scooter before inflating " Air pressure can be dangerous.

Once reinstalled insert core in valve stem and air up tire making sure the bead seats on rim. If not there are a few things you can do.


I have been changing tires for a long time, so this is easy for me now and usually takes me only about 30 min.

Hope this helps!
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