4-stroke FI bikes, vs. old school

[dkw12002]

Since I bought the Roughhouse, I been thinking more about the 2-stroke vs. 4 and FI vs. carbs, multiple cylinder vs. single, etc. debates. I own a Ninja 300 that is definitely high tech. It has FI, a slipper clutch, 2 cylinders, compact design. In other words, it can be hard to work on. Just a valve check...recommended at 7600 mi. costs $500+ at the dealer because there is a lot of labor involved in taking stuff off just to get to the valves. You could pay to have a 2-stroke engine re-built 3 times for the same money. Problems with FI are another potential issue. it would cost more to look into a FI problem that it would cost to replace a carb on a lower tech bike. I suppose a lot depends on how mechanical an owner is. If you can do everything yourself, you probably like high tech better. I am leaning toward low tech and simplicity being the better option myself...cheaper to buy, cheaper and easier to fix, tried and true, lots of people can work on low tech. including me. Lots of other factors though. Your thoughts?

[NeoGenesisMax]

My first scoot was four stroke and carb. My second scoot was two stroke and carb. My third scoot is four stroke and fuel injected. I've gotten a good look at how they run. To be honest I prefer the set up I have now. I like the consistency of the four stroke fuel injected scoot. My two stroke was very easy to work on but not all four stroke motors and bikes are hard to work on. For example my Kymco Like 200i is not overly hard to service. My first four stroke was harder to work on simply because removing panels and other bits was a bit of a chore. I grew up with a mechanic for a father and learned to appreciate something most people didn't know to look for. How easy is it to service the vehicle. It's always fun to ask the mechanics what is the easiest to maintain and work on. FYI my guys once bashed the Stella for being a bitch to work on.

[OldGuy]

I drive a 1987 Jeep Wrangler. Not a lot of high tech there. But I like it because it is simple and I get to fiddle with it.

If I bought a new Jeep, or a new scooter with 4 stroke and fuel injection I would have less to play with because these systems tend to be very reliable. As long as they are used often and the fuel is clean.

A potential issue with fuel injection on very small engines is that a tiny bit of crud can cause very big problems. And it can be hard for the non-mechanic to rectify. Many more of us can pull a carb apart and clean it out. So, I am a bit leery of FI on small engines, and if I had one I'd want to take pains to keep the system clean and run it often.

Still, the winner is 4t and FI. More reliable, and often better mileage.

[viney266]

The eternal debate. I do like FI, but I have to admit to being a fan of the carb...it works...always. And the average farm boy can fix one, not so with FI.

My beef is , at least in the car world we haven't seen the gains we should have, the 89 Civic DX got a reliable 45 MPG, where are we 25 years later?

[dkw12002]

Now the electronics are taking over on many models. My Zero is an example. Regenerative braking and coasting, computerized charging and balancing cells, blue tooth programming from an iphone app, motor designed by Zero, complicated battery management system. Very few people can work on this bike if one of those components develops problems. In fact, even though there are dealers who are doing some things, many times the bike is just sent back to Zero for issues and major components are too pricey to replace the entire component unless absolutely necessary. Lots of electronics on newer sport bikes too with their traction control, wheelie control, abs, ecu, FI. My Grom is a mix of the two extremes but leaning more toward simplicity. It has FI, but everything else is fairly low tech. SOHC, single cylinder and single exhaust and intake valve easily accessible and easily adjusted, etc. Any problem with the Zero is a no-brainer...back to the dealer with the bike likely gone for weeks or months. With the Grom, there's a good chance I can fix it myself or get it done locally in a couple days. Same with the Roughhouse. This is why I am leaning toward low tech and simplicity at the moment.

[JHScoot]

i haven't enough experience to have a valid opinion but carbs seem to work well on small engines. i haven't a problem in my few years of riding. i live in a somewhat warm region of common altitude, though

i also enjoy a good kick start now and again and recently would not have been able to start one of my scooters but for the practice. with FI i would have been out of luck

[Dooglas]

duplicate

[Dooglas]

It is a trade-off in my experience. The simpliest mechanical systems require the most tinkering and tend to be less reliable - though usually are relatively easy to repair/adjust. The complex electronic systems are more reliable and perform better - but require more skill and special equipment to diagnose and repair when something does go wrong. I have never had an electronic ignition/fuel injection bike let me down on a long ride - needless to say, I had the experience several times with earlier models.

[skipper20]

Since I bought the Roughhouse, I been thinking more about the 2-stroke vs. 4 and FI vs. carbs, multiple cylinder vs. single, etc. debates. I own a Ninja 300 that is definitely high tech. It has FI, a slipper clutch, 2 cylinders, compact design. In other words, it can be hard to work on. Just a valve check...recommended at 7600 mi. costs $500+ at the dealer because there is a lot of labor involved in taking stuff off just to get to the valves. You could pay to have a 2-stroke engine re-built 3 times for the same money. Problems with FI are another potential issue. it would cost more to look into a FI problem that it would cost to replace a carb on a lower tech bike. I suppose a lot depends on how mechanical an owner is. If you can do everything yourself, you probably like high tech better. I am leaning toward low tech and simplicity being the better option myself...cheaper to buy, cheaper and easier to fix, tried and true, lots of people can work on low tech. including me. Lots of other factors though. Your thoughts?

It's an endless debate. Low tech vs. high tech. Me? I like FI and a 4 stroke engine preferably 4 valves per cylinder. It could go on and on so how about a diversion and you give us a report on your new Roughhouse 50? What's the best thing you like about it? Will you still like the scoot when the Roughhouse 170i makes its debut next spring?

Bill in Seattle
'12 170i Italia
'11 220i Blur
'08 250ie Sport City

[dkw12002]

I test rode a 170i Buddy and I did like the speed and acceleration, but I was in the market for a replacement for a 2006 Metropolitan, so the 170i engine would be over-kill for that. I could conceivably replace the Vespa 300 with the 170i Roughhouse, but that is less likely now that I already have the same bike in a 50cc. but you never know. What I like about the 50cc Roughhouse is that is has good acceleration and speed for 50ccs. I spend much less time looking into my mirrors to check if I am slowing anyone down behind me. The seat is a little tall for me. I can flat foot it when I sit near the front of the seat and of course you can just slip forward and onto the ground if you need to and it's not like mounting a 32-in. seat motorcycle. Then when I ride I scoot back in the seat a little more to stretch out a bit, so it is fine. I'm just under 5'7" and weigh 138 lbs. So far there isn't anything I don't like about the Roughhouse. I like the side stand and kick start option, styling, red color too and the fact it has a 2-year warranty and I got an additional free engine rebuild whenever I need it in the future. I like the fact the dealer is a good guy and his dealership is less than 5 miles away and if I ever need help with one of this bikes, he comes and picks it up, fixes it, and delivers it back to my house. (af1 Racing, New Braunfels). Of course I have bought 11 bikes from him over the last 4 years or so. LOL When I first tried out the stand at the dealer, I backed away cause I couldn't get it on and off the center stand easily, but now it is easy (just lift up on the passenger handle at the same time you step) and I prefer that stand since it will allow me to change either tire, check the steering bearings, with ease. If you aren't aware, the Roughhouse 50 center stand is almost in the middle of the front to back center and acts more like a seesaw fulcrum. You can essentially pick which tire you want to raise. I doubt this will be the case in the 170i. Like OldGuy who posts on the Buddy Forum, I like the smaller bikes...easier to ride and move around in and out of the garage. 170i in a Roughhouse will be a good size though and since I would take that on the interstate. In fact, I did on my test ride with the Buddy. I ride my Grom 125 cc on the interstate (right lane) all the time. Speaking of small bikes and Groms, here is a new bike that I would be interested in: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/10/30/su ... torcycles/ Note the light weight of 137 lbs and short wheel base....10 inches shorter than the Grom and 20 inches shorter than a full-size bike. The F and R disc brakes suggest it will go over 35 mph. Best part? Suzuki makes it and they have an excellent dealer network plus good products. I will buy one of these if it comes out.

[Milt]

As a (former) die hard carburetor guy, I am reluctantly going to fuel injection because of the ethanol related deterioration of carb components. It looks as if things are only going to get worse, since the fools that run our lives for us seem hell-bent on increasing ethanol content despite the fact that ethanol costs more energy to produce than you get out of it.

I am still trying to get over the fact that our rides (except for the Buddy) now have one more system that I cannot service or repair...

The flip side of that coin is that, while it works, fuel injection works rather well.

[dkw12002]

What amazes me is that you can't even buy gasoline without alcohol in it. You would think the companies would have just one pump and tank that dispensed gasoline only. They could charge more money for it of course. That is an unmet business opportunity for many larger cities it seems to me. It's not just bike riders who object to gasohol. Many car owners do too and would gladly pay more to get the good stuff.

[NeoGenesisMax]

I buy ehanol free gas constantly.

[Milt]

You're lucky; in the People's Republic of Colorado, ethanol-free fuel is not particularly common and on road trips, a scooter's small fuel tank makes 'take what you can get' the order of the day.

[dkw12002]

Same here. All gasoline has ethanol in my area. My only other choice is to buy cans of racing fuel, which I don't want to deal with. On a more positive note, the ethanol is less of a problem far as I can tell, if you ride your scooter a lot. How much is enough, I cannot say. Many of the additives also help to dissolve varnish and combine with moisture. I don't use those (Seafoam, Chemtool, etc.) very much unless I suspect a bad batch of gas like you say if I get stuck in the boonies and have to fill up at an out of the way place where the gas is possibly months old, or if I have any carb problems along with whatever else I do...carb cleaner, for example. Running the scooter is the solution though. Even FI does not do as well with ethanol and get those jets gummed up and it is even a worse problem than a gummed up carb, I hear. My Roughhouse is the only bike I own with a carb at this time.

[Syd]

I suppose a lot depends on how mechanical an owner is. If you can do everything yourself, you probably like high tech better.

It is a trade-off in my experience. The simpliest mechanical systems require the most tinkering and tend to be less reliable - though usually are relatively easy to repair/adjust. The complex electronic systems are more reliable and perform better - but require more skill and special equipment to diagnose and repair when something does go wrong. I have never had an electronic ignition/fuel injection bike let me down on a long ride - needless to say, I had the experience several times with earlier models.

I agree with Dooglas. If you can do everything yourself the simpler systems are more to your liking. The tools are less expensive, as are the parts.

But if you can't or don't want to do your repairs the more reliable hi-tech systems are more for you. Feeler gauges are cheap; a diagnostic computer, well, ain't.

[charlie55]

.....Feeler gauges are cheap.....

Feeler gauges, indeed!

Matchbook covers are free. Just chew'em down to the desired thickness and voila.

You guys and your high-tech gadgets, sheesh.

[dkw12002]

Matchbook covers? Aren't those expensive? I don't use feeler gauges or matchbook covers...2-stroke you know plus the spark plugs are pre-set. Look at all the money I save.

[skully93]

We've had the gamut too.

1st scoot was 2t, buddies are 4t carbed, Beo is 4t FI. The helix is...a helix . 4t, not very happy to start when it's really cold. I'll probably buy it a newer ignition coil just because it wont' get ridden that much.

Since we have higher ethanol here in CO, I do use a lot of seafoam. I just ponied up for the gallon jug . With 4 bikes and a car that goes through @3 tanks of gas a year, it's a good thing to have on hand. There are only 2 drivers, and she can only drive the Buddys thus far.

The other thing we have in CO...Mountains! The buddy seems to cope pretty well, but FI is lovely when you're changing from 5k to 10k and back again in a single trip.

[Dooglas]

The other thing we have in CO...Mountains! The buddy seems to cope pretty well, but FI is lovely when you're changing from 5k to 10k and back again in a single trip.

>This<

[CapnK]

For ethanol-free fuel, look to a marina if you have one nearby/along your route. Most will carry it, because ethanol, high-humidity atmosphere around lakes/rivers/ocean, and the non-ethanol compatible fuel system components of most outboards are a mix that nobody wants to mess with - it is already known to be a major source of problems.

[dkw12002]

When I had the gummed up carb on the Metro, instead of adding Seafoam to an entire tank-full of gasoline, since the gas was OK,hat I did was wait until the tank was nearly out, then add just a couple capfuls to save money and drive it around a couple days like that. Depends on what you are trying to do with it....treat the gas or treat the carb/injectors. I did a bunch of stuff to the bike though, so I really don't know what cured it, but I suspect it was just riding it every day for 50 miles or so to keep the juices flowing through the carb jets so it would dissolve the varnish.

[TVB]

.....Feeler gauges are cheap.....

Feeler gauges, indeed!

Matchbook covers are free. Just chew'em down to the desired thickness and voila.

You guys and your high-tech gadgets, sheesh.

There's a bit in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance in which the narrator talks about the time he tried to fix the handlebars of his friend's expensive BMW bike using a strip of aluminum cut from an empty beer can, but his friend wouldn't let him use such a "low quality" part, choosing instead to put up with loose handlebars.

[SonnyD]

It's a funny thing, I really don't have an "absolute" in any of this. I like carbs, I like FI...... I like 2 strokes, I like 4 strokes..... Now before everyone thinks I sound more like a politician then a two wheel rider, I'll just say they both have equal value to me.
I've had an abundance of both bikes. I can rebuild a carb in the dark, but about all I do to FI is clean some components. Thankfully both venues are pretty darn reliable, with dirt and moisture being the biggest enemy of both.
I like two strokes for their power and simple ness and four strokes for their low end torque and sound. With hydraulic lifters, and FI, there really isn't much maintenance to do.
Equipment today is a whole lot more reliable then it was when I started out, that's for sure.