Yay, all for of my oil filter cover studs stripped

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:17 am

Like the title says, all four of my oil filter cover studs stripped in the crankcase. Replaced the filter and went to torque on the cover nuts. Set my torque wrench to the 1.1 Kg-M specified, started wrenching...and the stud turned with the nut. Tried all four and the same thing. How does all four studs strip out? Improperly manufactured studs? Wrong size pilot hole? Factory stripped them out? Never leaked oil, either, cover and gasket were on tight and all four nuts came off with no problem. Bringing it in first thing in the morning.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:55 am

I had to check the service manual on this. Crazy that they used studs in the oil filter cover, most machines with that sort of cover use bolts. At least the damages is limited to the clutch cover instead of the crankcase.

The delay for the cover assembly could take awhile, I've waited months for 4T parts to show at my dealer. For a more expeditious (and possibly sturdier) repair, they could put Heli-Coil inserts into the cover. They're made of steel and are a lot tougher than the aluminum threads.

Let us know how it turns out. BTW, what year is your 4T?

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:54 am

2012, new, it had been on the dealer floor for 2 years so I got a good deal on it. Was starting on the first 500mi service when this happened, guess I'll pay to have the dealer do the first service while it's there.

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:48 am

Well, my mother took the only vehicle able to tow the trailer big enough to carry the scoot even though I asked her to take a different vehicle last night. Quickly get the scoot loaded strapped onto the trailer and take off right when my mother gets home. Get to I35W, and traffic's backed all the way up the on ramp, but I didn't see it till I turned onto the ramp. Got stuck in traffic for 15 minutes because of an accident. Finally it clears and smooth sailing till I get to the dealership. Looks all closed up but I still pull in hoping I made it in time, pretty sure I did but I left my phone at home so I don't know the exact time. Walk up to the door and I forgot they're closed on Mondays.

jimmbomb · Post by **jimmbomb** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:15 pm

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:Well, my mother took the only vehicle able to tow the trailer big enough to carry the scoot even though I asked her to take a different vehicle last night. Quickly get the scoot loaded strapped onto the trailer and take off right when my mother gets home. Get to I35W, and traffic's backed all the way up the on ramp, but I didn't see it till I turned onto the ramp. Got stuck in traffic for 15 minutes because of an accident. Finally it clears and smooth sailing till I get to the dealership. Looks all closed up but I still pull in hoping I made it in time, pretty sure I did but I left my phone at home so I don't know the exact time. Walk up to the door and I forgot they're closed on Mondays.

wow..... no luck what so ever!!!!
Did ya stop on the way home for some eats at the "OPEN 23 1/2 hours Diner""
and it was closed too!!!!
Don't buy lotto tickets today!!

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:23 pm

Well I brought it in today and the service manager first tries to tell me I'd have to pay for the repairs myself. When I call bullshit, he changes it to "Well I'll contact Genuine to see if they'll cover it. But I don't think they will, because it was caused by the owner performing maintenance." Which is still BS, how can they claim to not cover a defect in workmanship/materials simply because I changed my own oil filter and torqued to the specs in the service manual. So more waiting. I almost want to say F'it and put in some helicoils myself, so I can at least be out riding and not waiting.

Elder Scoot · Post by **Elder Scoot** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:00 am

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:Well I brought it in today and the service manager first tries to tell me I'd have to pay for the repairs myself. When I call bullshit, he changes it to "Well I'll contact Genuine to see if they'll cover it. But I don't think they will, because it was caused by the owner performing maintenance." Which is still BS, how can they claim to not cover a defect in workmanship/materials simply because I changed my own oil filter and torqued to the specs in the service manual. So more waiting. I almost want to say F'it and put in some helicoils myself, so I can at least be out riding and not waiting.

That's nonsense - defective is defective. IMHO it doesn't matter who turned the wrench as long as the proper torque was applied.

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:59 am

When I told him multiple times that I had a torque wrench and service manual and knew the proper torque value, he finally said "Well, your torque wrench could have been miscalibrated or you could have been using it wrong." WTF, it's new and I've torqued half a dozen other fasteners on the scooter, including the oil drain plug and oil screen cap, without stripping them. And I know what 1.1 Kg-M (roughly 8 ft/lbs) should feel like and I never applied more force than that.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:37 pm

Fwiw you could take your torque wrench to them and let them see it. I never use my torque wrench on lower values because it's not very accurate at the lower settings.

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:12 am

Update: I got sick of waiting and after reading the warranty certificate, realized they most likely will not cover it. So I went out and tried to get the nuts off of the studs. Two I got off with a little finagling, two refused to come off. Turns out the threads on the studs stripped where the nut threads on, not the threads in the crankcase. I managed to get the last two nuts off by dremeling and cracking them. Same thing, the threads on the studs stripped where the nut was. Have no idea how to get the studs out now to replace them. Service manager said they were threaded in, so they probably are red loctited in, so that means heat. Parts diagram doesn't show this are in detail so I have no idea. Would require removing the clutch cover. Considering just bringing it to the dealer and having them replace the studs since I'm afraid of screwing something up more.

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:29 am

I got the studs out and replaced them without removing the clutch cover. It was a B, though. I had to use a pair of needle nose vise grips and turn out each stud a few degrees at a time. They were red loctited so I had to use a liberal amount of heat to dissolve the loctite and the vise grips didn't always bite into the stud. After a few hours, many hand cramps and break times later, I had the studs out. Putting the new ones on was a breeze. Still have the rear wheel off and the rear up on a piece of 2x4, waiting overnight to see if any oil leaks. Still considering bringing it to the dealer for the 500 mi service, since they know what best to look for and to have them look over my work.

jimmbomb · Post by **jimmbomb** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:37 pm

Very good!!
Just make sure that little bastard O-ring is set right and you'll be fine.
Where did you get the studs? Or make your own?

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:32 pm

What o-ring?

jimmbomb · Post by **jimmbomb** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:08 pm

A small one about nickel size that goes inbound in the center of the oil filter. . On my 2010.. I had a nagging small leak and couldnt tighten the nuts good enough before stripping as you did..still seeped. .. took it off and pulled the new filter out and there it was.. the o-ring was sitting there skewed.. pulled it out it carefully put it back in correctly this time. I never even noticed it there the first time. And all is good now without over torquing the 4 nuts..
Good luck

Ps.. tell us about the new studs for future users. Thanks

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:24 am

It was a gasket on both the old filter and new that fits into the hole in the filter.

The studs I used were (3) M6x1.0x36mm, one had to be ground down a few mm to avoid rubbing the tire, the other two had enough clearance. For the longer stud between the two oil passages, I chopped the head off a M6x1.0x50mm bolt. I wish I would have cut it off right at the head, instead I cut off a few threads with the head, it's just long enough for the nut to fully engage with maybe a thread extra. The Parts Diagram lists (3) M6x1.0x26 and (1) M6x1.0x40mm, all of which seem too short. Luckily, my local hardware store only carried M6x1.0 studs in 23mm and 36mm lengths, so I bought the longer ones, and the 50mm bolt. None of the big home improvement stores carried automotive studs and the car parts stores didn't carry any that small. So your best bet is to go to a Hardware Hank/True Value/Ace, they always seem to have a much larger selection of fasteners than the big stores.

On getting the old studs out and the new ones in, I have no idea if it's faster or easier to remove the clutch cover first, or to simply leave it on and work on the bike. Either way seems to be a PIA.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:08 pm

A bit late to the party but.....
You indicate you used a torque wrench which is good.

However, you did not mention if you used a inch pound or foot pound wrench.
A foot pound wrench, is terribly inaccurate below 10 foot pounds.
Anytime I am working on anything that calls for less than 15 ft pounds I employ a inch pound wrench, converting foot pound spec. to inch pounds.

That being said, you may have used a inch pound wrench and just found four sub-par studs.

Rob

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:50 pm

I did use a ft-lbs/Kg-M torque wrench. I know torque wrenches generally a less accurate towards the min and max of their value range. I actually had the wrench set to slightly below the specified value, 1.025 Kg-M, and I never got anywhere close to that when tightening the nuts on. I've been working on various things for a long time now, including 4 years as a radio repairman in the Marine Corps, I generally have a good sense of how much force to apply without over torquing. I think someone at the factory or dealership over torqued them and they just started to strip, and me removing the nuts and putting back on was just enough to strip them completely.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:47 pm

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:I did use a ft-lbs/Kg-M torque wrench. I know torque wrenches generally a less accurate towards the min and max of their value range. I actually had the wrench set to slightly below the specified value, 1.025 Kg-M, and I never got anywhere close to that when tightening the nuts on. I've been working on various things for a long time now, including 4 years as a radio repairman in the Marine Corps, I generally have a good sense of how much force to apply without over torquing. I think someone at the factory or dealership over torqued them and they just started to strip, and me removing the nuts and putting back on was just enough to strip them completely.

Yeah,
Once knowing you have the correct application (tool) then I'm with you on this one.....ham handed first assembly.

The other thing I've noted though is these Indian fasteners are....for lack of a better word, soft.....but not every one....there is no real ryme or reason for the varience.
For example, the rim assembly studs.....you almost have to go back to the 'feel technique' for tightening because you can feel the threads getting ready to pull.

Requires a rather deft hand.
Regarding the oil filter cover, since it is a 'O'ring type seal.....just tight enouph for the cover to seat plus a touch more may be the best approach.

Obviously not very scientific but its the only way one could reduce the possibility of fastener damage if they aren't damaged yet.

Rob

misterbrackets · Post by **misterbrackets** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:43 pm

The oil filter cover stud that also holds down the clutch cover is starting to go on mine. I wasn't able to torque it down all the way and am getting a little seepage there. I'll have to deal with it next time I change my filter.

What did you use to get the old studs out? Big ol' vice-grip?