Hooligan 170i vs Yamaha SMAX 155

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skipper20
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Hooligan 170i vs Yamaha SMAX 155

Post by skipper20 »

I sat on anSMax last week in my local Yamaha dealer's showroom and, yes, it did lack a little leg room. I was surprised that it weighs about 325 lbs. which seems a bit heavy for a 155cc scooter. My '14 Hooligan with a bigger engine at 169cc weighs about 60 lbs. less! I've heard that the SMAX is fast for its engine size with some claiming 70 mph. But, I don't think it's any faster than a 170i Hooligan as riding into my Buddy dealers for its 1st service last week I hit 70 mph indicated on a short freeway stretch before I made my exit. The MSRP for the 2 scoots is about the same at $3399 but pound for pound I think the Hooligan is the better buy.

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Post by avescoots1134 »

The SMax will blow a Hooligan away with it's 4 valve 155 and really good fuel injection. The Hooligan was supposed to be a 4 valve 125 that made more power than the current 168 but it couldn't pass emissions.
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Post by Dooglas »

The liquid cooled 4-valve engine on the S-max will easily run away from a Hooligan.
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Post by k1dude »

I rode a fully broken in 170i and a brand new SMAX back-to-back on the same city and country roads. The SMAX smoked the 170i. I hit 75 uphill easily (easy incline). It had more get-up-and-go, but I didn't want to push it too hard since it was still being broken-in.

The 170i couldn't accelerate fast enough or keep up when I was on the SMAX. When it was my turn to be on the 170i, I couldn't accelerate or keep up with the SMAX. So it wasn't the rider. It was the scooter.

I'm a big Genuine fan, but I was blown away by the SMAX.

The only drawback to the SMAX is it feels bigger (it is) and isn't as flickable. If you prize handling and manueverability over all else, the Buddy is better. The SMAX also feels heavier (it is). But, the SMAX is fast, strong, and very very smooth. It's an incredible machine. Yamaha hit a home run with the SMAX.
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Post by Greyscoot »

I had a chance to check out the S-Max. It is a nice ride. Having said that, I'll stick with my Hooligan. The Hoolie is fast enough for me. I like the lower weight of the Hooligan and the fact that it has more room. I feel too cramped on the S-Max.
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Post by skipper20 »

k1dude wrote:I rode a fully broken in 170i and a brand new SMAX back-to-back on the same city and country roads. The SMAX smoked the 170i. I hit 75 uphill easily (easy incline). It had more get-up-and-go, but I didn't want to push it too hard since it was still being broken-in.

The 170i couldn't accelerate fast enough or keep up when I was on the SMAX. When it was my turn to be on the 170i, I couldn't accelerate or keep up with the SMAX. So it wasn't the rider. It was the scooter.

I'm a big Genuine fan, but I was blown away by the SMAX.

The only drawback to the SMAX is it feels bigger (it is) and isn't as flickable. If you prize handling and manueverability over all else, the Buddy is better. The SMAX also feels heavier (it is). But, the SMAX is fast, strong, and very very smooth. It's an incredible machine. Yamaha hit a home run with the SMAX.
I'm guessing you rode a Buddy 170i and not a Hooligan 170i. The Hooligan is far superior to the Buddy. I know, because I have one of each.

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Re: Hooligan 170i vs Yamaha SMAX 155

Post by skipper20 »

skipper20 wrote:I sat on anSMax last week in my local Yamaha dealer's showroom and, yes, it did lack a little leg room. I was surprised that it weighs about 325 lbs. which seems a bit heavy for a 155cc scooter. My '14 Hooligan with a bigger engine at 169cc weighs about 60 lbs. less! I've heard that the SMAX is fast for its engine size with some claiming 70 mph. But, I don't think it's any faster than a 170i Hooligan as riding into my Buddy dealers for its 1st service last week I hit 70 mph indicated on a short freeway stretch before I made my exit. The MSRP for the 2 scoots is about the same at $3399 but pound for pound I think the Hooligan is the better buy.

Bill in Seattle
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Correction: Yamaha SMAX MSRP is $3690 not $3399. But, the SMAX comes with a windscreen standard whereas the Hooligan windscreen is $125 extra plus labor to install (it's NOT an easy job) so that narrows the difference a bit.

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Post by Whimscootie »

Interesting comments and answered some of my own questions re the Hooligan, which I test rode last year.
I am looking more at an S Max vs the Honda PCX 150 for next spring.
Hoping to test ride and compare these two.
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Post by bgwss »

I love my SMAX it will do 80 miles an hour and I am averaging 84.8 mpg. It is heavier and not as nimble but feels more stable to my Buddy 150 and do not get blown around as much by the Kansas wind. :D
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Post by skipper20 »

bgwss wrote:I love my SMAX it will do 80 miles an hour and I am averaging 84.8 mpg. It is heavier and not as nimble but feels more stable to my Buddy 150 and do not get blown around as much by the Kansas wind. :D
Is that 80 mph speedo indicated or GPS confirmed? If it's indicated it's probably closer to 70 confirmed which is still outstanding for a 155cc engine.

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Post by bgwss »

Just on the speedo there is you tube video where a guy confirms the speedo is off three mph. Works for me.
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Post by walke2jd »

Has anyone ridden an SMAX and a Vespa 250/300 and care to compare?

Seems like they would be in different leagues normally, but the SMAX looks to be quite the performer.
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Post by Dooglas »

walke2jd wrote:Has anyone ridden an SMAX and a Vespa 250/300 and care to compare?
Seems like they would be in different leagues normally, but the SMAX looks to be quite the performer.
I have not ridden an SMAX but I have put many miles on a Vespa GTS and have ridden bikes with comparable performance to the SMAX such as the Aprilia Sport City 200. If you are simply trying to get to the next level of performance above bikes like the Buddy or Vespa LX and are attracted to larger wheeled rides then bikes such as the SMAX represent a bargain and an important upgrade. But that is not really why people buy the GTS IMO. The GTS is expensive for what it is. Mostly you have to want a true small wheel metal body scooter that can run away from all the other classic design scooters. If that is what you want - and are willing to pay for it - the GTS is the only real choice. And judging by how many of them Piaggio sells, there are quite a few people in that category.
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Post by skipper20 »

Dooglas wrote:
walke2jd wrote:Has anyone ridden an SMAX and a Vespa 250/300 and care to compare?
Seems like they would be in different leagues normally, but the SMAX looks to be quite the performer.
I have not ridden an SMAX but I have put many miles on a Vespa GTS and have ridden bikes with comparable performance to the SMAX such as the Aprilia Sport City 200. If you are simply trying to get to the next level of performance above bikes like the Buddy or Vespa LX and are attracted to larger wheeled rides then bikes such as the SMAX represent a bargain and an important upgrade. But that is not really why people buy the GTS IMO. The GTS is expensive for what it is. Mostly you have to want a true small wheel metal body scooter that can run away from all the other classic design scooters. If that is what you want - and are willing to pay for it - the GTS is the only real choice. And judging by how many of them Piaggio sells, there are quite a few people in that category.
The original question was Hooligan 170i vs, Yamaha SMAX. I haven't ridden an SMAX either but I now have 650 miles on my Hooligan. It's the best scooter I've ever owned by far and I've owned a lot of them. Maybe someday I'll get to ride an SMAX and then I can provide an objective comparison but until that day comes I'll stick by my Hooligan. It's the best thing Genuine has ever produced.

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Post by thatvwbusguy »

The SMAX is a really great scooter. The 13" wheels make riding at speed seem more comfortable (physically and mentally). The riding position appears to be intended to keep the riders feet set slightly apart instead of directly in front of them like most standard scooters allow. This is probably good thinking on a quick scooter like the SMAX, since it can help to maintain a better feeling of balance and control. I think that could be part of the reason that Genuine went with a split foot stance on the Blur as well.

In my eyes, the Genuine Hooligan is an almost verbatim knock-off of the Yamaha BWS 125 (which is basically the same scooter as the Zuma 125 we get in the states aside from the vertical headlight). I recently got a chance to trade rides between my 2012 Zuma 125 (with 155BBK) and a friends Hooligan 170i for a few hours around town and down some twisty country roads.

I liked the Hooligan a lot, but it still doesn't have quite the same silky smooth engine or rock solid handling that the Yamaha delivers. I will probably do another season or two on my Zuma, then make the move to the SMAX. Hopefully by then there will be some affordable performance engine parts for the SMAX coming out of Taiwan.
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Smax

Post by Clydeo »

I have looked at the Smax and the PCX 150. Both seem to be great bikes. But both of them are water cooled 4 valve per cylinder bikes. I do all of my own maintenance, and I love being able to do a valve adjustment in 15 minutes. Peeling a bunch of plastic body work off, trying to work around the radiator, and trying to get 4 valves perfectly synced is just too much bother. I want a bike that has adequate performance and that is easy to work on. The Smax and pcx150 both have the first quality, but not the second. The Hooligan might. Next time I get a bike, the Hoolie will be on my list of "maybes", along with the Lance PCH.
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Post by thatvwbusguy »

With a Yamaha or Honda watercooled engine you will only be visiting the valves every 5,000 miles or so after it is broken in.

I just checked the valves on my Zuma 125 (with a self installed 155BBK), the valves haven't moved .001 in the past 2,500 miles and that is on a aircooled motor with performance cam and stock heads that I beat the hell out of every time I take it out.

Genuine makes a great product, but the engine and electrical system still don't quite compare to the stringent design and quality specs you will find from Honda, Yamaha or Suzuki in my opinion.
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Re: Smax

Post by Dooglas »

Clydeo wrote:I have looked at the Smax and the PCX 150. Both seem to be great bikes. But both of them are water cooled 4 valve per cylinder bikes. I do all of my own maintenance, and I love being able to do a valve adjustment in 15 minutes. Peeling a bunch of plastic body work off, trying to work around the radiator, and trying to get 4 valves perfectly synced is just too much bother. I want a bike that has adequate performance and that is easy to work on.
thatvwbusguy wrote:With a Yamaha or Honda watercooled engine you will only be visiting the valves every 5,000 miles or so after it is broken in.
I own a BV350 which has a water cooled 4-valve engine. The valves are not difficult to check, but more important - the recommended interval for inspection of valve clearance is 25,000 miles. Water cooling is how you get high performance, reliability, and long mileage from a small engine. Yes, a water cooled engine is more complex, but the benefits are substantial.
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Post by babblefish »

thatvwbusguy wrote:With a Yamaha or Honda watercooled engine you will only be visiting the valves every 5,000 miles or so after it is broken in.

I just checked the valves on my Zuma 125 (with a self installed 155BBK), the valves haven't moved .001 in the past 2,500 miles and that is on a aircooled motor with performance cam and stock heads that I beat the hell out of every time I take it out.

Genuine makes a great product, but the engine and electrical system still don't quite compare to the stringent design and quality specs you will find from Honda, Yamaha or Suzuki in my opinion.
You might want to read this: http://www.scooterunderground.com/knowl ... s_made.htm

Genuine doesn't "make" scooters, they import PGO scooters from Taiwan. In it's early years, PGO (Motive Power Industries) collaborated with Paggio (where the "PGO" supposedly came from). BTW, PGO does make water cooled scooters with 4-valves, we just don't get to have them (in the US). Their new BuBu, aka Buddy also has ABS, which we also don't get. Look up "J-BuBu S".

Though I don't consider myself an expert, I have worked on many brands of motorcycles and scooters through the years, and I would put PGO at the the same level as any of the Japanese manufacturers. No manufacturer makes perfect products and the Japanese big four are no exceptions, nor is PGO. Honda VF750 Interceptor anyone? On a similar topic, did anyone know that Mercedes makes some of the most unreliable cars in the world?

Anyway, here's a YouTube video by PGO that might be of interest to some: https://youtu.be/ErAAe64vCXI
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Smax

Post by Clydeo »

All things being equal, a water cooler bike will last longer than an air cooled bike. But not all things ARE equal. My Suzuki TU250 is an air cooled 2 valve per cylinder bike. It produces half the power that a high performance 250, or about 18 hp. But because the engine is under stressed, it has gone 35,000 miles with nothing but oil changes and an occasional valve check (I have only had to actually adjust the valves twice). It has actually proven to be more reliable than either of my two previous water cooled bikes (or my last two cars, for that matter!). Is my TU better than any other bike? No, most people would find it to be slow and out of date. But it just suits me well. It does everything I need it to do (including off road riding, long camping trips 2 up, daily commutes, etc) and never breaks. I don't need high performance.
Are the Smax and the Pcx better than the Hooligan? A Honda tech told me that it took him two hours to adjust the valves on a Pcx. That is simply unacceptable to me. I ride 12-15,000 miles a year, and I don't want to spend six hours a year checking valves. But I suspect that most people will just pay to have a shop check them, and probably won't care. For the majority of people, I suspect you are right: a modern water cooled 4 valves per cylinder bike would be a great choice, but I am glad that I can still get a bike that is just as simple to work on as a lawn mower is!
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Post by thatvwbusguy »

I am well aware of the origins of Genuine Scooters and the fact that they have been working with PGO for years. I try to make my posts accessible to everyone, not only the people who delve deeper into the scooter scene. When I said "Genuine makes a great product", it was a generalization to indicate that the scooters we get from Geniune are a high quality product.

I have also worked on countless motorcycles and scooters over the past 25 years or so since I started riding. I am currently maintaining 4 Genuine scooters (2 Buddy 125's and a Buddy 50 for friends, and a Buddy 170i for my wife) and don't personally consider them to be at quite the same level of fit, finish or refinement as some of the other Japanese or Taiwanese scooters I have owned or worked on. This opinion applies to body panels, lenses, wiring and engine performance. I do think that Genuine could have gotten a lot more power out of the 170i, but I understand their reasons for leaning toward reliability instead of peak performance based on their customer demographic.

While nothing in the current Genuine lineup tops my list of "must have" scooters, I respect the quality of the product enough that I purchased a new 170i for my wife based on the compact size, available engine power and the known reliability of the brand. I think she based her decision on the fact that she loved the color combination and overall looks of the Italia 170i, which seems like a lot more fun.

I like all sorts of scooters (even the cheap Ruckus knockoff that I bought earlier this year :wink: ), but I am not an outright fanboi of any specific manufacturer over another.
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Post by scootERIK »

babblefish wrote:Their new BuBu, aka Buddy also has ABS, which we also don't get. Look up "J-BuBu S".
A Buddy 170 with front wheel ABS would be a great scooter, add in the suspension from the Blackjack and it would be amazing, possibly mind blowing. Then Genuine would need to work with Corbin on a custom solo seat and you would have my dream scooter.
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Post by thatvwbusguy »

Does the J-BuBu S have an actual sensor based, computer controlled ABS braking system that monitors tire slip, or is it one of the mechanical pressure limiting ABS systems that regulates the maximum hydraulic pressure that can be delivered to the front disc brake?

If it is the real deal, that would be a great option to improve safety. If it is the latter, pressure limiting type, I would consider it a downgrade from a performance and safety standpoint since all it does is decrease the available power to the front brake with no feedback loop.
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Post by babblefish »

thatvwbusguy wrote:Does the J-BuBu S have an actual sensor based, computer controlled ABS braking system that monitors tire slip, or is it one of the mechanical pressure limiting ABS systems that regulates the maximum hydraulic pressure that can be delivered to the front disc brake?

If it is the real deal, that would be a great option to improve safety. If it is the latter, pressure limiting type, I would consider it a downgrade from a performance and safety standpoint since all it does is decrease the available power to the front brake with no feedback loop.
It's a sensor/computer based system made by Bosch with sensors on both front and rear wheels. The only thing weird about the J-Bubu is its 115cc engine displacement, though it is suppose to make as much power as a 125cc engine. Speaking of which, it has a 4V head and uses oil cooling vs air or water. Very similar to what some sportbikes use. To make it more interesting, a couple of companies make performance chips for the ECU.
I'm wondering if Genuine will ever bring it into the US, but I'm thinking no since it appears the J-Bubu has been around since 2012 and it's still not here.

BTW: my apologies if my previous post sounded insulting, it was not meant to be that way. Just passing on information. And, one of my dream vehicles to own one day is a 23 window VW bus with safari windows. Could have bought one for next to nothing back in the early 70s', but then everything seemed cheaper back in those days, at least by todays standards.
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Post by Dooglas »

babblefish wrote:...... everything seemed cheaper back in those days, at least by todays standards.
How much did you earn per month in the 70s? :wink:
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Post by thatvwbusguy »

When I was a kid I can remember going to a gravel pit to shoot pellet guns with my uncle and watching people pump lead into the side of a split window bus that someone had abandoned there all afternoon. My grandfather also left a 1966 11 window to rust into oblivion after the engine dropped an exhaust valve and overheated. Much to my dismay, he had it hauled off and crushed just before I was old enough to drive.

These days a fully restored 23 Window bus with period correct parts routinely sells for $75,000.00-$100,000.00.

A couple years ago I helped my friend Brad with some rewiring on a 21 Window that he pulled out of a junk yard and restored. He put a lot of late nights and weekends into the project, but ultimately ended up selling it to a buyer in Japan for just under $50,000.00, which is a pretty good payday in my book.

More recently the prices on 1980-1991 Vanagon's have gone through the roof as well. It is not unusual to see a Syncro (AWD) Westfalia Camper in good condition sell for around $80,000.00. This makes me really glad that I got my 1985 Westfalia when you could still get a good deal. I bought it for $5,000.00 in great condition from the original owner back in 1999. Today I could probably get at least 3X that price for it, but I am in no hurry to sell..
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Post by babblefish »

And here I thought my 66 fastback Mustang was valuable...
Guess I'm not getting a VW bus anytime soon :(
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Post by still shifting »

You guys are not helping me with my I want a a bus complex... R
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Post by still shifting »

You guys are not helping me with my I want a a bus complex... R
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Post by Elder Scoot »

So - let me see if I understand where this post is heading - does the Yamaha or Hooligan perform better than an antique VW bus? I would say that in areas other than protection from the elements either bike would run away from the bus in all performance areas. However, if I recall my hipper days correctly - the bus had other uses to which neither bike would be suitable. :roll:
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Post by Dooglas »

Elder Scoot wrote: if I recall my hipper days correctly - the bus had other uses to which neither bike would be suitable. :roll:
You obviously haven't seen this thread on Modern Vespa. :shock:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic142850
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Post by Elder Scoot »

Dooglas wrote:
Elder Scoot wrote: if I recall my hipper days correctly - the bus had other uses to which neither bike would be suitable. :roll:
You obviously haven't seen this thread on Modern Vespa. :shock:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic142850

I owned a 1970 XS1 and I also would not have considered it suitable as a platform for certain activities. But at that time everybody was doing their own thing - so I guess it's all groovy?
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Post by Raputtak »

I have not ridden an SMAX but have 1414 miles on the '14 Hooligan. When the speedometer reads 63 the GPS shows 55 mph. The rpm's are at 8k. This seems to be the top speed for the scooter. I have done a few more with a tail wind.

Oh, and tire pressure is 30 psi front and back.

Acceleration up to GPS 50 is great; beyond that it does try hard to go faster.

Other that those figures it is a great scooter.
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How would the S-max compare to the blur 220?

Post by boyjeenyus »

Seems like it might be a closer comparison for performance, price, and weight?
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