170i Performance Improvements?

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:18 pm

What performance improvements, if any, can be done to the 170i power train on a Hooligan to gain 5 mph top speed but not sacrifice hill climbing? I don't mind losing acceleration at the low end because my Hooligan leaves cars in the dust from a dead stop but losing out on the hills would be a definite deal breaker. So, if any of you have had actual experience with the 170i Buddy or Hooligan I'd appreciate hearing from you. TIA,

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium

dasscooter · Post by **dasscooter** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:50 pm

13G rollers from the Buddy 170 will fix 'er right up. The hooligan comes with 11G which is great for acceleration but not good for top speed.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:44 pm

If the heavier rollers don't get you to where you want to be, then there are only 3 ways to get there, assuming the engine has the torque to get it done:
1) Raise the engine's red line, in other words, increase the engine's operational RPM range.
2) Replace the rear tire with one that has a taller profile. This will change the overall gear ratio of the bike. This may not get you that extra 5 MPH using a reasonable tire size though.
3) This is the best option, if it can be done: change the gear set in the gearbox for a ratio that favors top speed. You'll take a hit on acceleration, but if the engine has the torque, then it won't be too much of a hit. This is the approach I want to take. And while there are plenty of gear sets offered for GY6 engines, I'm not sure if PGO did something different in their design just to make things difficult for us. PGO themselves (not that I know of anyway) does not offer alternative gear sets.

If you come up with something, please do let us know.

cummingsjc · Post by **cummingsjc** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:14 am

dasscooter wrote:13G rollers from the Buddy 170 will fix 'er right up. The hooligan comes with 11G which is great for acceleration but not good for top speed.

What size rollers are they? 13G x ? Is there a definitive source for rollers/sliders by bike type?

cummingsjc · Post by **cummingsjc** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:15 am

Scooterworks has this available:

https://www.scooterworks.com/Scooterwor ... 13063.aspx

Maybe it might help a little.

wheelbender6 · Post by **wheelbender6** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:24 am

Some good info about Buddy 170 mods in this thread.
topic30211.html

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:07 pm

cummingsjc wrote:Scooterworks has this available:

https://www.scooterworks.com/Scooterwor ... 13063.aspx

Maybe it might help a little.

Thanks. How about this transmission kit too? https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Super- ... P1325.aspx
Anyone have any experience with it?

wheelbender6 · Post by **wheelbender6** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:51 am

Some buddy riders have gained a few mph by simply adding a windshield.

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:29 pm

dasscooter wrote:13G rollers from the Buddy 170 will fix 'er right up. The hooligan comes with 11G which is great for acceleration but not good for top speed.

Is this based on your actual experience? The Genuine dealer here in Tucson says that with the heavier rollers I'd experience a noticeable power loss on hills as well as acceleration from a stop. Yes, top end would improve but he claims I'd be disappointed in the trade offs. He's recommending the Scooterworks performance muffler instead. Comments?

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

paracer · Post by **paracer** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:50 pm

wheelbender6 wrote:Some buddy riders have gained a few mph by simply adding a windshield.

I found that I didn't gain anything. I actually feel like I lost a bit and the bike is more affected by the currents of air that come off of other vehicles. That is compared to my 5'7" 160lb frame being able to rest my chin on the speedometer.

I would like to trim the lower edge of my Prima windshield to sink it down over the headlight. I think it would look slick and maybe get some speed back.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:26 pm

skipper20 wrote:
dasscooter wrote:13G rollers from the Buddy 170 will fix 'er right up. The hooligan comes with 11G which is great for acceleration but not good for top speed.
Is this based on your actual experience? The Genuine dealer here in Tucson says that with the heavier rollers I'd experience a noticeable power loss on hills as well as acceleration from a stop. Yes, top end would improve but he claims I'd be disappointed in the trade offs. He's recommending the Scooterworks performance muffler instead. Comments?

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

What your dealer says is basically correct, but I'm wondering if his opinion is based upon experience with a 50cc, 125cc, or 150cc Buddy. A 170i is going to make more torque, which may be able to compensate for the increased low RPM load.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:35 pm

paracer wrote:
wheelbender6 wrote:Some buddy riders have gained a few mph by simply adding a windshield.
I found that I didn't gain anything. I actually feel like I lost a bit and the bike is more affected by the currents of air that come off of other vehicles. That is compared to my 5'7" 160lb frame being able to rest my chin on the speedometer.

I would like to trim the lower edge of my Prima windshield to sink it down over the headlight. I think it would look slick and maybe get some speed back.

Just for information sake, being the same height and weight as you, my experience with a windshield on my Blur has been the opposite. I found that I could gain about 4-5 MPH with the windshield plus there was less wind turbulence and noise. But, that's on a Blur. Not sure of it's effect on a Buddy or Hooligan. That being said, I took the windshield off because I didn't like how it looked on a Blur, too tall and all.

paracer · Post by **paracer** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:15 pm

babblefish wrote:
paracer wrote:
wheelbender6 wrote:Some buddy riders have gained a few mph by simply adding a windshield.
I found that I didn't gain anything. I actually feel like I lost a bit and the bike is more affected by the currents of air that come off of other vehicles. That is compared to my 5'7" 160lb frame being able to rest my chin on the speedometer.

I would like to trim the lower edge of my Prima windshield to sink it down over the headlight. I think it would look slick and maybe get some speed back.
Just for information sake, being the same height and weight as you, my experience with a windshield on my Blur has been the opposite. I found that I could gain about 4-5 MPH with the windshield plus there was less wind turbulence and noise. But, that's on a Blur. Not sure of it's effect on a Buddy or Hooligan. That being said, I took the windshield off because I didn't like how it looked on a Blur, too tall and all.

Interesting. I'm keeping the windshield on mine until the weather warms up a bit. I feel like a weenie hiding behind that piece of plastic. Damn winter.

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:53 pm

babblefish wrote:
paracer wrote:
wheelbender6 wrote:Some buddy riders have gained a few mph by simply adding a windshield.
I found that I didn't gain anything. I actually feel like I lost a bit and the bike is more affected by the currents of air that come off of other vehicles. That is compared to my 5'7" 160lb frame being able to rest my chin on the speedometer.

I would like to trim the lower edge of my Prima windshield to sink it down over the headlight. I think it would look slick and maybe get some speed back.
Just for information sake, being the same height and weight as you, my experience with a windshield on my Blur has been the opposite. I found that I could gain about 4-5 MPH with the windshield plus there was less wind turbulence and noise. But, that's on a Blur. Not sure of it's effect on a Buddy or Hooligan. That being said, I took the windshield off because I didn't like how it looked on a Blur, too tall and all.

Thanks for your input. My experience re windshields for scooters has all been positive but in varying degrees. It has ranged from a GPS verified 2.3 mph increase for a 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 down to a .6 mph increase for a 2016 Genuine Roughhouse 50. But, they were all increases. No decreases.

Since my '15 Hooligan came with a windshield I'm unable to claim if the windshield increased its performance. But, based on my aforementioned experience, I'm confident that it did so I'm already there - 60 mph WOT GPS verified. This means that my cruising level at about 3/4 throttle is 50 - 55 mph. I'd like to get that level up 5 mph to 55 - 60 mph. So, the big question is will the Scooterworks performance muffler for 170i get me there? TIA,

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:59 pm

Short windshield will be the best bang for the buck.

This is one reason I like carbed scooters, no mapping... What would I do? Sell the 170, get a used 125, modify the BBC to 161, air box mod, new carb and an NCY pipe. It will smoke a 170 and has enough torque to whellie from under you.

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:29 am

BuddyRaton wrote:Short windshield will be the best bang for the buck.

This is one reason I like carbed scooters, no mapping... What would I do? Sell the 170, get a used 125, modify the BBC to 161, air box mod, new carb and an NCY pipe. It will smoke a 170 and has enough torque to whellie from under you.

Thank for your input. Are you suggesting I get a shorter windshield than the windshield that I said was already on my Hooligan? Why would a shorter windshield give me more bang for the buck than the Hooligan's stock Prima windshield which is mid-size? It has a laminar tip which directs the air flow up and over the top of my helmet. A shorter windshield would give me wind blast in the chest thereby slowing me down. Please explain. Also, it sounds like you're in favor of a NCY pipe which I'm pretty sure is the same as the ScooterWorks Hooligan 170i performance pipe which the Tucson Genuine dealer is recommending. How would you feel about also replacing the stock 11g rollers with heavier 13g rollers? Do you think that would result in better top end performance without slowing me down on the hills? Thanks again,

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:41 pm

As babblefish stated rollers aren't going to get you any more top end.

Laminar lips are great for comfort but create drag. For the Buddy the short windscreen hits the sweet spot between good aerodynamics and drag.

The biggest factor is weight. Lighter riders go faster and accelerate faster. Fair or not that is the way it is!

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:46 pm

I like the combination of a kitted 161 with up sized carb and NCY pipe. When I did this the Prima pipes were having a lot of weld problems but I am very happy with the results.

This is what has worked for me. If I was setting up another bike I may set it up differently. Everything has to play nice with each other!

paracer · Post by **paracer** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:23 am

I would imagine a Hooligan would react well to a big valve head with some port work, and a ncy exhaust. That should build enough power to push the bike to a higher speed and maybe support a taller rear tire.

I had good results with a big bore, air box mod, and large port head on my Buddy 125. I have actually maxed out the stock carb. Meaning, I am up to the largest main jet offered and I still have to cover part of the air box inlet. I'm thinking about trying a 30mm cvk carb so that it is as close to a drop in replacement as possible.

If you want to be more comfortable cruising at a higher speed, I would look to first boost high end power (big bore and head), then consider a taller tire and maybe a variator/slider upgrade.

It sounds like a windscreen is a variable that depends on the bike and rider.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:57 am

paracer wrote:I would imagine a Hooligan would react well to a big valve head with some port work, and a ncy exhaust. That should build enough power to push the bike to a higher speed and maybe support a taller rear tire.

I had good results with a big bore, air box mod, and large port head on my Buddy 125. I have actually maxed out the stock carb. Meaning, I am up to the largest main jet offered and I still have to cover part of the air box inlet. I'm thinking about trying a 30mm cvk carb so that it is as close to a drop in replacement as possible.

If you want to be more comfortable cruising at a higher speed, I would look to first boost high end power (big bore and head), then consider a taller tire and maybe a variator/slider upgrade.

It sounds like a windscreen is a variable that depends on the bike and rider.

What was the max MJ size that you used? Just wondering because I used the stock 24mm carb in my 183cc Blur for a while with a 118 MJ and it ran pretty good, but just a touch lean. I eventually changed the carb to a 30mm CVK, but you need to know it is NOT a bolt-in affair. Because the 30mm carb is physically larger, you'll need to raise the intake manifold about 10mm in order for the carb to clear the engine. You can read more about it here, near the bottom of the page:

viewtopic.php?t=16629&postdays=0&postor ... &start=150

Or if you're a glutton for punishment, you can read my entire blog, lol.

To use a 30mm carb, you'll also need to replace the stock intake manifold with one designed for a 30mm carb. As for me, because I spend most of my time riding within city limits where high speed runs are not possible, my plan is to replace the 30mm carb with a 26mm. I'll get better MPG and better throttle response for everyday riding. This will be plenty of carburetion for my engine, and believe me, my engine has had a bit of work done to it. If you're still set on getting a 30mm carb, keep in mind that there are two types of CVK carbs out there. One sells for about 1/4 - 1/3 the cost of the other. The one you want is the expensive one, around $115. Why? Because it has an accelerator pump whereas the cheaper one does not. Also, AFAIK, the pricier one's are made in Taiwan, not China. You can tell the difference right away by looking at the CV slider cover - the cheaper one is a yellow zinc plated metal, while the pricier one is black plastic (just like the stock carb). It cracks me up how most of the dealers on eBay selling the cheaper one try to cover up the CV slider cover with the choke's wiring harness in order to conceal it. I also noticed on eBay that a company in China is now producing carbs with the accelerator pump and the black plastic cover, but at 1/2 - 2/3 the price of the Taiwan made one. I have no idea how good (bad?) it is. If you decide to get this knock-off, please let us know what the quality is like and how it works for you.

BTW: I use 13 gm sliders in my variator and there is no bog in accelerating from a standstill. I might even try some 14 gm sliders next. And, just in case you were not aware, some of the aftermarket performance variators have a slightly larger diameter which when used with heavier rollers/sliders will give a little more overdrive at max throttle, i.e., higher top speed.

Lastly, boosting horsepower will not get you a higher top speed if everything else remains the same. It will, however, allow you to maintain your top speed on hills and in headwind conditions. Like I mentioned earlier, in order to significantly increase top speed, you must either raise the engine's operational RPM or change the ratio between how fast the engine is spinning vs the rear wheel's RPM.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:38 pm

skipper20 wrote:
cummingsjc wrote:Scooterworks has this available:

https://www.scooterworks.com/Scooterwor ... 13063.aspx

Maybe it might help a little.
Thanks. How about this transmission kit too? https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Super- ... P1325.aspx
Anyone have any experience with it?

I have that on my buddy. It's smooth, but really the most gain for your buck you'll get is just changing the weights to sliders.

Even then it's pretty subjective.

Also, how many miles? My buddy opened up after a few thousand, and felt even better after 5k. If you just have a few hundred on there, be nice to it. It's a wee little engine!

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:22 pm

skully93 wrote:
skipper20 wrote:
cummingsjc wrote:Scooterworks has this available:

https://www.scooterworks.com/Scooterwor ... 13063.aspx

Maybe it might help a little.
Thanks. How about this transmission kit too? https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Super- ... P1325.aspx
Anyone have any experience with it?
I have that on my buddy. It's smooth, but really the most gain for your buck you'll get is just changing the weights to sliders.

Even then it's pretty subjective.

Also, how many miles? My buddy opened up after a few thousand, and felt even better after 5k. If you just have a few hundred on there, be nice to it. It's a wee little engine!

Thanks for your input. At just under 700 miles and the first service done I'm already noticing a slight improvement. It feels like the engine is running with a bit more freedom. Thanks also for not telling me to sell it, buy a carbureted Buddy 125 and severely modify it!

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:18 am

skipper20 wrote: Thanks also for not telling me to sell it, buy a carbureted Buddy 125 and severely modify it!

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

Dude...I told you what my set up is...I told you what I would do. I NEVER told you what you should do.

It's your scooter, do whatever you want to it.

Out

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:56 am

BuddyRaton wrote:
skipper20 wrote: Thanks also for not telling me to sell it, buy a carbureted Buddy 125 and severely modify it!

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

Dude...I told you what my set up is...I told you what I would do. I NEVER told you what you should do.

It's your scooter, do whatever you want to it.

Out

I think he was thanking you for not telling him to sell his scooter and go buy a Buddy 125 instead...

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:53 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:
skipper20 wrote: Thanks also for not telling me to sell it, buy a carbureted Buddy 125 and severely modify it!

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)

Dude...I told you what my set up is...I told you what I would do. I NEVER told you what you should do.

It's your scooter, do whatever you want to it.

Out

You're right. You did say it was what you would do, not what I should do. Sorry I misread your post. BTW, thanks for clarifying the short windshield.

Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)