Genuine Buddy 170i vs Yamaha S max
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- Mikestib1
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Genuine Buddy 170i vs Yamaha S max
I've owned the Buddy 170 for a year. Great city scooter. Just got the Smax. The riding position is similar, it weighs more, but you get front and rear disc brakes, a higher seat height. The Buddy is best in the city, after a Ncy exhaust and 11g Dr Pulley sliders, it hauls ass up to 40 mph. The Yamaha is more like a highway scooter with its bigger wheels and more weight and horsepower. As well as much more top speed.Fortunately I can have both. I considered the PCX150 but did not like the throw your leg over the seat to mount and dismount. If I want to do that, I'd just buy a motorcycle. Luckily I got the Buddy for $2800 plus tax and the S max for $3700 on the road. Both were new non current. Gone riding!
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe
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Re: Genuine Buddy 170i vs Yamaha S max
I'm surprised that you're only getting 40 mph with your Buddy 170 even with the NCY exhaust and 11g sliders. My '12 Buddy 170i Italia (now sold) bone stock could easily hit 60 mph GPS confirmed.Mikestib1 wrote:I've owned the Buddy 170 for a year. Great city scooter. Just got the Smax. The riding position is similar, it weighs more, but you get front and rear disc brakes, a higher seat height. The Buddy is best in the city, after a Ncy exhaust and 11g Dr Pulley sliders, it hauls ass up to 40 mph. The Yamaha is more like a highway scooter with its bigger wheels and more weight and horsepower. As well as much more top speed.Fortunately I can have both. I considered the PCX150 but did not like the throw your leg over the seat to mount and dismount. If I want to do that, I'd just buy a motorcycle. Luckily I got the Buddy for $2800 plus tax and the S max for $3700 on the road. Both were new non current. Gone riding!
Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
- Mikestib1
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Not top speed
The Buddy hits 40 in a city block. Top speed is 62. I love it. The S max is for longer rides at higher speeds, up to 75 so cruising at 55 it's not working as hard. I am disappointed the Yamaha, though liquid cooled, has no spin on oil filter, just the crude spring and mesh debris catcher. My guess is my 170i will go longer without a rebuild. Also, Yamaha recommends 10w30 for gear oil. How weird is that?
I'm going to use Amsoil 10w30 full synthetic in the engine and the differential.
I just got the Yamaha yesterday, picked it up out of state in a pick up. Of course it's raining cats and dogs today. First ride tomorrow.
I'm going to use Amsoil 10w30 full synthetic in the engine and the differential.
I just got the Yamaha yesterday, picked it up out of state in a pick up. Of course it's raining cats and dogs today. First ride tomorrow.
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe
- wheelbender6
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Re: Not top speed
Thanks for the clarification. That's just about what I experienced with my '12 Buddy 170i which has since been sold. You mentioned in your original post that you had the NCY exhaust on your Buddy 170i. Did you experience any sort of performance improvement with it? The reason I'm asking is that I recently had the Scooterworks NCY performance exhaust installed on my Hooligan 170i. No increase in performance whatsoever. I was very disappointed. Maybe it's because the Hooli is about 40 lbs. heavier than the Buddy and running the same engine. Not really sure. All I know is I'm getting the exact same 59.8 GPS confirmed top speed as I was getting with the Hooli's stock exhaust. Very disappointing. Been thinking about getting the Scooterworks performance transmission kit installed but I don't want to be doubly disappointed. I'll probably just stay with what I have and be satisfied with it.Mikestib1 wrote:The Buddy hits 40 in a city block. Top speed is 62. I love it. The S max is for longer rides at higher speeds, up to 75 so cruising at 55 it's not working as hard. I am disappointed the Yamaha, though liquid cooled, has no spin on oil filter, just the crude spring and mesh debris catcher. My guess is my 170i will go longer without a rebuild. Also, Yamaha recommends 10w30 for gear oil. How weird is that?
I'm going to use Amsoil 10w30 full synthetic in the engine and the differential.
I just got the Yamaha yesterday, picked it up out of state in a pick up. Of course it's raining cats and dogs today. First ride tomorrow.
Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
- az_slynch
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Re: Not top speed
Bill, an exhaust alone won't add more speed if the induction path is stock. The new exhaust may flow better, but it can only flow as well as the induction path. Might look for a performance air filter and then reset your ECU. A PGO Libra or X-Hot should have the right filter.skipper20 wrote:All I know is I'm getting the exact same 59.8 GPS confirmed top speed as I was getting with the Hooli's stock exhaust. Very disappointing. Been thinking about getting the Scooterworks performance transmission kit installed but I don't want to be doubly disappointed. I'll probably just stay with what I have and be satisfied with it.
Not claiming filters are guaranteed to make power, but I did 1gr heavier Dr. Pulley sliders and a performance air filter on my Yager; with a fresh belt and tires, it maxed out at 77mph. When new, it struggled to hit 72mph. Mileage to loosen up the motor, good oil and a few well-considered tuning steps can make gains.
At what point does a hobby become an addiction? I'm uncertain, but after the twelfth scooter, it sorta feels like the latter...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
- babblefish
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Taking a spark plug reading would have helped determine if the engine was running lean after the exhaust system swap. If so, then like az_slynch said, the induction system is not compensating for the freer flowing exhaust. I believe PGO's FI is a closed system, which means there is an O2 sensor in the exhaust. If so, just disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes then reconnect and ride the scooter. It will take a few miles for the ECU to recalibrate itself. After a few miles, take another spark plug reading and see if there is any change in color.
Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.
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Thanks. I'll try it but is this another way to recalibrate/reset the ECU?babblefish wrote:Taking a spark plug reading would have helped determine if the engine was running lean after the exhaust system swap. If so, then like az_slynch said, the induction system is not compensating for the freer flowing exhaust. I believe PGO's FI is a closed system, which means there is an O2 sensor in the exhaust. If so, just disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes then reconnect and ride the scooter. It will take a few miles for the ECU to recalibrate itself. After a few miles, take another spark plug reading and see if there is any change in color.
1. Hold the throttle wide open and turn the key to the on position (do not start the motor).
2. After the fuel pump and idle motor are heard and stop cycling release the throttle.
3. Turn the key off and it's done.
The Genuine dealer in Seattle suggested this procedure last fall when I was having an unrelated problem with my Seattle-based '14 Hooligan.
Bill in Seattle
'14 170i Hooligan Matte Green
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
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No, that's how you reset the throttle position sensor. The PGO fuel injection doesn't have an O2 sensor in the exhaust to monitor AFRs so any modifications will likely do squat or even hurt performance. The MAP sensor in the throttle body tells the computer what to do to a stock engine with correctly adjusted valves and a clean air filter but can't adjust much for modifications.skipper20 wrote:Thanks. I'll try it but is this another way to recalibrate/reset the ECU?babblefish wrote:Taking a spark plug reading would have helped determine if the engine was running lean after the exhaust system swap. If so, then like az_slynch said, the induction system is not compensating for the freer flowing exhaust. I believe PGO's FI is a closed system, which means there is an O2 sensor in the exhaust. If so, just disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes then reconnect and ride the scooter. It will take a few miles for the ECU to recalibrate itself. After a few miles, take another spark plug reading and see if there is any change in color.
1. Hold the throttle wide open and turn the key to the on position (do not start the motor).
2. After the fuel pump and idle motor are heard and stop cycling release the throttle.
3. Turn the key off and it's done.
The Genuine dealer in Seattle suggested this procedure last fall when I was having an unrelated problem with my Seattle-based '14 Hooligan.
Bill in Seattle
'14 170i Hooligan Matte Green
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
- babblefish
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Thanks for the clarification on the O2 sensor. I was looking at the service manual for the X-Hot were it shows an O2 sensor in the exhaust. Since it is present on PGO scooters in the rest of the world, I assumed it would be on US bikes, too. Strange it is missing from US bikes. I guess emissions laws are stricter in other parts of the world. Or else PGO understands that people outside of the US are more likely to modify their engines.
Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.
- az_slynch
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The X-Hot and Libra are both 4V engines as well, where the Hooligan has a 2V top end. The Hooligan likely uses the same EFI setup as a Buddy 170 instead of the X-Hot/Libra EFI setup.
At what point does a hobby become an addiction? I'm uncertain, but after the twelfth scooter, it sorta feels like the latter...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
- babblefish
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Thanks. Just for the record, my X-Hot manual shows both 2V and 4V models of the scooter, with both using the same FI system. And interestngly, my GMax manual shows a 2V engine with an FI system using a O2 sensor. Confusing, isn't it?az_slynch wrote:The X-Hot and Libra are both 4V engines as well, where the Hooligan has a 2V top end. The Hooligan likely uses the same EFI setup as a Buddy 170 instead of the X-Hot/Libra EFI setup.
Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.
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I didn't do the spark plug reading test but I did disconnect/reconnect the battery for 10 minutes, rode the scooter 7 miles RT over the same course and my GPS said my mph improved 1.1 mph, i.e. 59.2 to 60.3. So, a very modest improvement but an improvement nevertheless. I'm thinking this is going to be about as good as it's going to get. I'm still thinking about the Scooterworks' transmission/clutch performance kit for Hooligan but don't want to spend the $ if it slows me down on the hills or won't do anything for me on the top end. Comments anyone?babblefish wrote:Taking a spark plug reading would have helped determine if the engine was running lean after the exhaust system swap. If so, then like az_slynch said, the induction system is not compensating for the freer flowing exhaust. I believe PGO's FI is a closed system, which means there is an O2 sensor in the exhaust. If so, just disconnect the battery for about 10 minutes then reconnect and ride the scooter. It will take a few miles for the ECU to recalibrate itself. After a few miles, take another spark plug reading and see if there is any change in color.
Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
- az_slynch
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On Saturday, Ron at ScootOver let me poke through two Hooligan engines that were in for rebuild to look at things like the camshaft, valves and final reduction assembly. I took some pictures and notes to reference and a germinated a few ideas for looking for a few more mph.skipper20 wrote:I didn't do the spark plug reading test but I did disconnect/reconnect the battery for 10 minutes, rode the scooter 7 miles RT over the same course and my GPS said my mph improved 1.1 mph, i.e. 59.2 to 60.3. So, a very modest improvement but an improvement nevertheless. I'm thinking this is going to be about as good as it's going to get. I'm still thinking about the Scooterworks' transmission/clutch performance kit for Hooligan but don't want to spend the $ if it slows me down on the hills or won't do anything for me on the top end. Comments anyone?
It could be conjecture that you gained some speed from an ECU reset, but maybe other induction / exhaust improvements will help, such as a high-flow air filter and a camshaft with a bit more exhaust duration to compensate for the seemingly smallish exhaust valve. Something mild like an A8 cam might work, but I need to compare dimensions to see if that's feasible. I think the intake side of the cam should remain as close to stock as possible in order to avoid messing with the EFI and ignition.
For the transmission, before throwing money at a trans kit, I'd start with a set of 13gr Dr. Pulley sliders and possibly a 1000rpm contra spring; I find the slighty-beefier-than-stock spring seldom impacts top speed, but does aid in holding a lower gear at takeoff and downshifting for hills when running heavier sliders.
For a more dramatic transmission change, I'd consider changing the secondary gears in the final reduction. Stock is a 13/43 set; depending on spline size, you might be able to use a GY6 kit with a 14/39 or a 15/37. If those won't fit, maybe Buddy 170i gears would work, since they do spin a smaller 10" tire to achieve the same speed you're making on a 12" tire. Not sure what the 125/150/170 Buddy secondary ratios are, though.
The upshot of all this is that there aren't any single magic bullets to bolt on and gain 10+mph. To go faster, the engine must spin faster or make more torque to drive a taller set of gears. To do so, the engine needs to make more power near the top end of the powerband, not only to achieve either of the aforementioned goals, but to overcome any increase in drag as you go faster.
You have a limitation on making power by nature of the Hooligan's air cooled engine. More power = more heat, which is harder for an air-cooled motor to shed than a water-cooled motor. Tuning a water cooled motor like the Yager and RV200 have will carry less risk of reduced engine life than similar tuning on the Hooligan.
The tweaks I've suggested might help some, but they are not guaranteed to add big speed to your Hooligan. You will need to determine what you are willing to do to the engine and what risk you're wiling to accept in modifying the engine outside the manufacturer's parameters. Sliders, a spring and an air filter are low-risk mods. A carefully-selected, mild performance cam is more involved in parts/labor, but not much riskier. Changing the final gears are the biggest question, as finding the parts that will fit could be challenging due to PGO's aversion to compatibility with other marques and figuring out how much extra gear ratio your engine can capably drive could require more gearbox gaskets, gear oil and parts cost than you're willing to put up with.
At what point does a hobby become an addiction? I'm uncertain, but after the twelfth scooter, it sorta feels like the latter...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
- az_slynch
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One was a top end job, looked like an oil pressure failure. No shattered bits, but it had been making unpleasant knocking sounds and the oil indicator was on even though the crankcase had plenty of oil and had only done a few hundred miles since the last service. The other one is getting modified to go in a Ruckus frame, which could be pretty excellent.Syd wrote:az_slynch wrote:On Saturday, Ron at ScootOver let me poke through two Hooligan engines that were in for rebuild...
At what point does a hobby become an addiction? I'm uncertain, but after the twelfth scooter, it sorta feels like the latter...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
Seriously...I've lost count...
Seven mopeds ...that's still manageable...
- Syd
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That's better, and the Hooli's heart in a Ruckus sounds interesting!az_slynch wrote:One was a top end job, looked like an oil pressure failure. No shattered bits, but it had been making unpleasant knocking sounds and the oil indicator was on even though the crankcase had plenty of oil and had only done a few hundred miles since the last service. The other one is getting modified to go in a Ruckus frame, which could be pretty excellent.Syd wrote:az_slynch wrote:On Saturday, Ron at ScootOver let me poke through two Hooligan engines that were in for rebuild...
The majority is always sane - Nessus
- Mikestib1
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Re: Not top speed
The exhaust system makes it sound faster.. The switch to Dr. Pulley 11g sliders made it quicker and kept the engine revs more in the power band up hills with the same throttle. With fuel injection you don't need an ECU ref lash unless you fool with the intake side like throw away the stock air box and filrer and install an open filteraz_slynch wrote:Bill, an exhaust alone won't add more speed if the induction path is stock. The new exhaust may flow better, but it can only flow as well as the induction path. Might look for a performance air filter and then reset your ECU. A PGO Libra or X-Hot should have the right filter.skipper20 wrote:All I know is I'm getting the exact same 59.8 GPS confirmed top speed as I was getting with the Hooli's stock exhaust. Very disappointing. Been thinking about getting the Scooterworks performance transmission kit installed but I don't want to be doubly disappointed. I'll probably just stay with what I have and be satisfied with it.
Not claiming filters are guaranteed to make power, but I did 1gr heavier Dr. Pulley sliders and a performance air filter on my Yager; with a fresh belt and tires, it maxed out at 77mph. When new, it struggled to hit 72mph. Mileage to loosen up the motor, good oil and a few well-considered tuning steps can make gains.
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe
- Mikestib1
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11 hp is only so much
The 170i is a 2 valve engine. The fuel injection makes it run great hot or cold. To go fast with the Genuine brand buy a Blur 220i.
Or enjoy the Buddy for what it is, fun, reliable, unique.
Or enjoy the Buddy for what it is, fun, reliable, unique.
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe
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What is your realistic top speed, i.e. gps confirmed? Would you consider the Smax to be safe on the Interstates?k1dude wrote:I love the Buddy for how small and flickable it is.
I love the Smax for it's smooth power and speed.
Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
- Mikestib1
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Top speed
Actual is 71 to 73 depending on wind conditions. I only ride interstates if I have to. There is a good S max vs Burgman 200 on line review by Revzilla. I agree with their conclusion. But for my needs the Yamaha is great. The Suzuki Burgman 200 is too big in the downtown area where I live. I don't like its style,reminds me of luxo cruiser scooters 400 to 650cc. I also didn't want to spend the $5k.
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe
- k1dude
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When I rode my friend's SMAX, I didn't get to GPS confirm my speed. But it had nice acceleration and a smooth throttle response. It was like riding a Cadillac. Very smooth and powerful for a 155. My friend (the SMAX owner) was riding behind me on my Buddy 125 and I dropped her like she was walking.skipper20 wrote:What is your realistic top speed, i.e. gps confirmed? Would you consider the Smax to be safe on the Interstates?k1dude wrote:I love the Buddy for how small and flickable it is.
I love the Smax for it's smooth power and speed.
Bill in Seattle but currently wintering in Tucson
'15 170i Hooligan Titanium (AZ scoot)
It would be fine on the highway for very short stretches. I wouldn't feel comfortable for an extended highway ride on any 2 wheeler that couldn't accelerate easily to 85 mph. But that's because everyone does 75 to 80 (65 posted) in my area. If your highway speeds are slower in your area (less than 65), it might be fine.
Keep in mind that the SMAX is a very large scooter and handles accordingly. It's similar in size and handling to 400 cc and 650 cc scooters. Strangely, despite the large size of the scooter, the cockpit is made for smaller riders. I'm 6 feet tall and was uncomfortable in the cockpit. It would probably be fine for anyone under 5'10".
- Mikestib1
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S max
The cockpit is tight if you have long legs. Agreed. But keeping weight on the front wheel is the purpose. I'm very happy with mine and it's not even broken in, the brakes are strong and progressive. It's like a Sportbike scooter.
50 motorcycles and scooters from age 16 to 67. Loved every one but always had to sell one to buy the next, damn shame of economics. After spine surgery it's been all scooters. The light weight and CVT transmissions will let me ride as long as I breathe