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Unsteady Idle

 
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HanShan
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 87
Location: North Carolina
2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Unsteady Idle Reply with quote

My 2013 Blur 220i idle is unsteady, fluctuating between 1500 and 1800 with a predictable pattern. I took my bike to a mechanic and he did not seem interested in helping me figure it out and just said the air mixture might be off. Did not even say he could run the diagnostics. It is riding great but I just do not know if this might lead to problems down the road.

Any ideas where to start trouble shooting? Fuel filter maybe? I know this will probably get a big "no" from everyone, but what about gas additives that might clean the carb?

Yeah, I know this is not in the Blur section, but it is about unsteady idle and I thought it would pertain to the general audience.

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babblefish
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2006 Blur 180, 2008 Buddy St. Tropez

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, your Blur is fuel injected, so no carb.

There might be a vacuum leak somewhere between the throttle body and the head. Check the spark plug for tightness also. This could cause fluctuations in the idle. The easiest way to check for a leak is to spray some carb cleaner, such as Berryman's, around the throttle body and head while the engine is running. Don't spray a lot, just mist the area. If there is a leak, the engine RPM will stumble as it tries to burn the carb cleaner that gets sucked in.
The next thing to check is the valve adjustment, especially the intake.
Make sure the two nuts securing the exhaust to the head are tight.

If any of these things aren't right, it could cause an error in the O2 readings that the ECU sees.

Let us know what you find.

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PhillyKick
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the 220i engine regulate idle? On larger, fuel injected engines (aka cars) there's usually an idle air controller, basically an automatic throttle. Sometimes they get clogged and can't open and close like they need to, leading to rough, unsteady, or fluctuating idles (or cars that stall at idle)
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babblefish
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2006 Blur 180, 2008 Buddy St. Tropez

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PGO FI system has an idle air controller, too. They call it the ISC, or Idle Speed Controller. Like in cars, it is controlled by the ECU and it's job is to allow enough air into a bypass port and into the intake manifold to maintain a set idle speed. It sits on top and off to the side of the throttle body (see photo).

Apparently, there is a initialization procedure that may correct the following problems:

1) Hard starting
2) Uneven idle speed
3) Some other unstable engine issues

The procedure is to:

1) Turn off the engine, if it is running
2) Make sure the key is in the "off" position
3) Turn the throttle to wide open and hold it there
4) Turn the key to the "on" position
5) Listen for some tones from the ISC
6) Release the throttle after the ISC goes quiet
7) Turn the key to the "off" position
Done

This is from a PGO service manual. Might be worth a try to see if it solves the uneven idle.

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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going to try the throttle thing this morning. Will let you know what happens. Thanks, because it would sure be easier to do that than take apart the bike right now.
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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

babblefish wrote:
The PGO FI system has an idle air controller, too. They call it the ISC, or Idle Speed Controller. Like in cars, it is controlled by the ECU and it's job is to allow enough air into a bypass port and into the intake manifold to maintain a set idle speed. It sits on top and off to the side of the throttle body (see photo).

Apparently, there is a initialization procedure that may correct the following problems:

1) Hard starting
2) Uneven idle speed
3) Some other unstable engine issues

The procedure is to:

1) Turn off the engine, if it is running
2) Make sure the key is in the "off" position
3) Turn the throttle to wide open and hold it there
4) Turn the key to the "on" position
5) Listen for some tones from the ISC
6) Release the throttle after the ISC goes quiet
7) Turn the key to the "off" position
Done

This is from a PGO service manual. Might be worth a try to see if it solves the uneven idle.



Drats. Nothing happened. No sounds or nothing.

Guess it is time for me to break open the service manual.

Oh, I meant to ask, what size socket do I need for the spark plug?

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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what really pisses me off? When I went to my Genuine Authorized Mechanic he said the spark plug would never be the cause of idle issues, yet the manual says:

(Cool Start-up normal but idle speed unstable with warm-up finished
General trouble location: 1. Water in fuel; 2. Engine temperature sensor; 3. Spark plug; 4. Air throttle and idle air bypass; 5. Air intake; 6. ISC; 7. Engine mechanism.

So I will start with the plug since the guy who I bought it from said he just put in a new plug. I also think the last time he change the oil he did not use motorcycle oil so...

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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this in another tread to reset the ECU...

Key off or better out of the ignition. Disconnect the battery positive for about 5 mins, hook it back up then hold the throttle wide open, turn the key to on..listen for the "whir"...release the throttle and turn the key off.

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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HanShan wrote:
Found this in another tread to reset the ECU...

Key off or better out of the ignition. Disconnect the battery positive for about 5 mins, hook it back up then hold the throttle wide open, turn the key to on..listen for the "whir"...release the throttle and turn the key off.


That did nothing as well. I heard no whir. It jut made me reset my clock. Smile

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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, things I did so far:

1) Checked the plug. Made sure it was tight and checked gap. Plug seemed a bit "dirty" near the gap (see pictures below).

2) Tightened the clamps around the air intake hoses, they were a little loose.

3) Tried ISC initialization, for some reason it does not seem to do anything like make the sounds the service manual says it should.

Here are pictures and videos:
https://goo.gl/photos/PaAE5hwKnQQ9KS4V7

Wondering if the ticking means I need my valves adjusted...?

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joebug
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2012 Vespa GTS300 Super '06 Aprilia Scarabeo 250

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link provided doesn't take me anywhere... it just swirls around and nothing loads up...
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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joebug wrote:
The link provided doesn't take me anywhere... it just swirls around and nothing loads up...


It's not me, it's you. Smile

It is a google photo library, maybe you have javascipt off or something?

Try this link:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMZ36HXM5seUBpPfJ7UnqKKfEFBktzV-00ym_KRyQwQ16p3IgXdD6tluW6zfTgSlA?key=Zk5uRFlZTGJEaElwWVd0RGI5ckJXbVdHYVYzendB


I see you live in the Hudson Valley. I grew up in Nyack!

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joebug
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2012 Vespa GTS300 Super '06 Aprilia Scarabeo 250

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah Nyack, not too far from from me, even closer to my job in Katonah.. just over the Tappan Zee bridge...

So I just tried the link on my iPad and got it ... I would take the throttle body off, spray it down with some throttle body cleaner and make sure the throttle assembly is moving freely etc...basic stuff, I would then do all the maintenance on it to eliminate all other possiblities..ie, adjust the valves, replace the air filter and replace that plug. Then go from there... this a starting point as process of elimination to determine the cause.

Also, look into the fuel injector.. I'm not sure about this model?. injectors are known for making the ticking sound... it could be partially clogged, or just faulty.
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joebug
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a service manual online... I can't post it here with my phone but says it could be a dirty nozzle...assuming the nozzle is the injector... I would try some injector cleaner fuel additive... or if you're handy ..just remove the fuel injector and clean it...alot of You tube videos show you how to do it...not hard to do.
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HanShan
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Location: North Carolina
2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joebug wrote:
Oh yeah Nyack, not too far from from me, even closer to my job in Katonah.. just over the Tappan Zee bridge...

So I just tried the link on my iPad and got it ... I would take the throttle body off, spray it down with some throttle body cleaner and make sure the throttle assembly is moving freely etc...basic stuff, I would then do all the maintenance on it to eliminate all other possiblities..ie, adjust the valves, replace the air filter and replace that plug. Then go from there... this a starting point as process of elimination to determine the cause.

Also, look into the fuel injector.. I'm not sure about this model?. injectors are known for making the ticking sound... it could be partially clogged, or just faulty.


Good stuff. Thanks. Gonna try the fuel injector cleaner or maybe take it apart. Just do not want to mess it up since it is my only transportation and I am poor as dirt.

Been thinking also, after reading some other posts, that maybe it is because I have been using 87 octane and I should be using 91.

I checked the air filter yesterday and it looked a little dirty so just going to replace that anyway.

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pcsguy88
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2013 Genuine Blur 220i, 2009 125cc Sym Fiddle II (R.I.P.)

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is exactly the same Han. It stalls all the time and does not smooth out until 2,200 RPMs. Resetting the ECU only made the bike smoother while moving. The good news is that the 220i's had a service notice and were all suppose to have the valves adjusted by the dealers before sale. My Genuine shop told me this and put the request into Genuine for the warranty approval since we can guess the original dealer never touched the bike in the 3yrs it sat on their floor. I'll let you know what happens.
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HanShan
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Location: North Carolina
2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcsguy88 wrote:
Mine is exactly the same Han. It stalls all the time and does not smooth out until 2,200 RPMs. Resetting the ECU only made the bike smoother while moving. The good news is that the 220i's had a service notice and were all suppose to have the valves adjusted by the dealers before sale. My Genuine shop told me this and put the request into Genuine for the warranty approval since we can guess the original dealer never touched the bike in the 3yrs it sat on their floor. I'll let you know what happens.


Cool, thanks for the info. I am going to bring this up at my shop next month. I have pretty much done everything else I can anyway (except replace the not so bad looking air filter) and nothing has changed.

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pcsguy88
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2013 Genuine Blur 220i, 2009 125cc Sym Fiddle II (R.I.P.)

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The manual seems pretty insistent about warming the Blur up for a couple minutes before riding, so I have tried that the past 2 days and have not stalled, seems smoother. I've gone days without stalling before and then stalled 3x's the next day, so I'm not holding my breath.

Hard to say if it's gas related because you never know if you are actually getting 91 or whatever the person before you filled the hose with. When I did try 87 for two straight tanks, I couldn't see what was in my mirrors at stop lights.

The Blur is certainly a finicky beast. Made to run, not sit.
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Mikestib1
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Idle problem Reply with quote

The first thing I'd do is buy some Chevron Techron FI fuel conditioner and run a tank of gas with 2 ounces of Techron. It's worked for me on both a BMW 650 and a 300 Ninja when both had idle problems when the engines were hot, like after a 20 minute ride. Bought it at Walmart.
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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Idle problem Reply with quote

Mikestib1 wrote:
The first thing I'd do is buy some Chevron Techron FI fuel conditioner and run a tank of gas with 2 ounces of Techron. It's worked for me on both a BMW 650 and a 300 Ninja when both had idle problems when the engines were hot, like after a 20 minute ride. Bought it at Walmart.


I put an ounce of seafoam in it and there was no change.

Also, my unsteady idle happens right away after warm up and the RPM slows down and is there whenever I stop. But it rides great and I have been getting 68MPG.

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pcsguy88
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2013 Genuine Blur 220i, 2009 125cc Sym Fiddle II (R.I.P.)

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Idle problem Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, my unsteady idle happens right away after warm up and the RPM slows down and is there whenever I stop.


Agreed, mine is still way rougher than it should be, but has been less apt to stall after letting it warm up. It also gets worse as the engine gets hot from rides over the normal 20 minute commute.

In the end, it just feels like it is being choked to death at the 1500-1800 idle, but holding the throttle at 2200-2400 makes the shakes go away completely. A quick twist of the idle screw would solve it if it had one.
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joebug
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you ever remove and clean the injector? I remember working at a Saab dealership and one of the things I did was clean injectors.. they had a special jig setup to do it...i removed the injector and placed it in the jig and pumped this handle and it pumped a cleaner at high pressure into the injector and into a glass bowl...after a couple pumps you could see the difference it made in the spray pattern of the injector, anyway, I'm not sure that's the issue with your scoot but it sounds like a fuel delivery issue to me and the repair manual I found online suggests with the symptom you described to check the nozzle/injector....just saying..
Google this: genuine blur service manual
download the pdf and scroll to page 31...
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scootergrind
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2011 SS Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idle weirdness seems to be a common issue with the FI 220. Mine has done the same thing from day one. I've just gotten used to it as it hasn't affected the overall performance of the bike. About the only thing that will sometimes work is to simply shut the bike off and restart it - don't have a clue why it makes a difference but it often does even out the idle.

Just one of the few quirks ya gotta love about the Blur.
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HanShan
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2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joebug wrote:
Did you ever remove and clean the injector? I remember working at a Saab dealership and one of the things I did was clean injectors.. they had a special jig setup to do it...i removed the injector and placed it in the jig and pumped this handle and it pumped a cleaner at high pressure into the injector and into a glass bowl...after a couple pumps you could see the difference it made in the spray pattern of the injector, anyway, I'm not sure that's the issue with your scoot but it sounds like a fuel delivery issue to me and the repair manual I found online suggests with the symptom you described to check the nozzle/injector....just saying..
Google this: genuine blur service manual
download the pdf and scroll to page 31...


No, I just put some seafoam in it, but I do not think clogged injectors are it. The bike only has 7000 miles on it and besides the idle it runs great.

It could be the throttle position sensor or the valves I feel...

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joebug
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

definitely need to remove parts and clean them. doesn't matter about mileage...carbon deposits, built up residues of unburnt gases create issues... with smaller engines it's more noticeable to detect. the service manual clearly states the problem and the sequences to fix the detected problem... seafoam was a start, now onto removing and cleaning... if you're not mechanically inclined or have the tools to do it then I suggest bringing it to a genuine dealer or scooter repair shop for repair. as you said it's your primary mode of transportation... this could escalate to a problem that could potentially leave you stranded on the side of the road. your choice...
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HanShan
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joebug wrote:
this could escalate to a problem that could potentially leave you stranded on the side of the road. your choice...


Not really my choice. I am disabled and broke as sh@t.

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joebug
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2007-Gasoline-Injection/dp/B00CPL8PSG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1475202201&sr=8-1&keywords=Liqui+Moly+Jectron+Gasoline+Fuel+Injection+Cleaner&linkCode=ll1&tag=injectorcleanersmcnt-20&linkId=7e4f20a743377be6163d4c067060f061

supposed to be the best fuel injector cleaner out there... Made in Germany... TUV approved...
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HanShan
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update: My idle seems to be stabilizing after two tanks of 93 octane.
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joebug
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's a good thing... try to run non ethanol gas too if you can find it. here is a place to search in your area.

http://pure-gas.org/
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pcsguy88
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2013 Genuine Blur 220i, 2009 125cc Sym Fiddle II (R.I.P.)

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... 91 is less shaky than 87, but I do not have 93 in my area to try. All my ethanol free pumps are strictly 87. Maybe I'll go get some octane boost and give that a try while waiting on Genuine to respond about the valve adjustment.
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Syd
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Higher octane fuel isn't 'cleaner' or 'better', unless the manual calls for it, not to mention the difference between octane rating systems.

What does the manual recommend?

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pcsguy88
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manual wants 91 which I always pump, but the whole "there's a gallon of fuel in the line from the person before" makes it impossible to know what I get. I understand octane is all about engine knock, so I figure that could certainly help with blurry mirrors and stalling at stops. As I said earlier, there is no doubt mine is choking, so hopefully Geniune gets the ball rolling on the valve adjustments soon. I have no problem trying simple remedies until then.
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HanShan
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syd wrote:
Higher octane fuel isn't 'cleaner' or 'better', unless the manual calls for it, not to mention the difference between octane rating systems.


Not better, but definitely different. But it is better, for my bike at least, because it runs, uhm, better.

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HanShan
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my idle is still wonky.

I tried 87 non-ethanol gas and that had no effect.

The frustrating part now is that it comes and goes but over all the bike is running smoother. Guess I need to save some cash and get the valves checked...

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pcsguy88
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2013 Genuine Blur 220i, 2009 125cc Sym Fiddle II (R.I.P.)

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just rolled over 1000 miles this weekend and my Blur is definitely getting smoother. Now when it stalls it just seems to lull itself asleep instead of violently choking to death. Bitchy days are getting further apart. Apparently the solution is just to ride more and longer.
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psymple
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Not far from Nyack either-right over the border in NJ)

I picked up a 12 buddy 170i with less that 300 miles this summer. It just turned 1200 today. It idles rough and when I have to go over the mountain I live on the other side of, the power fluctuated horribly. My 09, 125 runs much better and handles the hill well. Gonna try some of this stuff, hope it helps.
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psymple
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Location: NJ
Buddy 125

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, just put a Prima exhaust on it and it sounds like it is partly backfiring randomly especially when the power fluctuates (they both have the same exhaust, the other doesn't do that). Is there any way to adjust the timing? I know you can check it, but haven't seen how to adjust. Thanks
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HanShan
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 87
Location: North Carolina
2103 Genuine Blur 220i

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psymple wrote:
Also, just put a Prima exhaust on it and it sounds like it is partly backfiring randomly especially when the power fluctuates (they both have the same exhaust, the other doesn't do that). Is there any way to adjust the timing? I know you can check it, but haven't seen how to adjust. Thanks


This would be better asked in the Blur section.

But, if you are backfiring you might just start with looking at your sparkplugs. I do not know if the 170 had a CDI but this is what it says in the blur manual:

"This scooter is using CDI set, it is no need to adjust ignition timing.
If ignition timing is not correct, check the CDI sets and AC magneto, change it if it is "

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psymple
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Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 14
Location: NJ
Buddy 125

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plug looks fine except it is more 'black' than one I took out of my last 170 (with nearly 10k miles) which makes me think it is running too rich/lean or something above my head. I will look into a CDI...
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Dooglas
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 3934
Location: Oregon City, OR
Buddy 125, GTS300, Typhoon 125

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HanShan wrote:
I do not know if the 170 had a CDI but this is what it says in the blur manual.........

All modern scooters have a CDI for ignition timing. That means the timing can't be reset, but the CDI can fail.
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