Upgrading stator?

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babblefish
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Upgrading stator?

Post by babblefish »

I'm thinking about upgrading the charging system in my Blur. Has anyone converted their 8-pole stator to an 11-pole stator? The reason I want to do this is because my stock 8-pole stator doesn't seem to be able to keep up with the power demands of the HID headlight so the battery keeps going flat. I tested the charging voltage and it never gets above 12.7 volts or so. A heavy current draw, such as from the headlight, could cause this low voltage reading. I've tried a new voltage regulator and new battery, but nothing changes. One thing I haven't tried yet is to disconnect the headlight to see if the charging voltage goes up.

I know that the conversion requires an 11-pole stator (obviously), 3-phase voltage regulator, 11-pole flywheel/rotor, and modifications to the wiring harness. If anyone has any insight into this, I'd appreciate your input.
If I'm to be the pioneer for this conversion (at least on this board), then I'll document it and take pictures to help others who might be interested.
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Post by sc00ter »

A friend had a 2 stroke Zuma and they are notorious for weak and wimpy stators. Dont even think heated grips! But, he got them to work. He used a car audio capacitor to keep the grips running nice and hot. Never looked to see how it was wired in but he had a competition level audio system in his car that he did himself (owned a stereo shop to) and figured that a capacitor for a amp (1.5 ferrite I think he used?) would work for the heated grips on his Zuma. He offered to capacitor improve my Zuma 125 to run Oxford heated grips but I ended up trading it. Funny side note: Oxford sucks! Their web site stated the "scooter line" low draw heated grips were approved for my Zuma 125. If you had them on high and sat at a stop light the scooter would stall and then not have enough power left to restart it! Plus, no kickstart because it was EFI. The grips drew to much power and didnt have an auto-off low power option to prevent overdraw. Sorry for the ramble but thats my 2 cents!
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Post by babblefish »

sc00ter wrote:A friend had a 2 stroke Zuma and they are notorious for weak and wimpy stators. Dont even think heated grips! But, he got them to work. He used a car audio capacitor to keep the grips running nice and hot. Never looked to see how it was wired in but he had a competition level audio system in his car that he did himself (owned a stereo shop to) and figured that a capacitor for a amp (1.5 ferrite I think he used?) would work for the heated grips on his Zuma. He offered to capacitor improve my Zuma 125 to run Oxford heated grips but I ended up trading it. Funny side note: Oxford sucks! Their web site stated the "scooter line" low draw heated grips were approved for my Zuma 125. If you had them on high and sat at a stop light the scooter would stall and then not have enough power left to restart it! Plus, no kickstart because it was EFI. The grips drew to much power and didnt have an auto-off low power option to prevent overdraw. Sorry for the ramble but thats my 2 cents!
Thanks for your insight, but a capacitor won't solve my problem. Besides being quite large, It acts only as a small power reservoir which would not help keep my battery charged since the stock single phase alternator can't keep up with the current demands. BTW, the capacitor is wired across the battery terminals.
An 11-pole stator is a 3-phase alternator which can generate much more power for every engine revolution. But, nothing is free so the price for the additional power is given in the form of a little more drag on the engine. The price for the parts is low enough (less than $80) that I can experiment with it to see if I can get it to work. From my research, it should be possible. The size and mounting configuration of the stator, ignition timing sensor, and the rotor are the same as the stock parts. The hardest part is integrating the wiring differences into the stock harness. When I figure it out, I'll post the where's and how's.
Last edited by babblefish on Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jrsjr
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Post by jrsjr »

Babblefish, do you have a wiring diagram for the Blur? Which stator are you thinking about using? Which voltage regulator are you thinking about using?
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Post by babblefish »

jrsjr wrote:Babblefish, do you have a wiring diagram for the Blur? Which stator are you thinking about using? Which voltage regulator are you thinking about using?
I have the wiring diagram from the GMAX service manual. The stator is part of a kit that I'm thinking about ordering from eBay. The vendor is in Puerto Rico, but with all the weather issues there, I worry that they may not be able to send anything out for awhile. Guess I'll contact them first to check their status.
This kit includes an 11-pole stator, flywheel, rectifier, and universal wiring harness. I won't be using the harness, but the connectors and wires will come in handy for modifying my Blur's harness.

Doing some research, it seems there is a debate on whether or not a special 11-pole flywheel is required. Some say they've been successful using the stock 8-pole flywheel with an 11-pole stator.

Here's the link to the kit on eBay. At only $70, it's a bargain.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOOTER-GY6-15 ... 1438.l2649

I found some wiring diagrams online showing how an 11-pole stator is connected in a GY6 electrical system, so that will be a great help.
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Typical connection diagram for an 11-pole stator
Typical connection diagram for an 11-pole stator
11 pole wiring 3a.jpg (94.96 KiB) Viewed 1820 times
11-pole stator kit on eBay
11-pole stator kit on eBay
11 pole.jpg (31.27 KiB) Viewed 1820 times
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Post by jrsjr »

Excellent! it looks like you are way ahead of the game. Except for the fact that the vendor is in PR. :( I hope his inventory didn't get flooded and he has electricity.

Good Luck!!!
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Post by babblefish »

jrsjr wrote:Excellent! it looks like you are way ahead of the game. Except for the fact that the vendor is in PR. :( I hope his inventory didn't get flooded and he has electricity.

Good Luck!!!
Yeah, I hope they're still able to do business. The name of their eBay store is GY6racingteam and I've ordered parts from them before (my new clutch amongst other things) with excellent results.
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Post by babblefish »

Here's another diagram that's easier to follow:
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Easier 11-pole stator wiring diagram
Easier 11-pole stator wiring diagram
11 pole wiring 2.jpg (45.11 KiB) Viewed 1811 times
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Post by jrsjr »

Honestly, if the kit comes complete as you have shown, it really should be a snap to install. (Easy for me to say from here, I know) The hardest part will be pulling the flywheel and installing the correct new flywheel. I would resist the temptation to run the old 8-pole one. Otherwise, though, you will be replacing all the wiring on the 3-Phase Alternating-Current side of the circuit, so it won't be like you are trying to kludge two electrical systems together. On the DC side, if the Blur has a DC powered enricher that has the same wiring, you will be golden. Otherwise you may have to arrange a little workaround for that circuit. This sounds great to me. Make sure you fuse appropriately and you should be good to go.
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Post by babblefish »

Moving ahead with my 11-pole stator conversion. Just ordered these parts from eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182819013841 - 7-wire voltage regulator
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOOTER-GY6-12 ... 1438.l2649 - 11-pole stator w/11-pole flywheel
https://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Kits-6-3mm- ... 2749.l2649 - 6.3mm motorcycle electrical connector set

I decided on these particular parts because they're described as "high quality" by the vendor. Yeah, I know the vendor can say anything he wants about his products, but the stator in particular does look pretty good compared to what I was originally going to get. It's suppose to use a heavier gage wire in the windings. I only hope the ignition timing trigger pole on the flywheel is in the same place as my stock flywheel. As far as the voltage regulator, they are available in several flavors, meaning 5, 6, 7-wire types. The Blur, as well as the Buddy uses a 5-wire regulator. Looking at the wiring diagram for the Blur, I felt the 7-wire regulator would integrate the easiest into the wiring harness. We shall see. The electrical connector set should come in handy for any wiring changes needed. I know I'll be needing at least the 3-pin and 4-pin connectors. And, at that price, I'll have all the connectors I'll need for any future projects. The only other possible concern is the CDI module as this conversion (I believe) requires an AC CDI module. I'm not entirely sure what the Blur uses. Must do some research on this.

If this conversion is successful, I'm hoping there will be enough power to run heated gloves or a heated vest, or both. :)

BTW, jrsjr: pulling the flywheel is easy with a flywheel puller (which I have) :D
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11 pole stator.jpg
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Post by babblefish »

Received the stator, flywheel, and voltage regulator that I ordered today. The stator and flywheel look to be pretty good quality. The magnets in the flywheel have good magnetic strength, but it is an 8-pole flywheel. Hopefully, this will still work well. The voltage regulator did not survive it's trip very well as you can see in the photo. I've contacted the seller to see what he'll do about it.
This is getting exciting!
Attachments
Hope the ignition timing on this matches the the stock flywheel.
Hope the ignition timing on this matches the the stock flywheel.
IMG_6380.JPG (92.58 KiB) Viewed 1761 times
VR has a boo-boo...
VR has a boo-boo...
IMG_6377.JPG (100.98 KiB) Viewed 1761 times
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Post by Ootscoot »

We had a 2008 Buddy 150 in for a new battery. After testing the voltage, it was only putting out 12.4 to 12.7 volts@ 6k + rpms . Replaced the regulater, and it got 13.7v + ...I see that you've already done that, so next step would be stator. The pick up coil picks up on one spot, so if those match should spark ok. If the headlights come on when ignition is on - usually D.C., if they only come on when engine is running, then likely an A.C. System...
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Post by babblefish »

Ootscoot wrote:We had a 2008 Buddy 150 in for a new battery. After testing the voltage, it was only putting out 12.4 to 12.7 volts@ 6k + rpms . Replaced the regulater, and it got 13.7v + ...I see that you've already done that, so next step would be stator. The pick up coil picks up on one spot, so if those match should spark ok. If the headlights come on when ignition is on - usually D.C., if they only come on when engine is running, then likely an A.C. System...
Thanks, Ootscoot. I got the same voltage readings on my Blur, and yes, even with a new regulator. My headlight only comes on when the engine is running so I guess it uses an AC CDI system. This is good news. And FWIW, the new voltage regulator is about twice the size of the original one. Hopefully, that translates into a higher output current for charging the battery (particularly good for short trips) and the ability to run accessories.

If this conversion works out well, I may do the same on my Buddy, if for nothing else, to allow running a decent headlight.
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Post by babblefish »

OK, so they sent me another voltage regulator and I didn't have to return the original one. Normally this would be a good thing, except the second one is dirty and corroded, like it'd been left outside for a while. Basically, it looks used. Sad way of doing business. Guess I'll use the original one. It should still work fine even with a few broken cooling fins.
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Post by jrsjr »

babblefish wrote:OK, so they sent me another voltage regulator and I didn't have to return the original one. Normally this would be a good thing, except the second one is dirty and corroded, like it'd been left outside for a while. Basically, it looks used. Sad way of doing business. Guess I'll use the original one. It should still work fine even with a few broken cooling fins.
Be sure to round off the broken edges so they don't snag wires or anything. If the regulator works, it should be good to go even minus the broken fins because you live in San Francisco where you generally don't get the kind of Summer heat that some of us do.
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Post by Aloha Joe »

I know OP is already on his way down a certain path, but I thought I'd share some experience I had with motorcycles:

The standard for a long time has been to use a 'shunt' regulator. What that means is the stator is constantly making power, and the regulator switches between the battery (when voltage drops) or basically a short circuit back through the frame and stator when the battery is full. What this ends up doing is putting a lot of demand on the stator because it's 'on' all the time. I don't fully recall the reason for this next part, but the 'shunt' regulators don't really charge the battery at idle - they require a bit higher RPM to hit a true charging voltage. I think it has something to do with the way the regulator switches, and to avoid over charging the battery.

Anyhow, the newer breed of regulators are often called 'series' regulators, and they use something like transistors to open/close the circuit between the stator and the battery. In this case, the stator runs cooler because it's only making power when the battery drops below voltage, and the technology allows the voltage to stay pretty constant 13.5-14.2 regardless of idle, RPM, etc.

Now whenever I work on a charging system, I check what kind of regulator the bike has, and see if there's a 'series' option available for it. Everything works better - starts are faster and stronger, the battery stays healthy longer, etc.

Just my $.02. Sorry it was so long!
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Post by k1dude »

That might explain why Buddy stators often don't last very long. They're probably the shunt style. Thanks for the info. I wonder if a series style is available for the Buddy?
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Post by youkiddin »

this thread on the triumph forum kind of covers this http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple- ... grade.html
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Post by Aloha Joe »

If stators commonly burn up quickly, it's definitely possible it's from a shunt regulator. It doesn't take long at all to start burning up the epoxy on the coils on the old Suzuki bikes. A new stator looks shot after only a couple of months.
youkiddin wrote:this thread on the triumph forum kind of covers this http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple- ... grade.html
The one I got for my Suzuki is the 'SH775' which came used from a Polaris 4-wheeler. It's basically the same as what's linked above. I bought it on eBay for not much money. The bike totally perked up when I swapped it.

Lots of guys are using the Triumph wiring harness for the plug - I believe it's only like $12.
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Post by jrsjr »

Thanks for the link to that thread about the shunt vs series regulators! I skimmed it once and printed it so I can read it again and keep it for reference.

I have a question, though. And you guys know way better than me, so I am asking to understand, not start a dispute. However, the Buddy 125 stator assembly I am familiar with has two parts, the built-in ignition coil and the actual "stator" itself. Again, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the least reliable part of that assembly is the ignition pickup, not the stator itself. The gist of the above-mentioned thread and discussion here has been about the stator itself. And this is a fairly unique thing to the GY6-derived product which is sold in the USA as the Genuine Buddy 125. Most GY6-derived products have a separate ignition pickup which attaches to the stator assembly, which is why our stators are a slightly different animal than the generic GY6 "Stators" which are sold out there. Again, I'm throwing this out there for discussion and clarification, not to dispute anything anyone has said.

And, to be clear, I am completely unfamiliar with the stator in the Blur, which is what this thread started out to be about. If the OP would prefer, I would be happy to break this discussion out into a separate thread because this is very interesting and probably generally of interest to the members.
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Post by charlie55 »

jrsjr wrote:Thanks for the link to that thread about the shunt vs series regulators! I skimmed it once and printed it so I can read it again and keep it for reference.

I have a question, though. And you guys know way better than me, so I am asking to understand, not start a dispute. However, the Buddy 125 stator assembly I am familiar with has two parts, the built-in ignition coil and the actual "stator" itself. Again, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the least reliable part of that assembly is the ignition pickup, not the stator itself. The gist of the above-mentioned thread and discussion here has been about the stator itself. And this is a fairly unique thing to the GY6-derived product which is sold in the USA as the Genuine Buddy 125. Most GY6-derived products have a separate ignition pickup which attaches to the stator assembly, which is why our stators are a slightly different animal than the generic GY6 "Stators" which are sold out there. Again, I'm throwing this out there for discussion and clarification, not to dispute anything anyone has said.

And, to be clear, I am completely unfamiliar with the stator in the Blur, which is what this thread started out to be about. If the OP would prefer, I would be happy to break this discussion out into a separate thread because this is very interesting and probably generally of interest to the members.
I'm a little unclear as to your description of the stator differences. I thought that the standard layout was basically that "n" coils of the stator generate the running voltage and 1 coil provides the ignition charge to the CDI. The external pickup that triggers the CDI discharge into the ignition coil mounts next to the flywheel and is set off by the passage of a permanent magnet on that flywheel. What is is that's different with the Buddy?
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Post by jrsjr »

charlie55 wrote:
jrsjr wrote:Thanks for the link to that thread about the shunt vs series regulators! I skimmed it once and printed it so I can read it again and keep it for reference.

I have a question, though. And you guys know way better than me, so I am asking to understand, not start a dispute. However, the Buddy 125 stator assembly I am familiar with has two parts, the built-in ignition coil and the actual "stator" itself. Again, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the least reliable part of that assembly is the ignition pickup, not the stator itself. The gist of the above-mentioned thread and discussion here has been about the stator itself. And this is a fairly unique thing to the GY6-derived product which is sold in the USA as the Genuine Buddy 125. Most GY6-derived products have a separate ignition pickup which attaches to the stator assembly, which is why our stators are a slightly different animal than the generic GY6 "Stators" which are sold out there. Again, I'm throwing this out there for discussion and clarification, not to dispute anything anyone has said.

And, to be clear, I am completely unfamiliar with the stator in the Blur, which is what this thread started out to be about. If the OP would prefer, I would be happy to break this discussion out into a separate thread because this is very interesting and probably generally of interest to the members.
I'm a little unclear as to your description of the stator differences. I thought that the standard layout was basically that "n" coils of the stator generate the running voltage and 1 coil provides the ignition charge to the CDI. The external pickup that triggers the CDI discharge into the ignition coil mounts next to the flywheel and is set off by the passage of a permanent magnet on that flywheel. What is is that's different with the Buddy?
I may be completely wrong, if so I apologize. What I was trying to say is that the electrical "Stator Assembly" on the Genuine Buddy 125 is really two completely different electrical components - the stator coils which generate electrical power and the ignition pickup coil which generates the timing pulse that triggers the spark to the spark plug.

The discussion on the Triumph site about shunt vs series regulators is aimed at trying to preserve the first component - the electrical power-generating stator - by reducing the duty cycle of that component. However, I was trying to make the distinction between that situation and the Genuine Buddy where the intermittent failures that have plagued folks from the early days of this site have largely been caused by the second electrical component in the "stator assembly" - the ignition pickup coil. For some reason, these wire-wound ignition pickup coils have been problematical since the early days of of motorcycle design which is why the different motorcycle manufacturers couldn't wait to get rid of them in favor of solid-state "Hall-Effect" sensors.

The reason why I mentioned the GY6-derived assembly is that some GY6-derived machines have a separate ignition pickup coil which can be changed separately from the "electrical stator." They are two parts which are numbered and purchased separately. Not so on the Buddy as the photo below shows where they are combined into one assembly.

My point is that it's not yet clear to me that a series regulator would be a huge benefit to Genuine Buddy 125 machines, because my understanding is that it's not the electrical generating part of the stator assembly which generally has been causing the problem for Genuine Buddy 125 owners.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. And again, if I'm wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thanks!
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GenuineBuddyStatorAssy.JPG
GenuineBuddyStatorAssy.JPG (20.62 KiB) Viewed 1647 times
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Post by charlie55 »

Ah, now I get it.

I am willing to bet that the pickup portion of the Buddy stator is in no way electrically connected to the rest of the assembly. I mean, it would make no sense since the pickup is a completely passive device. What I'm thinking is that it's merely loomed together physically. Good way to get you to buy a whole stator when all you need is the pickup.

BTW, I think the Helix also uses a coil pickup as the CDI trigger. The wiring diagram shows it as a wire-wrapped core.

And never apologize for possibly being wrong. Wait until you're proven wrong and then claim you were misquoted.
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Post by jrsjr »

charlie55 wrote:Ah, now I get it.

I am willing to bet that the pickup portion of the Buddy stator is in no way electrically connected to the rest of the assembly. I mean, it would make no sense since the pickup is a completely passive device. What I'm thinking is that it's merely loomed together physically. Good way to get you to buy a whole stator when all you need is the pickup.

BTW, I think the Helix also uses a coil pickup as the CDI trigger. The wiring diagram shows it as a wire-wrapped core.

And never apologize for possibly being wrong. Wait until you're proven wrong and then claim you were misquoted.
I'm not surprised to hear that the Helix has a wire ignition pickup coil. That motor was designed a LONG time ago, first being sold in the USA as the motor in the 1985 CH250 and I'd be willing to bet that design was the offspring of much earlier motor designs.
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Post by babblefish »

Upon looking at the wiring diagrams for both the Blur and the Buddy 125/150, it appears that they both share the same charging/ignition setup.
The first attached picture is an excerpt from the Buddy electrical schematic. I marked out the Timing Sensor (the little black box outside of the flywheel), the Ignition/CDI Coil (the one taped-up coil in the stator), and the Charging Coils (the rest of the coils on the stator) in red. The Ignition/CDI Coil supplies power to the HV ignition coil via the CDI unit. The Timing Sensor, also known as the pulse coil, detects the little protrusion on the flywheel going around and sends a signal to the CDI unit to tell it when to fire the HV ignition coil.
So on an 8-pole stator, only seven of the coils are used to generate power for the electrical system.
The second picture is of the stock stator from my Blur.
The third picture is the ignition system from the Blur.
Hope this helps clear things up.
Attachments
Blur ignition diagram.
Blur ignition diagram.
ignition diagram.JPG (52.14 KiB) Viewed 1634 times
Blur stator. The black coil is a separate winding and supplies power to the ignition system.
Blur stator. The black coil is a separate winding and supplies power to the ignition system.
BlurStator.jpg (89.23 KiB) Viewed 1634 times
Buddy Schematic with stator explanations.
Buddy Schematic with stator explanations.
BuddyStator.JPG (50.33 KiB) Viewed 1634 times
Last edited by babblefish on Mon May 28, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by babblefish »

This has been a long drawn out project but I was finally able to put some more time into it again.

I was able to verify that it indeed is my 50W HID headlight that was drawing the alternator voltage down. When I disconnected the headlight, the voltage at the battery jumped up to almost 14V.

So back to the 11-pole stator project. I discovered that I needed a 6-wire regulator and not the 7-wire version, so I ordered one of those. With that, it looks like a pretty simple hook-up into the existing wire harness. Of the 6 wires from the regulator, 4 are connected to the new stator which leaves only 2 wires to connect to the scooter's wiring harness: one goes to the battery and the second goes to the switched +12V of the ignition. Pretty simple. I can post a wiring diagram if anyone is interested.

I decided to change all of the electrical connectors related to the charging system from the stock 2.8mm contacts to larger 6.3mm contacts to improve the amperage carrying capability.

I also looked at the Buddy's electrical system and it is similar to the Blur but is a little simpler and has even less amperage reserves. No wonder I can't upgrade the headlight with anything more powerful. The Buddy uses a 6-pole stator and a 4-wire voltage regulator. It's a pretty pitiful setup. The good news is that with a little more work, it is possible to upgrade the charging system to an 8-pole or 11-pole system. I might try installing the old 8-pole system from my Blur into my Buddy to see what happens. Or maybe I'll just go ahead and do an 11-pole system. We'll see...

The bad news is it looks like I have far more problems with my Blur than just the weak charging system. With all the hard riding I've been doing, the engine is starting to make ominous loud rattling and knocking noises. The last time it did that, the crank blew up. I haven't had a chance to look into it yet, but I'm hoping it's just something in the CVT that's come loose. Otherwise, it means pulling the engine again and tearing it apart to see what's up. Oh well, I wanted to hop it up a little more anyway, LoL. Hmm, a little larger bore, a little longer stroke, a couple of more valves...I can hear my wallet screaming now...
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Post by sc00ter »

With all the modern LED style headlights out there, why a HID? I know some car people who pulled their HID's and put in LED's, and the LED's are crazy bright with great light spread on the road. LED tech has jumped in leaps and bounds in no time. Still impressed with your stator homework!
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Post by babblefish »

sc00ter wrote:With all the modern LED style headlights out there, why a HID? I know some car people who pulled their HID's and put in LED's, and the LED's are crazy bright with great light spread on the road. LED tech has jumped in leaps and bounds in no time. Still impressed with your stator homework!
I've gone down that road with the LED's and while they are bright and draw less power, the light pattern thrown out on the road is spotty and not very even. I've tried at least three different LED setups with the same results. The problem is with the OEM headlight reflector design. It is designed to collimate the light from an incandescent bulb which radiates its light in all directions. LED replacement bulbs generally emit light from just the top and bottom. An HID on the other hand is more like a regular bulb in that it radiates light in all directions. I'm sure a dedicated LED headlight assembly that is designed for that tech would work really well, but not too easy to integrate into the Blur's body work.
Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.
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