Fuel - reg or premium??

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doscoot59
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Fuel - reg or premium??

Post by doscoot59 »

This might be a dumb question, if so, sorry, but is it best to use just Regular Unleaded or Premium? Should I just continue to use the same as the previous owner used (regular)? Want to give my new (used) Buddy all the right stuff. :D
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

If you do a search you will find a number of lengthy threads discussing this. It is a long ongoing conversation here at MB with a great deal of back and forth which is why I am avoiding opening this particular can of worms again!
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Post by Dooglas »

Yes, often discussed. Everyone has an opinion. They are not all the same :wink: .
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Post by ericalm »

viewtopic.php?t=1015#11071

I'll simply put it this way:

There's been no demonstrable benefit to using higher-octance fuel in a Buddy 125.

BUT there's a possibility that running high octane can, in fact, cause damage in the long term. It definitely adds to heat issues, which are the enemy of all engines.
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Post by bluebuddygirl »

ericalm wrote:viewtopic.php?t=1015#11071

I'll simply put it this way:

There's been no demonstrable benefit to using higher-octance fuel in a Buddy 125.

BUT there's a possibility that running high octane can, in fact, cause damage in the long term. It definitely adds to heat issues, which are the enemy of all engines.
Second that
TVB

Post by TVB »

My general approach (when it comes to many things in life) is this:

Start with the cheapest option.
If it causes problems, try something more expensive.
If not, don't.
:)
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Post by jd »

ericalm wrote:viewtopic.php?t=1015#11071

I'll simply put it this way:

There's been no demonstrable benefit to using higher-octance fuel in a Buddy 125.

BUT there's a possibility that running high octane can, in fact, cause damage in the long term. It definitely adds to heat issues, which are the enemy of all engines.
Never said better.

Some of the confusion comes from various sources that specify 92 octane for four-stroke scooters. Most of the world uses RON octane ratings, while the U.S., Canada, Brazil and some other countries use AKI octane ratings. 92 octane RON is equal to 87 octane AKI. So when a bike made in Europe, Japan, Korea or Taiwan calls for 92 octane, then it's the same stuff that gets a rating of 87 octane in the United States.

Use regular unleaded gas. It's what the manufacturers specify. It's cheaper and works great. Higher octane fuel is not "better" unless you have a high compression engine, something you're just not going to find on a stock motor scooter.

I wish people would spend less time obsessing on gasoline octane (and motor fuel composition) and spend more time riding! :D

jd
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Post by kmrcstintn »

good to know about the 'conversion' and that 87 octane can be used...after my stash of 89 octane in the gas cans is used up I will switch (also read that the Yamaha V Star can also use 87 octane)
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Post by ericalm »

kmrcstintn wrote:after my stash of 89 octane in the gas cans is used up I will switch (also read that the Yamaha V Star can also use 87 octane)
Gas will go stale, too! :)

I have a few gallons I need to get rid of at some point.
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Post by Dooglas »

ericalm wrote:Gas will go stale, too! :) I have a few gallons I need to get rid of at some point.
That is why the divine being gave us Stabil. Just put a little in the gas can and the stuff in the garage lasts much longer. :wink:
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Post by Beamster »

A small piece of information to share..
During correspondence with the Sunoco manufacturer's technical rep, I was told that higher octane fuel has less of a tendency to go bad compared to lower octane due to more additives. Now he was talking about "fuel" so one might make the assumption that it would apply to 'Gas' too.

If that is the case, then it is an advantage that might apply to higher octane gas whether need or not, atleast for those of us that don't burn through the stuff promptly.
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Post by kmrcstintn »

treat my stash with Stabil Marine Ethanol & Seafoam in maintenance doses
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Post by AlleyOops »

Hmm... good to know. I was told at the dealer to use 89 (mid-grade) when I filled up.
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Post by Raiderfn311 »

kmrcstintn wrote:treat my stash with Stabil Marine Ethanol & Seafoam in maintenance doses

Stabil Marine user here also. It seems to do the same as the reg Stabil Ethanol treatment, but the marine is more concentrated.
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Post by ericalm »

I've never used Stabil because I alternate my rides and use all my gas before it goes stale. The gas I have in cans is actually bad gas from other scoots or gas I dumped when cleaning a carb, etc. Once I empty something, I never put the same gas back in!

I also had some from my spare gas bottles I bring on long rides. I emptied them into one of my cans and forgot about it. :oops:
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Post by hg3 »

One might want to just put the stale gas in a car - and the good stuff in a Buddy.


Harry :wink:
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Post by Raiderfn311 »

Eric, I use Stabil ethanol treat. for the ethanol factor.
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Post by ericalm »

hg3 wrote:One might want to just put the stale gas in a car - and the good stuff in a Buddy.
Car? :)
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Post by DIZZEE1.6 »

From what all I've read (which is a lot) and what I've learned through talking to others in the industry, it is generally accepted that lower octane gas is the way to go. Personally, I started out using 87 octane, but have recently been using 89. I have my reasons, and they are simple.

I also use Seafoam or a brand- name equivalent EVERY time I put gas in my R50. EVERY single time. This is something that anyone with any knowledge of small 2-stroke engines should know. The carbs on these scooters are so small, and they regulate the most important input to your engine (the air/fuel mixture) that NOT adding fuel system treatments is just plain silly. Either you are ignorant of it's place in your scooter's maintenance, or you know and don't care how long your scooter lasts. Personally, being in school for Auto. Technology, I love ALL vehicles (especially mine) and will do what I think will make that vehicle perform at it's peak and do so for as long as possible!

So, besides the use of a fuel system additive, the next thing is the fuel itself. It was mentioned earlier that higher octane fuels create higher temps. in your engine. This is basically true, and is a good reason not to use 92-93 octane fuel or to add octane-boost to whatever fuel you DO decide to use! It amazes me how many people I've heard using an octane-booster in their 50cc scooters... But, there is something to be said for running fuel that may burn hotter than another, but does not run hot enough to cause damage. That's part of why I use 89 a lot of the time. When used with Seafoam, I think it helps create complete combustion and helps keep your engine clean in the process. I also believe it is different for each person and each scooter, depending on your riding habits and how your particular scooter responds to what fuel you use. My R50 seems to like the 89 octane better than the 87 and seems to run better for it. This is not to say that when summer hits here in the Ohio Valley and both the humidity and temperature are above 90, that I will continue this practice because I probably won't!

The thing is, that if your scooter is running properly, ie. it's NOT running lean and you're oil injection is providing a proper mix, there is no reason under normal riding conditions that 89 octane fuel is going to hurt your engine. If it's hot, humid, you're riding hard, up and down hills, and you're running hot and lean; yes, it's probably best to stick with the 87. If you're not riding under these circumstances, I believe that in some ways the 89 is better because of the hotter combustion and how it can help "clean" your engine and keep nasty deposits, etc. from building up and robbing your engine of power.

Just remember, keep it cool and don't run it lean!
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Post by viney266 »

ericalm wrote:
I have a few gallons I need to get rid of at some point.

Bonfire time :twisted:
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Gas...

Post by Punt_Speedchunk »

This is just my 2 cents... but my scooter runs soooooooo much better with 87 over 93 octane. I had a stupid surge with the higher octane while at idle that I trouble shot forever before I read a post on here where someone had the same issue and the lower octane goodness fixed 'em right up. I also noticed that my buddy ran richer (at sea level) on the higher octane.

All and all... I think the cheaper stuff is a better selection, for me at least.

Let us know what you decide on and what you think!

k~
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Ethanol sucks.

The main carb problem is the needle...but that is the least of it. The main problem is that it eats 2T oil seals.

Buddy = low compression....regular

Kitted and modified 2T with expansion pipe =high compression - premium
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Re: Fuel - reg or premium??

Post by quinbus »

doscoot59 wrote:This might be a dumb question, if so, sorry, but is it best to use just Regular Unleaded or Premium? Should I just continue to use the same as the previous owner used (regular)? Want to give my new (used) Buddy all the right stuff. :D
I don't see anybody discussing this aspect of the Great Octane Debate, but when you pull up to a modern single nozzle pump and buy a small quantity of gasoline (a gallon or less), are you even getting what you pay for? I've done some research about how gasoline pumps work and it seems to me that the amount of gasoline left in the hose from the nozzle back down into the pump mechanism is going to be full of whatever the LAST guy bought. When filling up a typical automobile tank, this little bit of grade contamination isn't even a blip on the radar, but when you're buying a half gallon, it's a huge factor. And while it will be metered and priced to you as whatever grade you selected at the pump, you're really not going to get what you paid for anyways, right?

Given that most motorists buy REGULAR gasoline these days, I'm wondering if that is what a small quantity buyer is likely to get, regardless of what grade he pays for.

It seems to me the argument about which gasoline to buy is really moot, unless you buy larger quantities (say, 5 gallons) and dispense it at home. Fillup at the pump when you're only buying some fraction of gallon really doesn't make any octane difference, so why not PAY for the cheaper stuff?

Q!

Q!
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Post by avescoots1134 »

Buddies and most 4t scooters are low compression engines, regular works fine.
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Re: Fuel - reg or premium??

Post by jd »

quinbus wrote:
doscoot59 wrote:This might be a dumb question, if so, sorry, but is it best to use just Regular Unleaded or Premium? Should I just continue to use the same as the previous owner used (regular)? Want to give my new (used) Buddy all the right stuff. :D
I don't see anybody discussing this aspect of the Great Octane Debate, but when you pull up to a modern single nozzle pump and buy a small quantity of gasoline (a gallon or less), are you even getting what you pay for? I've done some research about how gasoline pumps work and it seems to me that the amount of gasoline left in the hose from the nozzle back down into the pump mechanism is going to be full of whatever the LAST guy bought. When filling up a typical automobile tank, this little bit of grade contamination isn't even a blip on the radar, but when you're buying a half gallon, it's a huge factor. And while it will be metered and priced to you as whatever grade you selected at the pump, you're really not going to get what you paid for anyways, right?

Given that most motorists buy REGULAR gasoline these days, I'm wondering if that is what a small quantity buyer is likely to get, regardless of what grade he pays for.

It seems to me the argument about which gasoline to buy is really moot, unless you buy larger quantities (say, 5 gallons) and dispense it at home. Fillup at the pump when you're only buying some fraction of gallon really doesn't make any octane difference, so why not PAY for the cheaper stuff?

Q!

Q!
I hope this isn't keeping you up at night. You say you've done "some research" but evidently it wasn't sufficient to answer the question of how much remains in the hose, so you jump to conclusions on a "it seems to me" basis.

You should be using regular fuel, anyway. It's BETTER for your Buddy. This is another good reason to do so. At the end of the day, if your engine isn't knocking or pinging, THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Take a deep breath, put on your helmet, and go for a nice ride to clear your head. This subject isn't worth any more research on your part. Really.

jd
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Post by Elder Scoot »

You might recall this post. It concerned Genuine Scooters' octane recommendations. I generally follow manufacturer's recommendations.

topic26705.html
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Post by Syd »

I found this description on another internet forum:
Newer (all "vapor recovery" and "drive a way protected") setups will give you 91/93/87 whatever you order...
Here's how they work:
The station opens at 5 am. First customer of the day, Joe Blow, rolls in, slides in his CC, pulls the handle out, presses buttons, and the pumps load up. He squeezes the trigger, reducing system pressure, and they kick on, pumping fuel.
When he finishes and replaces the hose handle, a sensor reads an increase in pressure, and the pumps back off. Most of the sytems then wait until the transaction code is processed, and then depressurize the unit & hose clear down to the one way valve (next time, look at the hose. See that metal ring thingy about 2 ~ 3 feet from where the hose comes out of the "box"? That's a combination valve/breakaway, so when your GF drives off w/the hose stuck in the nozzle... well, enough said).

So, you roll up & order up some 93... Ok, there will be a few drops of low grade, but that's it - a few drops, nothing more. Pull up to a newer station today & squeeze the handle - that's exactly how much "previous grade" you'd get. Remember, the operator wants top $$ - any evaporation = lost $$$.
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Post by ucandoit »

Wow. Now I'm confused. I've been using non-oxy gas (91%) because I thought ethanol gums up the carb. jets. I use this for my lawnmower and gas ice auger (ice fishing) too. Every third tank or so I'll add an ounce of seafoam. All this talk about burning hotter has me concerned. Heck, I guess I use them all and cover my bases.
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Post by KrispyKreme »

ucandoit wrote:Wow. Now I'm confused. I've been using non-oxy gas (91%) because I thought ethanol gums up the carb. jets. I use this for my lawnmower and gas ice auger (ice fishing) too. Every third tank or so I'll add an ounce of seafoam. All this talk about burning hotter has me concerned. Heck, I guess I use them all and cover my bases.
Ethanol will not "gum up" carbs. What it will do is accumulate water if the engine is left standing. Ethanol is a strong solvent. It also draws water into it.

If you use the engine regularly, don't worry. If you let it sit for awhile, use a good treatment(Seafoam, Stabil, etc).

While storing things like your auger, when storing fill the tank full. That leaves less air(H2O) able to mess with the fuel. And always use a stabilizer.
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Post by Syd »

What Krispy said.
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Post by sc00ter »

The EPA dictates a minimum of 4 gallons before the chosen E fuel is completely thru the hose and into the tank/can. This refers to small, outdoor power equipment getting the correct E rated fuel on pumps that also carry E15 and higher fuel (E10 is "just" safe for 2t motors), so the same 4 gallon theory should apply to octane. Also find it interesting that most additives for gas contain ethanol-the very thing that is causing problems in carb based motors to begin with. Do some research into SeaFoam and such. I have never had a 2t motor lean seize until this E10 fuel came about. Concerning octane, I just run the cheap gas from a vendor I have heard of and gets regular traffic, that way the fuel is not sitting in the tanks collecting moisture and going stale.
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Post by KrispyKreme »

Syd wrote:What Krispy said.

Respect back at you, Syd. Hell, you probably told me the same thing on one of these threads.

I smile and cringe at the same time when these threads come up.

I smile because a person wanting to ride wants an answer. Not a bad thing.

I frown because this issue gets twisted into a bigger issue than it needs to be.

Ride. Fuel. Ride. Fuel. Repeat.
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Post by New2Scoots »

My 170i requires 91-93 but the pumps in my area are 87, 90 & 93. I decided I'd alternate between 90 & 93 & average out to 91-92 considering there's maybe .4 gallons still in when I refill. But like some others I'm wondering how much 87 I'm getting from the last guy who filled up. My internet research lead to "none, who knows, maybe a half gallon" etc., so if it doesn't ping, good. If it does I'll just go to 93 only & be done with it. In my 650 all octanes run the same with no pinging so I use 87.
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Post by ModernMike »

New2Scoots wrote:My 170i requires 91-93 but the pumps in my area are 87, 90 & 93. I decided I'd alternate between 90 & 93 & average out to 91-92 considering there's maybe .4 gallons still in when I refill. But like some others I'm wondering how much 87 I'm getting from the last guy who filled up. My internet research lead to "none, who knows, maybe a half gallon" etc., so if it doesn't ping, good. If it does I'll just go to 93 only & be done with it. In my 650 all octanes run the same with no pinging so I use 87.
I try to use premium 93 NO ethanol in gas cans when ever I can. I pump the first few gallons in my car to clear the hose and then fill 6 gallons in cans. I use this has between my BMW and My 170i. Usually last me about 10-14 days.
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Post by GregsBuddy »

Who could possibly know more about their engine than the manufacturer?
91 is what I use here because it's the highest available.
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Post by jd »

No, no, no, again, no.

Not all octane ratings are created equal. I have lost count of how many times I have had to explain this to moped and scooter riders trying to feed the right fuel to their engines.

The Buddy is engineered and built in Taiwan. Gasoline octane in Taiwan is scaled using Research Octane Number (RON). In the U.S., we use (R+M)/2 octane measurements (which is the average of RON and MON [Motor Octane Number]).

91 Octane RON is the same as 87 Octane (R+M)/2, ergo "91 octane" fuel in Taiwan is the same stuff as "87 octane" fuel in the United States.

If your made-in-Taiwan owner's manual says to use 91-93 octane, it means that you should be using 87 octane fuel in the United States, unless you're at high altitude, in which case you can use 85 octane.

Guys and gals, stop obsessing about your gasoline. All Buddy scooters in the U.S. do best on plain ol' regular, 87 octane fuel. Using a higher octane fuel not only doesn't do you engine any good, it may actually damage it in the long run.
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Post by ModernMike »

jd wrote:If your made-in-Taiwan owner's manual says to use 91-93 octane, it means that you should be using 87 octane fuel in the United States, unless you're at high altitude, in which case you can use 85 octane.
Really? While I understand that the Genuine Buddy is made in Taiwan, the manual is written in English, and the scooter is sold in the U.S. I suspect a quality business would appropriately translate the requirements of operation from one language to another, and one country to another. Not doing so would seem to open the door for litigation.

I wonder if any cars manufactured in Taiwan are sold in the U.S. If so, what fuel requirements do they list?

Having said all this, I searched throughout my manual and the Internet and could only find a requirement for unleaded gasoline. I will still use ethanol free if it's available.

:D
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Post by BuddyRaton »

In reality...put in whatever floats your boat. Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much concern about what octane is going into a small little bulletproof scooter motor.

If I'm filling up one of my high compression kitted 2Ts with premium...I put premium in the Buddy. If I'm filling up a low compression motor with regular...I put regular in the Buddy.

Never noticed any difference.
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Post by Elder Scoot »

This is what Genuine wrote to an OP is another thread:

"Hi Ryan,

We spoke with our experts and they passed along the following breakdown:

Here are the recommended minimum octane’s for our legacy and current models. These octane figures are based on the engine compression ratio and having electronic ignition with a built in advance.

Buddy 50, Roughhouse 50, Black Cat 50, and Rattler 50: regular 87 octane

Rattler 110: regular 87 octane

Buddy 125: mid 89 octane

Buddy 150 and Blur 150: mid 89 octane

Buddy 170 and Hooligan 170: high 91 or 93 octane

Blur 220: high 91 or 93 octane

Stella 150 2T: mid 89 octane

Stella 150 4T: mid 89 octane

Stella automatic: mid 89 octane

For the Buddy 125 model: although the recommended octane is 89, we have had many reports from dealers and consumers that have been running regular 87 with no issues and several thousands of miles.

Best,
Genuine Scooters"

This information is coming out of Chicago not Taiwan.

IMHO a manufacturer is most motivated to provide technical information that prevents mechanical issues with its products.
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Post by jd »

Elder Scoot wrote:IMHO a manufacturer is most motivated to provide technical information that prevents mechanical issues with its products.
I could not agree with you more. But Genuine is a distributor, not a manufacturer.

Unfortunately, I've run into this same question with a distributor of another Taiwanese product (TGB) and it turns out that the translator of the manual knew nothing about octane ratings and didn't make the conversion. These bikes are designed to run reliably in all sorts of settings with whatever gas you can find. If you consult PGO owners manuals from the around the world (which is easy to do using the Web), they all say to use "Unleaded" fuel and that's about it. No octane ratings are recommended, regardless of the engine.

So if distributor Genuine wants to recommend higher octane fuel than PGO, that's up to them. But I seriously doubt the recommendations are based on the designing engineers' input.

I see some psychological value, however. Owners obsessing about how to take care of their scooters in the best way possible have something to fuss about. "Well, I can't use just ANY ol' gas in MY scooter. I need PREMIUM!" LOL!

OK, I'm finished with this topic. Everyone go out and buy any gas that suits your fancy. and GO RIDE instead of sitting in front of your PCs (and that includes ME!) :-)
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Post by PeteH »

ModernMike wrote:Really? While I understand that the Genuine Buddy is made in Taiwan, the manual is written in English, and ...
Have you ever actually _read_ the Buddy manual? :rofl:

"Swing the lever outwardly. Kick the lever down slowly till the gear stop, then kick the lever down strongly to star the engine."
"Please fill the unleaded gas if your scooter is equipped with catalyster."
"It may cause inflammable if gas is split onto the engine or muffler."
"To avoid the water getting into the main cylinder, otherwise the boiling temperature of the brake oil will be declining make the air be obstructed."
Feel da rhythm! Feel da rhyme! Get on up! It's Buddy Time!
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KrispyKreme
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Post by KrispyKreme »

^^^^^^Took the words right out of my keyboard. This illustration says it all. The dog cracks me up. Sorry for the pic quality.
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GregsBuddy
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Post by GregsBuddy »

Jd is making sense.
Read here, a few pages in where countries are discussed with their rating systems and availability.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
It's possible that Buddy/PGO didn't edit the manual and left the RON ratings in place instead of calculating (R+M)/2 as we rate fuel in the USA.
What's needed is clarity as our Buddy representative may not be aware of the issue as well.
I'm going to test my 170i on 87 and listen for "octane knock".
For sure, using higher octane is a (very small) waste of money, and will produce slightly less power (yes, this is a FACT).
New2Scoots
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Post by New2Scoots »

I thought I'd give it a try. It works. I've used 93 since I got my Buddy a few weeks ago. This afternoon I had 1/2 tank left & topped it off with 87 so it averaged about 90. No pinging. Even wide open throttle from a standstill, none. I left my earplugs out to make sure I'd hear it. Next tank I'll try 87 after I'm on empty. If it pings, no problem I'll syphon it & use it in the lawnmower. If it doesn't ping I'll keep using it. Also, it's just a tad smoother now. Used to have a bit of roughness (by sound & feel) & I thought it might just need a few more break in miles. Well that's gone now. I'm guessing the 93 was giving it a few misfires.
2014 Genuine Buddy 170i
2014 Honda NC700X

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tiii
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Post by tiii »

GregsBuddy wrote:Jd is making sense.
Read here, a few pages in where countries are discussed with their rating systems and availability.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
It's possible that Buddy/PGO didn't edit the manual and left the RON ratings in place instead of calculating (R+M)/2 as we rate fuel in the USA.
What's needed is clarity as our Buddy representative may not be aware of the issue as well.
I'm going to test my 170i on 87 and listen for "octane knock".
For sure, using higher octane is a (very small) waste of money, and will produce slightly less power (yes, this is a FACT).
I'll confirm this. My buddy 150 runs poorly on 87 and 91. 87 being the worse of the two. 89 and it's a 70bmph scooter.
YPMV as CA fuel is big on it's methanol and oxygenated content.
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KrispyKreme
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Post by KrispyKreme »

ModernMike wrote:
New2Scoots wrote:My 170i requires 91-93 but the pumps in my area are 87, 90 & 93. I decided I'd alternate between 90 & 93 & average out to 91-92 considering there's maybe .4 gallons still in when I refill. But like some others I'm wondering how much 87 I'm getting from the last guy who filled up. My internet research lead to "none, who knows, maybe a half gallon" etc., so if it doesn't ping, good. If it does I'll just go to 93 only & be done with it. In my 650 all octanes run the same with no pinging so I use 87.
I try to use premium 93 NO ethanol in gas cans when ever I can. I pump the first few gallons in my car to clear the hose and then fill 6 gallons in cans. I use this has between my BMW and My 170i. Usually last me about 10-14 days.
There is a lot of wasted time in there.

And as far as the last drippin's off the hose.....they have a very good check valve....for people like you!.
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w6euh
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Post by w6euh »

Elder Scoot wrote:... it turns out that the translator of the manual knew nothing about octane ratings and didn't make the conversion.
Don't want to go off-topic, just a little bit of a clarification for everyone to have in mind. Whatever type of gas you decide to put in your scooter, if anything happens, please, don't blame the translator.
The Buddy's manual is written in a very weird English, I acknowledge that. Not the best translation, I know. Even I, not being a native English speaker, noticed that.
BUT if the original text didn't specify the measurement method for the octane rating (RON, MON, AKI), the translator simply can't guess it and certainly won't, ethically, add or modify any part of the content. Only if the client requires localization or measurement conversions, and if enough context is provided, the translator includes them.

So, let's push Genuine Scooters to add some clarification to their website's FAQs... and to get better translated manuals.

Ride safe and enjoy life!
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