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Open CVT/ Clutch case?

 
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PIStaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject: Open CVT/ Clutch case? Reply with quote

Anyone else rocking the open CVT/ Clutch?
I can see the advantages: cooler look, cooler clutch. But, any inherent dangers aside from the loose pant leg?
Just wondering aloud here.
Thx
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only ever seen one person ride with an open CVT and their belt broke on the ride. Coincidence?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ride with a guy who put a 150cc engine in a 50cc scooter, Not a Buddy, but he has run his for the last two summers without the cover and has had no problems yet. Hate to see what might happen if the belt ever brakes and flies off.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't do it. The cover provides protection for the parts inside. I can also imagine that it may draw unwanted attention to your scooter while parked outside ie people screwing with the scooter. Also, unless you have some sort of awesome looking variator and clutch bell, its just not that attractive in there Laughing
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PIStaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jasondavis48108 wrote:
I wouldn't do it. The cover provides protection for the parts inside. I can also imagine that it may draw unwanted attention to your scooter while parked outside ie people screwing with the scooter. Also, unless you have some sort of awesome looking variator and clutch bell, its just not that attractive in there Laughing


Awesome may be a strong word, but I was going to upgrade to the NCY Super Transmission set. So it;s definitely an improvement.
If I am being honest I should have just asked, what were the advantages of running open cover versus enclosed. ...apart from keeping the temp down.
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jasondavis48108
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

monamibuddy wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:
I wouldn't do it. The cover provides protection for the parts inside. I can also imagine that it may draw unwanted attention to your scooter while parked outside ie people screwing with the scooter. Also, unless you have some sort of awesome looking variator and clutch bell, its just not that attractive in there Laughing


Awesome may be a strong word, but I was going to upgrade to the NCY Super Transmission set. So it;s definitely an improvement.
If I am being honest I should have just asked, what were the advantages of running open cover versus enclosed. ...apart from keeping the temp down.


well as far as an advantage for keeping the cover on I'd say the biggest one would be keeping water out of the CVT. I'd imagine the belt would slip like hell once all the oil soaked road water got up in there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't do it.

1. Those parts don't work very well wet.
2. A rock can do some pretty horrible things in there.
3. People with something against scooters can pretty easily decide to throw a rock, or something else horrible (motor oil) in there while you have the bike parked.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again
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jasondavis48108
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

monamibuddy wrote:
See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again


I've never thought of that before. It'd be a really go space for a mural, excellent idea Smile

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

jasondavis48108 wrote:
monamibuddy wrote:
See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again


I've never thought of that before. It'd be a really go space for a mural, excellent idea Smile


I was thinking something like this:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, that would be pretty elaborate. Just make sure if you get the mural, you take it somewhere and have it clear coated. The CVT case is pretty low to the ground and you wouldn't want rocks or other road debris to nick it all to hell.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wondered what effect the sun would have on a belt. Sun rot or even if it would stretch. I gets pretty hot in there anyway, so probably won't stretch more. Use paint accordingly for the heat.

You could just cut holes in there. The case I mean. I have not done it and scootertrash told me it increases noise. But looks cool.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Mural Reply with quote

I'm gonna stick with the case on.
The mural was kind of quirky idea, but it is hysterical.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've run mine open on a long 4 hour ride and nothing has happened to it. Also, my roomate macy is running her open all the time because the kickstarter gear makes a really nasty noise when the cover is on, I guess she can get rid of the kickstarter in all but she is running it open and has been since may. Nothing has happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gearhead wrote:
I've run mine open on a long 4 hour ride and nothing has happened to it. Also, my roomate macy is running her open all the time because the kickstarter gear makes a really nasty noise when the cover is on, I guess she can get rid of the kickstarter in all but she is running it open and has been since may. Nothing has happened.


Have you run them in the rain with them open?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't ride in the rain, we have cars for that lol Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gearhead wrote:
We don't ride in the rain, we have cars for that lol Razz


cars! those are those dirty four wheels contraptions right with doors and windows right? I think I might have one of those around here somewhere myself Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

monamibuddy wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:
monamibuddy wrote:
See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again


I've never thought of that before. It'd be a really go space for a mural, excellent idea Smile


I was thinking something like this:


Just how big is YOUR transfer case????

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible to run a scooter without the cover, but it's not a good idea in my opinion. Dirt, water, wear and tear will occur much much faster than with the cover on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't run without the cvt cover. Its actually a structural member. It adds strength to the engine cases which are also part of your rear suspension system (like almost all scooters). A couple of the guys on totalruckus have had their engines snap in half because they were running without the cover.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gearhead wrote:
I've run mine open on a long 4 hour ride and nothing has happened to it. Also, my roomate macy is running her open all the time because the kickstarter gear makes a really nasty noise when the cover is on, I guess she can get rid of the kickstarter in all but she is running it open and has been since may. Nothing has happened.


I'm resurrecting this zombie thread because I'm thinking of running my Buddy without the CVT case cover. I use the scooter exclusively for 'weekend rides', meaning that I don't commute on it, and I've hit the center stand through a couple of lefthand turns. On both occasions it has been very disconcerting.

Interestingly, and as a side note, it was the slower and tighter of these turns that resulted in the most dramatic and dangerous of the these situations. Hitting the center stand at speed resulted in a lifting/bouncing of the rear wheel that required a significant enough correction to make it almost non-recoverable, in terms of heading wide of one's line post-correction. For this reason I have decided that I need to remove or shorten the kick bar on the side of the center stand, since this is the part that I have significantly dragged on both occasions (specifically the point where the kick arm curves up around the CVT cover).

Although I mention only two notable occasions, apparently I have dragged the kick arm on several other occasions, per the report of someone riding behind me, who thought that I was dragging/sparking the engine case/CVT case [It was the center stand kick arm.]

Given that I have dragged the center stand kick arm with major consequences, I have considered simply cutting off the kick arm it order to give myself an inch or more of additional clearance. However, I was not able to put the scooter on the center stand using only my foot on other parts of the center stand that did not include the kick arm. My conclusion is that one needs to keep the kick arm in order to easily use the center stand and that therefore the best solution is to modify the center stand by shortening the kick arm so that it curves up closer to centerline. This, in turn, means running the scooter without the CVT cover.

The major objection to running the scoot without the CVT cover seems to be getting the CVT parts wet. However, no one posted firsthand experience of this being an issue, so I'm not sure how serious of an issue this really is. (Not that I plan on ever riding in the rain - but it could happen without being explicitly planned or anticipated.) The other major objection seems to be that the CVT is a structural member of the rear suspension. Again, I'm not sure how much of an issue this is on a Buddy. Perhaps the CVT cover contributes more to the structural integrity of the CVT on a Honda Ruckus, but contrary to secondhand reports mentioned in this thread one of the members of our local scooter group runs his heavily modded, big bore Yamaha Zuma without the CVT cover all the time, and he has never had an issue (either with debris, water or of a structural nature).

I'm open to suggestions on how to avoid running the scooter without the CVT cover - or firsthand experience with doing it, and also to ideas about other ways to increase the lean angle/clearance by modifying the center stand. (It would be pretty cool to have a center stand with a removable kick arm that one could just click in place when one wanted to deploy the stand and then unclick when one was ready to lower the scoot off of the stand - It wouldn't even have to "click", if the arm just sheathed over a stub off the side of the center stand for deployment. The deployment of the center stand is so specific and discreet of a process that the kick arm doesn't have to stay on the centerstand excpet for during that specific action. Anyone want to fab one of these for me?? Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it's not clear how much "Buddy" this bike truly is, it does seem to indicate that it is not entirely unreasonable to run a Buddy without the CVT cover:
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave wrote:
I wouldn't run without the cvt cover. Its actually a structural member. It adds strength to the engine cases which are also part of your rear suspension system (like almost all scooters). A couple of the guys on totalruckus have had their engines snap in half because they were running without the cover.


This is why I would never run mine without the cover. I've had my engine removed from the frame and taken apart so I know first hand how much structural support would be lost without the cover in place. I got around the scrapping center stand issue with my Blur by removing the center stand. For my Buddy, I'm thinking about modifying the bump stop to allow the stand to fold up higher.
Dave's post is referring to the problem that Ruckus guys are having when they swap their stock engine for a GY6 engine because of the better hop-up possibilities.
Scooters that are used purely on a race course can get away without the cover because a race course is smooth and without big bumps, potholes, and other road hazards so there is much less stress to the crankcase.
I would marry that girl racer...if I wasn't so old and ugly, lol!

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Christophers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

babblefish wrote:
Dave wrote:
I wouldn't run without the cvt cover. Its actually a structural member. It adds strength to the engine cases which are also part of your rear suspension system (like almost all scooters). A couple of the guys on totalruckus have had their engines snap in half because they were running without the cover.


I've had my engine removed from the frame and taken apart so I know first hand how much structural support would be lost without the cover in place.


Yes. I know. I distracted my audience with the last pic and made everyone think only about racing Smile and I get the argument, BUT note that I mentioned the Zuma owner that I ride with who has run his Zuma without the CVT cover for.... at least the 5 years that I've know him. And we're not riding on a smooth race course. You live in California! You know how 'wanting' some of our roads are. LOL

Anyone with firsthand experience running a Buddy without the CVT cover?

(And a second call for anyone that would be able to fab a center stand with a removable kick arm. Such a design would eliminate the entire need to run without the CVT cover.)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about one of these? Show off the fancy bits, but keep case stiffness:

https://www.drowsports.com/killer-scooter-gy6-cvt-cover/

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need a cvt cover so the engine case doesn't crack when you hit a pothole. There are braces you can use for a long case GY6 that expose the belt, but I haven't seen any for a short case GY6 like in the Buddy.

I doubt dragging your CVT cover will be a problem. Center stand, yeah, but not your CVT cover. Unless you're a Scooter Rossi.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

az_slynch wrote:
How about one of these? Show off the fancy bits, but keep case stiffness:

https://www.drowsports.com/killer-scooter-gy6-cvt-cover/


Great find! And great idea!

Unfortunately, as dasscooter points out, these are for the long case GY6. Sad
And it's out of stock anyway - but it does offer up possible solutions/approaches, at least to the structural rigidity concerns (of which I am still not entirely convinced*)

*Engine cases can crack, but I think this is more often due to materials defects during manufacturing. c.f. http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic12914.html

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this one?

http://www.monstergy6.com/product221.html

Designed for a short case and has both a packing plate and a fascia plate with powdercoat options.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could try removing the small plate that the rubber pad on the center stand touches when it is up, on the bottom front of the CVT held on with two bolts. Or you can shave down the rubber bumper to get a little more clearance.


A few questions-
Have you tried stiffening up your rear shock?
Is that shock the same length as the stock Buddy shock?
Have you tried leaning your body over more when you turn?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

az_slynch wrote:
How about this one?

http://www.monstergy6.com/product221.html

Designed for a short case and has both a packing plate and a fascia plate with powdercoat options.


That's pretty nice!
I can't find any specifications to indicate that it is for a short case GY6.
If anything the distance between the variator and the clutch look more in line with a long case.

Thoughts on the utility of this as a structural member of the case?
I could see how the steel "Killer Scooter GY6 CVT Cover" linked to earlier might contribute to the structural rigidity of the CVT case, but a vented aluminum cover seems much less likely to contribute to the strength of the "swing arm".

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Christophers
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scootERIK wrote:
You could try removing the small plate that the rubber pad on the center stand touches when it is up, on the bottom front of the CVT held on with two bolts. Or you can shave down the rubber bumper to get a little more clearance.


A few questions-
Have you tried stiffening up your rear shock?
Is that shock the same length as the stock Buddy shock?
Have you tried leaning your body over more when you turn?


remove the plate that the rubber pad touches - DONE
stiffen rear shock - DONE
shock same length as stock - YES (it is stock)
Have you tried leaning your body - I'm so far over the side of the scooter...

The center stand does not drag on the feet as originally addressed by dalvarado (http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic14380.html) and where the same solution that you suggested is mentioned later on by ScooterTrash. And you are probably onto something when you suggest leaning. This is probably the reason that slower, tighter turns are more of an issue than deeper sweeping turns.

Take a look at the impact location on the center stand in the pic that I posted. This is entirely due to the kick arm protruding horizontally. The center stand itself is already modified to give the most vertical clearance available.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christophers wrote:

That's pretty nice!
I can't find any specifications to indicate that it is for a short case GY6.
If anything the distance between the variator and the clutch look more in line with a long case.

Thoughts on the utility of this as a structural member of the case?
I could see how the steel "Killer Scooter GY6 CVT Cover" linked to earlier might contribute to the structural rigidity of the CVT case, but a vented aluminum cover seems much less likely to contribute to the strength of the "swing arm".


Supposedly, the short GY6 has eight bolts holding the CVT cover on, while the long case has ten bolts holding it on.

There are two aluminum plates in this set. There's a covered, stiffening plate and a vented fascia plate. Maybe ask the vendor for picture of the unassembled kit?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

az_slynch wrote:
Supposedly, the short GY6 has eight bolts holding the CVT cover on, while the long case has ten bolts holding it on.

There are two aluminum plates in this set. There's a covered, stiffening plate and a vented fascia plate. Maybe ask the vendor for picture of the unassembled kit?


Oh cool! I've already emailed asking if it would fit a short case GY6 and indicating that I would want one powder coated in matte black if it does!

Have you seen one of these in person?? :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

another view of CVT cover and impact location on center stand kick arm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you scrape the muffler guard too?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syd wrote:
Do you scrape the muffler guard too?


No. I have the NCY Performance exhaust on my scooter (https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Performance-Exhaust-Black-Buddy-125-150-170i-P286.aspx?k=0500+1014&catId=1).

I've scraped the stock exhaust on a Buddy 125/Buddy 150, and the Prima exhuast is even worse for scraping (the header pipe dips lower on the Prima pipe than on either the stock 125 or 150 pipe.) In comparison the NCY Performance exhaust offers significantly better clearance than any of these other options.

In the case of the 150 pipe, I believe it was the muffler guard that I scraped. With the Prima pipe I was always hitting the header pipe. I don't remember where I scraped the stock Buddy 125 exhaust - although it was likely the muffler guard as well.

I do have some scratches on the muffler guard of the current NCY Performance pipe. I'll have to take a closer look at them t determine if they are from dragging the muffler guard, but if I've been scraping the pipe it hasn't been significant enough to stand out the way that it did with the stock 125/150 pipes and the way that it definitely stood out with the Prima pipe. The Prima pipe was dangerous for precisely that reason!

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Christophers
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Joined: 14 Oct 2010
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Psycho

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

az_slynch wrote:
How about this one?

http://www.monstergy6.com/product221.html

Designed for a short case and has both a packing plate and a fascia plate with powdercoat options.


The seller wrote back and informed me that this is designed and only available for a long case GY6. Sad

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babblefish
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Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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Location: San Francisco
2006 Blur 180, 2008 Buddy St. Tropez

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being shorter, I suspect the short case GY6 is probably strong enough to survive without the cover, hence the lack of reinforcement plates available for it.
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BuddyRaton
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
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2 - many

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you can do it...as long as you are willing to take the risks mentioned above.

If you want to turn it into a race bike go for it! Just remember that you don't race them unless you are willing to blow up the motor or wreck it.

Personally I would just ditch the center stand. Had to do that with a 79 P200 with a PSP2000 exhaust. The center stand didn't fit so it got ditched...on the other hand that bike would run over 80mph and yes....I kept the clutch covered.

So if you are willing to crack the case, expose everything to elements and risk a bit of shrapnel if things asplode go for it!

And yeah...I've been known to blow up a motor or two!

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Christophers
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Joined: 14 Oct 2010
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuddyRaton wrote:
Just remember that you don't race them unless you are willing to blow up the motor or wreck it.

Personally I would just ditch the center stand.

And yeah...I've been known to blow up a motor or two!


I've never raced any bike that I've owned. Not even informally.
But I do like to ride safely, and the center stand issue is serious safety issue.

Unfortunately I can't get rid of it. I'm not going to lean the bike against a wall or sign post when I park it, like a bicycle (LOL), and relying on the kick stand is equivalent to just dropping it on the ground. But I've never been able to get the scooter up on the center stand without using the kick arm. It seems to be necessary to roll up over the curved flanges on the center stand feet.

When did I join this forum?
Looks like back in 2010.
Well, even back then, on my first Buddy 125, I encountered the center stand design flaw - having the back wheel bounce up and almost cause a wreck in the middle of a turn because of hitting the center stand kick arm on the ground. Hopefully I have a solution forthcoming.

The responses on this thread have been useful and informative - whether or not those responding are posting based on experience or intuition. I'm grateful for everyone's input, and that we have such a friendly and knowledgable community.

You guys have brought me around to keeping a cover on the CVT - even if it is more or a minimalistic cover like the ones linked to by az-slynch.
I think the solution for the center stand clearance issue is a removable kick arm.

I'll keep everyone posted!
And keep the ideas coming!

p.s. Sorry about the blown up motors. Hopefully you were having fun when it happened. ;)

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Syd
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Joined: 18 Jul 2007
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Location: Tempe
BV350

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

PIStaker wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:
monamibuddy wrote:
See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again


I've never thought of that before. It'd be a really go space for a mural, excellent idea Smile


I was thinking something like this:
Why don't you put an image of the variator/clutch/belt on the case.
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PhillyKick
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Joined: 24 Aug 2016
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Location: Philadelphia
'17 Buddy Kick

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks for the input Reply with quote

Syd wrote:
PIStaker wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:
monamibuddy wrote:
See... this is why I ask these questions. Overwhelmingly, the answer is not to do it.
I appreciate the feedback.
Perhaps I'll commission a mini mural for the case instead. Will look just as pretty.
Thanks again


I've never thought of that before. It'd be a really go space for a mural, excellent idea Smile


I was thinking something like this:
Why don't you put an image of the variator/clutch/belt on the case.

The scooter equivalent of BMW's and Mustang piping fake engine noise through the stereo, hahaha

Has anyone though about making a plexiglass/lexan one? For the short cases (which according to this thread won't flex as much, and, which, you know, Buddy's actually have), or even with a brace of some kind in there? (aluminum or steel brace, lexan cover)

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