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Hard braking suggestions?

 
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aremyers
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

Today, I experienced what was essentially a repeat of a wreck I had back in October - it was wet out, I was in town riding at relatively low speed (approx. 20 mph), and a car turned in front of me. Both times, I braked to try to avoid hitting/being hit by the car in front of me, and both times, my scooter skid and I hit the ground. Stupidly, I was only out on a five minute ride and not wearing protective knee gear AGAIN, so I have a new gash on my recently-healed knees. Lesson learned there, for sure.

I'm wondering, though, what I can do to avoid this hard brake & skid pattern I seem to fall into when the adrenaline hits. Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement? I'm also wondering if the problem might be, in part, that I'm both trying to swerve out of the path of the car AND brake... When a car pulls out in front of you, should swerving or braking be the first line of defense?
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sc00ter
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I would do if not done is get the dead lights running and install the BRIGHTEST white lights I could. I would also look into a safety class. I know everyone says that, and if you took the beginner then take the advanced. I go from braking overkill (Spyder) to braking with a wet sponge (front/rear drums on my Zuma) and a good middle ground (Burgman with ABS). I have a passenger, my wife, on the back most of the time so I pay extra attention to my surroundings with her on the back. I tend to get lazy and do dumb stuff if its just me riding. I have terrible riding habits and I have police motorcycle level certification. I also cant lecture you on gear, but I may pick up a pair of riding jeans from Cycle Gear when they go on sale.
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exmayor
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you are using too much front brake in the wet conditions. When it is wet traction is already limited and when you ask th front tire to both swerve and brake you overcome the available traction. If you have an area with a gravel road or driveway practice finding the balance between steering and braking at low speed to train your muscle memory. The small tires on the Buddy makes the issue worse.
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

aremyers wrote:
Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement?

ABS. I'm not being flippant. ABS is the precise solution to letting your panic response override your knowledge/experience about controlled braking. That is why my regular ride is an ABS equipped bike.
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EricV
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only you know the conditions you experienced during your crashes. Using both brakes under most conditions is better than only using one. Weight transfer shifts weight to the front under braking no matter what brake you use, making the rear less effective as weight shifts. Remember that less effective does not mean no effect. Every bit helps until the rear tire is off the ground, which doesn't happen often on a scooter.

Turning reduces the amount of friction left for braking. The second half of this video may be helpful in understanding this better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuNDLTWqtY

Do consider taking a Team Oregon (Oregon's version of MSF), course. It will point out bad habits and reinforce good ones and give you a venue to really learn what happens as you operate your scooter. Some areas may have scooter specific courses, but the basic motorcycle course will let you use their small 250cc motorcycles and is very applicable to riding scooters safely in urban environments.
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Clydeo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Braking Reply with quote

I have gone down a couple of times, once in wet conditions and once when a car ran me off the road, both times going down as a result of over braking.I am experienced motorcyclist, so I have never had a problem with the front brake, but because I am used to operating the clutch with my left hand, I have trouble not locking the rear brake on the Scooter. Because of the rear weight bias on a scooter ( something else I am getting used to) once the back brake locks up, the rear end tends to swing around and I get tossed off the bike in a high side. Next Spring I plan on adjusting the rear brake so that it won’t lock quite so easily!
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charlie55
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Braking Reply with quote

Clydeo wrote:
I have gone down a couple of times, once in wet conditions and once when a car ran me off the road, both times going down as a result of over braking.I am experienced motorcyclist, so I have never had a problem with the front brake, but because I am used to operating the clutch with my left hand, I have trouble not locking the rear brake on the Scooter. Because of the rear weight bias on a scooter ( something else I am getting used to) once the back brake locks up, the rear end tends to swing around and I get tossed off the bike in a high side. Next Spring I plan on adjusting the rear brake so that it won’t lock quite so easily!


If I recall correctly, when I took the MSF we were told that it's relatively safe to release the front brake if you lock it up, but you should never release a locked rear brake (until you're stopped, of course) because that's what causes a high-side. Your take seems to be that a rear lockup is bad news, period, on a scoot because of the weight distribution. I never thought of that.

I've locked the rear up a couple of times on the Helix and kept it locked (more due to panic than training) without experiencing much instability. Makes me think that overall weight/wheelbase may also play into the equation.

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Clydeo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Braking Reply with quote

Both of my incidents involved surfaces with very low traction: the first was on a wet mossy section of road that was covered by leaves, and the second was on very loose and deep gravel. Under normal conditions I think that your approach is quite correct. On my motorcycles I use very little pressure on the rear brake! It can be a real challenge going back and forth between a motorcycle and a scooter, as the dynamics are quite differen. But I really enjoy riding both.
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charlie55
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Braking Reply with quote

Clydeo wrote:
Both of my incidents involved surfaces with very low traction: the first was on a wet mossy section of road that was covered by leaves, and the second was on very loose and deep gravel. Under normal conditions I think that your approach is quite correct. On my motorcycles I use very little pressure on the rear brake! It can be a real challenge going back and forth between a motorcycle and a scooter, as the dynamics are quite differen. But I really enjoy riding both.


Ah, both of my incidents were on hot days and dry paved surfaces. And both of them were caused by me not paying attention to my surroundings. Yup, there are a lot of variables to consider.

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GregsBuddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't note whether you locked the front or rear brake.
Avoiding the problem with an LED headlight (Scooterwest has an H4 LED conversion kit that works very well!) and very bright clothing and helmet is a great starting point.
Next, I suggest you practice your braking on a wet parking lot. Note how a rear tire lock up is pretty easy to control. Don't lock up the front brake on purpose but note how much you can use before lock up. There's nothing that can replace experience, especially in a controlled environment.

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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ABATE motorcycle training. SEE: Search, evaluate execute. Nothing to do with equipment.
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eliu01
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregsBuddy wrote:
(Scooterwest has an H4 LED conversion kit that works very well!)


Can you provide a link to this conversion kit? I can't find it on Scooterwest. Thanks!

Eric Liu
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EricV
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

Dooglas wrote:
aremyers wrote:
Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement?

ABS. I'm not being flippant. ABS is the precise solution to letting your panic response override your knowledge/experience about controlled braking. That is why my regular ride is an ABS equipped bike.


While it's unrealistic for someone to replace their scooter in many cases, there is a inexpensive mimic of ABS that may actually help in situations that the OP described. I've seen these advertised but don't have any personal experience with them. LINK

As GregsBuddy suggested, practice is important. Learning to threshold brake under different conditions in a safe and controlled environment will allow you to maximize your braking and understand and control it better. Threshold braking is typically taught in a track environment or some other off street situation. Scooter practice would not need such a big venue to practice. Smile

Threshold braking is simply applying the brakes right up to the point where they are starting to lock up and then maintaining that pressure just at the edge of lock up by modulating the levers slightly. It allows the maximum braking use of the vehicle. This requires a lot of practice to master. This is what true ABS is mimicking by pulsing the brakes and wheel speed sensors, etc.
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HanShan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

aremyers wrote:

I'm wondering, though, what I can do to avoid this hard brake & skid pattern I seem to fall into when the adrenaline hits. Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement? I'm also wondering if the problem might be, in part, that I'm both trying to swerve out of the path of the car AND brake... When a car pulls out in front of you, should swerving or braking be the first line of defense?


Never swerve and brake. Either swerve or brake depending on the situation. It might just be that nothing world have helped as well, but braking while swerving almost always leads to lack of control.

http://www.motorcycleassistant.com/swerve-or-brake-motorcycle.html
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sc00ter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practice makes perfect! I had a CBR900RR bitd (before nanny technologies existed) and feared tank slappers. A friend and I found a nice right turn sweeper with a dip at the end that caused tank slappers. We "played" on that sweeper so often that we wound up hitting it a triple digit speeds and controlled the tank slap and made it go away by speeding up. If we didnt practice it and learn, those slappers would have become splatters on many occasions on numerous fast, rough turns. I also mastered nose wheelies but have went off the front on many occasions while learning. You want to ride a scooter that will test you in the wet? Honda Helix with Dunlops. Still love Helix's, just not with Dunlops. Ouch!
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

EricV wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
aremyers wrote:
Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement?

ABS. I'm not being flippant. ABS is the precise solution to letting your panic response override your knowledge/experience about controlled braking. That is why my regular ride is an ABS equipped bike.

While it's unrealistic for someone to replace their scooter in many cases.........

Of course, what you ride is a very personal decision and you do it for your own reasons. However, if I had experienced two injury accidents in less than 6 months and wanted to continue riding, I would certainly be considering a fair range of options.
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BuddyRaton
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard braking suggestions? Reply with quote

EricV wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
aremyers wrote:
Any suggestion for hard braking generally, or specifically on wet pavement?

ABS. I'm not being flippant. ABS is the precise solution to letting your panic response override your knowledge/experience about controlled braking. That is why my regular ride is an ABS equipped bike.


While it's unrealistic for someone to replace their scooter in many cases, there is a inexpensive mimic of ABS that may actually help in situations that the OP described. I've seen these advertised but don't have any personal experience with them. LINK


You're not going to get ABS for $15. That is probably one of the most misleading and dangerous items ever thought of, sold, or fitted to any scooter. It is a dump valve. Just when you need maximum control over braking it dumps off your brake hydraulics reducing braking capability...nice.

It takes an expert rider to do an equal to or better job than true ABS. In general it is a better idea not to out ride one's skill level.

I am a firm believer in true scooter ABS and have had it kick in more than once on my commuter scooter.

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EricV
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have ABS on my motorcycles and have for decades. I appreciate the value and usefulness of it in real world conditions. I've also spent a lot of time practicing threshold braking on bikes and in cars, but on the road with unknown hazards that you don't always see, ABS is better than I am.

I also know that the $15 widgit isn't true ABS. If it has any value or usefulness, I don't know. OTOH, if it helps someone that has a tendency to lock up brakes in the wet, not lock up the brakes, it may be a useful experiment for the cost.
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aremyers
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for these suggestions, everyone! I have taken and passed the Team Oregon Intermediate Rider Training, but I find that having practiced in a dry parking lot with nothing to make my adrenaline surge didn't adequately prepare me for wet weather hard braking in the real world. Once I get my mirror repaired, I'll log some time in a wet parking lot to see if I can drill a more appropriate response into my body.

I actually hadn't considered replacing the scooter, but I may try to find one with ABS in the next year or so - it seems like a worthwhile investment, to say the least.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Shocked
Can we delve a little deeper into how that "ABS valve" is supposed to work (in theory)? Where is the excess pressure/fluid supposed to go? It doesn't look like it has much of a reservoir to dump it into, does it vent (highly caustic, toxic) brake fluid DIRECTLY to atmosphere/street? Even if it does retain a tiny amount of fluid inside itself to lower pressure, how does that fluid get back into the braking system? And if it doesn't get back in, and doesn't vent/dump, it's essentially one time use? It looks like a teeny-tiny hammer arrestor like you'd put on your pipes in your house.

So many questions.

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scootERIK
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of tires are you riding on? How many miles on them? How old are they? What tire pressure do you run?
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EricV
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhillyKick wrote:
Shocked Shocked
Can we delve a little deeper into how that "ABS valve" is supposed to work (in theory)? Where is the excess pressure/fluid supposed to go? It doesn't look like it has much of a reservoir to dump it into, does it vent (highly caustic, toxic) brake fluid DIRECTLY to atmosphere/street? Even if it does retain a tiny amount of fluid inside itself to lower pressure, how does that fluid get back into the braking system? And if it doesn't get back in, and doesn't vent/dump, it's essentially one time use? It looks like a teeny-tiny hammer arrestor like you'd put on your pipes in your house.

So many questions.


It's a pretty simple device. Stock on some GY6 scooters. It's not going to cause a loss of fluid and "dumps" nothing. There isn't a reservoir in a typical sense of the word. It's a pressure valve of sorts that allows a re-circulation thru the valve when set pressure is exceeded. It's not a one time use device. I'd have to do some more research to give a better explanation. Sorry, no time now. I've seen them before and I'm sure there is a pretty good explanation of it on YouTube somewhere. Very Happy

Brake systems by definition are closed systems. Your voiced concerns are nearly all not applicable to the device in question.
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charlie55
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a little write-up about mechanical ABS:

https://motorino.ca/technology/abs-braking

I think PhillyKick's comparison to a hammer arrestor is a good analogy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eliu01;
Call them and ask about the H4 LED replacement kit, which is what I had to do.
It's very simple to install and works great.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EricV wrote:

Brake systems by definition are closed systems. Your voiced concerns are nearly all not applicable to the device in question.

Oh, I'm very aware of how normal brake systems work, I just couldn't figure out this little wonder-valve. At least we all agree that THAT particular item is basically rolling litigation waiting to happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

charlie55 wrote:
Here's a little write-up about mechanical ABS:

https://motorino.ca/technology/abs-braking

I think PhillyKick's comparison to a hammer arrestor is a good analogy.


Thank you charlie55, that was exactly what I was thinking of.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EricV wrote:
PhillyKick wrote:
Shocked Shocked
Can we delve a little deeper into how that "ABS valve" is supposed to work (in theory)? Where is the excess pressure/fluid supposed to go? It doesn't look like it has much of a reservoir to dump it into, does it vent (highly caustic, toxic) brake fluid DIRECTLY to atmosphere/street? Even if it does retain a tiny amount of fluid inside itself to lower pressure, how does that fluid get back into the braking system? And if it doesn't get back in, and doesn't vent/dump, it's essentially one time use? It looks like a teeny-tiny hammer arrestor like you'd put on your pipes in your house.

So many questions.


It's a pretty simple device. Stock on some GY6 scooters. It's not going to cause a loss of fluid and "dumps" nothing. There isn't a reservoir in a typical sense of the word. It's a pressure valve of sorts that allows a re-circulation thru the valve when set pressure is exceeded. It's not a one time use device. I'd have to do some more research to give a better explanation. Sorry, no time now. I've seen them before and I'm sure there is a pretty good explanation of it on YouTube somewhere. Very Happy

Brake systems by definition are closed systems. Your voiced concerns are nearly all not applicable to the device in question.


Yeah I wasn't clear. By dump I meant dump psi...not volume.

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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scootERIK wrote:
What kind of tires are you riding on? How many miles on them? How old are they? What tire pressure do you run?

These are good questions. The OEM tires which come on the Buddy are nothing special. Also, tire compounds become hard and much less "grippy" after 5 or 6 years. I run Continental Zippy 1's on our Buddy and change them out every few years regardless of actual wear. I also check tire pressure every week or so.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuddyRaton wrote:
EricV wrote:
PhillyKick wrote:
Shocked Shocked
Can we delve a little deeper into how that "ABS valve" is supposed to work (in theory)? Where is the excess pressure/fluid supposed to go? It doesn't look like it has much of a reservoir to dump it into, does it vent (highly caustic, toxic) brake fluid DIRECTLY to atmosphere/street? Even if it does retain a tiny amount of fluid inside itself to lower pressure, how does that fluid get back into the braking system? And if it doesn't get back in, and doesn't vent/dump, it's essentially one time use? It looks like a teeny-tiny hammer arrestor like you'd put on your pipes in your house.

So many questions.


It's a pretty simple device. Stock on some GY6 scooters. It's not going to cause a loss of fluid and "dumps" nothing. There isn't a reservoir in a typical sense of the word. It's a pressure valve of sorts that allows a re-circulation thru the valve when set pressure is exceeded. It's not a one time use device. I'd have to do some more research to give a better explanation. Sorry, no time now. I've seen them before and I'm sure there is a pretty good explanation of it on YouTube somewhere. Very Happy

Brake systems by definition are closed systems. Your voiced concerns are nearly all not applicable to the device in question.


Yeah I wasn't clear. By dump I meant dump psi...not volume.


A blurb from the link.
The rider should always bear in mind however, that, unlike the computer-controlled ABS used in cars, you can still lock the wheels by applying excessive brake input. The ABS on your MOTORINO™ can help you maintain control in marginal situations but does not do all the thinking for you.

So this system does not provide the "anti" in the Anti Lock scenario. In other words...if you freak and grab as much brake as you can...you WILL lock up.

I have have and have had true ABS on more than one bike. On the Burgman Exec I was doing 70 mph on I95 one time and had a semi jacknife in front of me. I had room...but it's still pretty scary to have a trailer sliding across your lane.

I grabbed as much brake as possible...felt the levers pulsing...and grabbed harder. I stopped true and straight with no consequences. THAT is how ABS truly works. On my BMW it seems to kick in a little earlier but with the same results.

Basically my advice is don't buy that crap.

Please note that I an a hard core vintage rider. Mostly drums front and back so I have a lot of experience with less than ideal braking systems. Except for my 67 GT which I converted to fully (not semi) hydraulic front disc brake. Not cheap, not easy to do...very worthwhile.

Excellent point on tires and tire pressure. Crap tires are going to give crap results, low air pressure is dangerous and a result of poor maintenance habits.

You only have two tires and two brakes. Learn how to use them properly and maintain them and all will be good

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charlie55
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuddyRaton wrote:
BuddyRaton wrote:
EricV wrote:
PhillyKick wrote:
Shocked Shocked
Can we delve a little deeper into how that "ABS valve" is supposed to work (in theory)? Where is the excess pressure/fluid supposed to go? It doesn't look like it has much of a reservoir to dump it into, does it vent (highly caustic, toxic) brake fluid DIRECTLY to atmosphere/street? Even if it does retain a tiny amount of fluid inside itself to lower pressure, how does that fluid get back into the braking system? And if it doesn't get back in, and doesn't vent/dump, it's essentially one time use? It looks like a teeny-tiny hammer arrestor like you'd put on your pipes in your house.

So many questions.


It's a pretty simple device. Stock on some GY6 scooters. It's not going to cause a loss of fluid and "dumps" nothing. There isn't a reservoir in a typical sense of the word. It's a pressure valve of sorts that allows a re-circulation thru the valve when set pressure is exceeded. It's not a one time use device. I'd have to do some more research to give a better explanation. Sorry, no time now. I've seen them before and I'm sure there is a pretty good explanation of it on YouTube somewhere. Very Happy

Brake systems by definition are closed systems. Your voiced concerns are nearly all not applicable to the device in question.


Yeah I wasn't clear. By dump I meant dump psi...not volume.


A blurb from the link.
The rider should always bear in mind however, that, unlike the computer-controlled ABS used in cars, you can still lock the wheels by applying excessive brake input. The ABS on your MOTORINO™ can help you maintain control in marginal situations but does not do all the thinking for you.

So this system does not provide the "anti" in the Anti Lock scenario. In other words...if you freak and grab as much brake as you can...you WILL lock up.

I have have and have had true ABS on more than one bike. On the Burgman Exec I was doing 70 mph on I95 one time and had a semi jacknife in front of me. I had room...but it's still pretty scary to have a trailer sliding across your lane.

I grabbed as much brake as possible...felt the levers pulsing...and grabbed harder. I stopped true and straight with no consequences. THAT is how ABS truly works. On my BMW it seems to kick in a little earlier but with the same results.

Basically my advice is don't buy that crap.

Please note that I an a hard core vintage rider. Mostly drums front and back so I have a lot of experience with less than ideal braking systems. Except for my 67 GT which I converted to fully (not semi) hydraulic front disc brake. Not cheap, not easy to do...very worthwhile.

Excellent point on tires and tire pressure. Crap tires are going to give crap results, low air pressure is dangerous and a result of poor maintenance habits.

You only have two tires and two brakes. Learn how to use them properly and maintain them and all will be good


Two brakes? What, feets don't count? Very Happy

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jrsjr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aremyers wrote:
I actually hadn't considered replacing the scooter, but I may try to find one with ABS in the next year or so - it seems like a worthwhile investment, to say the least.

I am our resident safety fanatic and, normally, I am all about training. My advice to you, straight up, is ABS. No kidding. The old joke about ABS - It pays for itself the very first time it saves your life. If you want to stick with scooters, there are some Piaggio products that have ABS which aren't terribly spendy. The Piaggio Liberty 150 ABS lists for $3099, so that's an option. Prices (and motor sizes and weight) go up from there.

Sorry that you are having a bit of a rough time, but I can definitely empathize. I had a wreck very early in my riding career while turning right and still am less confident turning right than left. It took me years to stop from panicking and giving a little jerk when setting up for a sharp right turn. I know from reading posts that I am not the only one, either.

Good Luck!!!
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