2009 Pamplona 150cc - Please help! Trouble starting!

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:04 pm

Hello everyone,

I used to own a Buddy 125, and I recently picked up a used 2009 Pamplona with only 2800 miles. Owned by an elderly couple, not ridden much lately. The local mechanic facilitated the transaction, and told me "he went through the whole scooter and blew out the carb, changed the oil, etc."

When I test rode it he had warmed it up real good, so it started and drove great. I rode it home about 10 miles and parked it for 4 days. When I tried to fire it up Thursday, it wouldn't start. I tried for about 15 minutes and finally with a little throttle got it to start, and then it kept dying on me. Eventually, I got it started, warmed up and then it drove great. Next day, same issue, wouldn't start right away, but lots of attempts it finally got warm and drove great.

What could be the problem getting it started?

Bad spark plug?
Old gas?
Old battery (etched with a knife is June/2015 on battery)

Also, the scooter wouldn't go over an indicated 62mph, so it feels a little under-powered.

The most I have ever done on one of these is changed the engine oil and gear oil.

I am hesitant to bring back to same mechanic because I feel he probably didn't do a good job the first time, and he didn't know the scooter had gear oil when I asked him.

Thanks!

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:27 am

Since the engine seems to run fine when warmed up, I'd check the auto enricher (choke), the black thing located on the left side of carb, to make sure its electrical connector is plugged in and that the enricher is actually working.

As far as your indicated top speed of 62 mph, thats about normal for a 125 Buddy. Some have gotten a little bit more but they also weight about 125lb, heh. My Buddy 150 tops out at around 66 mph indicated on level ground.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 pm

Thanks so much for the reply, I will ask the mechanic about that. I think I will try to replace the spark plug, and if that doesn't solve it have the mechanic look it over and check the choke.

I sold my buddy 125, and this new one is a 150cc Pamplona.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:39 pm

Changing the plug is not difficult. Check the gap of the new plug and don't over tighten when reinstalling. Take a look at the plug's rubber boot and make sure it's in good condition. I put a tiny amount of dielectric grease on the inside edges of the boot (not on the plug). Youtube has an excellent video called "Dielectric--The PROPER way to apply it". You can buy a tiny pkg. of it at an auto parts store.
You may also want to remove the two terminal wires (neg. first--then pos.) attaching to the battery (under the floor compartment) and take a piece of sandpaper and really shine up the battery posts and the end of the wires, then reattach (pos. first, then neg.). I've had issues where the scoot ran fine, but would suddenly not start and those areas had oxidation (I guess) and just by shining them up it started right away.
If the 150 has a kick start I'd try that and see if the scoot starts more easily. That gives you some info. about the cause of the problem.
After you warm up the scooter and ride it, does it start right back up easily?
The battery does not seem very old, but you could remove it and have it tested. Here in the north, because our scooters sit for months without being ridden, we remove the battery and charge it from time to time with a little charger
You may also want to look at the fuel filter and inspect it for any obvious junk. It's probably not the problem as the scooter runs fine.
Seems like the problem is either electrical or fuel related.
Good luck and let us know how things go. You'll learn a lot by working on the scoot. a little at a time.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:45 pm

Thanks so much - that was very helpful! Yes, once it's warm and I have ridden around and established a good idle, I can turn it off and then fire it right up again - what does that mean?

Also, if I kickstart it, does that bypass anything else besides the battery or is it just the battery that is being bypassed?

I will try what you suggested about the battery terminals in addition to the spark plug. By the way, it looks like the stock tool kit came with a tool that might be able to change the plug - I don't own a socket set that is deep enough for it. Is the spark plug location the same as on a 50cc? I found a video on youtube for a Buddy 50cc, but that's all.

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:02 am

For the 125, the spark plug is on the side of the engine is easiest to access if you pull the curved front panel under the front seat hinge. One screw, top center, three along the bottom, and pry it out. The spark plug will be on the right side of the cylinder head. You'll need a 5/8ths spark plug socket too, as opposed to the larger 13/16ths you'd been using for the 50cc.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:11 am

I misspoke when i said the auto choke might not be working. Another member reminded me that the auto choke on these carbs are always on and is turned off when the enrichment valve heats up after a few minutes of running. I should have known that since older carburetted cars (which I've done a lot of work on) work pretty much the same way. If the scooter has sat without being ridden for a long time, there is a good chance the low speed passages in the carb are clogged. Try running a few tanks of gas with either Seafoam or Chevron Techron. Techron is a little more aggressive so thats what I would use.
Also, check the setting of the idle screw on the carb. The factory setting for a 150 engine is 1.5 turns out from closed. Keep in mind that this is only a starting point and the screw must be fine tuned for optimal performance.
Make sure the air filter isn't all clogged up too.
Hope this helps.

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:42 am

I also misspoke, meant to say that this is the spark location for the 150. It's the same for all 4t buddys though, on the right side of the cylinder head.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:31 am

I 2nd the idea of adding Seafoam into the gas tank and running that through. (The directions for how much for small engines are on the can.) It may help clear small carb. jets if they are blocked. I don't know for sure.
Also, as mentioned, removing the air filter cover (on the left side of the Buddy 125) and seeing if the filter is dirty or smells like gas is a good idea. I doubt that is the problem, but you'll know the condition of the filter. Keep track of the many screws removing the cover. I think some are of different lengths.
By the way, the first time I replaced the spark plug I managed to drop it into the compartment around the engine and had to use a magnet to get it back out. The kit that comes with the Buddy 125 includes the spark plug socket so yours may fit too.
That's a good question: Does kick starting the engine bypass anything besides the battery? I don't know. I hope someone else will answer that. It may help shine some light on the problem.
Since it starts right back up after being ridden a while, I wonder if the battery is the problem.
Keep us posted. Good luck.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:00 pm

This is all so helpful! I am going to try and work on it this weekend. I have three children 8 and under so time evades me!

Just to summarize:

I will replace the spark plug with an NGK plug which comes pre-gapped to .7mm
I will disconnect the battery and shine up the posts with sandpaper
I will take off the dust cover and inspect the air filter and clean if necessary
I will buy either seafoam or chevron techron (does that come in a bottle?) and run it through the engine, perhaps by taking it on a long drive

Thank you again for all of the wonderful advice!

-Kevin

Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:05 am

BlackRider125 wrote:I will buy either seafoam or chevron techron (does that come in a bottle?)

Yes, techron comes in a bottle. Seafoam comes in a can.

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:17 am

If you go NGK, it's a CR7HSA

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:59 pm

Update: I bought an NGK spark plug from autozone CR7HSA for $2.49 and installed it last night using the buddy tool kit that comes with (someone was thinking ahead!). The old one looked pretty brownish, but not corroded. Afterwards, I was able to get the scooter to turn over on the 2nd try, but it was still having a rough idle and needed throttle to stay on. It died as I was putting my helmet on. I started again and took for a quick ride and then it stayed warm. I think the spark plug was a factor, but I would like to get it to the place where it stays on and has a good idle right at start up. I am going to buy some techron from walmart this weekend - 10oz for $4.99. I will put 1 oz in and run a whole fresh tank through this weekend - hopefully this will help! I will keep you posted!

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Your idle may actually be too low. During the initial warm up, the engine should run a bit fast, and then settle down into a normal idle once warmed up. If it's seeming to be a normal slow idle when you first start up, it's likely that the idle adjuster needs to be turned up a little.

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:09 pm

Also, if the vacuum activated fuel valve is deteriorating, you may be getting fuel seepage while it's sitting. You can test this fairly easily by pulling the fuel line at the carb, and starting the bike. Fuel should start flowing from the line. Shut the bike back off, and after a second or so, fuel flow should stop. If it doesn't, you need a new fuel valve. If that's the case, you can get any buddy 50, 125, or 150 fuel valve, they were all the same unit.

greginisn · Post by **greginisn** » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:01 am

I am not familiar with the vacuum system on your scooter but consider checking all vacuum hoses to make sure they aren't cracked and leaking air. You may want to replace those old vacuum hoses just cuz anyway.

Also, I've been thinking about this for some time and just have to wonder if you need to do a valve clearance adjustment. Since the scooter is a 2009 model and the maintenance history is unknown, why not?

If previous owner was running gasahol in the scooter it can really crud up a carb to the point of barely working at all if fuel is left to stand in the carb for any major length of time. Older fuel stabilizers didn't address that problem so the carb might need an actual physical cleaning with a human gently probing all the Jet openings with strands of copper wire to make sure there aren't any alcohol boogers lodged in the jets. carb cleaner won't necessarily clean those boogers out. They'll need to be poked out.

Good luck, Greg

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 pm

I second turning up the idle screw a little. It's easy to access and simple to do.
The scooter should idle a bit fast until it warms up, which can take approx. 4 or more mins. Then the idle drops back down on its own. I actually wait for this to happen before I ride, but others say that is unnecessary.
I also 2nd the Techron (sp) or Seafoam. It won't hurt. If the scooter idles nicely, smoothly when it's warmed up, esp. as you are accelerating that is good news.
Start with the simple things first.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:51 pm

Update: Thanks again to all who have offering their excellent know-how.

The scooter has been starting much faster since installing the new spark plug, but it was in need of a little throttle yesterday. Once warm, maintained a great idle. I took it to Chevron and the gas needle was on empty, with maybe 1/4 gallon left in the tank. I added 4 oz. of seafoam and topped it off with 89 octane Chevron with techron. Started purring and got it to indicated 65 mph and was planning to go on a long ride. Rode about 10 miles and then went up into some hills with some steep grades - suddenly started lurching and gasping and lost power down to about 30 mph. Freaked me out. I babied down the hill and it kept doing it until I made it back through the hills. I pulled over and turned it off, and when I went to restart it the battery sounded near dead. I took it to autozone and they tested and it came back "bad battery" even though it had a full charge. They wanted $60 for a battery. I went home and ordered a Mighty Max YTX7A-BS from wal-mart for $21.99 free ship no tax. I am going to take my old one to another shop to get a 2nd opinion.

So was the loss of power due to elevation change, bad battery, or something else?

Thank you!

Stanza · Post by **Stanza** » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:38 pm

A bad battery would not cause the bike to stall, lurch, or do anything like what you are describing. The bike will even run without a battery installed, you'll just lose horn, turn signals, and obviously the electric start. If the battery sounded near dead, how did it seem during kickstart? Wonder if you were overheating....if the mainjet is partially plugged, you may have been encountering a lean-run situation, and an overheat.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:09 pm

I think that definitely could have been it. Once I got back on to level ground it started acting normal again and reaching 60mph. I will try to kickstart it and see how it responds. Can carbed scooters generally handle hills okay or is there an issue with the elevation? I live at sea level on the coast but I imagine I was up at 1000-1500 elevation while riding.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:54 pm

Something else is the problem, not a "bad battery" or hills or elevation, although the scooter is not going to go up steep hills at 65 mph. You are riding very fast at 65 mph---like WOT often. Allow the Seafoam time to work. The issue sounds fuel related.
To be honest, I feel concern for you going that fast. Not sure what the tire size is on the 150, but I just don't think the Buddy's 10" wheels are safe at those speeds. Take care.

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:36 pm

Thank you so much for thinking about that. I really do not prefer to be riding that fast, but my neighborhood only has one entrance and it's right next to a highway that people go 60-65 mph, so the only way to leave the neighborhood is to go out on that hwy. I am going to see if I can get it started with or without the battery this week, I don't have a lot of time to ride during the week, so I didn't get the whole tank of gas and seafoam through the system yet.

-Kevin

BlackRider125 · Post by **BlackRider125** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:47 pm

Update:

Thanks again for everyone's help - this forum is a lifesaver! I was able to install the Mighty Max battery which I bought from Walmart online (No tax, free shipping, $21.99!) and that went in with a little difficulty. The screw wasn't long enough to reach the nut through the leads, so I had to invent a little paper liner out of construction paper to lift the nut higher, and I left a tab on it to be able to pull out with pliers at the end. I took the scoot to a local cycle shop that has a good reputation, and boy do they ever! The technician was on his lunch break and he came out and listened to it idle - in 5 minutes or less, he had the whole seat and storage removed and was twisting the fuel mixture screw, and then he adjusted the idle, sounded like it was new again! (He did this free of charge!)

This has not fully solved the perfect start up solution I was hoping for, but it's running great and starts with no issues and needs a tiny little throttle and that's it.
Lastly, I went to change the gear oil yesterday and yep, of course I was distracted while working and over-tightened the wrong direction. Could not get the bolt to tighten after the oil change and it started leaking. Came to the forum and found out that this is pretty common. I went to autozone today and bought a M8 1.25 16mm flange bolt to replace the M8 1.25 12mm flange bolt and then I purchased a soft metal 5/16 washer (M8 equivalent). Came home, and daubed a q-tip gently up in the case with a little gear oil on it looking for any more loose shavings and got two small flecks. could not get any more, so then I threaded the new bolt and washer on and it fit like a glove! Went for a ride and no leaks!

I would be in real trouble without this thread - so I wanted to say thank you again!!!!

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 pm

Am happy things worked out pretty well for you. Adjusting the air/fuel mixture screw was a good idea. Nice job correcting the gear fluid bolt situation. Stay safe.