Trouble getting 170i to start or keep idle after three years

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NinjaMunkee
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Trouble getting 170i to start or keep idle after three years

Post by NinjaMunkee »

Hi, all.

After a three-year hiatus, I decided to restart the 170i again, and of course the battery was kaput. However, even after connecting it to a healthy battery, the scooter is having trouble starting. The starter motor keeps trying and on the rare occasion where it does start the engine, it can't keep idle for more than a few seconds, and it dies when I open the throttle.

Should I have put in fuel stabilizer, or is gunky fuel unlikely to be the culprit given that it's fuel-injected?

What can I do now to get the bike to maintain idle?

Thanks in advance!
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Post by GregsBuddy »

The fuel IS the problem. Drain the fuel and fill with fresh high octane. You'll be fine.
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

I'll try that and update this thread. Thanks!
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Post by cummingsjc »

Three year old ethanol fuel is probably the issue. I agree that draining the fuel and starting with fresh fuel is probably the best option. It probably wouldn't hurt to add some Seafoam the the new fuel in case any residual fuel is in the system.
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

Yes, that makes sense, but I think I'm stuck at step 1. Can anybody help?

I can't figure out how to drain the fuel. The owner's manual that came with the 170i, on page 36 titled "Fuel draining device (fuel injection engine only)", includes a pictorial diagram with callout to a mythical drain valve that, unless I'm blind, I cannot find in my bike. See the pictures for (a) the "fuel draining device" instructions, and (b) an actual picture of my bike's guts with no discernible drain valve, both at https://app.box.com/s/p7dsgv631hainivhy18lf6mlkgswjpc3 .

(Sorry if this has been addressed in the forums. I ran searches on variations of "drain", "fuel", "valve", and "170i", and found nothing.)
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DeeDee
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Post by DeeDee »

You're going to need to get a syphon pump. One of those squeeze bulbs with hose on each end. If the fuel has crap floating in it, add another quart and shake it side to side. Repeat until no more crap.
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Stanza
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Post by Stanza »

If you changed the battery, you need to reset the throttle position sensor. Disconnect the battery, and turn on the ignition to clear any remaining juice from the ecu. Turn ignition back off, and reinstall the battery.

Now, reset the throttle position sensor using the following steps.

Hold throttle at wide open position (full throttle)
Turn ignition key on, while holding throttle.
Wait for engine light to turn off.
Turn ignition off.
Release throttle
Start as per usual.

Assuming no other problems (bad gas?) it should start up and behave normally.
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

Thanks for the tips. I'll update the thread after my siphon pump arrives and I've tried to recalibrate the throttle position sensor.
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Point37
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Post by Point37 »

^^^what these guys said...always do the easy stuff first to rule it out...remove fuel...siphon out of tank then drain through fuel hose...add seafoam to new fuel in tank...don't overfill tank...try to start...if it doesn't start loosen or remove the fuel cap for a possible vacuum issue starving the engine...if it doesn't start maybe give it a day for the seafoam to work and retry...if it still doesn't work...pull and check/test/clean/replace the spark plug...after that it could be a fuel pump issue or electrical issue
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Don't forget to check the oil level if it has been sitting that long. Once running I would suggest changing the oil, filter and gear lube

Probably a dirty injector and as mentioned bad gas. Just keep us updated and we'll get you running again.

I wouldn't start chasing pump and electrical for quite awhile. If you do want to check the pump you can disconnect the fuel line. get a container to catch gas, turn the ignition on and see if it pumps.
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Wertles
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Post by Wertles »

I’ve brought a couple of these back from storage now. Biggest thing is to just run it. The last one I did took me 45 minutes to just fire. Would not idle and required constant throttle input. I didn’t even siphon out the old gas (great if you have the ability) but I was in a remote location with limited resources and just added some fresh on top and about a 1/2 can of Seafoam. . Once it started, I could get it out on the road and by 10 miles, it ran as smooth as the day it came off the showroom floor. Idle was perfect. Then change all the oils.
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NinjaMunkee
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

Thanks for the tips and input so far!

So here's what's happened. I dumped in a half can of Seafoam and two days later my new battery and fuel siphon pump arrived. However, rather than try to siphon the fuel, I figured I'd just try to start it up again and it worked! Twice! Now, I didn't bother to isolate whether it was the Seafoam or new battery or both that worked, but I was so happy that I just went out for a ride.

After riding for about 20 miles (which probably only burnt about a quart of fuel, yes there are drawbacks to having such an efficient vehicle), I decided to stop at a local restaurant for some fried fish. You know what's coming next. No, not that. The fried fish was perfect, but when I tried to start up the Buddy, it just wouldn't start. After trying to crank it a few times, it started to feel sluggish, as if the battery (or possibly starter motor?) was giving up.

So my questions now are: (1) does cranking the starter really take enough juice to drain a brand new fully charged battery? (2) if not, then can the sluggish starting attempts be attributed to something else and if so what? (3) is fried fish worth getting stranded and having to take a Lyft home?

I think the answer to (3) is yes, but I'm not sure about (1) and (2). Any insights?

By the way, the throttle position sensor reset went fine, and the oil levels were okay, though I of course intend to change the oil as soon as I can get the bike home.
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Post by Dooglas »

If you are asking whether you can drain a fully charged 12v scooter battery by repeatedly cycling the starter, the answer is certainly yes. The real question is why it wouldn't start. In a better world, running the engine for half an hour with a heavy dose of Seafoam would clean out the fuel system. Obviously that didn't solve your problem. This pretty much takes you back to basics - fuel, spark, air.
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babblefish
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Post by babblefish »

"I dumped in a half can of Seafoam..."

That's an awful lot of Seafoam. I think it's suppose to be one ounce per gallon of gas.
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

Douglas, thanks for confirming that cranking the starter a few times can run down a new battery to where it won't support more cranks.

The scooter turns on like a beaut on a fully-charged battery or on a jump from a healthy battery, but it seems to run down the fully-charged battery quite quickly to the point where the battery won't have enough juice for normal starts. Could it be the my alternator is not charging the battery when the scooter is running?

As to the Seafoam, thanks for the pointer. Half the can was an exaggeration, though I did add more than an ounce (probably about 3 oz), which you are correct to point out treats a gallon.
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Dooglas
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Post by Dooglas »

Sure, it is possible that your stator or voltage regulator has failed. If that is true, the battery would completely discharge while running and would finally not be able to turn over the starter motor at all. It is fairly easy to test the output of your scooter's charging system with a multimeter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS58b5jZ0ic
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Wertles
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Post by Wertles »

You can run a whole lot of seafoam without any issue. Much more than one ounce per gallon. I have run an entire can in a 3 gallon fuel tank on a motorcycle. Many of the fuel injector cleaning machines are running straight Seafoam. It will smoke you out of house and home but at least there will be no mosquitos around. Seafoam is not as explosive as gasoline so ignition will be just a tad harder than straight gas but I wouldn’t expect a half a can in a tank as the cause of your problem.

Not sure what your problem is. I’ve got ideas but none of them internet worthy. I’d get the battery charged back up, I would top off with some fresh gas and once you do get it started again, I suggest only rides that both start and end at your house until it proves itself reliable.
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Point37
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Post by Point37 »

as was said you can discharge a battery trying to start it over and over just like a car but even if you did you should still be able to kick start it...you said you have a new battery so that can't be the problem but you could always bring it to autozone and have them test it to rule it out...next time this happens take the fuel cap off and start it to confirm you don't have a tank venting problem causing a vacuum...rule out a tank venting issue
babblefish wrote:"I dumped in a half can of Seafoam..."

That's an awful lot of Seafoam. I think it's suppose to be one ounce per gallon of gas.
^^^this...1oz seafoam/gallon of gas...seafoam can has 16oz in it...your tank is 1.5 gallons max...probably less since some of that volume isn't usable depending where the pump pulls from and the pump takes up some of that volume and you probably didn't have a full tank to begin with...so you added over 5 times the recommended amount...it burns hotter than gas...

so while it should have cleaned everything really well i would now siphon out the fuel and dump it into your car...add 1 gallon new fuel and 1 oz of seafoam...rule the fuel out

next pull your air filter and see how it looks...if it's not bad just blow it out with an air compressor...if its really black just replace it cause no matter how hard you try you're not going to be able to get it clean...rule the air out

next pull your spark plug and carefully clean that with a wire brush so as not to change the gap...check the gap...reconnect it to the rubber wire and ground it on the engine and and try to start it to check spark and reinstall...or just replace it if it looks really bad...rule spark out

after all this...then maybe look at fuel hoses, fuel pump, voltage regulator, alternator, stator, electrical gremlins, etc...always do the cheap and easy stuff first when dealing with small engines
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Post by NinjaMunkee »

Hi, all. Just wanted to close the loop on the great tips folks have provided. In short, I replaced the battery and old fuel in the fuel tank, and the scooter has been starting and running like new! These little machines really are quite bulletproof!
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Post by BuddyRaton »

cheap and easy fixes are my favorites!
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'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
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