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Looking into transmission tuning

 
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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 31
Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Looking into transmission tuning Reply with quote

I have a 2014 completely stock Roughhouse that has been derestricted. I have been looking into tuning the transmission to get a bit quicker acceleration and smooth out the initial take off. I assume all stock RH start slowly for a couple seconds then have a sudden jump in acceleration and rpm. I started the process looking into a NCY super trans kit
( https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Super-Trans-Kit-QMB139-Buddy-50-RoughHouse-P1420.aspx ) and then researched what each part actually did. I'm now leaning to just changing clutch springs, rollers, and contra spring with these. https://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Compression-Spring-Performance-QMB139-P1330.aspx, https://www.scooterworks.com/Prima-Roller-Weight-Tuning-Kit-16x13-3g-to-14g-P1935.aspx, and https://www.ebay.com/itm/Malossi-Racing-Clutch-Springs-for-Genuine-Buddy-Roughhouse/152995788963?hash=item239f4278a3:g:ZJMAAOSwsaZa3yya
The things I'm unsure of are the importance of the other items in the kit. Does the housing that the rollers go in have different angles allowing them to travel differently? Is changing the weights but keeping the same angle going to leave the shifting feeling the same just change the rpm it happens? Has anyone gone this route and where is a good starting point? I was thinking 6.5 grams on weights and the blue clutch springs. I've also been looking into the peak HP and RPM relationship. I can't find what RPM that is and what I need to exactly do to get my motor to achieve the RPM as quick as possible and then stay at that point. I appreciate any help and personal experience.
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dasscooter
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Joined: 14 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before you spend all that money and time, start with installing some 7.5G rollers (not sliders). Size should be 16x13 if I remember right. Stock weight is 8.5G.

If you decide you still want more, upgrade the contra spring in the original clutch
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RoaringTodd
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Joined: 23 Jul 2012
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Location: Philly, PA
'04 Stella GB150 '15 Roughhouse '17 Versys 650.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed the NCY kit - regretted it because it seems slower than before and has no re-acceleration. It is not a plug and play - you will need to play around with the rollers and pulleys to get it set up correctly.

Read my ride report "4 Days on RH50" for more information.

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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoaringTodd wrote:
I installed the NCY kit - regretted it because it seems slower than before and has no re-acceleration. It is not a plug and play - you will need to play around with the rollers and pulleys to get it set up correctly.

Read my ride report "4 Days on RH50" for more information.


Sounds like you had a great adventure, makes me want to try something like that. Did you ever get get the weights where you are happy with them? Thanks for your feedback.
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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dasscooter wrote:
Before you spend all that money and time, start with installing some 7.5G rollers (not sliders). Size should be 16x13 if I remember right. Stock weight is 8.5G.

If you decide you still want more, upgrade the contra spring in the original clutch


After reading this I have been doing more research. I found a couple places put the RH at 4.8hp @ 7000rpm. I am going to get a $10 tachometer from amazon and the prima variety pack of roller weights. My goal will be to adjust weights untill I get a steady 7000rpm at wot durring acceleration. I understand that keeping the weights 120 degrees is important when using two different weights. It looks like this pack only has 3 of each weight so that is what I will have to do. Does anyone know about using two weights and the effect? I am going to try to keep them as close together as possible, for 7.5 that was suggested I would do 3-8gram and 3-7gram. I am curious however what would happen if you widen the gap, something like 3-9gram and 3-6gram.
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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed the tachometer and have been riding around for the last week. What I have noticed is on wide open throttle I am running around 7250 RPM's. My original thoughts were that I was low on rpm and needed to lighten the rollers. The info I had found showed this motor is at peak HP at 7000 RPM is that correct? Not sure what steps to take now. What RPM is to high for these engines? I would like to start playing with the roller weights but I also don't want to get my RPM too high.
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RoaringTodd
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'04 Stella GB150 '15 Roughhouse '17 Versys 650.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following because I have the exact same plan as you - get a tach and then tune the rollers for maximum efficiency. I have the NCY super tranny on mine, and was very disappointed to see that my max speed fell 10 mph.
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tbswope
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoaringTodd wrote:
Following because I have the exact same plan as you - get a tach and then tune the rollers for maximum efficiency. I have the NCY super tranny on mine, and was very disappointed to see that my max speed fell 10 mph.

What is considered maximum efficiency at this point. I see where as people start putting exhaust and intakes on they are looking for higher rpms to get more hp. Isn't the peak hp @ a given rpm going to stay the same? I'm thinking about just going lighter a little bit at a time and watching rpm on tach and going by feel. At some point you get so high on your rpm you would actually start losing power and should be able to feel that.
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RoaringTodd
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'04 Stella GB150 '15 Roughhouse '17 Versys 650.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quicker take off without losing top speed.

Stock I was hitting 50RHPH

Now I hit only 40, although my take off is quicker. (not when coming down a hill and re-accelerating though)

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tbswope
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've swapped out rollers 3 times this evening. I managed to rip the gasket on the cover in half and break a fin off the backside of the pulley. I've also managed to raise RPM and acceleration without losing any top speed. Running 3-5 gram and 3-6 gram right now. Documenting everything and will be out in the garage tomorrow to try some more combinations. Right now I'm happy to see progress and looking forward to getting the best setup. Happy Labor Day weekend everybody.
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RoaringTodd
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'04 Stella GB150 '15 Roughhouse '17 Versys 650.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So.... what's the update? Smile
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lovemysan
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Location: kansas city mo
2009 buddy 125, 2003 myBUBU 125, 2008 Stella

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was just dropping in to say my personal findings were on a stock bike 5.5 -5.75 gr rollers or 6-6.5 gram sliders. I prefer the yellow clutch springs. I wouldn't do much other than that. The next thing I would do is eliminate the "shift" at 25-28 mph. You need to replace the stock clutch driver and get one with straight ramps. I believe this one fits. You can probably find it other places as well. I know nothing about that store. Get the NCY for the DIO or QMB139

http://ncystore.com/ncy-secondary-slider-dio-qmb

How it works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjVhtKaOH04

YMMV

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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 31
Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lovemysan wrote:
Was just dropping in to say my personal findings were on a stock bike 5.5 -5.75 gr rollers or 6-6.5 gram sliders. I prefer the yellow clutch springs. I wouldn't do much other than that. The next thing I would do is eliminate the "shift" at 25-28 mph. You need to replace the stock clutch driver and get one with straight ramps. I believe this one fits. You can probably find it other places as well. I know nothing about that store. Get the NCY for the DIO or QMB139

http://ncystore.com/ncy-secondary-slider-dio-qmb

How it works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjVhtKaOH04

YMMV


Thanks for the input, the "shift" was one thing I was hoping to get rid of that stayed but happens a little earlier now. I feel the main difference between my experience and the video is what the rpms do at the "shift". When I'm stopped and go wot I accelerate slowly with low rpms until "shift" takes place and rpm jump and acceleration doubles. Almost as if the shift is entering a powerband. My way of getting around this has been to just hold the brake and twist the throttle to get rpms up and let go of brake when light changes.


Last edited by tbswope on Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tbswope
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Joined: 05 May 2014
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Location: Charleston, IL
2014 Roughhouse 50

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the delay, got busy and didn't get time to update. First things, all mph are by roughhouse speedo and the tach is slow to react and all rpm readings are just an average of where it spent the most time.
Setup
I went to the end of my road and accelerated to a mailbox I'm guessing to be 300 yards away and noted speed as I passed. I took a sharpie and marked the pulley to see the belt location. The belt was a quarter inch from the edge at all weights, max speed never changed. The max speed was 48 mph and rpm around 8,400.
Findings
Stock weights - 35mph @ 7,300 rpm
(3) 7 gram and (3) 8 gram - same as stock
(3) 6 and (3) 7 - 38mph @ 7,600 rpm
(3) 5 and (3) 6 - 38mph @ 8,100 rpm
(3) 4 and (3) 5 - 31mph @ 8,600 rpm This felt terrible, lot of rev but no power, didn't attempt a max speed run because I didn't want to damage the motor.
(3) 8 and (3) 10 - 31mph @ 6,3000 rpm The "shift" moved to around 35 mph and was very under powered till that point. Once it hit that speed power increased and it accelerated to max quickly but didn't increase max speed.
(3) 5 and (3) 7 - 38mph @ 7,900 rpm This is where I left it.

I felt since the 6/7 and 5/6 combination achieved the same speed I would go between them to drop rpm a little. I feel like I have more power during acceleration then before and the "shift" has moved to a lower speed than stock. The difficulty of changing the weights is very low after initial time. My cover didn't want to come off so in the process I tore the gasket in half. The nut that holds the pulley on then wouldn't break lose with my impact driver so I went to wrenches and tried multiple ways to wedge various things as a backup. Don't rely on the fin on the pulley to do this job, it will break. I eventually got a ratchet wedged between the case and variator edges and once broke loose the impact worked perfect every time. I believe I was swapping weights and riding again in 5 minutes or less. Also, put gloves on as these parts are hotter than you would imagine.
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RoaringTodd
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Location: Philly, PA
'04 Stella GB150 '15 Roughhouse '17 Versys 650.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers mate - thank you for your work on this -

Will have to do this later on my RH when I have more time.

Todd

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