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Replace belt with no impact wrench?

 
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mukaiboston
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Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 5:39 pm    Post subject: Replace belt with no impact wrench? Reply with quote

Usually I take my CVT in yearly to get inspected, but I'm thinking of doing it myself if I can due to the pandemic.

Main problem is that I lack tools. Is it true you don't need an impact wrench and does this trick work for the buddy?

Basically, the guy in the video squeezes the clutch plates together to create space to pull the belt to the clutch's center. That makes the belt loose enough at the other end to slip it over the variator. To put the belt back, he reverses the steps. Anyone ever do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XakWj8YM_P4
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scootERIK
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you going to fully inspect the CVT you will at least need some type of tool to remove the variator. If you don't plan to remove the variator there really isn't a reason to remove the belt. There are instructions on here to make a tool to hold the variator in place using a piece of wood and some screws.

You do have to be careful removing the belt on the Buddy since the CVT housing has a sharp lip that can cut into the belt. But the method in the video will probably work, I haven't try it.

I inspect my CVT every ~4,000 miles or so. The main thing I want to look at are the rollers in the variator. I want to see that they are still round, replacing when they have flat spots. Then I give the variator a good cleaning with brake cleaner or carb cleaner. Next I try to clean up the CVT housing. Give the belt a quick inspection then reassemble.

Usually I just replace the belt every 10-12,000 miles(official recommendation is every 8k.) Rollers get replaced every 4-12,000(the easy way is to replace them when you replace the belt.) You can also take off the clutch and wipe it out, but it isn't that important(do not use brake cleaner by the clutch, you can de-grease the bearings and ruin the it, you can use brake cleaner on the clutch bell.) The clutch can easily go 15k plus with being touched.

Here is a thread on how to make a tool to get the variator off without an impact- http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29963&highlight=variator+tool+measure+drill


EDIT: It is also a good idea to replace the CVT sliders, there are three of them in the variator and they look like a U. I don't know how long they last but you should change them at least every other belt. They are only like $4-6 dollars so it wouldn't cost too much to change them every belt. If one cracks you will ruin the variator.


Last edited by scootERIK on Wed May 27, 2020 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the insights. Hopefully I can at least get the CVT cover off to look around. I know we've got a bunch of DIY people here but I have to admit sometimes that I am not mechanically inclined and risk damaging the scooter just because I don't know what I am doing.

Belt currently has around 8k mi and rollers probably 2.5k.

Belt was inspected a year ago (around the 5.5k mi mark) and the mechanic said it looked good and put it back in. The last time I replaced the belt, it was at about 15k mi and it still looked good. And my buddy 50 never had its belt replaced and I sold that thing at 15k as well.

I did some searching on this forum and I'm seeing people say they replaced at 3k mi or 8k mi....to them, belt looks good at a visual inspection and then one day just snaps. Those stories scare me. That's why I'm thinking replace it anyway no matter what it looks like.
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personality
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made this tool after like 5 beers, and it worked great.
[/img]
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a look through this: http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic32310.html
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scootERIK
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
I did some searching on this forum and I'm seeing people say they replaced at 3k mi or 8k mi....to them, belt looks good at a visual inspection and then one day just snaps. Those stories scare me. That's why I'm thinking replace it anyway no matter what it looks like.


I have never snapped a belt and I have had belts with over 15,000 miles on them*. Honestly I don't even think of changing them until 12,000 miles. BUT that is only for the Bando brand belts(watch out for fakes if you buy off of ebay.) I had a Gates belt fail after less than 3,000 miles, it didn't snap but there was a chunk torn loose.

Changing a belt is usually cheaper then getting a tow if you do snap a belt.



*The belt on my scooter right now is close to 17,000 miles(odometer miles.)
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I managed to get the CVT cover off after removing all the screws and banging on it to loosen it off.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for but I don't see any cracks or frayed edges or anything. I placed an order on Scooterworks for a new belt and some sliders so I'll contemplate whether or not I want to attempt this or try to get to a mechanic while I wait for the shipment to arrive.
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dan v.
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first got into scooters and their care a few tools were indispensable.
Impact wrench to remove the nuts, and a torque wrench to install the nuts.

A Harbor Freight $40- electric impact, and their $10- torque wrench do the job for a reasonable cost if you have no other suitable tools.

The end of the crankshaft is not all that big, and hamfisted work can be costly. Too tight, or too loose on the nuts could cause the threads to be damaged and a re-crank job is not cheap. Crying or Very sad
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tenders
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You jerks are making me get a new tool for Father’s Day.

On the belt you’re measuring belt width, which wears down over time after being squeezed and pulled between the two sets of pulleys for thousands of miles. And looking for signs of cracking, errant threads, etc. I don’t know the specs for the Buddy yet since I haven’t had to do this myself but on most scoots wear beyond 1-1.5mm from original is time for replacement. But my sense is you’d feel it in performance long before the max wear took place.

Personally I would replace it. I don’t like riding around wondering about the status of periodic routine maintenance that may or may not have been done.
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BuddyRaton
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dan v. wrote:
When I first got into scooters and their care a few tools were indispensable.
Impact wrench to remove the nuts, and a torque wrench to install the nuts.


A breaker bar will do just as well as an impact gun (yes I have both) and doesn't need any power.

A torque wrench is a must. DO NOT use a torque wrench to break the bolt loose, the nut and bolt will be fine but throw the torque wrench away. It is a torque measuring tool, not a wrench to be abused and beat on or used for anything else.

Keep us updated!

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eggsalad
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DIY tool is perfectly functional, assuming you have woodworking tools and skills. Alternately, you could actually buy the proper tool, called "adjustable pin wrench" for under $15. Here's one on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HFFR9RR/?coliid=I2BBHXQ8AIA9MM&colid=151CSCS4AVC8L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to squeeze the clutch pulleys together and force the belt down in, or you will tighten your variator on to the belt and not the boss. 2 miles from home, your variator will implode.
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ucandoit
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do just basic mechanical work on the scooter and I made the wood tool and was very happy with it. I wanted to be able to use a torque wrench when tightening the nuts back on to get the torque right. I don't trust an impact wrench for that. Also, I have no other use for an impact wrench and don't want to buy one.
The tool is easy to make if you take your time and measure things out. Once made, you'll have it for any future occasions when needing to remove the variator and clutch nuts.
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scootERIK wrote:
I have never snapped a belt and I have had belts with over 15,000 miles on them*. Honestly I don't even think of changing them until 12,000 miles. BUT that is only for the Bando brand belts(watch out for fakes if you buy off of ebay.) I had a Gates belt fail after less than 3,000 miles, it didn't snap but there was a chunk torn loose.

Wait til you do break a belt and have the CVT lock up - then spend about half a day untangling a mess of ratted fibers from the clutch and variator. It gives a rider a different perspective on when a belt should be changed.
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belt and sliders shipped out from Scooterworks yesterday and should get here by Friday. Glad I paid for priority shipping.

If the method in the video works, I'm going to try to do that to at least swap the belt out so that I don't have to worry about it anymore. I can work on rollers later after I spend some time trying to obtain tools. The main worry for me with the variator nut is that I've seen posts from people who didn't put it on tight enough and it fell off while riding or they put it on too tight and it stripped the threads. Generally what I do is I tighten these things by hand to the point where I can't pull any more, give it a few tugs for good measure and then just check it once in a while.

Here is a video I shot while look around the inside of the CVT. I didn't take the belt out though. I try not to touch anything unless it's time to work on it because I don't want to break anything.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/atsmtyqrnwwhv47/IMG_6284.MOV?dl=0

Anyone know what the nut size is for the variator? I read its something like 15mm or 17mm. I should have measured it while I had everything taken apart.
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
Generally what I do is I tighten these things by hand to the point where I can't pull any more, give it a few tugs for good measure and then just check it once in a while.
This might be a good idea for a spark plug or oil drain bolt, but it is not so good for your variator. You need to be sure it is torqued to the boss, not the belt, and torque to setting. I add a dab of blue loc-tite for good measure. Variator nut is 17mm. I very rarely advocate rolling it into a shop, but this might be the way to go.
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dan v.
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
The main worry for me with the variator nut is that I've seen posts from people who didn't put it on tight enough and it fell off while riding or they put it on too tight and it stripped the threads.


Facepalm That's why a torque wrench has been suggested. Follow DeeDee's advice too!
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PNWbuddy
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Replace belt with no impact wrench? Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
Usually I take my CVT in yearly to get inspected, but I'm thinking of doing it myself if I can due to the pandemic.

Main problem is that I lack tools. Is it true you don't need an impact wrench and does this trick work for the buddy?

Basically, the guy in the video squeezes the clutch plates together to create space to pull the belt to the clutch's center. That makes the belt loose enough at the other end to slip it over the variator. To put the belt back, he reverses the steps. Anyone ever do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XakWj8YM_P4


I have tried that method on a couple scooters including my Buddy 125 and it didn't work on either scooter. There wasn't enough space between the variator and the transmission case to squeeze the belt through. So it might work for some scooters but it didn't work for me.

My scooter had over 11.000 miles on it when I changed the belt. The old belt measured the same as new belt specs and had no visible damage. I only changed it because I already had a new belt. I kept the old one for a spare.
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BuddyRaton
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing at all wrong with homemade holders and tools, I love them!

However If you don't have the proper tools, including hand made ones you really can't work on it properly.

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ucandoit
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel the torque wrench is for sure important on both the variator nut and the clutch nut. You can do that. You'll get the knack of removing the belt and reinstalling it. It takes a bit of time to figure out because it is new to you, but it is doable and there are helpful threads and videos. Keep reading threads on what mistakes not to make, tips, etc. Your manual will list the torque for both of those nuts. To check out the rollers is not hard. Again, it's important to know the place for each part, how it orients, and in what order things go back together. This applies to all mechanics on anything. Take photos at each step if you can.
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tenders wrote:
On the belt you’re measuring belt width, which wears down over time after being squeezed and pulled between the two sets of pulleys for thousands of miles. And looking for signs of cracking, errant threads, etc. I don’t know the specs for the Buddy yet since I haven’t had to do this myself but on most scoots wear beyond 1-1.5mm from original is time for replacement.


I measured the width at it is at 19.25mm from the original 20mm. I was able to find a torque wrench and will torque the variator nut to 35lbs/ft which is within the range in the service manual (4 kg/m to 5.5 kg/m). I also found a breaker bar and ordered a variator tool to hold it in place while I unscrew.
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing a belt change on a Burgman today. I hate buyng a tool that only gets used every 14,000 miles. Same principle, a little different take. I'm holding the Burgman variator with3 L brackets and misc. hardware I had laying around.
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the method in the video didn't work. The belt came today and I tried to swap it out using this method and I couldn't fit it over the variatior so I'm going to have to remove the variatior completely.

The belt that came looks almost identical to the belt in there. In fact, I'd say the belt in the CVT has nearly no wear after 8k mi, but I'm going to swap it out now that I've come this far. I hate buying tools but, at this point, buying tools is cheaper than paying the mechanic labour costs.

One weird thing is that the belt is supposed to be 20mm wide but the new one is less than that. More like 19.7mm. That would mean that my currently belt only lost 0.4mm and not 0.75mm like I reported earlier.

The variator and clutch nuts are also 19mm, not 17mm. My CVT was entirely gutted and all parts replaced back in 2017 so maybe they used different parts.

My only concern is whether or not I will be strong enough to remove the variator nut with the breaker bar. I hope it's not too difficult.[/list]
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeeDee wrote:
I'm doing a belt change on a Burgman today. I hate buyng a tool that only gets used every 14,000 miles. Same principle, a little different take. I'm holding the Burgman variator with3 L brackets and misc. hardware I had laying around.


DeeDee, I read you aren't supposed to hold the fins like that because they could break off. Thankfully, mine has two holes so I'm going to try to use the variator tool.
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full contact on 3 fins. No risk of breaking anything. Problems come up when you try wedging a screwdriver into one fin and it's only making contact at one point.
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Variator tool came today but it does not fit in the holes. The pins are too large. I thought it was one standard size but I guess not.
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eggsalad
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
Variator tool came today but it does not fit in the holes. The pins are too large. I thought it was one standard size but I guess not.


Interesting. Did you order the one I linked from Amazon?

The pins on that one are .260" in diameter. The 1/4"-20 bolts used in the DIY tool are .250". I guess ten thousandths of an inch are enough to make the difference. Unless those pins are super-hardened steel, I would think you could knock off ten thou with some sandpaper.
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm done!

The pins on the variator tool were removeable. I went to the hardware store and got some smaller long screws and bolted them into where the pins went.

As soon as that was done and on the variator, the nut came off easily with a breaker bar. I was surprised how easy it came off. Everything else came off super easy. I didn't even have to shake it. The Bando belt was in very good condition after 8k mi. I'll just keep it as a backup. Two rollers had flat spots and one would no longer roll. I replaced with sliders.

The big problem was putting the new belt on. I did not have the strength to push the clutch plates together and push the belt in. Thankfully, my sister agreed to help me. The two of us pulling on the plates together allowed me to put the belt in all the way down so there would be slack on the variator side.

I tightened the variator using the torque wrench set at 35lbs per ft or 4.8kg per m (manual says to do 4.0 - 5.5 kg per m so I put it in the middle). The screws I put on the variator tool didn't hold and bent right as I torqued the nut - clicked it twice.

I pulled the belt around the variator a bit to loosen it on the clutch side and then ran the engine to test it. Then I put the cover back on.

I rode it around the neighbourhood and it seems okay. Acceleration is fast and smooth. I'll take it on some slow roads tomorrow to break the belt in a bit more.

Except for getting the belt back on, I would say this is pretty easy. Getting the tools is the pain though but, once you have those, it's amazingly fast. I took the CVT apart and replaced everything in like 20 minutes.

Thanks everyone for the help.
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done! Sounds like you are good to go. Good feeling isn't it?
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BayStateScooterist
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsalad wrote:
The DIY tool is perfectly functional, assuming you have woodworking tools and skills. Alternately, you could actually buy the proper tool, called "adjustable pin wrench" for under $15. Here's one on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HFFR9RR/?coliid=I2BBHXQ8AIA9MM&colid=151CSCS4AVC8L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Just bought this tool for future use! Thanks. Wink
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BuddyRaton
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job!

One of the best things is that now you KNOW that you can work on your scooter! None of us was born knowing this stuff. We all had to learn. Next belt will take less than half the time this one did!


For some of us wrenching is almost as much fun as riding them!

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BayStateScooterist
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
Okay, I'm done!

The pins on the variator tool were removeable. I went to the hardware store and got some smaller long screws and bolted them into where the pins went.

As soon as that was done and on the variator, the nut came off easily with a breaker bar. I was surprised how easy it came off. Everything else came off super easy. I didn't even have to shake it. The Bando belt was in very good condition after 8k mi. I'll just keep it as a backup. Two rollers had flat spots and one would no longer roll. I replaced with sliders.

The big problem was putting the new belt on. I did not have the strength to push the clutch plates together and push the belt in. Thankfully, my sister agreed to help me. The two of us pulling on the plates together allowed me to put the belt in all the way down so there would be slack on the variator side.

I tightened the variator using the torque wrench set at 35lbs per ft or 4.8kg per m (manual says to do 4.0 - 5.5 kg per m so I put it in the middle). The screws I put on the variator tool didn't hold and bent right as I torqued the nut - clicked it twice.

I pulled the belt around the variator a bit to loosen it on the clutch side and then ran the engine to test it. Then I put the cover back on.

I rode it around the neighbourhood and it seems okay. Acceleration is fast and smooth. I'll take it on some slow roads tomorrow to break the belt in a bit more.

Except for getting the belt back on, I would say this is pretty easy. Getting the tools is the pain though but, once you have those, it's amazingly fast. I took the CVT apart and replaced everything in like 20 minutes.

Thanks everyone for the help.


Great job! My first time will be later this year. I should check my 150 since it's 11 years old and probably never have been done. It currently has 3350 miles on it. I prefer to DIY. Cool
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mukaiboston
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have any advice for getting the belt around the clutch? I couldn't believe it took me and my sister pulling on it. I just couldn't have both hands pulling the clutch and fit the belt in with my fingers.

Looks so easy in youtube vids.
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DeeDee
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull the clutch and put it on a work bench. Use irwin clamps to help you open the pullies. Work the belt in as far down as you can go. Now put the variator, clutch and belt back on the bike.
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mukaiboston
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Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great. I pushed the belt as far down in the clutch as I could so there would be plenty of slack on the variator side. I've read that if you don't do this, you can tighten the variator onto the belt instead. Then I moved the belt around a few rotations to get the slack back on the clutch side and make sure everything moved right.
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Paul Meyer
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Joined: 06 Jun 2019
Posts: 8
Location: Roseburg Oregon
Buddy 150

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I built and used DeeDee’s tool. It was simple, cheap and worked great.
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Paul Meyer
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Joined: 06 Jun 2019
Posts: 8
Location: Roseburg Oregon
Buddy 150

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I built and used DeeDee’s tool. It was simple, cheap and worked great.
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