One day back and already problems...

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:47 pm

So my Buddy has been in the garage since October. I pulled it out the other day for my first ride in almost 5 months. It fired right up and rode like a champ. I couldn't have been happier. A couple hours after parking the scooter I noticed some oil dripping down the rear wheel and accumulating in a puddle on the rim. (I had also noticed this when I bought the scoot too but it was barely visible then and I just attributed it to normal dirty-ness).
Since I am due for my 2nd oil change (1500 miles) I called the local dealer to schedule an appointment. I mentioned the leak to the tech and he got really concerned. He told me not to ride it one more mile and that it was a very serious problem. He said to bring it in right away and let them diagnose the problem (tear apart the transmission and find where the leak is originating from). He said it would be at least $150 to diagnose and then whatever parts/labor is needed to repair it. This is a definite bummer since I don't have that kind of money.
You may recall last June when I wrecked my buddy into the back of my truck while loading it by myself. That put buddy out of commission for almost 3 weeks during prime riding season. Now here I am at the beginning of the next season and already problems (expensive problems) have arisen.
I hate to say it... but I am considering losing the bud. I was expecting nothing but pure 90 mpg bliss when I bought it and I have had to make too many trips to the repair shop (which is 45 minutes away in a car btw) for this to be worth it.

justscooten · Post by **justscooten** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:57 pm

at least your dealer isnt 2 hours away like mine . sorry to here about the probs. is the gear oil or motor oil?
might need new gasket kit.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:09 pm

Not sure which oil it is.. how do I decipher between the two?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:45 pm

That is not good, you do not need to pay from what I understand. If the transmission has too much oil it will drain out a small hole on the inside by the wheel. I had the same problem, once I drained and filled with the proper amount it stopped leaking. I hope they didn't tear it apart yet cause they should try that

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:54 pm

See that's what I thought at first, but it has been 1000 miles since my oil change. I don't think it should still be leaking out from being over-filled. When did yours stop leaking?

nissanman · Post by **nissanman** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:11 am

Gear oil is thicker and has a stronger odor than standard motor oil.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 am

Mine didn't stop till I changed it. If they filled it way to full it will leak for a long time

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:41 am

Hmm... I wonder how I could figure out if it is leaking because of an over-fill. Maybe I should just mention these things to the service guy when I take it... but he seemed really adamant about "tearin 'er apart." I hope it is something easy and inexpensive because I can't afford the things he was talking about.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:54 am

Here are some pictures of the leak. Hopefully someone can tell me if it looks like something very serious or an easy fix.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:19 am

That's gear oil. I can't tell where it's coming from so it's hard to say if you can fix it. It could be from the vent of the gearbox (overfilled) or from the rear hub seal. If it's overfilled you can just drain the gearbox oil and refill it with the proper amount (somewhere between 90 and 110 mL). Did you happen to park it using the sidestand for the last 5 months? That can push the seal out of round and cause a leak as well. Sidestands are just for short term sitting. I think your mechanic was thinking that this is motor oil leaking and if you did drive it with the motor oil dry then it would be serious. You can't go a quart low and be OK like in a car. It's got less than a quart of crank case oil in it! But it's still not good to drive without gearbox oil. It looks like it's got some scraping on the cases on the bottom. Did you happen to hit it on something. If the cases are damaged from that it could be bad news as well. If it's just in need of a new rear hub seal then you should be under 30.00 in parts and an hour labor.

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:26 am

your buddy isn't under warranty anymore?

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:31 am

I have had it parked with the center stand for the duration of it's winter stay in the garage.
Those scratches are much more minor than they look in the picture. It did fall over in the back of my truck last summer but that is the only hit it has ever taken.

It looks like the oil may be coming out of this bolt (drain plug?)

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:32 am

No warranty I bought it used, not to mention it is older than 2 years anyway.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:06 am

Looks like it could be the vent on the gearcase. If you want I can give you instructions on changing the oil if you want to try and save money.

This is the area of the vent

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:07 am

Also if you drain the oil, measure it and see if it's to much mine was WAY to full. Shouldn't be over 110ml, if it is you know it was to full cause there is also some on your wheel

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:13 am

That would be awesome. So this is the gear oil we are talking about correct? Would they have changed the gear and motor oil when I took it in for the 500 mile service?

So have we come to a positive consensus that it is NOT motor oil. It is oil from the gearbox?

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:36 am

trevo_man wrote:That would be awesome. So this is the gear oil we are talking about correct? Would they have changed the gear and motor oil when I took it in for the 500 mile service?

So have we come to a positive consensus that it is NOT motor oil. It is oil from the gearbox?

Correct. That would be a long way for crank case oil to migrate to get to that area. Plus it's more the color of gear oil. If you get some on your hand and smell it, it will likely stink in a bad way. And if you put some motor oil on your finger, it will just smell like motor. If you compare them you'll know what I mean. They may have done this change at the 500 mile service but I don't know. It does appear that it's coming from that rear bolt but it can sometimes be deceiving and could be dripping from somewhere else. Change the oil, keep an eye on how much comes out and measure it. It doesn't really matter because once you have it all drained you'll be able to remedy it so if it's just over filled you indirectly solve the problem by doing the investigation (or maybe it's the other way around). clean the area after all the oil stops coming out and then make sure all the drain plug(s) are tight. then refill with the right amount and test it out. If it leaks again then it could be coming from somewhere else.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:55 am

I think I will try changing the gear oil tomorrow (put the right amount in) and see if it continues to leak. If it does is it likely a gasket that needs replacing?

Thanks for all your help by the way, this is the best/nicest/most helpful forum imaginable.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:01 am

trevo_man wrote:That would be awesome. So this is the gear oil we are talking about correct? Would they have changed the gear and motor oil when I took it in for the 500 mile service?

So have we come to a positive consensus that it is NOT motor oil. It is oil from the gearbox?

It's definitely gear oil and yes they should have changed it (that's why mine was overfilled)

Start by removing the fill cap (white plug on the rear of the gear case) then remove the drain plug (lowest bolt on the gear case) drain the oil into a clean cup or bowl, then poor that into your measuring cup (I used the shot glass sized one from the wal-mart cooking section) if it is over 110ml then you may have found your problem. Filling the oil can be tricky due to the awkward angle of the fill hole, I used 3/8in tubing and slid it on the gear oil cap to make a ghetto funnel. Make sure you put no more than 110ml of new oil in. I used 100. Replace cap, clean the gear case and go for a ride. If it still leaks then i was of no help

I use Mobil-1 75w-90 full synthetic in the gear case
Make sure you have a good measuring devise

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:24 am

Awesome. I'll do it tomorrow. I will be quite surprised if it really is due to an overfill as it has been 1000 miles since it would have been changed. I would think that any excess would have drained by then. Keep your fingers crossed for me though. Thanks for your help!
I'll keep you updated. I feel like we are in this together now ha ha

nissanman · Post by **nissanman** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:33 pm

It may be overfilled, but be careful when putting the drainplug back in. You don't want to over-tighten it. My Rattler seeped from the drainplug after the gearoil was changed (I just had to put a little ammount of liquid threadseal on the plug before re-installation). I haven't had any issues with it since.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:23 pm

nissanman wrote:It may be overfilled, but be careful when putting the drainplug back in. You don't want to over-tighten it. My Rattler seeped from the drainplug after the gearoil was changed (I just had to put a little ammount of liquid threadseal on the plug before re-installation). I haven't had any issues with it since.

also a good idea just to eliminate an option

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:59 pm

this is directed at no one in particular, but when we buy a used car, its suggested we take it to a mechanic to look for any 'surprise' problems that may arise as soon as we hand over our hard-earned cash. so, i think we should be suggesting the same thing to used scooter buyers, especially with the buddy not having a transferable warranty. it could cost $100 for a diagnostic, but it seems a small price given how long they can be out of commission and how costly even what appears to be the smallest of problems can be. better to know ahead of time and make an informed decision on just how good that sweet deal you're contemplating really is.

dwnthehatch · Post by **dwnthehatch** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:21 pm

Make sure you replace the crush washer on the drain plug. It may be the cause of you problem.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:27 pm

Where is the crush washer? Where can I get a replacement one?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:50 pm

It is just a brass washer on the drain plug itself. Dealer stocks them

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:02 pm

Dang. I was hoping to avoid the 45 minute drive to the dealer. Can I get it at an Autozone? Is it absolutely Imperative that I replace the crush washer?

I thought it would be a long time before I had to go back since I bought a bunch of filters last time I was there.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:56 pm

trevo_man wrote:Dang. I was hoping to avoid the 45 minute drive to the dealer. Can I get it at an Autozone? Is it absolutely Imperative that I replace the crush washer?

I thought it would be a long time before I had to go back since I bought a bunch of filters last time I was there.

Crush washers are crush washers. Typically, OEM crush washers are of poorer quality than good aftermarket hardware. Remove the bolt and take the old washer with you to your closest moto shop and ask them to match the size. If there's no existing crush washer, you may have found the actual problem.

Note: I haven't changed the gear oil myself and didn't know there was a crush washer on that plug, I'm just going by what was said above and standard motorcycle practice.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:09 pm

Thanks! Is there one of these washers on the motor oil drain plug as well?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:22 pm

trevo_man wrote:Thanks! Is there one of these washers on the motor oil drain plug as well?

The washer can probably be found at an auto parts store and no the motor oil plug does not

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:14 pm

Alright it is done. I changed the motor oil, filter, and gear oil. Here are my findings:

When I drained the gear oil I measured it. Get this... 200ml!!!! And that is after it has been leaking out for months! Who knows how much they put in there. It also looked like the dealer never changed it at all because as you can see in the picture it has a ton of metal in it. I hope this didn't cause any damage as I am up to 1200 miles now. I did not replace the crush washer because it looked perfectly fine. I did put some thread seal on the plug.

I filled it with 100 ml of Mobil 1 75w-90 Synthetic Gear Lubricant.

When I drained the motor oil I only got 550 ml (this is including everything that drained out of the filter as well). This certainly worries me. I have not seen ANY motor oil leak so I don't know where it went, or if my dealer even put the right amount in.

I filled it with 875 ml of Rotella T 5w-40 Synthetic Motor Oil and put a new filter on.

After riding around for a couple miles I have not seen any more gear oil appearing on my rear wheel. Hopefully it was all just "weepage" from there being 200 ml inside.

How did I do for my first buddy oil change? Did I use the right Oil(s)? Should I be worried about the 550 ml of motor oil coming out? Thanks again everyone!

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:43 pm

I bet they never put the right amount in, also your top mph should have improved vastly

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:45 pm

There will be metal in the second oil change as well so I wouldn't worry. Everything looks good, Enjoy the Buddy!!!

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:51 pm

Thanks! Looks like I'll be doing the oil changes myself from now on, seeing as the dealer put 90 ml too much gear oil and 300 ml to little motor oil in. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the leak doesn't come back.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:21 am

I think you will be ok

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:46 am

Trevo,
Good you are back in business.

A couple things I suggest:
- Let the owner of the dealer know about your troubles, in a nice way. I would not ask for any money, or anything else. Just let them know so they are aware that they need to pay attention to things a bit more. For all you know, maybe a new technician did your service and he has screwed up a buch of other scoots out there. I would think the owner would appreciate the feedback if he is a good dealer as he will want all the repeat business he can get.
- Make sure you have tightened the filter to the correct torque value. You can search for some threads here about filters that came off because they loosened up after an oil change. No filter, out goes the oil = new engine. If you torqued right, you should be fine.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:04 am

I will be calling them tomorrow to cancel my appointment, at which point I will let them know about my findings.

I just went out and checked the filter since you said that. I tightened it a little bit more. I unfortunately do not have a torque wrench and don't have any way to figure out how tight it is. I feel like it is a little tighter than the one I took off so hopefully it will be alright.

Thanks for the tips!

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:11 am

trevo_man wrote:I will be calling them tomorrow to cancel my appointment, at which point I will let them know about my findings.

I just went out and checked the filter since you said that. I tightened it a little bit more. I unfortunately do not have a torque wrench and don't have any way to figure out how tight it is. I feel like it is a little tighter than the one I took off so hopefully it will be alright.

Thanks for the tips!

Quarter turn after the gasket touches the housing

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:17 am

Hmm I think I am about a half a turn after touching the housing. Ya think I'm ok?

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:30 am

Trevo,

Not sure what it is. I think POC mentioned a full rotation.
I can't remember all the posts, but you can start here:
viewtopic.php?t=2895&highlight=oil+filter

and here:
viewtopic.php?t=3135&highlight=oil+filter

I think there are more, but those are the ones I remember.
Not trying to scare you, but since you mentioned it was your first oil change, better safe than sorry.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:48 am

Sounds good I'll go give 'er another tweak. Sounds like there have been a lot of people who killed there buddys by not tightening the filter enough. Thanks for the heads up!

shark · Post by **shark** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:52 am

Im glad you checked the amount of gear lube. Saved you some cash on a unneeded repair.
Along with my Buddy i have a 257cc Chinese Scoot. The manual is written in Chinglish. It says to fill the gearlube till it runs out the fill hole. This is so wrong. When you go to the capcity chart it says 250ml. If you filled it till full it would have 500+ml.

what a mess that would make

I do a full turn on my filters. Make sure its tight. Check it after a run and cooldown cycle.

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:14 am

Seriously. I spent about thirty bucks in supplies and I've got the tools & oil for about 5 more changes. The dealer wanted to charge me $150 to diagnose and go from there. If I didn't have such great co-forumers to walk me through it I would be much more broke than I am.

I am going to check the filter every couple days for now just to make sure I got it tight enough. From what it sounds like in earlier threads it should be ridiculously tight.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:17 am

Careful not to go too tight as you can crack the gasket leading to rapid oil loss

and or warp the threads on the housing. Mine were put on by hand and have never come off

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:45 am

True. So pretty tight, but not too tight. I'm at hand tight plus about half a turn. I don't think it was tight enough to cause any damage but I don't think it is loose enough to come off. I'll continuously check it. Now I just need the weather to cooperate. It was snowing this morning!!!

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:57 am

trevo_man wrote:True. So pretty tight, but not too tight. I'm at hand tight plus about half a turn. I don't think it was tight enough to cause any damage but I don't think it is loose enough to come off. I'll continuously check it. Now I just need the weather to cooperate. It was snowing this morning!!!

Here too, where in utah are you?

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:02 am

I'm in Herriman. About 40 minutes Southwest of Salt Lake. Yea I woke up this morning to a layer of snow. Luckily it melted by about noon so I could ride for a bit but it was still a little chilly.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:12 am

trevo_man wrote:I'm in Herriman. About 40 minutes Southwest of Salt Lake. Yea I woke up this morning to a layer of snow. Luckily it melted by about noon so I could ride for a bit but it was still a little chilly.

I rode about a block to find out I lost an o ring on the intake "manifold" so now I have to wait a week till my o ring gets here

trevo_man · Post by **trevo_man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:15 am

How did you figure that out? What happened?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:23 am

trevo_man wrote:How did you figure that out? What happened?

I took it off when I re jetted my carb and knew the o ring was flimsy, turned out It got loose and cut in half. I was expecting it