Let's have the helmet discussion here

[Hypermotarded]

So er...we really did ninja that other post. It started as a new owner excited to get his buddy and turned into a mud slinging fest regarding helmet laws. Now that is an important topic and one that divides the riding community and we should talk about it.

But come on.

That dude just bought his buddy. Give him some cudos and let's have the helmet fight here.

I'll start us off. THERE SHOULD BE HELMET LAWS. Like it or not, every government is socialist at its core. We all chip in to pay for roads, schools, emergency services, political structure, etc. We share responsibility and we share cost. It is therefore reasonable for me to ask you to wear a helmet. If you are going to spatter your face across a street that's your business. Until you ask the cops I helped pay for to come and scoop you up. Until you drive up the cost of ambulance response and medical care for the rest of us because you keep dying before you pay your huge medical bills that you never would have generated if you'd just worn your damn helmet.

Am I right? Am I an ass for saying so? Please respond here and we can use the other thread for saying gratz to our new scooting friend.

[vitaminC]

Um, this is a lot like trolling, eh?

This is sort of like politics, in that all the posts in the world will not result in anyone changing their mind about the topic at hand.

Play nice.

[ericalm]

This is sort of like politics, in that all the posts in the world will not result in anyone changing their mind about the topic at hand.

Yeah. This issue is too closely tied with people's views on civil liberty and the role of government. It will probably just piss a lot of people off and color their opinions of other forum members, particularly since it's related to a number of very sensitive hot button issues (guns, abortion, Mac vs. Windows) that are totally unrelated to our shared love of scootering.

I tried to stimulate a discussion on the use of fallacious logic to justify risky behavior in a thread on ModernVespa, but no one seemed too interested in going there either.

The only reason I chimed in on the "hijacked" thread is that people can find these posts through searches and I feel we have some obligation as a community to dispute information that's blatantly untrue or misleading.

[AxeYrCat]

Personally, I wear a helmet, and I think they're pretty darned important.

But I also believe in freedom to choose...


Frankly, the cops are going to roll up on the scene whether someone gets killed riding or just takes a hit.

I don't, however, think that society should have to pay for anyone else's injuries -- that's where the need for insurance comes in.

But that gets us into the discussion of what the responsibilities of government, insurance companies, and big medicine... And that's bigger than I want to get.



Frankly, I think it's stupid to force people to be safe. Everyone should be allowed to decide what risks they do and do not want to take...

Otherwise, there ain't a damned thing natural selection is going to do for us.

[ericalm]

Otherwise, there ain't a damned thing natural selection is going to do for us.

Oh, yeah! I forgot Darwinism/evolution in my hot button issues!

[Melody]

In life I tend to steer away from making serious "life altering" descisions without being properly informed and educated. I'm one of those people who strives to find a delicate balance between making "rash" descisions and dechipering the PROS and CONS for each situation.

I find that humans tend to make descisions based on which item (among a slew of choices) will benefit them the most. At least I do.

I ask only one question about the tired subject of "to wear" or "not to wear" helmets...

What is the benefit of NOT wearing a helmet?

[vitaminC]

What is the benefit of NOT wearing a helmet?

See, the whole point is not just about whether or not wearing a helmet is better or not, but if you can be forced to do it. This argument goes way beyond safety!

Many folks will hate to do it simply because it's a law, even if they would be doing it anyway- i.e., the classic "freedom" argument.

Not to mention, many claim to enjoy their two-wheeled experience more when they are lidless.

[GatsbyGirl]

Not to mention, many claim to enjoy their two-wheeled experience more when they are lidless.

Ah, the old "if it feels so good it can't possibly be bad" argument. I haven't heard that one since high school. Didn't fall for it then either.

[Melody]

Benefit/reasoning/enjoyment factor. Whatever word you choose to insert.

I am assuming that your answer is "because I can/shouldbeableto".

I get it. I was just wondering if there was an argument beyond that.

[setbuilder]

This was what I was responding to-



As for lids...there is no lid law in Arizona and to honest, I'd say 65% of the the riders don't wear them. They didn't have one in Colorado either when I lived there and most folks didn't wear them. You consider the possibilities and if you are willing to live (or not) with the consequences of a mishap, then the choice to wear one or not is at least there... A little less governmental meddling is always welcome. Now, I wear a helmet, but I don't feel it's somebody else's place to tell me I HAVE to.



This was my response-



Well said Keys! Illinois does not have a helmet law either. I have had my buddy 50 for a little over a month and I do not wear a helmet. I am however considering a full face one for when it gets colder. I respect your decision to wear one and still be able to stand up for the right to choose! Thank you for being a rational voice!!


Live safe, eat right, die anyway!



If you want to wear a helmet do so, but leave my rights alone!! My other half wiped out last weekend and totalled the Buddy. She is fine, REALLY!! A few bruises and scrapes and NO HELMET!! Of course she is lucky and I would never dispute that, but what I have a problem with is the mentality of people like Hypermotarded, who believe that there sould be a mandatory helmet usage law--

I'll start us off. THERE SHOULD BE HELMET LAWS. Like it or not, every government is socialist at its core. We all chip in to pay for roads, schools, emergency services, political structure, etc. We share responsibility and we share cost. It is therefore reasonable for me to ask you to wear a helmet. If you are going to spatter your face across a street that's your business. Until you ask the cops I helped pay for to come and scoop you up. Until you drive up the cost of ambulance response and medical care for the rest of us because you keep dying before you pay your huge medical bills that you never would have generated if you'd just worn your damn helmet.


This state requires vehicle insurance and I also have heath insurance that I pay for out of my own pocket because I am a freelancer. If you think that insurance companies must raise rates to comensate for the handfull of helmetless rider accidents, you are a fool. Insurance companies are gambling against the odds at all times and as soon as they have to pay out, they are the victim. I have not made a claim in 17 years and have paid insurance on 2-4 vehicles at all times. Now I have made a claim for a totalled $1899 buddy and I am sure they will raise my rates! Who's the victim?


seatbelts make OTHER people on the road safer, not just you.


This is from scarabmonkey. Just what in the hell does this mean??? Do you believe that without seatbelt laws there would be bodies flying all around taking people out?

I do wear a seatbelt in my car. Not because it is the law, but it makes me feel safer. I do drive like hell though! I feel that a helmet make me feel just a little more "invincible" and makes me ride a little more aggresively.
Given that, I choose to ride without a helmet. I also like the way it feels to just be out in the open and hearing traffic at full volume and interacting with people unhindered.


Why do people feel the need to force their opinions on others in the form of legislation? Live and let live. This country was founded on that principle and everyone seems to have forgotten that. I will continue to ride with or without a helmet, as I see fit, until this country falls into a theocracy and we have to wear our helmets on 3wheeled bicycles to catholic church every Sunday!


Also- I do not appreciate the threat of being banned for voicing my opinion, JESS.

[jess]

Oh good. I've had an entire afternoon of putting out one fire after another, trying to calm down a group of people that are actually adults and should know better than to bicker and fight, and I come home to... this. My favorite topic in the whole world.

Not.

Okay, so seeing as how I'm already at the end of my rope today, I'll keep this short and simple:

All further discussion of helmet laws is hereby off-limits on this forum. Period.

You can talk about what kinds of helmets fit what kinds of heads. You can talk about Bluetooth helmets, or designer helmets, or even square helmets, for frak's sake. But helmet laws are a subject where everyone has their strong opinions and nobody ever changes sides, except when it's too late. All that will be accomplished is to piss each other off and make this an unfriendly place.

Don't want to wear a helmet? Be my guest. The gene pool will undoubtedly be better off without you.

Also- I do not appreciate the threat of being banned for voicing my opinion, JESS.

First, you're in my forum, so I don't really care whether you "appreciate it" or not. I will ban you as soon as look at you, so if you want to continue to be a member here, back the frak off.

Second, you were spreading false information about the "dangers" of wearing helmets, which I consider a near criminal offense. This was not a matter of you voicing your opinion -- this was about you maliciously spreading bullshit that has no basis in science or medicine and to the detriment of anyone foolish enough to believe you. You're welcome to go without a helmet. I don't care. When you start trying to convince other people not to wear a helmet, you've crossed a very serious line with me, and I will not tolerate it in my forum.

My house, my rules. If you don't like it, get the frak out. It's unlikely anyone will miss you.

[big calm]

Jess, how's it going.....I are fine..and you?

[davev]

My house, my rules. If you don't like it, get the frak out. It's unlikely anyone will miss you.

Wow. I've been lurking here for a while, reading up on the Buddy cause I
was thinking of getting one, which for now is hold til next summer.

This thread and the Hijacked thread doesn't really show our Mod (Jess)
in a very good good light.

How can you have a forum to discuss issues' dealing with scooters, then
when someone doesn't agree with you, ban them?

It's your house, but I think with these kinds of posts, you might end up
home alone.

So, this was my 1st post, probably my last as I'm sure I'll be banned
for voicing an opinion that doesn't fit in with Jess'.

Last note: I've been riding motorcycles for 28 years, the only time I've
worn a helmet was when I was in a state that required it. I know people
that have been is crashes without helmets, that didn't fair to well, and
the same is true the other way, they had helmets on, and still got hurt.
Just cause you've got the brain buckets on, don't think your invincible.
You're on a 50 inch wheelbase going up to 60 MPH. Now that's scary.

So when you jump on the scooter, wear what you need to wear to make
you feel happy. Don't look down on others that have made a different
choice. (like buying a vino or Kymco)

I think if I need to wear one on the bike, people in convertibles should
have to wear them also.

Later.

dave.

[jess]

So, this was my 1st post, probably my last as I'm sure I'll be banned
for voicing an opinion that doesn't fit in with Jess'.

That would be incorrect. I've banned, in my year of running this forum and Modern Vespa, exactly three people. Two, in fact, asked to be removed. I do not ban people I simply disagree with, and I do not remove posts I disagree with. Anyone who knows me from Modern Vespa knows that much about me.

I do have a self-appointed job, though, and that is to keep the peace. As helmet laws are an extremely polarized discussion, I have decided (today, in fact) that the subject is off limits in order to keep things civil. It doesn't accomplish anything to argue about whether they're right or just or needed or a burden to society -- it just pisses everyone off. This is, in my mind, just like the topic of politics, or religion, or abortion, or the death penalty -- people believe what they want to believe, and they rarely, if ever, change sides.

You can believe what you want to believe about me. The people who have watched me build a community over the last year know the truth. That's enough for me.

[jess]

Jess, how's it going.....I are fine..and you?

I've been better. I like your avatar, though.

[ericalm]

This thread and the Hijacked thread doesn't really show our Mod (Jess) in a very good good light.

How can you have a forum to discuss issues' dealing with scooters, then
when someone doesn't agree with you, ban them?

It's your house, but I think with these kinds of posts, you might end up
home alone.

So, this was my 1st post, probably my last as I'm sure I'll be banned
for voicing an opinion that doesn't fit in with Jess'.

Sigh. There is plenty of debate, dissent and room for differing opinions on a range of topics in these forums. In my experience here and on ModernVespa Jess has been quite tolerant, rarely interfering with the natural course of the threads.

But in order for us to maintain the forum and keep it from descending into the kind of unfriendly, flame-war atmosphere that keeps many of us away from other forums, we have to abide by certain rules. These rules are clearly stated in the Posting Guidelines, as are the consequences for violating them. They stipulate, and I'm paraphrasing here, that the discussion should be kept to scooters and related topics and that discussions of politics and religion and not allowed for the very reasons we see here. These topics are not productive, informative or entertaining. There are surely more appropriate places for hopping on your soapbox and "sharing" these types of opinions.

Coming into the forum and repeatedly violating these guidelines, then whining about it when the rules are enforced is simply disrespectful to those who have agreed to these stipulations and strive to adhere to them for the benefit of the forum.

It's got nothing to do with banishing those who disagree. These rules are applied to everyone without discrimination and regardless of what religious/political belief they're espousing.

[jess]

As I've only tonight decided to ban the topic of helmet laws, I've just added it explicitly to the Posting Guidelines for future users.

[Keys]

Well, of COURSE there should be helmet laws! And by the same extension of logic, there should also be laws against drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes or eating too much salt or fat. There should be laws against obesity and there should be laws against having pets, since they hurt thousands of people every year. There should also be...well, you get the idea... Regardless of the socialist ideals of any government, it is up to the citizens to retain or obtain the freedoms they wish. Lord knows how much of our tax monies go to care for the obese, the cancer-stricken, the alcoholic, etc. Probably WAY more than go to pay for care of the non-helmet wearing, injured motorcyclist or scooterist. The argument doesn't hold water.

--Keys