Think I paid way too much!!

City Kitty · Post by **City Kitty** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:15 pm

Hi Everyone,
I'm a new scooter owner and did as much research as I could about what I was buying. I ended up getting a 2007 125 model as it was available and I liked the color. The dealership wouldn't budge on the price at all and there are not many dealers locally that carry them so I was pretty much at their mercy. Out the door the final price was 3450?(within a few dollars) and am very frustrated that their fees added up to almost $1000 over MSRP. Any insight?

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:20 pm

i hate to break it to you, but that's how much a 2008 International would have cost me out-the-door here in austin...

BadBrains · Post by **BadBrains** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:25 pm

Word, I bought a 2007 black/silver 125 for $2953 out the door price (also in Austin). Sounds like you didn't really have any other option. Where did you buy it from?

arrowman · Post by **arrowman** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:27 pm

That's the same price as chicago.

ScootingInTheRain · Post by **ScootingInTheRain** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:29 pm

That is just about exactly what I am about to pay for my Orange buddy.

(I get the next one off the truck to Ducati Seattle)...

kilted texan · Post by **kilted texan** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:30 pm

Not to diminish that you are upset but, MSRP for the Buddy is $2699. $3450 is only $750 in fees. The only thing I can say is that when you buy it new you will pay dealer fees. I am sorry that you are upset, but you have a great scooter that should last you a long time..

City Kitty · Post by **City Kitty** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:40 pm

I will add to my original post.
The fun that we've had with our new baby in the past week really does override all upset over the price, just the bargain hunter in me says otherwise. After finding this post and reading some of the other posts about prices, I thought it seemed like alot of money, but then again location location location(North Dallas). Were thinking about getting another since they are such a nice ride, and just want to make sure that we're not(did not) paying something outrageous.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:46 pm

What dealer did you buy the bike from? They cant be too great if they wont budge the price of a OLD bike. Theres no way a new 2008 bike would even cost that much out the door unless it was a international.

It isnt your fault, but I think the people who sold you the bike are dishonest. I'd say you paid 400-500 dollars over than what most would pay.

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:48 pm

Wow, 6 people posted while I was writing my manifesto.

The following may be redundant:

It might be a little high, but not $1000 high. MSRP is $2700; the '07s I've seen were $100 less, so maybe '07 MSRP = $2600? Is your "out the door" price including taxes and tags? Not sure what your tax rate or license fees are, but out here it was just over $300. That would put you at $2900 or $3000 depending on what you consider MSRP. Two out of the 3 dealers within 2 hours of here charge $200 in additional fees - different combinations of "freight" and "assembly" but the total is the same.

So I'd say your price was in the neighborhood of $200 higher than what I paid. But the magic words are "in stock" and "color I liked." Scooters are selling like hot cakes right now. In my case, I drove a total of 320 miles, spent ~$60 on gas, and took a vacation day in order to get my hands on a 125 in my 3rd-choice color.

My 2 cents - it's hard to say what a "fair" price is in a free market. Some would argue that since you were willing to pay the price, then it must have been a fair one. I can see it both ways. In my case, I could have paid an extra $130 to get my 2nd choice color at a different dealer, and I decided it wasn't worth it and drove in the opposite direction for my 3rd choice. (my first choice isn't available anywhere for any price, it seems)

What *would* frustrate me is if the dealer wasn't upfront about their fees. Both dealers with extra fees I spoke with were extremely fair in disclosing the extra costs. One dealer rolls his fees into the price tags on the scooters, so the price you see is $200 higher. The other dealer lists MSRP, but puts a prominent note that "additional fees apply," and offers that information as soon as the question of price comes up.
If you'd already discussed price, already agreed to the sale, started paperwork, etc. And THEN were told about $400 worth of fees, then I'd be ticked. I'd also walk out and take my business somewhere else. I can't tell from the OP what the situation was.

sorry for rambling a bit, but I hope it helps you feel a little better. My prediction: a year from now you *will* remember how much fun the Buddy is to ride, and you *won't* miss the extra $200 so much.

NathanielSalzman · Post by **NathanielSalzman** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:50 pm

Also keep in mind that probably mid-to-late June or early July the supply of Buddy scooters (and probably Kymco and SYM) in the USA is going to dry up to about nothing. Scooterville, our local shop here and one of Genuine's top three dealers, is a Buddy ghost town and not expecting to get another shipment until the fall and even that one will be pretty light. Therefore the market for used scooters is going to explode and with gas prices on the rise, an enterprising Buddy owner could probably make good money on a scooter in good condition.

Previous to now the USA scooter market has been such a thin slice of the overall global market that the manufacturers (PGO, LML, SYM, etc.) were only allocating a certain amount of scooters to their USA importers like Genuine. So now that there's been a literal run on scooters in this country the meager supply of scooters made available to USA importers is all but exhausted. Word 'round the campfire is that Genuine is working pretty much night and day to keep scooters coming across the ocean but the factories already have their production spoken for elsewhere in the world.

It's also worth noting that scooter shops make a pretty thin profit on the scooters themselves, so they've got to cover their actual costs. You'll get charged a freight fee because they had to ship that scooter in from Asia. You'll get charged setup because somebody in the shop is going to make sure there's oil in it, that the battery is hooked up and charged, and that the tires hold air. That tech needs to eat too, folks. And lastly, the fact that (at least in Minnesota) they license and title the scooter for you there at the shop and you don't have to go to the DMV - isn't that alone worth $750?

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:55 pm

Does that price include title and registration fees? (In some states it does, in others, it doesn't.)

It seems high for an '07 model. I'm not surprised they're not making deals—many dealers can't keep them in stock and supplies are low.

There are 3 dealers that sell Buddys in the DFW area: Moxie Scooters (midcities), Garner's (Cleburne) and University Vespa Dallas/Vespa FW (same owners so I'm assuming same price). I don't know what good it will do you, but you could call the others and ask about OTD for an '08 125.

The other thing to consider is that when demand is as high as it is now, dealers may start putting a premium on prices. For instance, when I was looking for cars, I discovered that it would cost me a few thousand more to buy a Mini Cooper Clubman in L.A. than in Long Beach (45 minutes away) due to a "location charge." I also learned that they sell so well, they never make deals on prices. It is what it is.

I hope dealers aren't resorting to this kind of practice. On the other hand, if they can't fulfill demands for scooters, they need to make as much from each sale as they can. (In a Vespa dealership, they could even pad the price by a couple hundred and the Buddy will still look like a good deal!)

Given that Buddy prices just went up, if you got stuck with an extra supply/demand charge, it was probably a couple hundred dollars more than it would have been otherwise. Did the dealer include any accessories or extras? Whitewall tires? Anything?

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:56 pm

Remember, too, supply and demeand. Buddy's are getting to be in short supply. That means that dealers will be able to charge more for them. You're still getting in pretty early in the rush for a scooter.
Enjoy the heck out of it. Buddy's are a blast!

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:59 pm

Supply and Demand are strongly in play in the scooter market now and for the foreseeable future. If you really want to be frightened, go to 2StrokeBuzz and read POC Phil's comments at the bottom of the Scooter Shortage thread. POC Phil is the Genuine dealer in Cleveland.

To the OP, I don't think you got ripped off at all, esp considering current market conditions.

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:01 pm

Rumor has it the other item having massive markups right now is 1990's Geo Metros - the ones with the 3-cylinder engines. Ebay prices are supposedly skyrocketing. In high school we had so much fun picking on the guy with a Metro. Who knew? He could probably sell it now for not much less than it cost him new back then.

+1 supply and demand.

lex · Post by **lex** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 pm

City Kitty wrote:Out the door the final price was 3450?(within a few dollars) and am very frustrated that their fees added up to almost $1000 over MSRP. Any insight?

Hate to break it to you, but I paid $10 less for my 08' Pamplona.

NathanielSalzman · Post by **NathanielSalzman** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:07 pm

ericalm wrote:The other thing to consider is that when demand is as high as it is now, dealers may start putting a premium on prices. For instance, when I was looking for cars, I discovered that it would cost me a few thousand more to buy a Mini Cooper Clubman in L.A. than in Long Beach (45 minutes away) due to a "location charge." I also learned that they sell so well, they never make deals on prices. It is what it is.

Yeah, you'll never pay less than MSRP for a new MINI. Try to haggle and they'll just chuckle at you. That said, the SoCal dealers have an especially bad rep for marking up their MINIs simply because they can. In some cases, they've sold their allotment and have had to ship the car in from another dealer somewhere in the country, which is legitimate. But mostly I think they're just capitalizing on high demand and short supply. The Clubman is not an extra allotment in terms of what the USA market gets for the year. MINI is exporting fewer hardtops and fewer convertibles to make Clubmans available. I'm glad I got my Cooper S when I did.

The same thing will be true for scooters from here out I'd wager - you'll never pay less than MSRP. I got a bit of a deal on my '06 Blur in April in that I didn't have to pay freight and the bike price was dropped to $2900 compared to the $3500 base price for an '07 Blur - which people are reporting that dealers are not making any discounts on those. Makes sense. Whether or not we'll see Genuine dealers charging above MSRP remains to be seen. I hope not.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:10 pm

A brief editorial comment...

The 2 big scooter shops here in Denver are not cheap but, in my experience, they are honest and enthusiastic scooter and moto people. If they can make a few extra bucks off of all the SUV owning newbies jumping onto the scooter bandwagon, good for them! It's been a struggle for some of these dealers for many years.

And a brief disclaimer...

If you're posting here on MB or MV I would tend to think of you as an enthusiast. For you folks, it's more a matter of timing than anything else. Like someone above said, "supply and demand".

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:19 pm

"That said, the SoCal dealers have an especially bad rep for marking up their MINIs simply because they can. In some cases, they've sold their allotment and have had to ship the car in from another dealer somewhere in the country, which is legitimate. But mostly I think they're just capitalizing on high demand and short supply. "

From a consumer point of view, it does suck to pay more just because of where you're at or because of some factor outside your control (supply, etc.) But there's nothing inherently wrong with raising prices when supply is short.
That's actually how it's supposed to work. Otherwise, 100 people get a great deal and 1,000 get nothing.
The appropriate "location" markup is the price at which the number of people willing to pay it anyway is equal to the number of cars you have to sell. If the markup is high enough that you decide it's worth a hefty drive to buy lower, then you become part of the excess demand spilling off.
Not trying to start an argument - I don't like how it feels on the buying end, either. But from a selling end, it's summers like this that make up for the ones where profits are so low you scrape to get by (or so I imagine - I'm not a dealer).

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:21 pm

I would think as soon as the scooter gets to a certain price some more folks would be inclined to purchase an entry level Honda MotorCycle over the scooter.

Does anyone know if the motorcycle dealers are having the same supply demand issues?

luckyleighton · Post by **luckyleighton** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:25 pm

I have been looking at scooters/motorcycles now for a few months. I had decided that a motorcycle was the way to go for street transportation because the $$ per CC ratio seemed much lower.

I have lucked into a rattler for really cheap. But this was luck, but it gives me the toy I was looking for.

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:26 pm

kazoo wrote:I would think as soon as the scooter gets to a certain price some more folks would be inclined to purchase an entry level Honda MotorCycle over the scooter.

Does anyone know if the motorcycle dealers are having the same supply demand issues?

That's a great point. I can only speak locally, but no - not here, yet. The Yamaha dealer has plenty of cycles on the floor, but has sold out of Vino's, twice. They sold 2 scooters all last season, and they've sold 14 already this year. Not eye-popping sales numbers compared to Genuine, but still a 700% increase.

But as I was motoring around my block to get the hang of my new Buddy, I've seen 3 different motorcycles bucking, stalling, etc. as new riders work on getting the hang of them. So you might be right. Locally we have a lack of scooter dealers but a wealth of cycle dealers, so...

City Kitty · Post by **City Kitty** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:28 pm

We picked it up at University Vespa in Dallas. They were very upfront and helpful. The price inclued no upgrades/accessories, but does include tax title and liscense(we just have to go in to them to get the plates in a few days).
Funny thing about the clubman. We were actually pondering the purchase of one (S model as well) before we decided on the scooter. Here in Dallas we were looking about $3000 above MSPR for the model that we wanted and a 8-12 week wait for delivery, but the shock was in the insurance prices for our area. We decided to keep our old pick up for getting our bikes(bicycles) to the lake and to races and use the scooter for daily commuting.

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:41 pm

City Kitty wrote:but does include tax title and liscense.

When you factor all that in, it really doesn't seem that out of line with what I paid for an 08 125.

My OTD price with a helmet was pretty much right at $3K. Once back in Illinois where I had to pay taxes and license, it was close to an additional $300.

Another thing to consider (as many others on here have said) is that you determined its value by paying what they asked.

DrDiff · Post by **DrDiff** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:52 pm

When I bought my MINI I paid sticker price. and Minimal dealer feas.
I have heard tons of horror stories about people paying $5K and up ADP on MINIs. If that is what a dealer is asking look elsewhere. In a MINI you can buy on the east coast and drive it back for less than the mark up.

I will do the same thing when I buy my Buddy. Pay Sticker and minimal dealer feas. Unfortunately you can't fly out to say New York and pick up a Buddy and drive it back to say LA. Well maybe you can....

Patience Grasshopper Patience.

Localy the brand new Buddy dealer here in Valparaiso, IN has only unsold 2006 and 2007 models. No New Buddies what so ever.

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:37 pm

bfreed wrote:<deleted for space>I've seen 3 different motorcycles bucking, stalling, etc. as new riders work on getting the hang of them. <deleted>

You're probably right but you might consider this thread as well:

topic4690.html?sid=9e5f8a9519db6f86a6d8a792b4de88dd

iinigma7 · Post by **iinigma7** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:42 pm

I paid $3,200 OTD for my "07 Italia. But honestly, I was just happy to get one. It's just money. As my dad always says, "you can't take it with you".

Ride happy.

dru_ · Post by **dru_** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:50 pm

Howardr wrote:Remember, too, supply and demeand. Buddy's are getting to be in short supply. That means that dealers will be able to charge more for them. You're still getting in pretty early in the rush for a scooter.
Enjoy the heck out of it. Buddy's are a blast!

It's not just Buddy's, it's scooters in general, and the Buddy is the best bang for the buck on the market.

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:14 pm

Full size motorcycle sales are actually struggling versus 1st quarter last year. Discretionary spending is down due to the tightening of the overall economy. The dollar sliding against pretty much every other currency doesn’t help either…especially with foreign bikes… It also doesn’t help that banks aren’t freely lending out money like they have been for the last 6-7 years. The mpg on most full size motorcycles does not put them at such a great gas advantage as a scooter does.

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:22 pm

inaddition to the stigma of MC, either you are a roughhouse dude or crazy crotch rocket youngster. Where with scooters you are Audry Hepburn scooting around Rome !

Plus for commuting, which is probably the initial reason to purchase, the scooter is plenty big, cheaper, has storage, its cute and if you are a female, easy to get in, easy to handle and clearner (no grease stains on your clothes).

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:09 pm

EP_scoot wrote:Where with scooters you are Audry Hepburn scooting around Rome !

Can I be Gregory Peck scooting around Rome?

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:16 pm

OF COURSE ! I am just in love with Audry so she is always in my mind, Meg Ryan being a close 2nd.

The old Vespa replaced by a Buddy and the photographer's old 500 replaced with this new one !

I miss Europe, sigh.

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:17 pm

ericalm wrote: Can I be Gregory Peck scooting around Rome?

Big Country

One of my all time favorite male actors of that era.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:17 pm

City Kitty wrote: I'm a new scooter owner and did as much research as I could about what I was buying. I ended up getting a 2007 125 model as it was available and I liked the color. The dealership wouldn't budge on the price at all and there are not many dealers locally that carry them so I was pretty much at their mercy. Out the door the final price was 3450?(within a few dollars) and am very frustrated that their fees added up to almost $1000 over MSRP. Any insight?

Well, that price would be a bit high around here but we have no sales tax. You say you did your research so you knew you were paying top dollar to get what you wanted now. Why are you upset and frustrated. Ride the scoot, be safe, have fun.

justscooten · Post by **justscooten** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:32 pm

buddy 150 3408 out the door here at scoot around town in michigan

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:34 pm

inaddition to the stigma of MC, either you are a roughhouse dude or crazy crotch rocket youngster. Where with scooters you are Audry Hepburn scooting around Rome !

Honestly, what's the difference between this quote and the one in the other thread insulting women? Riders still tend to segregate themselves and it doesn't help us at all. Sportbike riders think Harley riders are poseurs, Harley riders think you can't be a serious rider without some sort of fringe and everyone thinks BMW F-650 riders are dorks. It really doesn't help our cause.

As for Minis, they are one of the few exceptions. We came close to buying a Cooper S last Fall. New Minis on the lot were going for significant discounts but anything built to order was list price.

r0sa · Post by **r0sa** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:55 pm

i paid $2800 for an '07 125 buddy, in san antonio though, i suppose it depends on your location b/c taxes everywhere differ...

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:18 pm

gt1000 wrote:
inaddition to the stigma of MC, either you are a roughhouse dude or crazy crotch rocket youngster. Where with scooters you are Audry Hepburn scooting around Rome !
Honestly, what's the difference between this quote and the one in the other thread insulting women? Riders still tend to segregate themselves and it doesn't help us at all. Sportbike riders think Harley riders are poseurs, Harley riders think you can't be a serious rider without some sort of fringe and everyone thinks BMW F-650 riders are dorks. It really doesn't help our cause.

As for Minis, they are one of the few exceptions. We came close to buying a Cooper S last Fall. New Minis on the lot were going for significant discounts but anything built to order was list price.

If I cared what anyone thought I would ride a harley... I ride a scooter!

the answer to the price question is simple:

WHY RED IS RED!

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:27 am

Here in Virginia where a moped (50cc) has no license, insurance, registration a Honda Rukus is going for $2500 to $3000! And no dealership has one in stock. Heard the same thing applies to the Zuma's, and C3's. I do find it strange that the Metropolitans and Vinos have not skyrocketed though, they just command full MSRP.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:35 am

I paid $3180 out the door for my wife's Mother's Day 2007 Sunset Orange Buddy 125. It included the base price, transportation, dealer prep( I hate that one), tax, tag, and the horrible preprinted on the sales invoice "Administrative Fee".
When I asked the salesman if it was cheaper than the 2008s on the floor he said,

"...doesn't matter which one you want, they're the same price."

That was fine. Now you can hardly find a Buddy. Its a seller's market and discounts are practically gone. But the more you ride it, the less expensive it becomes. Just enjoy it. If you intend to keep it, that $100 or $200 or even $300 dollars will matter less and less.
I've had my Helix for 8 years, bought it used, don't really remember the exact price.
I've had my Triumph almost three years, bought new, can kinda remember the ball park price and have no intention of digging out the paperwork. I can tell you that it only gets 45mpg and sits in the garage most of the time.

Enjoy your Buddy.

Dennis

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:38 am

sc00ter wrote:Here in Virginia where a moped (50cc) has no license, insurance, registration a Honda Rukus is going for $2500 to $3000! And no dealership has one in stock. Heard the same thing applies to the Zuma's, and C3's. I do find it strange that the Metropolitans and Vinos have not skyrocketed though, they just command full MSRP.

Honda Ruckus, a very popular scoot, has been discontinued. That and the escalating demand for scooters is why the price has increased.

Maybe I should sell my 2004 Ruckus. Step right up! Only 18,000 miles on it for the low, low, price of oh, let's say, $2200!! What a steal!

Dennis

Knox · Post by **Knox** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:44 am

gt1000 wrote:A brief editorial comment...

The 2 big scooter shops here in Denver are not cheap but, in my experience, they are honest and enthusiastic scooter and moto people. If they can make a few extra bucks off of all the SUV owning newbies jumping onto the scooter bandwagon, good for them! It's been a struggle for some of these dealers for many years.

And a brief disclaimer...

If you're posting here on MB or MV I would tend to think of you as an enthusiast. For you folks, it's more a matter of timing than anything else. Like someone above said, "supply and demand".

Denver here as well - the dealers here are great. I paid over MSRP and expected to, but the SERVICE and FREE help they give me is incredible. Scooted by Sportique on broadway today with some questions and they took it back right away, fixed me up and I was on my way without a cent spent. The shop makes the transaction worth it, IMO.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:03 am

Seriously, look on Craigs list. You will probally get it if you post it. I was going to sell my 07 Buddy 125 for $1600 if my girl does not want it for herself but now I might have to reconsider. Honda did discontinue the Ruckus? I know the Big Ruckus but why the 50cc? I always wanted one for a toy but could not justify it after the Buddy. After the Zumas were sold (I had 1 00 and 2 newer ones) I dont miss 50cc that much, if at all.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:34 am

sc00ter wrote:Seriously, look on Craigs list. You will probally get it if you post it. I was going to sell my 07 Buddy 125 for $1600 if my girl does not want it for herself but now I might have to reconsider. Honda did discontinue the Ruckus? I know the Big Ruckus but why the 50cc? I always wanted one for a toy but could not justify it after the Buddy. After the Zumas were sold (I had 1 00 and 2 newer ones) I dont miss 50cc that much, if at all.

Yes, the only thing left in their lineup is the Metropolitan and the SilverWing.

Honda must have plans for later. They're not stupid, but it does make ya wonder. Maybe 09 will reveal a brand new plan for them. Hope so. I had a Big Ruckus, wasn't really wild about it. I like the Ruckus but wish it were a bit faster. Heck, why spend a lot of money to hop one up when you can just buy a Buddy or some other 125 for just a couple hundred more and get lots more speed?

Dennis

StacyB · Post by **StacyB** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:35 am

City Kitty, I didn't read the other response posts all the way through, so sorry if this is overkill, but to me, you did not overpay. I bought mine from University and paid roughly the same from what I remember (including an extra goodie, TT&L, etc...) And they gave me a helmet which was nice.

Off topic: Where in Dallas are you? I'm in Oak Cliff. Have you discovered DFWSCOOTERIST.COM yet?

Modern Buddy

Think I paid way too much!!

Think I paid way too much!!

Exactly

Re: Think I paid way too much!!

Re: Think I paid way too much!!

Re: Think I paid way too much!!

agree