i think the tide is changing...

fs8gbe · Post by **fs8gbe** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:51 pm

i was at my local vespa dealer getting my et2 serviced yesterday and it was crazy. every 30 seconds someone came in looking for a scooter "that cost 1000 dollars that got 100 miles to the gallon." i felt bad for the staff but they handled it well.

the reason i am posting this is because they also are an aprilia and kymco dealer. vespas on the left, aprilia's on the right, and kymcos in the rear. anyway, almost everyone came in saying "i want a scooter, but i don't want one like that [points to vespa], but i want one that is more me, maybe sportier?"

i missed out on getting a blur...getting married in july and that takes a crapton of money...but if that consumer trend continues, and i hope it does, maybe we'll have more blurs on the horizon.

btw, the dealers kept answering that question by trying to sell the customer kymco scooters. i can sort of see why, but i just didn't understand why they didn't start stocking syms and genuines...

Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:30 pm

fs8gbe wrote: vespas on the left, aprilia's on the right, and kymcos in the rear. anyway, almost everyone came in saying "i want a scooter, but i don't want one like that [points to vespa], but i want one that is more me, maybe sportier?"

Really? That's very interesting...

fs8gbe wrote:...the dealers kept answering that question by trying to sell the customer kymco scooters. i can sort of see why, but i just didn't understand why they didn't start stocking syms and genuines...

You know what would be interesting? Those folks who are looking for something "sportier?" - I'd love to sit them down with lots of photos of the scooters you are talking about, the SYMs & Genuines and see if any of those (especially the Blur) appeal to them. If not, it'd be very interesting to sit them down with a copy of the UK scooter mag, Which Scoot? and see what does appeal to them. Hmm...

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:16 pm

It's the scooter boom. It's a time now when people are looking at scooters for pure gas saving. They want instant savings, so they go and look at all scooter shops.

I went to metro scooter yesterday to say hi, could barley! every 30 seconds, the door rang and someone came in, I left because I knew they had business to take care of, glad to see them have business!

Eazy · Post by **Eazy** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:38 pm

I hate the vespa dealership here.

But unfortunately the shop I work with can't keep scooters in, so we have 2 choices; send people to the place that sells chinese tupperware with motors or send them to the vespa dealer.

It's a rough spot to be in.

GFridrich3 · Post by **GFridrich3** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:50 pm

jfrost2 wrote:It's the scooter boom. It's a time now when people are looking at scooters for pure gas saving. They want instant savings, so they go and look at all scooter shops.

I went to metro scooter yesterday to say hi, could barley! every 30 seconds, the door rang and someone came in, I left because I knew they had business to take care of, glad to see them have business!

I think this is the problem thats going to end up hurting even more people than they are already hurting financially. Buying a scooter or motorcycle for "pure gas savings" is completely ridiculous. Im looking to buy a Blur, and saving money on gas is easily halfway down my list on why I want it. Factoring in the average gas savings, in my particluar case, it would take me 5 to 7 years for the scooter to pay itself off with that mentality. Thats not even factoring in recurring costs of maintenance, insurance, licence fees, etc....

Oh well, like they say, give the people what they want. I just hope that all these people realize they are nothing more than an ant to be squished in the eyes of the large ignorant SUV drivers on the road that dont really care who gets in their way. Its stressful enough driving a car sometimes the way some people drive these days, let alone doing it on something no bigger than a bmx bike.

Sometimes I wish it were winter more often, just so I could get more seat time on a sled since I feel so comfortable on them. Im hoping that getting a scooter is going to give me the same pleasure in the warmer months of the year, and serve a pratical purpose as well, since I wouldnt even think about driving a snowmobile to work and back!

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:04 pm

The problem that I see is the US just doesn't have a good selection of sport scooters. The Blur is just one grain of sand on an entire beach of scooters. All you have to do is look at a copy of "Twist and Go" magazine and the "What Scooter" section in the back to see all the sport type scooters that are available everywhere else but here. The rest of the scooter world moved-on 20 plus years ago...

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:08 pm

Eazy wrote:I hate the vespa dealership here.

But unfortunately the shop I work with can't keep scooters in, so we have 2 choices; send people to the place that sells chinese tupperware with motors or send them to the vespa dealer.

It's a rough spot to be in.

I'm waiting for the day when I can go to a shop and see a good selection of French, Italian, Taiwanese and Spainish sports scooters like they have in many other parts of the world...

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:40 am

GFridrich3 wrote:
jfrost2 wrote:It's the scooter boom. It's a time now when people are looking at scooters for pure gas saving. They want instant savings, so they go and look at all scooter shops.

I went to metro scooter yesterday to say hi, could barley! every 30 seconds, the door rang and someone came in, I left because I knew they had business to take care of, glad to see them have business!
I think this is the problem thats going to end up hurting even more people than they are already hurting financially. Buying a scooter or motorcycle for "pure gas savings" is completely ridiculous. Im looking to buy a Blur, and saving money on gas is easily halfway down my list on why I want it. Factoring in the average gas savings, in my particluar case, it would take me 5 to 7 years for the scooter to pay itself off with that mentality. Thats not even factoring in recurring costs of maintenance, insurance, licence fees, etc....

Oh well, like they say, give the people what they want. I just hope that all these people realize they are nothing more than an ant to be squished in the eyes of the large ignorant SUV drivers on the road that dont really care who gets in their way. Its stressful enough driving a car sometimes the way some people drive these days, let alone doing it on something no bigger than a bmx bike.

Sometimes I wish it were winter more often, just so I could get more seat time on a sled since I feel so comfortable on them. Im hoping that getting a scooter is going to give me the same pleasure in the warmer months of the year, and serve a pratical purpose as well, since I wouldnt even think about driving a snowmobile to work and back!

You're formula has a fatal flaw - the residual value of the vehicle they are parking. I see economists all the time saying it doesn't make sense to buy a scooter and park the SUV. You'll never realize a savings. Well, yes and no. The miles one puts on the scoot are miles they don't put on the other vehicle. This means there will be less depreciation whey they go to sell the vehicle. This is even more important if the vehicle is leased and reacing the cap on mileage. Now, if the SUV was recently purchased, then no - switching to a scoot and keeping the other vehicle doesn't make sense. If there's only a year or two left on the loan, then most of the payment is principle, not interest, so you are getting some return on your "investment" by parking the vehicle. It also depends on how long you intend to ride scoots. If you are making a lifestyle change, go ahead and get the scoot. Over the long haul you'll be ahead. If you are only doing it to ride out a short-term spike in gas prices, then it's probably not a good idea.

tempalte · Post by **tempalte** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:05 am

it would take me 5 to 7 years for the scooter to pay itself off with that mentality

Shouldn't a blur last 5 to 7 years? If you are driving an SUV that gets about 12 MPG, then you would have to drive about 15,000 miles on a scooter to pay for itself in gas. In my case that would take about 4 years.

But each mile you save on the car, helps with depreciation.

So in 4 years, my scoot will have paid for itself in gas. I will still have a scooter to ride and my car will be worth more because it has 15,000 less miles on it.

5 years isn't a bad payback period. Plus if gas keeps rising at this rate, that might cut down to 3 years. A year ago I thought would not have dreamed of $4 gas. Now some people are talking about $5 gas coming soon.

onemind · Post by **onemind** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:03 am

By using a scooter in lieu of a second (or more) vehicle, the insurance savings will likely be in excess of 1,000 a year. That should speed 'break-even' time!

GFridrich3 · Post by **GFridrich3** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:04 am

onemind wrote:By using a scooter in lieu of a second (or more) vehicle, the insurance savings will likely be in excess of 1,000 a year. That should speed 'break-even' time!

Actually, the way I see it, wouldn't you would be spending more on insurance having to cover two vehicles?

For my formula above in my last post, i was strictly going by the numbers if the ONLY contributing factor to paying off the scooter was saving money on gas. You cant ALWAYS use your scooter, there will be times when its just not pratical, especially for me, since i will only get to drive it 5-6 months of the year.

dru_ · Post by **dru_** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:52 pm

tempalte wrote: it would take me 5 to 7 years for the scooter to pay itself off with that mentality

Shouldn't a blur last 5 to 7 years? If you are driving an SUV that gets about 12 MPG, then you would have to drive about 15,000 miles on a scooter to pay for itself in gas. In my case that would take about 4 years.

But each mile you save on the car, helps with depreciation.

So in 4 years, my scoot will have paid for itself in gas. I will still have a scooter to ride and my car will be worth more because it has 15,000 less miles on it.

5 years isn't a bad payback period. Plus if gas keeps rising at this rate, that might cut down to 3 years. A year ago I thought would not have dreamed of $4 gas. Now some people are talking about $5 gas coming soon.

It's not just gas though. Most people don't eliminate a car,they add a scooter, so you still maintain the debt burden of the car and it's insurance, and add the debt of the scooter, it's insurance, and it you practice safe riding, the debt of proper gear which over the course of the first year will easily equal or exceed the price of the scooter, and needs to be replaced more often.

I'm still and advocate, but not for the reasons often thrown out there. Greater scooter/mc use means less wear and tear on roads (reduced environmental impact from repaving and patching), less space required for parking (reduced impact of lost greenspace), encourages urabnization (reduced suburban sprawl), increased awareness of scooters and mc's improves rider safety, increased purchasing will drive further and faster R&D.

We *will* see electric scooters that are actually usable before we'll see electric cars (Vectrix, I've ridden it, it is viable today, if a tad pricey). You will see Vespa hybrids before 2010, and that is just the start, but if people aren't buying none of this matters, so really I'm ok with folks buying for the fuel savings, because in the long term, the Quality of Life changes that scooters bring with them far outweigh the marginal gains of the Fuel Savings, which are, unfortunately, an easier sell.

NathanielSalzman · Post by **NathanielSalzman** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:39 pm

The major part of the "gas savings" equation that people seem to never talk about is cash flow. Even if it does take 4-5 years for a scooter to pay for itself, was that really the point? Or was the point to go from spending ~$400/month on gas to spending $150/month. Sure, my car payment didn't go away and I've got to account for the $90/month or so I'm paying on the scooter for insurance and financing, but that's still a decent chunk of change that didn't go to Saudi Arabia in April. I'm spending roughly $5 every 100 miles, instead of $25 per 100 miles I get in my very efficient MINI.

Of course the next argument will be "well, you're riding more than you would have been driving because you're riding for recreation." True. But even then my recreational scooter riding - maybe 100 miles per weekend is still less than I'd spend on going to a movie, or spending that time reading and drinking coffee at a shop. $5 for a weekend's entertainment? Not too shabby.

The savings are there, but the idea that you'll instantly recoup the cost of a scooter is not realistic in the least.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:40 pm

If you are die hard, sell the car, buy the scoot, it pays for itself much quicker. But if you buy it as a second vehicle, it will take 4-5 years to pay for itself. You still had to pay for the bike itself, which CONSUMERS gasoline, so really, the bike itself is no different than paying an extra 3k on gas for your car.

justscooten · Post by **justscooten** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:31 pm

the way i see it . it takes 80-90 dollers to fill up my f-150 the money last in the tank for about 2 weeks going back and forth to work i dont drive it much more than that. it takes less than 7 dollers to fill my blur. and that will last me 3 weeks with the fun saterday rides. the truck is payed for it can set all summer for all i care

so im lauphing all the way to the bank

tfranchi · Post by **tfranchi** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:15 am

"to ride out a short-term spike in gas prices"

ya think

tunseeker1 · Post by **tunseeker1** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:30 pm

Wow I like this thread a lot!

I don't have a blur tho, I have a buddy.

I bought 2 of them for the fun of riding with the added benefit of saving on gas.

My numbers were car gets about 16 mpg in the city so its .25 a mile to drive it. the scooter gets about 110 mpg with me riding it, so its .04 a mile to ride.

that work out to 23,000 miles to break even in gas. and considering I have put 93,000 miles on a car thats 4 years old I do a bunch of driving. If I can cut half of my driving into scootering its paid for itself in 2 years. By me driving to work every day on the scooter my car insurance drops because near where I work is a high theft area with cars getting stolen but a secure area for motorcycles and scooters.

While it wasn't for financial reasons I can't complain that I am saving money and that if I get tired of the scoots I can sell them and get 70-80% of what I paid for them right back!

tfranchi · Post by **tfranchi** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:33 pm

sell a scooter......?????????

blasphemy

360 · Post by **360** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:35 am

GFridrich3 wrote:
onemind wrote:By using a scooter in lieu of a second (or more) vehicle, the insurance savings will likely be in excess of 1,000 a year. That should speed 'break-even' time!
Actually, the way I see it, wouldn't you would be spending more on insurance having to cover two vehicles?

For my formula above in my last post, i was strictly going by the numbers if the ONLY contributing factor to paying off the scooter was saving money on gas. You cant ALWAYS use your scooter, there will be times when its just not pratical, especially for me, since i will only get to drive it 5-6 months of the year.

5-6 months!?!?! I sure hope it's for some reason other than weather!!

...I'm teasing, but seriously am I just strange for riding it a good 9-10 months out of the year? (even through most of the Chicago winters!) *then again, keep in mind this is my only transportation, so bundling up for a cold scooter ride is still better than waiting around for a bus or train most days...and snowboarding gloves (with those wonderful spouts you can breath warm air into) keep my hands nice on the EXTRA cold days.*

GFridrich3 · Post by **GFridrich3** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:34 am

Yea, unfortunately, the roads in the suburbs dont stay as warm as they do in the city with all that traffic out there. As soon as cold weather hits, i even have to go back to different rubber on my car just to get to work and back safely (and some days, even thats a crap shoot). I couldnt imagine fighting a chicago suburb winter on the blur... Come November sometime, the Blur will be winterized and stored away safely, or possibly stored in a climate controlled loading dock where it can be started up every few weeks or so to keep the fuel line fresh.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:44 am

It's been freezing cold around here lately; must be in the low 50's at least. I think it's time to store the ol' scoot and wait for warmer weather.

Racenut · Post by **Racenut** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:09 am

babblefish wrote:It's been freezing cold around here lately; must be in the low 50's at least. I think it's time to store the ol' scoot and wait for warmer weather.

Yeah, tonight I was outside and needed a jacket. Bay Area summers are nasty that way.

Modern Buddy

i think the tide is changing...

i think the tide is changing...

Re: i think the tide is changing...