Police Profiling Novice Scooterists!

tunseeker1 · Post by **tunseeker1** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:40 pm

This is a thread from the Forum Scootcleveland.com.

It is how a few towns around cleveland are running plates to see if the rider only has permit then pulling them over.

http://www.scootcleveland.com/viewtopic ... &sk=t&sd=a

Tysonviolin · Post by **Tysonviolin** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:47 pm

Lucky for us in SLO, CA the police don't even bat an eye at scooterists....

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:54 pm

that is crazy!

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:34 am

MikieTaps wrote:that is crazy!

Actually, it's not. Read again the "Who's Crashed" thread...

'Nuff said.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:10 am

I have more of an issue with them using the "congested/busy street" as the basis for the violation, which is something fairly subjective and not always avoidable.

That's not part of the permit restriction in CA, where you're only prevented from riding on freeways, at night, or with a passenger. I confess to frequently violating 2 out of 3 of these when I had my permit.

Still, it seems that those complying with the laws don't have to worry.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:36 am

I like this idea actually, I wouldnt mind being pulled over one or two times to be made sure I had my motorcycle license, they'd let me go right away, but the fools who ride with no license at all on the streets, they need to be arrested and banned from 2 wheels.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:42 am

ericalm wrote:I have more of an issue with them using the "congested/busy street" as the basis for the violation, which is something fairly subjective and not always avoidable.

I got a ticket once for doing a U-turn. It was a legal U-turn. The only time U-turns were prohibited was during congestion/rush hour. There wasn't a single car on the road other than mine. He gave me the ticket anyway. I contested it in traffic court and the cop lied and said the road was jammed with traffic. The judge sided with the lying policeman. Grrrr.

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:32 am

Really?! I live in a pretty small, quiet town... but if our cops had nothing better to do than running plates on scooters... I would be a little upset as a tax payer.
I guess no one is speeding in a school zone or rolling stop signs and pulling out in front of the people on scooters with out looking!

AxeYrCat · Post by **AxeYrCat** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:05 pm

Keys wrote: Actually, it's not. Read again the "Who's Crashed" thread...

'Nuff said.

I'm in that thread, and I only had a permit when I crashed, but I crashed when a car decided to drive into me... Even now, I sure that there was nothing I could have done to avoid that crash.

The only reason that I didn't have my license was that the MSF classes were too full to get into over the summer and Ohio doesn't do motorcycle license testing outside of the summer season, so it's relatively difficult (re. a huge PITA) to get one's M endorsement.

Having said that, I think that people really should make every possible effort to get their endorsement -- it'd really help to make a lot of them safer riders, and I see enough people doing dumb things on scooters to think this sort of thing is at least somewhat warranted.

I do not agree with running plates to find out whom to ticket, though, I think it should be based MUCH more on how they're riding.

Police officers should have better ways to spend their time than chasing down license plate info.

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:52 pm

The problem I have is the officer gets to decide what constitutes as a "congested street". So basically any street could be fair game. I think there needs to be a clearer definition on the books.

DJE

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:20 pm

Believe it or not, when cops are driving around, most of them are running tags all the time one every vehicle they can.

My boss is a cop and we have this discussion from time to time. You would be surprised how many arrests are made just from running tags and finding people with warrants.

Me, I could care less. I ride legal and if a cop wants to pull me over he can.

If you are riding on your temps and can not tell what a congested street is than you probably ought not be on the road.

Dave

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:32 pm

ScooterDave wrote:Believe it or not, when cops are driving around, most of them are running tags all the time one every vehicle they can.

My boss is a cop and we have this discussion from time to time. You would be surprised how many arrests are made just from running tags and finding people with warrants.

Me, I could care less. I ride legal and if a cop wants to pull me over he can.

If you are riding on your temps and can not tell what a congested street is than you probably ought not be on the road.

Dave

I definitely know what a congested street looks like but most of them aren't congested 100% of the time. I guess it won't matter soon, my test is coming up in two weeks so I should be fine after that.

Dustin

Groovealufagus · Post by **Groovealufagus** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:49 pm

I don't see how this can be legal.

You can buy, register, and insure any vehicle without a driver's license or special endorsement on your license. In fact, once purchased most states have a set number of days in which you must address both of those things.

Once it's legally on the road anyone could be riding/driving it, not only the owner, who may or may not have gotten their license/permit/M cert.

It would seem to be illegal to pull over a rider without just cause when there is no way to verify the rider being pulled over is the individual that's been profiled by being the registered owner.

What about rental scooters?

As best I understand, you could be arrested for driving without a permit/license if it's discovered during a legitimate traffic stop for a violation, but you cannot be pulled over legitimately without having violated a traffic law. Since it can't be verified that the person riding on the congested street is the owner of the vehicle, if their isn't a law broken, there is no grounds for the traffic stop, and it would have to be thrown out in court.

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:26 pm

Groovealufagus wrote:I don't see how this can be legal.

You can buy, register, and insure any vehicle without a driver's license or special endorsement on your license. In fact, once purchased most states have a set number of days in which you must address both of those things.

Once it's legally on the road anyone could be riding/driving it, not only the owner, who may or may not have gotten their license/permit/M cert.

It would seem to be illegal to pull over a rider without just cause when there is no way to verify the rider being pulled over is the individual that's been profiled by being the registered owner.

What about rental scooters?

As best I understand, you could be arrested for driving without a permit/license if it's discovered during a legitimate traffic stop for a violation, but you cannot be pulled over legitimately without having violated a traffic law. Since it can't be verified that the person riding on the congested street is the owner of the vehicle, if their isn't a law broken, there is no grounds for the traffic stop, and it would have to be thrown out in court.

You are getting into constitutional law. I am not going to argue that.

I am just telling you how it is. Cops run tags all the time while they are out and about. If a tag comes back with a "hit" that the owner has a warrant or is otherwise wanted or is not driving legally such as having a suspended license or with the wrong type of endorsement then that is absolutely grounds to stop them.

If you are driving around in someone's car that has warrants out for their arrest or they have a suspended DL then expect to get pulled over if a cop runs the tag. Likewise if you are riding down a busy road with your temps then expect to get hassled. Stay legal and you will have no problems and it is a moot subject.

Dave

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:05 pm

Groovealufagus wrote:As best I understand, you could be arrested for driving without a permit/license if it's discovered during a legitimate traffic stop for a violation, but you cannot be pulled over legitimately without having violated a traffic law.

You can be pulled over for suspicion of having committed a crime. If you have a full license, you are cleared of any suspicion.

The police can run tags all they like without probable cause because they are simply accessing public documents provided to the state and law enforcement for the purposes of identifying vehicles and licensing riders. They do need a reason to pull you over. But when they discover a permitted rider operating the scooter in violation of the restrictions, that becomes their probable cause.

Since it can't be verified that the person riding on the congested street is the owner of the vehicle, if their isn't a law broken, there is no grounds for the traffic stop, and it would have to be thrown out in court.

Pulling the scooter over is how they verify that the rider is the owner, riding in violation of a permit. If the police had to prove someone had committed a crime before they were able to pull them over or even run their plates, no one would ever get pulled over and stolen vehicles would never be found.

I'm pretty sure the courts would uphold pulling riders over with the reasonable assumption that they were the registered owner. Rental scooters are pretty rare in most cities. If no law has been broken, the case wouldn't go to court anyways.

Now if the police pulled a scooter over with good reason but then decided to search the pet carrier or top case, they would need some sort of probable cause. Granted, it's not that hard to come up with something. The dilated pupils, twitchiness and bumper sticker that says "I'm totally on drugs" would constitute cause, I imagine.