Why I walked out of the MSF course

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anndelise
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Why I walked out of the MSF course

Post by anndelise »

Ok, so I finally feel that I'm able to talk about it. Not sure how to present it so I'll start with a little background info about me.

My brain and I have a ..uh…interesting…yeah that's it…an interesting relationship. It's constantly thinking behind my back, while leaving me to wait for it to pass information to me…eventually…if it feels like it…which usually just means that I'm standing kind of slack-jawed while waiting for it to finally pass something over to me. Ok, not quite that bad, heh. But it does feel as if there are two separate parts of me. The one part that does the talking and deliberate thinking (aka "me") and the other part that just goes and goes and goes and doesn't shut up and wakes me up in my sleep because it finally figured something out from a few days ago and its really excited and it wants me to wake up so it can share the info with me and if I don't wake up or if I try to go back to sleep then it'll just insert some crazy a** dreams with its new found information and I'll have those kinds of dreams where I wake up..and then wake up..and then wake up..never knowing if this time I'm really awake or if it's just another dream of me waking up. (it's revenge on me I guess)

*deep breath..in….and release…*

Sometimes I can't even answer a simple question because the question gets asked and suddenly I'm bombarded with multiple possible meanings/reasons for the question and multiple possible answers for each of those multiple possible meanings/reasons for the question. Sometimes I'll just snag the first one of those I can and blurt it out. Which isn't always the best answer…nor even really ..uh..relevant..to the question. But by then it's too late for me to attempt to describe just how my brain connected my answer to the question, and sometimes I don't even know until a few minutes, a few hours, or even a few days later how it was connected.

I can't say that I'm a "thinker", because the vast majority of this is not deliberate and conscious thinking. That road would lead to crazy-ville. So, since I've never figured out how to get it to shut up (except for a cup of coffee…which numbs me up and knocks me out for about four hours), I've learned to just let it do what it does, and for some situations make allowances for it.

This however also means that I have a difficult time concentrating on any one thing for longer than ..oh..maybe 5 minutes…if even that long. It's not ADD, it's just information overload, and the best way to not get overloaded is to just hop a brain ride for a bit, then jump off to refocus, then hop another brain ride, and so on.

Learning to ride the scooter has involved setting up a game plan with multiple (but somewhat limited) options to choose from at any moment. Working on each skill as the mood strikes, multiple skills at any one practice section. And allowing my brain to figure out what mistakes I'm making, maybe why I'm making them, how I can do it right, imagine doing it right, what's the purpose for doing it that particular way, and making the proper connections. If I consciously interfere with this process, it can really screw things up. So I just have to let it do what it does, and make sure that I have the opportunity to give it more information or physical feedback from the scooter's response. Importantly, riding the scooter has actually helped me quiet my brain somewhat because the constant scanning for risk factors on the roads provides it a ton of information…leaving me space/energy to focus on what I'm doing and where I'm going.

Ok, so now, enter the msf course. There was already some concern that an entire weekend course might be too much for me. (There's a reason I'm on disability.) But there was hope that maybe, just maybe, knowing that it will end in just three days would give me enough oomph to make it through the whole thing.

The Friday class was easy. I'd already read the book and had answered the study questions (before finding the pdf with some of the answers/locations). So what was talked about in class there was pretty much just a review. My table even called me an 'one of those over-achievers' ( :lol: if only they knew :lol: ).

Saturday morning I was up before the alarm clock, surprised that my mind had even allowed me to get some sleep since we (me myself and i) were so nervous about the range section. The class was expected to be on the range by 7:15am. I was there by 6:15am. (I'm not very good at timing things, and thus prefer to be way early rather than constantly worried about time and timing and traffic, and what if this happens and what if that happens, etc. Being early means I'm there, period. If anything happens it'll happen here and won't likely make me late.)

Some of us stood around talking and joking. Some of us nervous. Some of us confident. Me both nervous and fairly confident, lol. Our class splits up with the instructors, and we begin the lessons.

Now, the exercises themselves are not at all bad. It was a good progression from absolute beginning to gradually building up on previous lessons. The only complaint I have is that there wasn't enough basic stopping early on. But about 3 hours into it there was more stopping related exercises.

However, I can actually pinpoint now where my trouble started.
We were doing an exercise that involved us sorta power-walking a line of cones, stopping at each cone, with the intention to begin riding between each of the cones, and eventually riding the full line with only stopping at the end of the cones. The instructor stood at the end of the set of cones to offer further instruction or send us around to the other side and the other coach and another set of cones to stop at. Again, the focus of this exercise wasn't stopping. It was learning how to get the mc moving so that we are actually riding it instead of power-walking it. He kept saying that we would get to the stopping specific exercises later.

In this exercise I quickly recognized that I didn't feel comfortable with my ability/knowledge regarding the stopping controls. It felt to me like something hadn't quite clicked in my brain yet. Like it was still working something out. And stopping on a mc is different from stopping on an automatic scooter. And part of me kept wanting to stop like one would stop on a scooter, thus having some difficulties with the changes of the controls. The instructor kept telling me to let HIM do the thinking and for me to just DO. (How the heck do you get your brain to stop thinking?? Particularly when you're trying to learn something? I can see not doing it consciously..maybe. But in 36 years I've never learned how to stop my brain from thinking (except via coffee).) I had wanted more time to practice the stopping controls so I could get that clicked into my brain. But there is no time to do that. Solo practicing would allow me that time, but this kind of class setting doesn't allow that.

The second part of this exercise was riding the full length to the last set of cones where the instructor was standing. I began making some minor mistakes that I think only I was aware of at the time. Sure the usual mistakes of 'hands off the brake unless you're going to use the brake' and 'all four fingers on the brake when you do use it'. Lol, that was a constant they kept telling me, lol. Poor guys. Anyways, so as I'm making these other minor mistakes (because of whatever it was not yet having clicked in yet, regarding the control differences), my brain became..uh…separated…where part of it was focusing on the mistakes and, I assume, how to resolve the mistakes. Basically its usual thing. And with each mistake, a little more mental energy got sidetracked from ME, and went towards IT…the behind the scenes thinking.

Then we had an exercise that dealt with going into second gear, and then passing a set of cones which were a signal to go into first and come to a stop. For a few times some energy went to figuring out the upshifting and then downshifting thing, and once whatever was needed there clicked, the mental energy was given back to me. But….some of the braking mistakes were become much more noticeable to me. And thus began using up more mental energy as my brain tried working out the issue. Now, if I had been learning solo, I would have taken time to backtrack a bit and get that whole stopping issue worked out. But I wasn't learning solo, so there was no time/ability to do that, just have to keep going. And then somewhere in there I made a simple error of going into first without pulling in the clutch first. The engine revved suddenly, the instructor was really close to me, I didn't know what was happening and I feared I might do what I'd read about and lose control…I didn't want to hurt nor scare him. But I did come to a stop next to him, the engine was still revving, and I'm deliberately racking my brain trying to figure out what was happening. Finally the instructor explained to me that I hadn't pulled in the clutch before downshifting. And we got me squared away again. However, that was the pinpoint of when everything went downhill. Because once that strong emotion comes in, it starts to pervade other aspects. Combine that with now my brain REALLY had something to work on and had pulled out about half of MY mental energy. So now I've got the task at hand to focus on, but I've also got my brain running a mile a minute working on two problems…the stopping issue which was now raised to a higher brain priority than it had before (due to that surge of fear of losing control and hurting the instructor)…as well as the remember to pull in the clutch issue.

So now there's much less energy for me, and my brain's going a mile a minute and the instructor is telling me to stop thinking to let him do the thinking, blah blah blah. And the clutch mistake happened again with the other instructor. Which meant even more mental energy got pulled away from me and my brain became almost obsessed with figuring out these two issues. The best analogy I can think of is you know how they talk about "target fixation"? How a person will fixate on a target and keep moving to that target and likely hit it? Something similar seemed to be happening. My brain became "error fixated". And one of the psychological things that happens for that stuff..is ..mmm….like if you keep saying 'don't forget, don't forget, don't forget, damn, I forgot'. It in a way sends a message to the brain to forget. Whereas saying something like 'remember to, remember to, remember to, yeah I remembered', the message is more positive. It's like saying "don't think of a dog". In order to process the meaning of that statement requires you to think of a dog before you realize that the message is asking you to NOT think of it. (hypnosis technique) Anyways, in some cases (if not most?) of target fixation, the person is telling themselves 'don't hit the curb, don't hit the curb don't hit the…ooph'. The image they had was of hitting the curb, which in essence an instruction to hit the curb. So I think the same thing was happening with the error fixation thing. Because I wasn't allowed the time to work it out with my brain and to help guide it, it just kept running the errors over and over and over again in imagination trying to figure out where the issue was and how to resolve the issue. Which did what? Became subtle 'instructions' to make those errors. And I did. The small mistakes kept getting more pronounced, irresolvable at the pace I was having to go, and began happening more and more often.

At the end of this exercise, I was seriously considering quitting right there. But then we had a break and I figured ok, the break will help calm my brain down.

The break wasn't long enough for me to resolve anything. The next exercise came up, which was basically cone weaving with the cones in line with each other. I made it through that, but again kept screwing up the stopping. Then we began an offset cone weave, and I was third in line, and there was already very little mental energy left for ME, and the first person went down the middle as we were instructed, paused at the pause cone, continued on with the clutch control section, followed by the second person, followed by me. I made a 'stopping' error again at the pause cone, which grabbed up nearly all the remaining mental energy, leaving only a small portion left to me. Then the first person turned to the left, which, for some reason was where I thought we were supposed to go next. The second person turned right. And at the moment that that second person turned right, everything in me shattered. What few connections had been made since the beginning of the riding range to that moment just broke apart. Nothing left. As if I'd never been through any of it. I wasn't even sure how to pull over out of the practice area to stop. Somehow I did. And I numbly shut down the mc (thankfully it didn't require the fuel off valve), got off, and stood there, dazed. I didn't know where to go nor what to do next. My brain had finally shut down. What little energy was left was put forth into self preservation. I pulled off my gloves, then my helmet, waved one of the students who had paused to look at me..waved him on to continue, and then sat down on the curb. I couldn't think at that moment, nothing. Just reminding myself to breath.

Then I saw one of the instructors walking around the range towards me…and my brain somewhat kicked into gear. I began feeling bad because his walking to me meant he wasn't helping the other students. That my stopping might affect one of the other girls who was nearly to tears already. That I wouldn't get a chance to hug her like she seemed to need nor give her any words of encouragement. And this brought me to holding back tears. And still the instructor was coming towards me. I stood up to meet him.

He seemed surprised that I had stopped. Thinking that something major must have happened. I told him that I had just reached the straw that broke the camel's back. Noone knew I was even entering that area. Yeah I was making some stopping mistakes and there seemed to be some control confusion issues, but they knew I was coming from a scooter so the confusion mistakes were to be expected. He kept telling me that I really should come back, not to quit, that I could ride, that if there was anything major wrong they would have told me. I couldn't. I couldn't go back at that moment. My brain was fried and I didn't want to risk hurting anyone. I didn't feel that I was safe at the moment. He agreed that if I didn’t feel safe then I shouldn't get back out there for the exercise. And we both knew that that meant I was out of the course. And again he tried to assure me that I could ride, that I should come back, that I had been doing better than some of the other students. And again it seemed like my breaking down hadn't been noticed by them. (which in all fairness probably wasn't, as when I start getting overwhelmed I withdraw and withdraw and withdraw until I finally burst).

I asked him if he wanted me to push the mc somewhere other than where it was (I wanted him to get back to the other students), he said he'd take care of it. He walked me back to where my stuff was. He asked me what I intended to do (regarding licensing). I said I would probably just take the state's test. He said that it would be just as hard or harder than their own test (I'm not sure which..just that there was a comparison with the msf course being in the favored position, heh). He asked if I had my permit, yeah I do. He said to go ahead and sign up for the next course which would probably be a month or so from now, that would give me time to practice the exercises I had learned…to practice them on my scooter, and to use my scooter when I go through the course the next time. He assured me that it's common for even seasoned riders to get confused when moving back and forth between scooter and mc. And that since I was going to be riding the scooter I had, then I should learn on that.

I then numbly walked to my van, got out of my gear, called my brother to go for a walk with me (walking and talking with him almost always helps me sort my thoughts/emotions out), drove towards his house, and half way there I pulled over and just bawled and bawled and bawled…releasing the majority of all that tension.

After our rather short walk (back was hurting), I finally made it home, glad that I wasn't riding two wheels because I was so much on automatic pilot (and glad that there were not many other vehicles around, and listening to my mind crack jokes about how the point I was at is what many two wheelers complain about, heh). And then went straight to bed. I was pretty numb for that night and most the next day.

It was sometimes during Sunday that my brain popped up some useful information after being kinda hushed. But apparently it was working away at the problem of what happened. First it seemed to have been working on what could have been done to prevent the straw, how could I have made it through the course? But ultimately, I wouldn't have. Possibly I could have made it if I'd used the scooter. But even my mind didn't think that I would have made it all the way through on Sunday. The course format just doesn't suit me, personally. In real life I would have never pushed myself to ride for 5 hours straight one day and then 5+ hours the next day. Not for many years to come. That had the course been more of a few hours each evening for about a week, I would have done ok. But not the intense weekend thing. Not with the way my mind works. Knowing this actually helped reduce the guilt and self-criticalness.

Then my mind worked on some of the other issues. Finally got things sorted and clicked into place, I guess. Of course, I also haven't even looked at Buggy since bringing her home on Friday. I personally don't even want to think about the course and stuff. But I know I'm going to need to do so soon as I need to spend some time practicing on her with her new 'quirk'. And I want to practice traveling on a road that'll lead to one of the towns down south so I can meet up with some other Buddy/scooter enthusiasts. But I've just now reached a point where I can actually think about it and talk about it…(as long as certain not-so-smart people keep their mouths shut, heh)

And so, that, my friends, was my msf experience.
I wasn't kicked out…but I did walk out after almost four hours of range time.

Things I learned:
Use a scooter for the class if you're going to be riding a scooter.
Use a mc for the class if you're going to be riding an mc.
For some people, the weekend format won't work. Different strokes for different folks. And there's nothing wrong with that, despite what some people here might think.
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
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merlin
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Post by merlin »

Can we get some cliff notes?
n00b4life
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Post by n00b4life »

Wow.

I can definitely empathize, especially after reading all that. Take things at your own pace.

My wife gets migraines, sometimes horrible, emergency room visit inducing migraines, if she overheats.

I'll tell you what I told her, for what it is worth. There are people waiting in line to get their hands on these scooters. Just because you've got one, don't feel pressure to keep it or ride it if it isn't working for you. Someone will be happy to take it off your hands.

Not that I want her (or you) to get rid of the scooter, but I know that these kinds of things can snowball if things are going one way and you have convinced yourself that the NEED to go another way.
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brape
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Post by brape »

If you download the guide to the practice exersises you can practice the course ahead of time. I took it over two weeks so and was pushed to my limit both days on the bikes.
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polianarchy
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Post by polianarchy »

Perhaps you can retake the course at another time? With a different instructor, even. Best of luck to you!
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brettro
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Post by brettro »

The WA MSF course test exercises consist of u-turns inside a box, swerving, panic stop, and cornering. From what I understand, the DOL test includes those exercises plus more.

Imho, you should find a big parking lot and take your time practicing the exercises (generously linked by brape, above) at your own pace. Then, when you're comfortable, retake the class on your scoot. I think that'd be a better choice than the DOL test.

And what your instructor meant by "let him do the thinking and just DO" is that they are trying to get you to build muscle memory. The point is to ingrain those techniques and movements so that you don't have to consciously think through each individual motion: "roll off throttle, squeeze clutch, shift gear, release clutch, roll on throttle". It becomes one fluid subconscious action. With your conscious memory freed up, you can focus on identifying and avoiding hazards.
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Sumosamurai
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Post by Sumosamurai »

anndelise, what you experienced sounds similar to a panic attack. I suffer anxiety disorder and am quite familar with how you felt, if not to that extreme.
"Everybody wants to ride a buddy...Scooter"
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Dooglas
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Post by Dooglas »

Have you considered that perhaps scooters / motorcycles are just not for you? You just did an interesting, and very extensive, job of explaining how your thought processes and reactions aren't meshing very well with what it takes to safely ride a scooter or motorcycle. It does not seem to me that just taking a shot at the state exam really deals with the difficulties you are having.
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AxeYrCat
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Post by AxeYrCat »

Wow...

Well, you did the reasonable and responsible thing.



And if it makes you feel any better at all: Though I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a particularly seasoned rider, it's still pretty strange to switch from a motorcycle to a scooter. :wink:



You'll ultimately have to decide if you want to get back on the horse or if the horse just ain't for you.

Further, while I want nothing more to encourage you and your riding, I do want to mention this: you'll have to figure out if you'll be able to ride after an idiot in an automobile of one sort or another cuts you off, pulls out in front of you, or generally does something asinine along those lines. You'll also have to figure out if you'll be able to react the way you want to in those situations, even if your brain is as distracted as it can be.


Again, I want nothing more than to nurture your riding, but I don't want to do that at potential risk to you or to anyone else on the road. :wink:
Huh? What just happened?
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anndelise
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Post by anndelise »

I appreciate the responses.

I just wanted to note that
a) I'm not getting rid of Buggy, I just don't have my mc license yet, just a permit, heh. But I will be working towards getting it one way or the other, with or without the msf course. Not because I feel a need to, but because I want to. I do enjoy riding her. I just wouldn't be pushing myself into 4-5+ hours of intense riding doing new stuff. heh.

b) I have already been and will continue to practice riding her and studying the strategies and such from the books I have. I've even got a few dots painted on the street in front of my place to mark where the cones go for the exercise from the riding tips pdfs. out of 230 something miles about 40 of those are from practicing, the rest is 5 1/2 round trips to/from town.

c) I have absolutely no complaint about the instructors, nor the exercises themselves. My only thing is that for myself, I'd go probably no more than 2-3 hours of riding range at a time. That would be enough for learning some new skills, and giving the brain some time to make the connections without confusing it. Another good option would be about 2 hours of riding time, followed by 2 hours of class time, followed by another 2 hours of riding time. This would give a more ideal time frame for engraining the muscle memory and brain connections required.

d) It's not practice makes perfect..but perfect practice makes perfect. If a person isn't practicing the proper technique, then they aren't building proper muscle memory. Combine that with having muscle memory designed for scooter controls being used on something that has different controls, and there is going to be some confusion. For example, on the scooter the feet are on a floorboard with no controls around them. On the mc the right foot activates the rear brake. It takes time to get the foot to remember that it's supposed to be activating the rear brake when it's 'memory' is to be on the floor board. Pulling in the clutch lever when your muscles have learned that that is supposed to activate the rear brake causes confusion in the system because parts of the system aren't responding 'properly'. And yes, I recognize that many people can quickly overcome this confusion, or don't even develop this confusion. And I admire that to be honest. (jealous more like, lol) But for myself, in a learning situation that requires physical skills and muscle memory, then I, personally, need something that allows me more time.


If MSF had a course that spread that time out over 5-7 days or so, with no more than 3-4 hours of riding on any one day, then I'd likely take it again using the scooter. But I'm not particularly attracted to another full weekend like that.

I honestly don't know right now whether I'll retake the msf course using my scoot...or just practice until I feel ready for the DOL test. I do know that even before my msf course started, I had lost my fear of taking the DOL test. (But that doesn't mean I feel ready to go out right now and take it, hehehe.)

But I did want to post my experience possibly for the benefit of those who didnt pass the msf course, were kicked out, left it, whatever, for whatever reasons. There are different types of people, different levels on certain abilities, different ways of learning, and one method doesn't necessarily work for everyone, for even differing reasons. And, to reiterate that there is nothing wrong with this.
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
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anndelise
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Post by anndelise »

there were some new posts while I was writing up my previous one, so I'll respond to the new ones here:


sumosamurai (I hope i spelled that right), I do have a history of anxiety disorders, panic attacks, and ptsd. But this particular case was just a matter of a brain that wants to resolve problems...with or without me, lol. The anxiety stuff only come out in certain types of situations (triggers), of which this wasn't anything like that. Thank you though, for offering that possibility as for some people, I can easily see that as being a good possiblity.


AxeYrCat, I actually don't have any issues with responding in emergency situations. I actually respond better in emergencies than in doing repetitive work. When doing repetitive work my brain gets itself active by creating what if scenarios, stories, or problem solving situations. In an emergency, the situation is there, at hand, and since my brain already moves so fast, I'm also able to respond quickly. In such situations, any mistakes made are held off until after the situation is over, and then it'll bombard me for days running the scenario through to see how things could have gone differently, changed differently, responded to differently, etc. Then, if the situation ever happens again, that information and those links are already there to pull from the next time. But it does need that time after the situation to go over it. If that time's not given (like it wasn't during the course) then it just becomes a mass accumulating to a peak and there's only so much any person's brain can take, heh.

And as I said (somewhere in that first post, lol), my brain actually enjoys riding because of the scanning for the risk factors and preparing to respond. It's like a playground for my brain. :roll:

I see no issues with my ability to ride under 'normal' conditions.
Under normal conditions *I* get to choose when I ride and when I don't. Under normal conditions *I* get to choose when I want to take a break and how long that break will be.
Under normal conditions *I* get to choose how long I will ride, and where I ride to, and which route I'll take, and how much controllable stress I'm willing to ride under, etc.
No, I don't get to choose what the surfaces or weather will be like, nor the traffic nor other people's responses, nor which emergencies will pop up. But the other stuff I can control, which I don't get to control in a classrange setting.

I will be back on the horse, I just needed a few days to recover from the course situation. And I'm pretty sure that it'll be a long long time before I try to ride an mc again, :lol: automatic scooter? no problem. clutches and shifting and 'odd' braking controls? uh...i'll pass for now. :D


As for Dooglas...obviously you either didn't read what I wrote (yes it was a lot) or you didn't understand what I wrote. Try again..or not, I don't care.
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
Sparky
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Post by Sparky »

I am probably notorious at my riding school for being the Worst Student Ever. Several times I got off the practise motorcycle and rode away on my Vino 50 in a blaze of anger and frustration.

In my case, it was a combination of unfamiliarity (manual transmissions) and a short fuse. I had been riding for a while on a moped-class scooter. I had developed skills based on road experience and studying the required study materials for my 'ped license. So I figured dealing with a little thing like a manual clutch would be a minor hurdle.

Er.

I consistently had problems with friction zones and stalling out the practise cycles. This subconsciously made me think that such devices were unreliable. I was *scared* of the manual transmission--envisioning my incompetence causing a humiliating failure due to stalling more than once. This was also compounded by the fact I was paying not an inconsiderable amount of money for the motorcycle course. The actual two hour road ride that finished the course was a nightmare as I stalled, ground gears, and screamed at the idiot who designed the Buell Blast. I damn near walked the thing two blocks back to the test area until the instructors threatened to fail me for not riding it back in.

I failed the first closed course test by crashing because they switched the test model with one I wasn't used to. A month of constant practise and additional $$$$ finally netted me my provisional license. Since then I have never, ever touched a manual transmission bike again. The bitterness was enough that for years I considered such vehicles an abomination on the face of the earth.

Think of it this way: you learned a variety of lessons in the course that will serve you well when riding on your permit. Half a lesson is better than none. Find a local riding club or rider willing to teach you the rest of the skills, or offer one of the MSF instructors a fee for private lessons.
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Leeroy Jenkins
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Post by Leeroy Jenkins »

Sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience. I hope if I were one of your intructors, things could have gone better for ya. I wish you could have been in one of my classes. We allow BRC students to ride motorcycles or honda metros.

www.learntoride.org

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Dooglas
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Post by Dooglas »

anndelise wrote:
As for Dooglas...obviously you either didn't read what I wrote (yes it was a lot) or you didn't understand what I wrote. Try again..or not, I don't care.
Actually, I read your post here very carefully. I also read your posts in the crash string and your posts about your scoot behaving "strangely" on curves. Do I understand where you are coming from? Probably not entirely. Am I concerned about the difficulties you are having with your scoot? Sure, the whole point of this site is for each of us to share experiences and try to help one another where possible.
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Post by AxeYrCat »

anndelise wrote:AxeYrCat, I actually don't have any issues with responding in emergency situations. I actually respond better in emergencies than in doing repetitive work. When doing repetitive work my brain gets itself active by creating what if scenarios, stories, or problem solving situations.

I absolutely understand that. And as someone with a relatively overactive melon, I definitely know the symptoms that you describe (though I think I experience them to a very minor extent by comparison)... I guess that's sort of my concern: AFTER those situations, not necessarily during them, I end up in 'WTF was up with THAT [expletive deleted]?!' mode, pondering if he or she understood the impact (pardon the relatively unthinkable pun) of what could have happened... And it's during those *distracted* times following those close calls (which can sometimes be numerous and frequent) that I wonder how your melon might react.


You know your limits better than anyone else, and it seems pretty clear to me that you respect them.

I'm just throwin' all of this out there hoping that it's never something that we ever even need discuss — just like when we talk safety gear. :D 8) :wink:
Huh? What just happened?
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Post by olhogrider »

WOW! Sorry my eyes glazed over and I couldn't finish the report. I am more the slow, simple-minded type. I used to teach people to fly. I only had to tell one student that flying was not for him. I found that people learn at their own pace. Perhaps the MSF course was not your pace. Some places let you use your own bike. Others have scooters. These may not be option in your area. Read as much as you can about the physics of two-wheelers. Practice at your local DMV on Sundays when they are closed. Watch others taking the test. Try to learn from their attempts. Don't overthink it! This is suipposed to be FUN!

I still think most, not all people can benefit from good instruction. I learned by "trial and error" back in the Stone Age when that was the only option. I did take the Experienced Rider course many years later and learned a lot. Good Luck!
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Post by anndelise »

sparky wrote:So I figured dealing with a little thing like a manual clutch would be a minor hurdle.

Er.
:lol: yep. I had been practicing the skills alot so that when I took the course I'd only have to focus on the difference in controls. From now on I'll be one of those people who's say 'you're taking the course to get a license to drive your scooter? i suggest you use your scooter during the course.'

There were at least two people who left before me. And two people who were close to leaving by the time I'd left. The first I think had an anger management issue, she was cool, interesting, but I think she didn't like people telling her what to do. She left really quickly...like, the exercise right after the powerwalking part, where we powerwalk a few steps and then actually put our feet up on the pegs. The second was a guy who had rode in on his own motorcycle, a really nice set up too. He'd been riding for years. I have no idea why he left. In my portion of the class there was another girl who was in near tears. She was having problems with the timing of the clutch and throttle and kept stalling out. The instructor kept telling her that she was doing pretty much exactly what absolute beginners do. But she really really needed a chance to let out some tension. I hope she got that at lunch and kept going. It sux that I'll never know. :( There was one other person, a guy, who seemed to have a "i'll do whatever i wanna do" attitude that wasn't clicking well with the instructors, and kept leading him to start before the start signal, etc. I dunno if they'd have kicked him out eventually or not.

I was actually wondering about hiring one of the instructors for private lessons. But that wouldn't cover the testing aspect. But still, it is an option. Getting some one-on-one or even three-on-one coaching would be awesome, because then I could go at my own pace instead of being forced to move ahead before getting that one issue resolved. But i still don't want to learn an mc for a loooong while, :lol:.


Leeroy, I'm sure you're a good instructor, but I actually have no complaints about the two instructors I had. I do laugh at the concept of "don't think, let me do the thinking for you" even though I know what they intend, the practice of it is just so foreign to me, heeheh. But seriously, they were good guys, weren't going to baby anyone, but were willing to answer questions and give encouragement when needed. And unless they had a clue where I was at mentally, it's not like there was anything they could have done. If ya don't know what's broke..nor that anything is broken at all, you can't fix it. So I have absolutely no blame on these guys. (I just don't like the weekend style program.)

Also, I did have the option of riding my scooter. I had a thread a while back asking if I should use my scooter or an mc for the course. I got both answers on the thread..and irl. I had initially signed up to use my scooter, then changed to the mc because I figured I'd like to learn the mc controls. This whole thing could have been mostly, if not all, avoided had I used my own scooter from the start.


AxeYrCat, overactive melons unite!! :lol:
self preservation is strong in me, so after such an incident I feel comfortable that I wouldn't have a melt down until AFTER i got home and the adrenaline fully died down. And if I didnt' feel I could ride afterwards, I have no problems pushing the scoot or just laying down on a sidewalk until my OH comes by with the van to load Buggy in and take us home. HE may not be happy, but I'd be safe, heh.


olhogrider, sorry about your eyes, I should have put some kind of warning at the beginning of the thread. (wish we had a smilie like :shock: but with dizzy eyes, that could be my warning... :oops:)
I've got a mini range in front of my house that I practice the msf riding tips stuff on..and the state test stuff (almost the same things). So for practicing I can continue at my own pace. Though I still like the idea of hiring one of the coaches for some private lessons. Even though I've been practicing on my own, I'd still like some first hand feedback from someone in the know. I'll probably check that out next week to see if it's even an option. I have to say though, mc riders get a lot more respect from me than they had before.
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
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Post by Quo Vadimus »

anndelise, you've probably already done so, but just in case you haven't, be sure to check around. In my area there are two places to take the MSF course. One only offers weekends, one offers weekends OR a weeklong course that seems much less grueling. I've often wondered how ANYone makes it through the 12 or 15 or whatever-hour days they require of you for the weekend course.

(yes, all you nannies out there, I promise to take it. Soon.)

And hey, if you want to come to Ann Arbor to take your MSF, ring me up, I know the best post-class stress-relief liquid-dispensing locations!

QV
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Post by MarkTur »

Dooglas wrote:Have you considered that perhaps scooters / motorcycles are just not for you? You just did an interesting, and very extensive, job of explaining how your thought processes and reactions aren't meshing very well with what it takes to safely ride a scooter or motorcycle. It does not seem to me that just taking a shot at the state exam really deals with the difficulties you are having.
I have to agree...you need to be confident and sharp at all times on two wheels. You sound like an accident waiting to happen - no offense, but you are.

Some people can see a cliff and steer away from it; you, my friend, will be drawn to it, and will freeze and ride over the edge. Stay on 4 wheels, or better yet, ride your bicycle and don't endanger yourself or others.

This is not intended as an insult, but hopefully a good push in the right direction (for you). Be safe, sell it.
Cya!
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Post by anndelise »

MarkTur wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Have you considered that perhaps scooters / motorcycles are just not for you? You just did an interesting, and very extensive, job of explaining how your thought processes and reactions aren't meshing very well with what it takes to safely ride a scooter or motorcycle. It does not seem to me that just taking a shot at the state exam really deals with the difficulties you are having.
I have to agree...you need to be confident and sharp at all times on two wheels. You sound like an accident waiting to happen - no offense, but you are.

Some people can see a cliff and steer away from it; you, my friend, will be drawn to it, and will freeze and ride over the edge. Stay on 4 wheels, or better yet, ride your bicycle and don't endanger yourself or others.

This is not intended as an insult, but hopefully a good push in the right direction (for you). Be safe, sell it.
It was precisely stupid comments like these that had me waiting so long before I felt ready to post. I wanted to reduce the chances of telling responses like this where to shove it.

Your comments show clearly that either you too didn’t read the full thing (it was long) or didn’t understand it even though you may think you did..or possibly worse, you have very poor reasoning skills (hopefully it's not this). Perhaps you can explain to me how you came to this equation…

Being unsure the very first time on a motorcycle and wanting to spend an extra 10-15 minutes working out the control differences between the mc and the scooter specifically regarding mc stopping controls equates to
a) not ever being confident nor sharp on an automatic scooter.
b) an accident waiting to happen on an automatic scooter.
c) steering towards a cliff, freezing up, and riding over the edge
d) being a danger to self and others

The fact of the matter is, a classrange setting is NOT real life. This should be obvious.

A classrange setting is set up with specific time limits for each exercise and does not allow a student to spend any extra minutes, even a measly 10 minutes, to work out one—specific—skill. In real life practices, if a learner makes a mistake in a practice session, they can spend an extra 10 minutes or however else long they want to work on something they want to improve. Going out on the road without that skill is a different story altogether. I would never be stupid enough to go out on the road on an mc without first taking the time to make sure that I wasn’t confused by the control differences, nor without making sure that I could stop in such way that *I*, at least, felt comfortable with. And this makes me a danger??

I obviously expect more from myself than even the coaches did. *I* wanted to spend another 10 minutes to work out the control differences, specifically the stopping distances. But the coaches felt that *I* was doing good, THEY moved me up in the exercises, and THEY didn’t want me to give up on riding. THEY felt that I could ride, and THEY were surprised when I said ‘no, I need some more time on this’. THEY assured me that it’s common for people to get confused with the mc controls after riding an automatic scooter for a while. Yet you, in all your prowess, know better than them and think that it shouldn’t ever be an issue? That one should be confident and uncritical even on one’s very first time on an mc? on using completely different controls? Wtf??


As for the overactive mind thing…it’s only an issue in certain situations. It’s a damned good asset in others, such as scanning and evaluating the environment for risk factors… and you can’t even recognize that?


Please, do us and everyone else a favor, never ever even consider teaching/coaching someone on how to ride a scooter/mc. This is not intended as an insult, but hopefully a good push away from the wrong direction (for you). :roll:



(apparently I didn't wait long enough :lol: )
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
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Post by MarkTur »

Please don't misunderstand -- I FEEL for this person. But there's a big difference between "playing ball" and taking unnecessary risks on the road.

The road is PRESSURE. Pressure to watch everything at the same time - make sure cars are not going to kill you, make sure you don't run your front wheel into potholes, make sure you don't hurt or kill pedestrians and animals, and a whole slew of other dangers that you had better have a clear mind for AT ALL TIMES. Not just some of the time. Not just on the days that you "feel good". ALL OF THE TIME - ALL CONDITIONS.

Believe it or not, I *do* coach children's sports, and I'm a good coach with emphasis on teamwork and "everyone plays equal amounts of time no matter how good or bad their baskeball skills are"....EVERYONE PLAYS. It's a game, BUT they're on a court in a controlled environment.

BIG DIFFERENCE COMPARED BEING ON THE ROAD WHEN YOU'RE A DANGER TO YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE AROUND YOU.

Get past your emotions and THINK about what was said in the initial long post...he admitted to not being stable, he admitted that he has trouble comprehending the correct controls, and he admits that he is shaken up to the point of a grown man crying and not being able to remember the CRITICAL ELEMENTS to riding safely. HE CANNOT RIDE COMPETENTLY ENOUGH FOR LICENSING. PERIOD. That means the state says you cannot ride...

Your attitude of "lets be real nice and feel bad for him" will help create a lot of pressure and false confidence to continue doing something he is obviously terrified of. How many people do YOU know that bought a $3000+ scooter and didn't ride it for days after bringing it home?

Read the signs - he's scared, not clear, and doesn't really want to be riding. Don't push him into dangerous situations for both him and others because you feel bad for him. I do to. But my advice taken, and he lives to be an old man...

Again, no offense intended, but I still stand by my OPINION that he should not persue scootering. Please don't hate me for giving my honest opinion.
Cya!
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Post by pretz_ruck »

MarkTur wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Have you considered that perhaps scooters / motorcycles are just not for you? You just did an interesting, and very extensive, job of explaining how your thought processes and reactions aren't meshing very well with what it takes to safely ride a scooter or motorcycle. It does not seem to me that just taking a shot at the state exam really deals with the difficulties you are having.
I have to agree...you need to be confident and sharp at all times on two wheels. You sound like an accident waiting to happen - no offense, but you are.

Some people can see a cliff and steer away from it; you, my friend, will be drawn to it, and will freeze and ride over the edge. Stay on 4 wheels, or better yet, ride your bicycle and don't endanger yourself or others.

This is not intended as an insult, but hopefully a good push in the right direction (for you). Be safe, sell it.
I agree with the above....if you over think it you will get hurt....if you dont think enough you will get hurt. If you are having this much trouble it just does not seem to me like you would feel safe on 2 wheels. This is only my opinion and you should do what ever feels right for you, i am only offering this up because you posted... and why else would you post if you were not looking for some input
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Post by BigColdMartini »

anndelise,

I must say that I agree with MarkTur, Dooglas and Pretz_ruck. You very eloquently presented your concerns in your initial post and then became defensive when others posted a response that didn't fit with the answers you were wanting. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm almost certain that others were feeling the same way but just posted encouraging responses to keep your spirits up. That's all well and good but someone has to be the adult and give you a more pragmatic response.

You need to really ask yourself if two wheels are for you. I don't want you getting hurt (or hurting someone I love) just so you can prove something to yourself. You stated that you enjoy riding under 'Normal' conditions where you get to pick and choose when you do certain things. I hate to disappoint you but I've never in all my years of driving all kinds of vehicles and flying all types of aircraft encountered 'Normal' conditions. There may be times when I can relax a little more than usual but I'm always ready for the abnormal emergency to present itself. Mastering the basics is about as normal as one can get. Our flight instructors beat us up on mastering the basics and that made us better pilots in the long run.

I wish you the best, but you really need to view the bigger picture of everyones safety... including your own. There is absolutely no anger or animosity in this post and I hope things go well for you in the future.
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Post by lobsterman »

anndelise wrote:It was precisely stupid comments like these that had me waiting so long before I felt ready to post. I wanted to reduce the chances of telling responses like this where to shove it.

Your comments show clearly that either you too didn’t read the full thing (it was long) or didn’t understand it even though you may think you did..or possibly worse, you have very poor reasoning skills (hopefully it's not this). Perhaps you can explain to me how you came to this equation…
I read the whole thing, and I can relate to some of the overactive brain thing, without help I am a serious insomniac.

Two comments though, anndelise.

First, you won't gain any sympathy by attacking folks that assess the situation differently than you do and calling their comments stupid. Plenty of very intelligent people disagree about all kinds of things.

Second, there is no shame in deciding that riding isn't for you. Maybe it is or isn't for you, I'm not in a position to judge. In the limited information I have from this thread, it sounds to me like you'd be wise to give it up.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide.
Kevin
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Post by anndelise »

Regarding "All the time, All the conditions" and "'Normal' conditions".
'Normal conditions' referred specifically only to deciding when I want to ride, when I want to stop riding, when I want to take a break, Do I want to ride in the rain today or not? Do I want to take the curvy road or the straight road? Do I want to ride into town or just the neighborhood, or just do some front yard practice? And if ever needed, do I call OH to come pick me and scoot up in the van? Those kinds of things are what was specifically referred to in regards to 'normal conditions'. Applying it to other things in this case is meaningless, period.

As for the overactive mind while actually riding on the roads, there is no problem with that here. Scanning the environment around me and evaluating potential risks and useful strategies is a continual process, it is an active process, it's a process that my brain loves. If I were to describe the feeling as I did in the first post, I'd say that while riding it's the few times when I'm IN the world and not in my brain, meaning that I'm THERE and not off in la-la land, that I'm AWARE of what's going on in front of me, to the sides of me, behind me, and also feeling the responses of the scooter. My brain enjoys the activity. I would describe it as my finally getting some peace and quiet, but many of you would interpret that the wrong way too. All I can say is, that while riding, my brain does NOT get into my way. In fact, it gets what it craves. And what I described in the first post dealt nothing with this, so all comments regarding this don't apply, period.

Someone here seems to think that I posted this thread because I wanted certain types of responses regarding my 'concerns'. First of all, I posted this thread because I wanted to let other people who are considering taking the course, or felt nervous and unsure during their course, or didn't pass the course for whatever reason, and even people who sit behind their computers and judge and laugh at people who didn't pass the course for whatever reason, to know that there ARE a variety of reasons and that the classrange format of 4-5+ hours learning something new, learning new controls, etc is NOT for EVERYone. Sure, some people shouldn't be on the road, period. Some shouldn't be on two wheels. Some shouldn't be on anything with a motor. But just because a person didn't pass the msf course, or walked out, doesn't mean that they can't ride at all. The msf course isn't good enough to cover all types of individuals. It's aimed at the norms. And a lot of good people (I'm not necessarily saying that I'm good, lol), a lot of good people can easily fall through the msf cracks. Not because of the exercises, but because of the classrange format. (though I do think that a 5 day/week format would be better for more people than the weekend course, unless one is time-challenged and needs it all done during the weekend.). And just because a person passes the msf class…doesn't automatically mean that they are good/safe riders. The msf class isn't that freakin powerful.

The only real issue, that snowballed everything, was because I wanted to spend about 10, maybe 15 minutes of my time working specifically on getting my right foot to get active on the mc control. On my scooter, I don't activate a right foot control, period. It wouldn't have taken long to get that situated in my head. But the msf classrange format does not allow for anything like that. They have a set schedule and all students must abide by that schedule, period. Had I gotten that 10 minutes, there would have been nothing left to distract my brain aside from whatever new skill we were being taught. All my focus would have gone to those newer skills. The one clutch issue revolved around the braking issue, which all revolved around the control differences between mc and scooter, period. One basic issue which would have been resolved in 10-15 minutes, period.

Turning that one specific, solvable, common issue into 'sell your scoot', 'you're a menace on the roads', 'you'll never be safe', etc is what I refer to as "overactive imaginations".

How could something like this be avoided in the msf course??
If you ride your scooter already, and have become even somewhat familiar with the controls, then try to use your scooter for the msf course, period. Otherwise you risk getting the controls confused, which leads to a set of problems that you wouldn't have had to deal with if you were using your scooter.
If you ride an mc already, and are familiar with the mc controls, then use their mcs.
If you have never even touched a two wheeler, and have no familiarity at all with any types of controls of a two wheeler, then there's nothing in your brain/muscles to get confused on, so either mc or scooter will work for you. If you want the challenge of the mc control coordination, then choose mc. If you want something less confusing where you can spend most your attention on the actual skills, then choose a scooter.
No one answer is right for everyone.


Pretz_ruck, "this much trouble" again only referred to the differences regarding mc and scooter stopping controls. Familiarity with the scooter stopping controls and learning how much play and how fast I can safely stop/slow does not equate to automatically catching on to using different controls for the same thing. It's a solvable issue. Also, I posted not looking for input, but to let other people who didn't like the msf course format, or didn't pass it, or walked out on it, or are trying to decide which machine to use for the course (mc or scooter)…I posted to offer them another view. A number of people on this forum don't want to post their negative experiences with the course format, or their own currently lacking skills. Why? Because it seems that we're supposed to treat the msf course as if it's the end-all-be-all of mc/scooter learning, OR, because of too-quick-to-judge people who don't take the time to grasp the essence of a person's particular situation. (note, I only posted this part because you asked why else would I post if I weren't looking for some input :) )

BigColdMartini, I did not sense any anger nor animosity in your post, thank you. I do believe that you did not quite understand what I was referring to regarding 'normal conditions'. Under your interpretation I would normally agree with you. But what was said/meant and how it was interpreted here don't match up. But no, I didn't sense any anger/animosity from you.

Lobsterman, I'm not looking to gain sympathy, but I do expect people to grasp the written word (though, lol, grasping what I write and getting my meaning from it isn't particularly easy, I know :) ). And it wasn't folks that I 'attacked', it was one particular individual's comments. I don't feel that there is shame in deciding that one's self isn't meant to ride. I also don't feel that because of one solvable and common issue that that somehow means that I should never ride. I did admit however, that it'll be a looooong time, if ever, before I even consider riding an mc. There's not enough motivation for me, heh. But deciding not to ride an mc doesn't mean that one shouldn't/can't ride a scooter. Different machines, similar methods of riding, different set of controls. (oh, and what does AYPWIP mean?)
The scootering section of my blog: http://anndelise.wordpress.com/category/scootering/
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Private Instructor

Post by rickko »

Hire a private instructor and learn at your own pace. You might have to advertise for one or look on the internet.

Or, approach one of the MSF instructors and offer to hire him/her privately.

Or, go to the DMV and ask a Test-giver if they know of any private instruction opportunities in your area.

..rickko..
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Re: Private Instructor

Post by Buddy Visitor »

rickko wrote:Hire a private instructor and learn at your own pace. You might have to advertise for one or look on the internet.

Or, approach one of the MSF instructors and offer to hire him/her privately.

Or, go to the DMV and ask a Test-giver if they know of any private instruction opportunities in your area.

..rickko..
I agree. You do need someone who will give you more time, without the pressure of others around you. In the end, however, you still need to pass the DMV rider's test. Better do it at a school, rather than at a DMV parking lot that is totally alien to you.

In the end, as what is being drilled into our heads since day one, riding a scooter or motorcycle involves the assessment of risks. All the comments here (either encouraging or discouraging) deal with our assessment of the issues that you presented to us. At least we understand a bit, most cagers won't even have you on their radar.
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Post by cabingirl »

I walked out of an MSF course last year, myself. In my case, I didn't have the confidence to transition from power walking to feet on the pegs. I left when the instructors told me that they didn't have time to work with me because they had to keep the class moving. I can respect that. The truth is that there isn't much room in the course schedule to deal with one person who is struggling. That's just an issue with their format, and it sucks for those of us who didn't realize they would have trouble until they actually got there and now have to take it all over again, but it works for most, so I guess that's why they keep doing it that way.

I don't believe that one failure on the MSF course has to mean "you'll never be a safe rider, just give up now." But it does mean something. It might mean "I learn differently" or it might mean "this is not for me." So, you find another way to learn and see if things improve. However, it might be that this isn't your thing. I am learning slowly on my Buddy 50 and I may also have to decide that it's not my thing. I can understand not wanting to admit that, but ultimately if it's not fun, or if it's downright scary, then why bother?
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Post by lobsterman »

anndelise wrote:Lobsterman, I'm not looking to gain sympathy, but I do expect people to grasp the written word (though, lol, grasping what I write and getting my meaning from it isn't particularly easy, I know :) ). And it wasn't folks that I 'attacked', it was one particular individual's comments. I don't feel that there is shame in deciding that one's self isn't meant to ride. I also don't feel that because of one solvable and common issue that that somehow means that I should never ride. I did admit however, that it'll be a looooong time, if ever, before I even consider riding an mc. There's not enough motivation for me, heh. But deciding not to ride an mc doesn't mean that one shouldn't/can't ride a scooter. Different machines, similar methods of riding, different set of controls. (oh, and what does AYPWIP mean?)
Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "sympathy" there... as you said the written word can fail, not the least because there are no auditory or visual clues to the context. I meant that you won't convince anyone you are right by saying their comment is stupid. I used "folks" in the sense of "one or more persons participating in this forum".

As for riding a scooter in the MSF class, I have long been an advocate of that myself, if a scooter is what you'll be riding in real life.

I don't think you left the MSF because of the instructor, who I think sounded like he was pretty good really and was trying to encourage you. Sounds to me like it wasn't good time and conditions for you and you did what you felt you needed to do, which I think was wise. Know your own limits. It may well be that you could do it OK on another day or combination of days.

Regarding making choices about when and where to ride and under what conditions, well, you can't always control that. Freak storms pop up while you are on your way home, people get in accidents on the road in front of you and you find yourself detoured, road construction appears where it wasn't yesterday, etc. You get the picture I am sure. As you said, you can always choose to pull off the road and phone for backup. Deciding when not to ride is part of the deal when you are a rider.

AYPWIP means "Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?" and is from the brilliant "Pinky and the Brain" animated series. As someone with an overactive brain, you may appreciate their song about the parts of the brain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk

I hope it all works out for you in your decision to ride and that you find you can ride safely and with great enjoyment.
Kevin
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Post by scullyfu »

anndelise wrote:First of all, I posted this thread because I wanted to let other people who are considering taking the course, or felt nervous and unsure during their course, or didn't pass the course for whatever reason, and even people who sit behind their computers and judge and laugh at people who didn't pass the course for whatever reason,
okay, i've got to comment on this remark. i have been on mb for well over a year now and i don't recall anyone ever doing what you implied in the part i made bold.

to the contrary, i've only seen empathy and encouragement from the mb community.
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Post by anndelise »

scullyfu, sorry, that 'and' should have been an 'or'.
Also, while I have seen judgments on here, and I've read less than a handful of posts of people laughing at some student that was in their msf class who didn't make it or 'shouldn't' have made it, I have never ever read anyone here directly laughing at anyone else on here. Honestly, I don't think that someone who could do that could even survive this forum. :lol:
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Post by anndelise »

n00b4life wrote:I think you're on the right track.

You saw that things weren't going well and you stopped. Now, you're looking at alternatives. While I would agree that you aren't ready to ride in the real world today, I don't recall reading that you thought otherwise and I never got the impression that you were likely to ride before you knew what you were doing (unlike many new riders).

So, I still say take it at your own pace and don't pressure yourself (not that you were, I'm just saying...).
actually i do ride my scooter (not an mc) and was riding it before the msf class. i don't ride much, however. there's no local grocery store here to make quick runs to nor anything like that. the nearest store-ish thing is a gas station two blocks away (not worth the hassle of unlocking and uncovering Buggy). From there it's another 5-7 miles to the closest 3 other gas stations. and then at least 17.5 miles to the edge of either of two towns. So, 18 miles on mostly 50mph roads to get to the nearest grocery run.?? :shock: ........ :lol: Needless to say, I've only made 5 1/2 trips into town, total.
(note: the half was because the dealer kept Buggy overnight for the oil change and first maintenance, since I couldn't get into town, I had my OH take my van into work so he could pick her up on the way home)

Yeah, I take my time, not pressuring myself to jump ahead of where I feel confident, yet slowly increasing my skills. I spend a lot of time on the street in front of my house, even have a little course type thing set up (premeasured dots made for showing where to set up the cones). I'll also practice my turns and intersection skills by riding around the small community. For soft curves and faster than 20mph practices I use a relatively isolated curvy road that's not too far to get to. It's actually a good practice road for 35mph and curves (not twists), it's not totally isolated because there's actually an mc shop in the middle of it.

The main 50mph road isn't as scary to me as it used to be, but I'm still hesitant to ride it..which of course means so few trips into town so far. I look forward to the day when I feel comfortable with my skills enough to travel to two of those gas station stores a couple of times a week, heh. From there it's not a bad trip into town, just kinda long. Gotta watch out for deer though. And certainly don't drive the main 50mph road on weekends nor evenings, lol. But seriously, with time and practice will come the experience.



this part doesn't refer to n00b4life:
(note to those who think "i'm still hesitant to ride it" means I'm all nervous and jumpy and confused and such on it, wrong. It means that I'm hesitant to decide to ride it unless I'm willing to take the possible risks involved in riding it. Part of the decision to ride involves acknowledging and accepting known and unknown risks, sudden changes, risk of errors, and awareness and acknowledgment of personal skills/strategies levels/limits.)
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Post by Sumosamurai »

I have to agree with several others, I don't get what you're asking, or whether your asking something, or whether you are seeking validatioin on something...this is all very confusing. My head hurts.
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Post by sunshinen »

anndelise wrote:I'm not looking to gain sympathy, but I do expect people to grasp the written word (though, lol, grasping what I write and getting my meaning from it isn't particularly easy, I know :)
Well, it seems a large part of what you are asking people to do is understand how your brain works — which we can't. ... All men are islands and what not. :)

You've described a very complicated scenario for us to digest and interpret, and no matter how well you explain it, most people will have a hard time understanding/seeing how someone else experiences the world if it is different from how they experience the world. We can try. We can come close. But much of our empathy comes from our own experiences. We latch on to things we recognize and miss things we don't. So some of us will get it and some of us won't. It's not that people aren't empathetic or intelligent or caring... they just don't have a similar enough experience to draw on to help them truly understand.

Everyone learns differently, and as you and others have stated, the MSF course doesn't seem to fit your learning style. No big deal. There are other ways to learn. Pick up Proficient Motorcycling (I've forgotten if you mentioned doing that already) and teach yourself at your pace. It's a great book, and you will learn more than what you learn in the class if you actually put in the practice time.

As for those telling you to quit... I'd take the advice of the experts who have seen you ride (on something much more difficult to ride) and encouraged you to stick with it. Internet diagnoses are usually suspect at best. :wink:


----------------------

Edited to add: Here's an interesting article, "How Making Decisions Tires Your Brain," on why all of us are limited in our ability to make decisions. So if your brain is over anxious/active to begin with, it's probably more prone to melt down in a situation where you are learning lots of new things at a forced pace in an environment that is out of your control, where you can't let it rest and recover.

People drop out of MSF courses all the time, so you're not the first to be overwhelmed by the format. (And I have to say, it sounds like your instructors were having a particularly high rate of frustrated, melting-down students, so perhaps their class was particularly fast-paced.) I've read about individuals who had to take it 4 times before they made it all the way through and passed. Baby steps in what your brain can handle/absorb at once.
Last edited by sunshinen on Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sunshinen »

Sumosamurai wrote:I have to agree with several others, I don't get what you're asking, or whether your asking something, or whether you are seeking validatioin on something...this is all very confusing. My head hurts.
I think this falls under confessional/sharing an experience and lessons learned (summed up nicely at the bottom of the original post).
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Post by louie »

anndelise, lots of info here and leds me to several observations about myself and experiences.

i've got almost 2 years and 6000 miles since buying my scooter. recently i've thought of it as a chess game. i can't play the real game because there is too much time for interrpretations but on the scooter it's instant and works for me. does that make sense?

during the msc i noted more than 1 person who thought i should think twice before buying a bike, not the instructors but it was still a blow to my ego.

you eluded to this, the course does not teach you how to ride, it teaches you how to practice so you can learn. that goes for any kind of schooling.

i teach special ed to young adults with ld and borderline iq. you don't fit that catagory obviously. as a teacher i've learned that everyone learns at a different rate. schools, mostly, are set up to cater to the norm.
you get that.

i once taught at a private grammer school for regular kids. i wish i had gone to this school. it is an experiential, social studies based school (the westland school for those in LA). we had a 4th grader who was not reading. he was given time to learn at his own rate from the beginning (kindergarten). by the 5th grade he was reading at 11th grade level. he didn't miss any learning all those years because the school taught by giving many perspeptives and catered to the individual learning style. i wish all schools were like that, i certainly would have fared much better.
all that to say, do your own thing at your own rate. you know how you learn best.

I'd say practice in a nonthreatening area, a lot/often. if you can, take the course again when you're ready or take the test when you're ready, take the experienced course after about a year of riding and then a year after that.
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Post by purromaniac »

Hi anndelise,

As a person with a mental health history that began the day I was born, having overcome "toxic parenting" which caused depression, anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia, etc, etc, etc...I think I can relate to your story. My mind used to run like an express train without a station to be found. Your first post sounds like you have this problem too, being unable to stop the rambling thoughts in your head. I hope you are seeing a therapist. There are medicines that can help you think more clearly (Celexa is one), and if you are not sleeping well that certainly will affect you all day long also. I don't want to preach, but I find that my faith in God also gives me an inner peace and keeps me from worrying about things. I credit the combination of faith and therapy for the wonderful life I now live.

The MSF course is very tiring. I took the riding portion over three evenings, and they had Vespas for those who were going to ride scooters. It was still hard. But I sense that your problem is not with the course, but with your ability to hold yourself together and not freak out in difficult situations. I hope you do not put yourself and others in danger by riding until you get help for your mental disorder. I wish you well.
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Post by AmyNTX »

Wow your brain works alot like mine! especially the dreams.
I took my MSF course on a scooter..actually on a rukkus:) I loved it!

I also practiced with my husband..he has taken it before on a MC.
Maybe you can find someone in your area that has taken it..and you can practice a couple times a week until you feel comfortable?

I have a little booklet that they gave me that has the exercises marked out in it..do you want me to mail it to you?


Let me know!
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Post by anndelise »

AmyNTX wrote:Wow your brain works alot like mine! especially the dreams.
I took my MSF course on a scooter..actually on a rukkus:) I loved it!

I also practiced with my husband..he has taken it before on a MC.
Maybe you can find someone in your area that has taken it..and you can practice a couple times a week until you feel comfortable?

I have a little booklet that they gave me that has the exercises marked out in it..do you want me to mail it to you?


Let me know!
Is it the booklet that they use? Because I've been trying to find that online, heh. If it is, then definitely yes. If it's the Rider's Tips booklet that they have on their site's library...then I've already been using that. But yea, go ahead and send it to me and I can see if it's something I have or don't have. I'll PM you my email address.
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Post by Xena »

WOW...

My husband and I just took the MSF course a few weeks ago. In RI, there is no option to take the test on a scooter (yet). I had No clue how to ride a motorcycle.

On day 2, I thought I would zoom thru the last few hours and pass the test no problem and then I started to get frazzled. It was 90+ degrees, humid, and the test was an hour away and I knew what my weak points already were.

As I sat in line to practice the quick stopping, I started to feel the anxiety and tears were running down my face. It's my own stupid fault I let myself get that worked up over the whole thing.

I only lost 6 points in the test and did wicked better than I thought I would...

All in all, I would have loved to take it on a scooter which is what I will ride.
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Post by anndelise »

Xena wrote:WOW...

My husband and I just took the MSF course a few weeks ago. In RI, there is no option to take the test on a scooter (yet). I had No clue how to ride a motorcycle.

On day 2, I thought I would zoom thru the last few hours and pass the test no problem and then I started to get frazzled. It was 90+ degrees, humid, and the test was an hour away and I knew what my weak points already were.

As I sat in line to practice the quick stopping, I started to feel the anxiety and tears were running down my face. It's my own stupid fault I let myself get that worked up over the whole thing.

I only lost 6 points in the test and did wicked better than I thought I would...

All in all, I would have loved to take it on a scooter which is what I will ride.
Awesome that you pushed through and passed the test!!!
I bet you were very happy the next time you got on your scooter! :D
Such a difference. :!:
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Post by sunshinen »

Here is a link to the MSF scooter safety tips booklet: http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Scoote ... screen.pdf
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Post by Cheshire »

I can understand what you're describing...I used to be severely agoraphobic (among other things). Panic attacks were status quo for me for quite a while. Unfortunately, I don't think my solution will work for you: I fragmented myself further...kinda a mess to keep up with at times, but it works better for me. Alright, enough psychobabble. :wink:

You sound like you're working on finding ways to get the reliable reaction time and proper reactions built into place so as to be a safe, responsible scooter-er. Go for it! We's rooting for ya. :clap:

I don't know about where you are, but I'm going to look into seeing if I can use a scooter for my MSF course, using ADA clause if I have to. Since your reactions are already geared towards scooters (and MC responces are just crossing your wires, so to speak), that might be something worth looking into. Some classes are just plain-out difficult, near impossible with "disability" status on ya.
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Post by Xena »

anndelise wrote:
Xena wrote:WOW...

My husband and I just took the MSF course a few weeks ago. In RI, there is no option to take the test on a scooter (yet). I had No clue how to ride a motorcycle.

On day 2, I thought I would zoom thru the last few hours and pass the test no problem and then I started to get frazzled. It was 90+ degrees, humid, and the test was an hour away and I knew what my weak points already were.

As I sat in line to practice the quick stopping, I started to feel the anxiety and tears were running down my face. It's my own stupid fault I let myself get that worked up over the whole thing.

I only lost 6 points in the test and did wicked better than I thought I would...

All in all, I would have loved to take it on a scooter which is what I will ride.
Awesome that you pushed through and passed the test!!!
I bet you were very happy the next time you got on your scooter! :D
Such a difference. :!:
I was a tad more confident once I got on the scooter, but I have always considered myself a safe and good rider anyway and if it weren't for the law, I would not have taken this course.

Our state, RI, does not yet allow the test on scooters. We were explained by the instrcutors that it was because the state and the college have not spent the money yet to send people to the instructor scooter course in California to be trained to give the class. Once that happens, then scooters will be on the roster.
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Post by coffeekittie »

You know Anndelise, when you mentioned that there was another girl in your MSF class who looked near tears, I immediately thought it might have been me! But you are very far north of where I live in WA, so it was some other stressed out person.
I was kicked out of the class. There. I was riding a scooter (my own, as they didn't have any to use), and I dropped it twice. On the last day, near the end of the dang course.
I was so embarrassed that I didn't tell many people I failed the course - I was afraid they would tell me that it meant that I was obviously incapable of riding safely.
It hurt me that I failed - I knew I could do this - why couldn't I DO it?!
As it turns out, the REAL problem was that I owned a scoot that was simply too big for me. Literally TOO BIG... it weighed more than three times as me, and I could only put my tiptoes on the ground if I stretched.

I suspect I would have had similar troubles as you did if I had chosen to take the class on a motorcycle. I get very caught up in my head with the thinking of this hand here that foot there moving that way turn your head don't squeeze until now NOW ok let off but oops forgot the other hand and foot....
I finally sold the scoot and got myself a Buddy 125. I rode it for a couple weeks, took the State exam, passed very handily, and am completely happy and capable. I'm a careful, defensive driver. I ride every single day, sometimes for over 35 miles.

I failed the course.

So what. I don't think that just because you had trouble on an unfamiliar machine, in a tense and rigid atmosphere, and wrote carefully and very specifically about it that you are a danger. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that you are in fact looking for an affirmation of some sort. Well, here goes!

Ride when you want, where you want, in the conditions you want. Yes, you will not be able to control your environment, but I don't think that is the problem you had with the class. Ride to give yourself pleasure. I deny that the majority of riders walk that perfect line of thinking just enough and not too much. Most people just do the best they can, and if you do your best and always prepare yourself for your rides, you will be as safe as the rest of us. Best wishes to you!
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Post by Sharon »

Annedenise: I'm with you 100%. The MSF course is too intense over too short a period of time. I too had a bad experience in my class. I think it woulld be far better to have fewer hours at one time AND spread this over several weekends. Most people need time to have the information sink in & then have some practice before throwing them into a new situation or a new skill. I also will not go back to one of their classes. I am working/practicing on my own & will take the DMV test when ready.
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Post by ericalm »

Sharon wrote:Annedenise: I'm with you 100%. The MSF course is too intense over too short a period of time. I too had a bad experience in my class. I think it woulld be far better to have fewer hours at one time AND spread this over several weekends. Most people need time to have the information sink in & then have some practice before throwing them into a new situation or a new skill. I also will not go back to one of their classes. I am working/practicing on my own & will take the DMV test when ready.
I think they're set up as 2-or-3 day courses because the lessons are designed to be sequential, with one skill leading to the next and so on. It's no secret, though, that people learn in different ways and that in any educational setting, one size does not fit all students.

The unfortunate part is that the lessons of the MSF, however presented, are very valuable and are rather difficult to learn on your own as quickly as you might learn them in the class. As a result, some riders who would like to take the class—albeit in a different form—have no options other than taking the DMV test and hoping for the best.

If, for whatever reasons, you're unable to take the class, I still recommend getting Proficient Motorcycling and doing the exercises in the book at your own pace. There are even videos on YouTube demonstrating many of the skills. And if you have a friend or someone who's a somewhat experienced rider, they may be willing to go along and help out. (My advice: someone other than spouse or significant other. :))
Last edited by ericalm on Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by charlie55 »

That the course is short and intense? Absolutely! That it is too much so? For some, yes, for others, no. In keeping with the OP, though, the only thing this implies is that different folks learn differently, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I think that you've also got to look at the structure of the course from the logistics point of view. While breaking it into smaller chunks over a longer period of time would benefit some folks, it would also cause a lot of scheduling headaches for both the instructors (many of whom, I'm sure, don't do it as a full-time job) and potential students (unless you're on vacation, it's pretty difficult to grab a block of 4 or 5 days during the week to devote to this). Then there's also the question of fitting as many course instances as possible into the riding season so as to accomodate the apparently growing number of folks who want/need to take them.

I guess that the bottom line is that it's all a delicate balancing act, and the MSF apparently has decided that the course curriculum and duration best suits the needs of the majority of people.

Regards,

Charlie
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Post by MarkTur »

Hi Ann,

I just came back to this thread to read how things are progressing.

First off, I didn't mean to come off like a "dick". I just re-read my post, and I can understand you being insulted, and I'm sorry. I live in an area where there are SO MANY incompetent drivers it's hard to believe. People so old, crippled and debilitated that they should be in rest homes, not vehicles. I saw an old man who was driving on the wrong side of the road just a few hours earlier, and I was outraged all day about it. Just another day in Boynton Beach, FL, however.

Second - I just received my info for my class that starts in 2 weeks...wow, I didn't realize some of the things:

Hours - Thurs. even, 6:00-10:00pm....OK that's fine. Sat, Sun 7:30am-6:00pm, out in the hot Florida sun for 11+ hours... that is close to unbearable for me...and I'm a surfer for over 30 years and can handle the sun...but this is crazy...the letter says "Boot, helmet, jeans are required. It's hot, bring lots of water"... ouch...how will I lug several gallons of water to a remote site, close to the Everglades in 90+ degree heat?

I'm betting people will be dropping out like flies...and I started to think about it, and that's just one of many reasons that are very valid for people to drop. Your reason also became more valid to me as well.

Sometimes there's other issues blocking you from absorbing information. Sometimes you get overwhelmed and can't "get it" as fast as the next person.

So, I want to let you know that I respect you as a person, and really hope that you work your way through the course. It's obvious in your writing that you are an intelligent person, and under non-threatening conditions (where you are ready for a switch from auto to manual) you'll probably do great - for sure ACE the written part.

Don't give up!
Best of luck,
Mark
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Post by anndelise »

MarkTur wrote: Second - I just received my info for my class that starts in 2 weeks...wow, I didn't realize some of the things:

Hours - Thurs. even, 6:00-10:00pm....OK that's fine. Sat, Sun 7:30am-6:00pm, out in the hot Florida sun for 11+ hours... that is close to unbearable for me...and I'm a surfer for over 30 years and can handle the sun...but this is crazy...the letter says "Boot, helmet, jeans are required. It's hot, bring lots of water"... ouch...how will I lug several gallons of water to a remote site, close to the Everglades in 90+ degree heat?

I'm betting people will be dropping out like flies...
for what it's worth, it seems that many of the courses are overbooked so that they wind up splitting the times up. For example, what seems common here is that for every 10 people, there has to be 2 coaches, 6 people can have 1 coach. They had 32 people sign up per weekend. We have a large range and a smaller one. Saturday morning/early afternoon (5 hours) had a 10 person set on the large range and a 6 person set on the smaller one. Then in the later afternoon they were in class with more book stuff and the written test. Then Sunday morning some more range time (4-5 hours) followed by the range test. The other 16 people did their first range time on saturday afternoon (also split up into 10+6), did the classroom stuff and written test on sunday morning, and then had the other half of the range stuff and their test on sunday afternoon.

All of the scooter riders were in the afternoon ranges.
Also, I was lucky that someone was willing to switch the times with me as initially they had me for the afternoon range, but i'm more of a morning person and there's usually less allergy stuff floating around in the mornings. But by afternoons here, most people have been cutting their grasses and that stuff is floating around EVERYwhere!! I didn't want to take the allergy pill for the course.

Perhaps you'll be lucky to get the morning range session, if so then that should be a wee bit less heat intensive for ya. Oh, and pick out a good wicking long sleeve shirt too. (long sleeve's a requirement for some places if not all)
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