Blew up my Buddy - parts wanted

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danix
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Blew up my Buddy - parts wanted

Post by danix »

So, I recently listed my Buddy for sale as I bought a new GTS.
Had a deal, took a deposit, and did some work on it including an oil change.

As I was riding it into SF to deliver it, the oil filter spun off and the oil came out, and the scooter died on me.

I spent about an hour trying to diagnose it. Engine turns over, exhaust puffs, so it's not seized, but no start. Spark plug is clean, air filter is clean, etc.

Today I rented a truck and pulled it into SF Scooter Center. Barry says the engine is "hammered" and replacement, plus a rear tire, will run around $1500, or exactly what I was selling it for.

I'm not sure what to do at this point, besides taking it home, and making it a $1500 lesson in how to rebuild a 4 stroke engine. I'm hopeful that it just needs rings or valves, but who knows.

If you have any other ideas and/or a parts bike sitting around, let me know. :(
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jrsjr
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Post by jrsjr »

in another thread jrsjr wrote:Here's a salvage Buddy that isn't even totalled, just bunged up by incompetent thieves.
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mattgordon
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Re: Blew up my Buddy - parts wanted

Post by mattgordon »

danix wrote:So, I recently listed my Buddy for sale as I bought a new GTS.
Had a deal, took a deposit, and did some work on it including an oil change.

As I was riding it into SF to deliver it, the oil filter spun off and the oil came out, and the scooter died on me.

I spent about an hour trying to diagnose it. Engine turns over, exhaust puffs, so it's not seized, but no start. Spark plug is clean, air filter is clean, etc.

Today I rented a truck and pulled it into SF Scooter Center. Barry says the engine is "hammered" and replacement, plus a rear tire, will run around $1500, or exactly what I was selling it for.

I'm not sure what to do at this point, besides taking it home, and making it a $1500 lesson in how to rebuild a 4 stroke engine. I'm hopeful that it just needs rings or valves, but who knows.

If you have any other ideas and/or a parts bike sitting around, let me know. :(
What exactly does "hammered" mean? Did he elaborate?
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

That sucks—sorry to hear about it.

As discussed in another thread, there are several salvage Buddys out there, many sitting in the back of various dealers' garages. The problem is finding one close to you. I'd think that any costs of pulling and shipping an entire engine would offset the savings from buying a used one. :(

If you can find one close by, it may be worth it.

Unless you're dead set on fixing it, just out of principle, you may be best off selling it as a parts bike to your dealer or as a salvage for a couple hundred bucks.

Once again, DIYers—get those filters tight. Everyone should add this check to their weekly routine. This has happened to a couple people and, as we've read, will really mess up your scoot.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
Keys
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Post by Keys »

By "hammered", I suspect he is referencing the lower end of the engine. An oil loss would first destroy bearings, then the housings for said bearings (engine cases) and the connecting rod plain bearings, which would, of course, gall the crankshaft, thereby rendering the engine, in it's totality, "hammered".

Sorry to hear it....

--Keys 8)
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mattgordon
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Post by mattgordon »

Keys wrote:By "hammered", I suspect he is referencing the lower end of the engine. An oil loss would first destroy bearings, then the housings for said bearings (engine cases) and the connecting rod plain bearings, which would, of course, gall the crankshaft, thereby rendering the engine, in it's totality, "hammered".

Sorry to hear it....

--Keys 8)
It IS unfortunate, and sorry to hear it as well ("no good deed shall go unpunished" comes to mind on your intention to deliver it freshly serviced to it's new owner)

I cant imagine it turns over and has compression then in that condition. It must've run w/o oil for longer than described. What did the dealer do to diagnose? Did he attempt to start it, pull the sparkplug? That's kind of a blanket statement "hammered" especially if he's attached a price-tag to it's repair already.

I mean if the estimate is simply for a "new" engine, keep the old one and learn something from it, if the existing engine is going to be repaired for that price, what has been itemized/diagnosed to repair it? If the former, I'd tear into it myself, just to see what got cooked.

I'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, just would be nice to know what exactly has been damaged by the lack of oil, caused by an issue that can occur to any Buddy...a loose oil filter, on a machine without an oil-press. light I don't think that puny starter motor would turn a seized/galled bearing engine over...
danix
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Post by danix »

I got a little more detail when I picked it up. They did a compression check and it had 75psi, which I imagine is low. The top end is definitely messed up, bottom end, who knows.

A guy was hanging out chatting with Barry and said he could tell if the bottom end was messed up just by kicking it over. Turns out the guy is POC Phil, out visiting, and according to his finely tuned foot, I'm going to need a crank as well.

I'm going to tear it down and then see what to do. If I need an engine, Barry has a bunch of them from salvage bikes. Meanwhile, I'll keep my eyes open for any cheap totals.

Yes, be especially careful with the filters. Phil said that he warns everyone who buys a filter from him to make sure they are tight and said something about checking the filter after 4 warmup/cooldown cycles.

I've been working on cars and changing my own oil for at least 15 years, so it's not as if I had no idea what I was doing here. I tightened that filter at least hand tight, with a latex glove, and then gave it about 1/4 turn with a screwdriver. Phil says you need to give it almost a full turn and crank it down.
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mattgordon
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Post by mattgordon »

danix wrote:I got a little more detail when I picked it up. They did a compression check and it had 75psi, which I imagine is low. The top end is definitely messed up, bottom end, who knows.

A guy was hanging out chatting with Barry and said he could tell if the bottom end was messed up just by kicking it over. Turns out the guy is POC Phil, out visiting, and according to his finely tuned foot, I'm going to need a crank as well.

I'm going to tear it down and then see what to do. If I need an engine, Barry has a bunch of them from salvage bikes. Meanwhile, I'll keep my eyes open for any cheap totals.

Yes, be especially careful with the filters. Phil said that he warns everyone who buys a filter from him to make sure they are tight and said something about checking the filter after 4 warmup/cooldown cycles.

I've been working on cars and changing my own oil for at least 15 years, so it's not as if I had no idea what I was doing here. I tightened that filter at least hand tight, with a latex glove, and then gave it about 1/4 turn with a screwdriver. Phil says you need to give it almost a full turn and crank it down.
That bites. I guess it doesn't take long at say 6000 RPM to spit out a liter of oil. Sorry to hear it...will be checking ours ASAP. Good Luck with it.
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Post by lou76 »

yo danix... check your PM's...
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Post by echochamber »

Bummer about the bike, but you should be able to find a motor.

Same thing happened to me after the 1st oil change: filter came loose after a day, felt the rear slipping (due to oil spilling out), thought it was a flat tire.

Pulled over & saw what was happening, fortunately lost only 1/2 litre.

Moral of the story: Those Buddy filters need to be on extra, extra tight - waaayyy more than what you are used to on a car or moto.

Too bad there is no oil pressure indicator on those bikes.
danix
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Post by danix »

Bump. A year later and it's still in the shed waiting for me to get around to it. I tried calling Barry again but can never catch him in the shop, guess I have to just drop by one day,
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betsy q. bramble
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Post by betsy q. bramble »

Anyone care to post a photo for those of us that don't know where the oil filter is located, so we can make sure to be checking it periodically? I'm learning how to change my oil on Friday but I'm impatient and have actually been meaning to ask this for awhile now.
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Post by broke »

betsy q. bramble wrote:Anyone care to post a photo for those of us that don't know where the oil filter is located, so we can make sure to be checking it periodically?
This tech forum post is a great tutorial on gear and motor oil change (including your filter):
topic76.html

I check tire pressure and the oil filter "tightness" every night.
danix
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Post by danix »

I suggest finding a whiteout pen (or better, the ones like it that have fluorescent paint in them) and marking a line after the filter is installed.
This way you can tell at a glance if the filter has moved.
Another idea is to mark an arrow on the filter pointing at a specific spot.
Problem is, you have to bend under to see the filter, but it's still helpful.
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Post by jfrost2 »

The oil filter wont spin off randomly unless you just did a oil change. Most likely, the first or second ride it will come off if not tightened properly. After my oil change, I was cautious and constantly looking back to see if it wasnt leaking. It never did, I just worried for nothing, now I dont think about it.
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Post by scooterjon »

Shouldn't there be a torque spec??? :shock:

Jon.
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Post by jfrost2 »

8nm according to the service manual, filter itself....but it lies.

The filter can go to 12-15 foot pounds. Really I prefer just hand tightening it, and then wrenching it down until tight. If you just do a light hand tight, it will spin off and kill your bike, but if you do it hand tight and some more, it'll stay on.
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Post by r0sa »

sorry about your incident, man.

since your filter flew off and the engine ran with no oil, you would probably need new piston and rings along and maybe a new cylinder? i dont think your engine is fully destroyed.
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Post by danix »

I have yet to find the time (and desire) to tear this down. Meanwhile registration is due. Anyone want a project bike? :)
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Post by bluebuddygirl »

Bump. As everyone gets ready for Spring riding weather, and is doing their own oil changes, this is an important lesson.
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Post by scooterjon »

I had this issue with my buddy 150 with the oil filter coming loose. I was not sure if the dealer complete the service correctly (which they claim they did) or there is a design flaw. So far it has cost me a crank and a top end, which I am asking to be covered under warranty so far no response yet from Geniune... but I am sure they will cover it. Hope to get my buddy back and give the wife back the Vespa, which would be hard to do.


Jon
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enzomatic
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Post by enzomatic »

my filter cracked and dumped my oil, got a new top end compliments of genuine. My dealer did all the talking with them.
Looking for ppl to ride with in LA.
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lotusmark
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Oil filter tool...

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Post by Sparky »

*winces*

I've been checking my own oil filter these past two weeks. It was changed last November as part of putting in clean oil for winter hibernation. Every so often I check my rear views for signs I'm leaving a big slick behind me.
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Post by ZQ8 Blazer »

Part it out! Anything custom on it?

If you weren't on the otherside of the country I'd take the whole thing off your hands.

But would you consider parting it out?
-Justin-
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Post by Vic »

Question and suggestion.

First, my question. I am now really paranoid about not getting the filter down tight enough. Do I need to change the filter at every oil change or can I maybe do that every other oil change and take it in to the dealer (whom I do not trust as far as I can discus throw my Buddy) for the filter change?

Second, you might visit your doctor or hospital and see if you can snag a syringe. They use rubber on them, so this is a disposable solution since the rubber will get gunky after a while, BUT, for those needing to do an oil change and are waiting on the real tool to arrive in the mail, this might work.

Obviously, I would only use one that was fresh in its sterile wrapper and not go rooting through medical waste :shock:

Cheers,
-v
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Kaos
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Post by Kaos »

Vic wrote:Question and suggestion.

First, my question. I am now really paranoid about not getting the filter down tight enough. Do I need to change the filter at every oil change or can I maybe do that every other oil change and take it in to the dealer (whom I do not trust as far as I can discus throw my Buddy) for the filter change?

Second, you might visit your doctor or hospital and see if you can snag a syringe. They use rubber on them, so this is a disposable solution since the rubber will get gunky after a while, BUT, for those needing to do an oil change and are waiting on the real tool to arrive in the mail, this might work.

Obviously, I would only use one that was fresh in its sterile wrapper and not go rooting through medical waste :shock:

Cheers,
-v
Change it every oil change. There's no point in changing your oil just to run it through a dirty filter.
danix
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Post by danix »

I don't really want to part it out - hell, if I had the time to wrench on it, it would be fixed by now :)
Still, I moved it from the shed to the garage, and will be starting on it soon.
Any idea what a new crank and rings will cost?
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Post by mattgordon »

danix wrote:I don't really want to part it out - hell, if I had the time to wrench on it, it would be fixed by now :)
Still, I moved it from the shed to the garage, and will be starting on it soon.
Any idea what a new crank and rings will cost?
I'd look into a salvage buy from an insurnace company and just swap the whole engine from a totaled one....probably be cheaper in the long run.
danix
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Post by danix »

Yeah, that makes the most sense, but SF Scooter center is the only place that would have an engine and I think they want around $500 for one.
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