Buddy, Kymco or Vespa?

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greentea
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Buddy, Kymco or Vespa?

Post by greentea »

Hi, everyone! I'm a new and totally excited scooter enthusiast. As I am in my last year of high school and will be starting college at the University of Denver next year, I thought it is an ample time to jump the gun and get a scooter.

But I am torn: do I go with the classic but over-priced vespa LX150 or GT200, the sporty, big-wheeled Kymco People150, or the trendy, peppy Buddy 125 (in the new red, of course)? I have done research and last week I test rode all three of them (along with some others) but I still do not really know. I suppose the overall experience of just riding any scooter was distracting in itself.. But for all intents and purposes the Vespa was nice, just a little heavy and hard to turn and balance. The buddy was cool and spunky, seemed to fit me well and turned like a breeze (though, is it too small?) and the people was great, just felt a little awkward.

So, even though this is a Buddy-oriented site, it would be very helpful for me if you could give as unbiased advise as possible... Speaking from experience and knowledge of course. See, being a student, I need something with GREAT mpg (i know all of them are better than cars) but enough power to get me out of traffic and easily let me get where I need to go. Naturally, I would never ride on the interstates (I-25 or I-70, uhh I don't think so...) but would still need a scoot that can do well on other major roads, where the speed is, say, 55mph. My concern there is that the Buddy is so light it would lose control and be whipped around. True, or no? AMple passenger space is also on of my top concerns, as I have a girlfriend who is very excited about this whole scooter thing, and I have other friends who will I'm sure want their turn on a ride. Also, what's the big deal with the Poeple's bigger wheels? Is that a huge advantage or not? I suppose I ask because right now Denver's roads are horrendous (I place the blame on our unlucky winter weather patterns..) so bumps and cracks are turning up everywhere. Do the larger wheels offer more stability for that sort of thing or are the 10-inchers just fine?

And with the Vespa's price, I am leaning more toward the other two right now, hearing good things of both. But I just want to make sure I get the best, you know? Let me know what you think!! Greatly appreciated!

Cameron
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lobsterman
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Post by lobsterman »

Whether the Buddy is too small for you only you can say, but I'm 5'9" and 195 lbs and it's plenty big enough for me and easily handles 50mph roads where people are doing 60. I was going an indicated 72 on my way home from work on Friday. That's probably a realistic 65 or so.

As for getting blown around, I rode a little over a week ago when we had gusting winds in the 35 - 50 range. Some of it wasn't comfortable and I wouldn't recommend it, but the Buddy did fine. Riding anything on two wheels in high wind is less than desirable.

The choice is up to you, but I would recommend the Buddy, no hesitation.
Kevin
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mlee10018
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Post by mlee10018 »

I love the buddy, but riding 2 up is a bit crowded. The passenger foot pegs are not well designed, the seat is a bit short, and the suspesnison is at it's limit. This is with about 270lbs total.

I would go with the people if you are thinking about having passengers more often than not. I love the scooter, but is one of my wishes for the buddy, of course you have to give somewhere.
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Post by DO3 »

I don't know how big you are, but I'm 6'1" about 205 and I find the Buddy uncomfortably cramped when my wife hops on the back with me. 95% of my riding is solo and I tend to sit more towards the back of the seat. So if riding two up will happen a lot or for longer trips than zipping around campus I'd personally lean towards something a little bigger.

I think the Vespa GT is very nice but when I test rode one last year I didn't think it was worth almost twice the cost of the Buddy. I think the buddy is probably the best bang for your buck scooter out there and to get anything much bigger of faster you'll have to move up to the 200cc+ range which also brings the price up almost 2K as well.

I ride my buddy to work on occassion which is 20 miles of county roads posted 55 but traffic is usually 60-65 mph. After I put the small windshield on I have no problem keeping up. And as far is being pushed around by the wind I can't say the buddy is any worse than any other two wheeler I've ridden (sport bikes, cruisers) but with the shorter wheelbase you do have to pay more attention. Hope that helps.
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rajron
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Post by rajron »

If 2 up riding is important, I would not get the Buddy.


……… not sure if it the larger wheels or if its just the layout of the scoot but the People 150 is much more stable, substantial than the Buddy, I’ve never ridden the Vespa so I cant speak on that. In my opinion I am glad that my wife rides the People over the Buddy because it is so much more stable than the Buddy – don’t get me wrong I love my Buddy!
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BlueMark
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Blur 200

Post by BlueMark »

If you can affort it (MSRP $3699) the new Blur might fit your needs. It's seat height is a bit higher, but if your inseam is 30 or more you'll be fine, has a big roomy seat and seats two up very well for a small scoot. It's 13 inch wheels aren't as big as the big wheel People's, but it has a fancy 6 link suspension that is so good and solid that it is every bit as stable as the bigger wheeled bikes. Some claim it is the best handling scoot period.

The blur is extremely stable in the wind. I've felt it push my body around a bit, but the bike below me is rock steady.

This year's Blur is 200cc, which is plenty of power for city streets - even riding 2 up, and should even be good on the highway.

Nobody is really sure how to peg the milage on the Blur, the odometer units don't seem to correspond to either miles or kilometers (we call them BDU's - for Blur Distance Units), but milage seems to be in the 70 to 90 mpg range depending.

Of course I'm biased - I ride a Blur 150.

-Mark
Last edited by BlueMark on Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by sunshinen »

I ride the Buddy on a 55mph road for 20 miles (one way) every week and it's been great. It can be shaky at WOT (wide open throttle), especially if it is windy, but if things get too bad I just hop into the slow lane and cruise with them for a while. 8) I've never had any problems keeping up with traffic. (Apparently the Buddy is actually faster than the People.) I do recommend a windshield. It helps with stability and comfort at higher speeds.

What first brought my attention to the Buddy was the 100mpg, and so far the estimated mpg has not been that far off. I've been very happy with that.

The Buddy is very nimble--great for dodging road hazards. But I haven't had any problems when I do hit them. It isn't exactly smooth when you hit them, mind you, but it makes up for it with manueverability. :wink:
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gt1000
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Post by gt1000 »

Hi greentea, you sure ask a lot of questions. They're really good questions though and it looks like you've already got a good jump on your research. Here's my take...

Like most everyone else says, if 2-up riding is going to be a regular thing, the Buddy is not your best choice. It's cramped and awkward to ride 2-up. But, and this is really important, you need to be really certain about how much 2-up riding you'll be doing because you don't want to base your decision on one factor that becomes irrelevant. Why do I say this? Because I LOATHE riding pillion. Hate it, scares the crap out of me. Before you buy one scooter for two, make damn sure you don't REALLY want 1 scooter for EACH.

Big wheels vs. small? Both have advantages and disadvantages. In the most general terms, big wheels are more stable, small wheels are more nimble. I like nimble scoots so I go for small wheels. But I also ride a motorcycle.

Oh, and one thing you didn't mention was storage space. Students need storage space so make sure the scoot you choose can carry all your stuff.

If I were you, I'd look at 2 Buddys if the Buddy is your 1st choice. That's still less money than a Vespa GTS, which I would definitely pick over the GT. But, I'd also look at the Fly 150 and other Piaggios and the suggestion of the Blur is brilliant. Kymco makes great scooters that are very well built, but they've never appealed to me. But, if I had a passenger a lot, I'd look at the People 250 as well as the Blur.

Finally, you've already ridden a few so you've been to Sportique and Erico. Before you buy, ask at each dealership about regular service costs. You may find that one brand is much cheaper or much more expensive to maintain than the others.
Andy

2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
greentea
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Post by greentea »

Thanks for the advice. As you noted Gt1000, storage space is key. I understand that the buddy can fit a fullface helmet under the seat and has the open "glove compartment." Is it better to have the open or a closed one?

Also, I didn't mention that the main passenger I will 2 up with is 5'0 and only 100 pounds, while I am 5'10" and 130. But I will probably go look again and ask the dealer some more questions before I jump out there and buy. I will also check into the Blur. Thanks everyone!

Cameron
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lobsterman
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Post by lobsterman »

greentea,

Some full face helmets fit under the seat, not all. YMMV. My XL full face Bell Sprint helmet fits, just barely.

I suggest you take your prospective passenger and the both of you sit on the scooters in the showroom.

btw, I went on a group ride with several people on a freakishly warm day in December. The two in this picture rode two up on a Buddy most of the day:
http://www.scooterdave.com/wp-gallery2. ... temId=6096
They seemed to keep up just fine, and we did some fairly high speed twisty sections.
Kevin
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Kurzer
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Post by Kurzer »

Ultimately, the choice is up to you. You also have some issues that were not posted that you may not be aware of. You live at a high altitude and this effects the engine and carb more than you'd think.

My personal opinion based on what you're looking for is actually not a scooter. Scooters are great and yes, the Italian models are over priced. The Buddy 125 does an amazing job for what it is. I'm 6' 230lb and I have no trouble doing 65mph on a flat road. Yes, you will get tossed around in the wind but this is true of everything on 2 wheels.
Based on what you're looking to do, I would suggest a 500cc or larger motorcycle. The model and style depends solely on your choices, I like hard lines and sporty looks. A Moto Guzzi Forge would be what I'd send you to go look at.
If you're hearts set on a scooter, the Buddy does do a great job and there are some things you can do to remidy it's small faults. An aftermarket exhaust, rejet the carb and possibly a custom seat would fix it to fit your needs. These all add $$$ to the bottom line but it's all marginal with a scooter, a bike is a different story.
I've been riding for over 10 years on scooters, mopeds, dual sports, cruisers and sportbikes. Your concerns about wind and stability are valid concerns as at some point or another, you will have to deal with them. The best choice for that I can offer is that you and your girlfriend take a riders safety course. You will learn in a few days what takes many riders years to figure out on thier own. After that and your vehicle purchase, you will start to gain confidence on the bike and then after a year or so you can and should re-evaluate your vehicle choice based on what you've learned and how you've adapted to riding.
I don't do much modding on the scoot anymore, just riding :-)
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Post by ericalm »

We have a Vespa LX150/Buddy 125 household. I've posted my impressions of one vs. the other in a few threads (you can search for them).

Unless you buy used and get a good deal, I'd advise against getting the Vespa GT200. (That said, I've seen some very nice ones go for under $3,000.) The model's being discontinued and there have never been enough accessories made for it. Quite a few GT owners over on ModernVespa quickly traded up to the GTS 250ie.

These are all good scoots you're considering here. I like the Buddy, find it uncomfortable for anything longer than 45 minutes or so. My size 12 feet are a little cramped on the floorboards. So if you can, ride all the ones you're considering. If you can't, at least sit on them, see how you fit on it, how the mirrors and handlebars, etc. feel when you're comfortably seated.

To toss out a few more options, Piaggio (maker of Vespa) is coming out with what looks like a very nice 200cc (same engine as the Vespa GT) scoot, the Carnaby. I don't yet know when it's hitting the US or the cost. There's also the Fly 150 (same engine as LX), but I think the Buddy and Kymco may provide more bang for your buck. And Aprilia (also made by Piaggio) is bringing the SportCity scoot to the US as a 250cc (same engine as the Vespa GTS). As much as I love the Vespa's styling and "fit and finish", if I were in the market for a bigger scoot, I'd seriously consider the SportCity instead of a GTS.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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Post by peabody99 »

I did not see anything from the original poster that suggests they need a 500+ cc motorcycle. Given their needs and probable inexperience (due to age), a scooter sounds perfect. a 200 or less seems like needs would be meet well (price, fuel economy etc) geez, kurzer do you sell motorcycles? :wink:

For what ever reason, it seems all motorcycle riders try to convert scooter riders! no thanks, I am pretty set on my "religion" (Buddyism, remember?)

I have only driven the buddy, but sat on many others. Thankfully the Buddy's reliability and great price has matched the nice looks and good fit (more me). And yes, on more open road riding it does get 100+ mpg (less in the city)It is not really comfortable with 2 people though, unless you are going on just a short ride. But you are young, and do not get all the kinks and spasms that those of us over say, 30 do from trying to ride two up on a bud.

I am not sure about the carbs thing, but there are many Denver Buddy riders on this very board, maybe you try and get their attention to get more info about all that. Good luck and be safe!
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Great Thread...

Post by drewbird911 »

Answering questions I didn't know I had. I have been doing lots of research and I think that for me the Buddy will fit the bill, but I may out grow it in a few years? The Blur may me the better scooter long term, but how is it for a noobie?

Thanks again
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Post by ericalm »

Grow out of it in what way?

The Buddy 125 can grow with you to an extent. If you feel the need for more power/speed there are some performance parts on the available and more on the way. If you find you want to do a lot of freeway riding, though, you'll probably want something bigger. The forthcoming 200cc Blur may fit the bill then, but who knows what will be available when that time comes?
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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gt1000
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Post by gt1000 »

As always, good threads keep going and good opinions keep flowing. Kurzer made a very good point about the MSF class but, if you road tested 125 and over scoots in Denver, you probably have your endorsement. If so, like everyone has already said, test ride everything. When you go to Erico to test the Vespas and Piaggios take a ride on a small Monster, Triumph or Guzzi. And even if you have that "M" on your license but haven't taken the MSF, it's still a good idea for both of you to take the course. Best $200 you'll ever spend.

That said, my daily commute from downtown through the Highlands is on roads and through neighborhoods very much like what you find around DU. I have 2 motorized bikes, the Buddy 125 and 992cc Ducati. 4 out of 5 commutes see me on the Buddy, it's way more fun than the Duc in that setting. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ducati. In the same amount of time it has more than double the Buddy's miles, but most of those are recreational rides into the canyons and mountains with a few highway rides and a handful of commutes. I'm positive that if I lived within a few miles of DU my choice would be the same. But again, it's your choice and you can make your best choice by riding everything.

That brings us full circle. Both Sportique and Erico maintain demo fleets so you can ride just about anything you choose in neighborhoods similar to DU. When you're at Sportique, ride the Buddy, Blur and People up through the Highlands on Tejon or Zuni with detours east and west on numbered avenues through the neighborhoods. Then take a quick run east or west on 38th to see how the bikes handle faster speeds. At Erico you continue out Walnut towards the railroad yards and take a right into the 5 points neighborhood on any of the numbered avenues. Walnut and Blake will give you an idea of how those Piaggios and Vespas handle the higher speeds. Take your time and try to get to know the bikes and how they handle the different conditions. Then you'll have a really good idea of how they'll handle Evans, University and all the small streets around DU.

We're lucky to have two dealers who take scooters seriously. Take advantage. The bikes will be tuned for Denver so carbs won't be an issue unless you ride way up into the mountains or way out east towards sea level. Either of those is a major hike on the Buddy.
Andy

2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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Post by jess »

Speaking as someone who owns and loves a Vespa GTS, I would suggest crossing the Vespas off your list. Not because they're bad bikes (they're certainly not) but they're expensive to buy, expensive to fix, and attract unwanted attention when parked outside. I suspect your future scooter is going to live most of its life out of doors, and I honestly feel a Buddy is a better college-oriented scooter. Small, inexpensive, easy to replace body panels (if necessary) and (I'll catch hell for this, I know) just a much better bike to beat the crap out of. Plus, it's easier to ride than a Vespa and a lot of fun, too. If you don't plan on going on freeways, the Buddy is just about perfect.

The catch is the two-up requirement. This question comes up a lot (for all scooters, not just the Buddy) and, well, most scooters generally suck when ridden two-up. Everyone wants to be able to do it, and puts it on their requirement list, but honestly, there's not many scooters that do it comfortably. If you're both 5-foot and 98 pounds, maybe it's not so bad. Certainly, some people ride two-up, even on the Buddy. But you should seriously consider whether this is a really a hard and fast requirement or just a nice-to-have.

Whatever you get, good luck with your purchase, and be sure to come back and tell us what you got.
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Post by lou76 »

greentea wrote:...the main passenger I will 2 up with is 5'0 and only 100 pounds, while I am 5'10" and 130.
i think that the two of you will fit just fine on the buddy... together you weigh less than more than a a lot of the buddy owners out there by themselves... just do whatever you have to do to become a solid rider... stakes are even higher with someone on the back... then again, at 5nuthin and a buckmaybe, she will probably fit in the underseat storage compartment.... :]
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Post by Bryce-O-Rama »

The People 150 and Buddy 125 would be my choices. The People can allow 2 up riding a lot more easily, but the Buddy has much more under seat storage. I also think the Buddy is a bit more fun to ride. And unless you find a deal on the People 150, the Buddy will be cheaper, if that matters.
- Bryce
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Post by weebl »

As to the two-up thing: if you want to ride with a passenger, I'd suggest getting the rack/top case combo... just because it kind of acts as a back rest. "ample" isn't really a word I'd use to describe the passenger seat. If you're not too tall, you should be able to fit someone on the back fairly easily tho. I went riding w. a buddy this weekend, and the 5'3 driver had a passenger who was about 6'3. His knees made nice arm rests for her.

Rumor has it that the 200cc blur isn't going to be on the road in time for '07, just the new colors. bummer :(
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Post by vitaminC »

Kurzer wrote:A Moto Guzzi Forge would be what I'd send you to go look at.
Do you mean M-G Norge? Yikes! That is definitely not a starter bike! Also doesn't meet any other requirements- price, MPG, good city ride...

To the OP, why not look for something used and cheap, ride it for a while to decide how much you really love scootering (or not), and then buy the scoot of your dreams. You may also consider a Bajaj, they are a bit better for 2-up riding; you will lose some power but will gain in style!
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Post by ericalm »

Are you dead set on a new scoot? There are ample used, good condition Vespa ET4s out there. You could even take some of the money you saved buying used and kit the engine up to a 190.

(Yes, I'm still pimping the Piaggio products, but only because my knowledge of the Kymcos is all second-hand and because I'm not sure the Buddy fits the bill in this case.)
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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gt1000
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Post by gt1000 »

Do you mean M-G Norge?
I was wondering about that too. I don't think I've every seen a Norge in person, it's MG's 1200cc touring bike. I'd guess its dry weight is pushing 600 pounds so it's probably not best suited for small neighborhood roads. The Breva or Griso might be fun though.
Andy

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2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
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BlueMark
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Re: Great Thread...

Post by BlueMark »

drewbird911 wrote:The Blur may me the better scooter long term, but how is it for a noobie?

Thanks again
It isn't a problem.

I took to the Blur instantly, as well as the Buddy without having any real experience - other than decades as a bicycle rider.

The buddy is a blast to ride, it is small, light and very responsive. The Blur is a bit heavier, bigger, and very solid, not the least bit twitchy and so easy to control that it may inspire overconfidence. That is probably the biggest problem with small scooters - they are so easy to ride that unskilled riders too readily exceed their capabilities.

I haven't heard anything bad about the quality of the Buddy. My dealer said my blur was the by far the best build quality he had ever seen on a scooter - and this was well AFTER he had made the sale. PGO doesn't make junk.

For riding around campus and the neighborhood the Buddy would be hard to beat. Plus there are a lot of accessories available for it, and it beats the Blur in convenience for storage - the Blur has a nice size pet carrier - most full helmets should fit, but no 'tray' up front, no bag hook, and only a back rack is available - the Buddy can mount a rack up front too.

The Buddy 125 and Blur 150 have about the same top speed - the Blur may have sport bike looks, but it isn't overpowered, and the Blur is much better handling at higher speeds. The '07 Blur is a 200cc and should be plenty fast enough for the highway.

The Buddy will get better mileage, and costs a lot less. The Blur is better for 2 up riding and has superior handling.

Styling is also an issue, the Blur has aggressive looks that take some getting used to (although the new Black and Grey '07 is a big improvement), the Buddy has classic scooter styling without being too retro.

What else? Hmmm ... the Blur and Buddy both have air cooled engines, but the Blur's is also oil cooled - so it may last longer.

-Mark
Last edited by BlueMark on Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Keys »

Okay, Cameron...here's my two-cents worth. I have over 30 years experience on both motorcycles and motorscooters dating back to my '63 V90 Vespa. I bought the Buddy for these reasons; I ride alone on my scooter and didn't need anything bigger, the engine is a quality piece with pressurized lubrication and spin-on oil filter (among other things), the scoot has been around since at least '04 in Taiwan and Europe so the kinks are pretty well worked out. Also, it looks good and handles well. I personally prefer the smaller diameter wheels for the quick handling and...well, they just say "scooter" to me.

I shopped others and found the Kymcos to be uncomfortable in the saddle area, the Chinese brands to be non-functional after about 2 weeks, the Italians and Japanese models to be too expensive.

For inexpensive transportation that is of quality construction, I don't think you can beat the Buddy. I have altered mine a little for performance and a lot for personalization and have found it to be a willing and capable canvas. Speed and power is great for a 125 (don't expect a 200) and it is very likely the most fun I've ever had on wheels. At my age I don't care who I impress, but I'm a sucker for the GPM...Grins Per Mile...and the Buddy delivers.

--Keys 8)
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Vespa, Kymco or Buddy?

Post by pocphil »

I sell all three. And there's a reason for that.

They're all great scooters. You live in a great scooter city, the guys at Sportique are top notch, so is Erico. So that's a big safety net for you no matter what you choose.

Yep, the LX150 is more expensive and it's going to be a little more costly to maintain / service. The upside is you'll have a much greater return on your investment when you're ready to trade it or sell it. Just the same, it's around $5000 out the door. It's ok to be a label snob, but you're going to pay for it.

The People 150 is just about bulletproof and the big wheels do make for a smoother ride on rough pavement. Double the Vespa warranty, but you'll probably never need it.

The Buddy is damn near indestructible and has the "WOW" factor before and after the sale. Buddy parts are affordable and the scooter is unusually fast and nimble.

Fit and function are very important, but, you should ultimately buy the scooter that turns you on. Remember, you're the one who's going to be riding it and looking at it. If you can find a scooter that fits, and turns you on...buy it.
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Post by vitaminC »

I think we scared him off with all our great advice! :P
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Post by Kurzer »

Yes, I meant a Norge :oops: sorry, I've been out of it since I had to put my cat down last Friday... but that's another thread.

Nope, not a salesman, just ridden a few :wink: bikes. Granted, the Norge is spendy, but it's very smooth. My first bike is the same Triumph 600 Daytona that I now perform questionable acts on the public roadways. Going between the two is a very different riding style.

The Buddy has been great so far, the only complaint is it's loss of grunt while at the top end, certainly nothing to dismiss the scooter by. I'm hoping the exhaust will fix that.

Just fab'd an H1 halogen bulb in... not realizing one is made for it... but it was fun. It's all null anyway as either an HID or LED system will take it's place soon.

It sounds like the 125 Buddy will do what he's looking to do, again, with the altitude the scoot may need to be re-jetted, but since I'm near sea level, I have no for sure answer to that. It seems to me that the real hard question now is... what colour? :wink:
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Mr. Met
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Post by Mr. Met »

Sad news, K. I had to do that once - worst day of my life.

Other than that, I was just going to comment on how helpful this thread has been. I'm still trying decide which to buy too. It's not like trying to decide whether to sign the Austrian-Italian Armistice of Villa Giusti, for cryin' out loud, but it's fun (in a way, I guess) to act like it is.

I'm hoping to sneak out today and go ride the LX 150 and GTS - whoopee!
greentea
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Post by greentea »

hey guys,

Wow, didn't expect so much advice. Thanks everyone! I went to Sportique again and test drove the buddy 125 and people 150 once more. I decided to rule out vespas and piaggios, simply because of the price and pricey-upkeep. But hey, if I were wealthy I would no doubt go with a vespa! With my girlfriend on the back of both, I felt slightly cramped on the buddy, probably because I have 11 1/2 shoes, but the people felt fine. The second time'round it also felt smoother and more stable on the roads (something my dear-old mother is pushing for) but the buddy is nimble and quick, though possibly a little small. Either way, I would go with the new RED buddy or the wine coloured people. I also checked out the blur 150, and it just seemed too big for my novice-status. I also tend to prefer the retro look than the sporty look, but thats just asthetics. So I will let you know what I decide to go with! Thanks again!

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DaBinChe
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Post by DaBinChe »

also check out the People S200, it is really only 163cc
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