Gas Vs Electric Scooters

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu May 21, 2009 2:58 pm

Hey everyone! I was talking to a guy about scooters the other day and he said he wanted an electric. I said he should get a gas scooter instead, he asked me why...and I didn't really have an answer. So, gas is superior to electric right? Why? (Aside from the obvious "Buddy's are the best and they are gas." Answer)

Thanks!

Post by **jmazza** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:14 pm

Well the cost is a huge factor. A Vectrix electric scooter is $10k+

Range is another. According to this review, 40-60 miles is all you get before needing another 2 hour charge.

And the most common thing that is overlooked (just as we overlook some things when we call our scooters green) is that there is a hit to the environment to make the power that charges the battery. So while there's no gas to buy, it's still not exactly a bicycle.

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:21 pm

jmazza wrote:Well the cost is a huge factor. A Vectrix electric scooter is $10k+

Range is another. According to this review, 40-60 miles is all you get before needing another 2 hour charge.

And the most common thing that is overlooked (just as we overlook some things when we call our scooters green) is that there is a hit to the environment to make the power that charges the battery. So while there's no gas to buy, it's still not exactly a bicycle.

He showed me one in a magaxine that was only $3,500. I didn't get a good look at the brand or anything though, could have been cheap crap from China.

I was thinking that too, that while there's no emission from the scooter, there's still impact from the electric plants. Not sure how that balances against gasoline.

Here in AZ we need solar scooters

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:46 pm

I've had this discussion before in an academic setting. These are some of the points that came up. I'll just do the con's since the pro's are well-known.

Electric scooter:
-functions best at low speeds, not very good at maintaining higher speeds. (This is true of hybrid cars as well.)
-current battery/fuel cell tech is dependent on heavy metals, some of which are surface-mined. Exhausted fuel cells are still (for now) an environmental difficulty to dispose of.
-Short range on a single charge.
-Repairing an electric is going to be tricky at best, and possibly (depending on quality of scooter) very expensive. The lower-quality ones are closer to trash when they break.
-Recharging time is in the hours. This is the fatal cut for bring practical as a more than a toy, IMHO.

If electric fits his needs, why not?

The tech's not going to advance unless people show interest and invest in it. If everyone looks but no one buys, electric is going to get abandoned for something that'll keep food on a table. However, your friend needs to make sure he can deal with the shortcomings without them getting him stranded. I'd definately not use one to REPLACE my primary vehicle. Suppliment? Yes. Replace? No.

I love the idea of electric scooters. It's a tech still in it's infancy, though. However, I don't knock it too hard, because I realize it's got to go through several stages before it'll reach a level that the average, everyday person can put it to practical use. I'm not saying they're crap...just still a novelty at this point. It's still a poodle on a leash...I'm eagerly awaiting the day it becomes a working dog.

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:52 pm

As long as the batteries are not dumped into a landfill, electric is way better for the environment than gas, expesialy something like my 2-stroke. The electric versions are also way cheaper to operate, they cost like 2 cents per mile to run. The problem is that the battery tech. is just not there to support the kind of driving that people do. The technology is very close however, and I'm sure that within the next 10 years we will have awesome batteries that will be able to keep pace with american driving habits. I'm especialy interested in the quick charging capability that they are achieving. I have read about batteries that will charge to 80% in five minutes. There are also folks working on batteries that will have several hundred times the storgae capacity using silicone nanotubes. Lots of exciting things going on in the electric vehicle arena, but for now, It's gas for me:)

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:55 pm

Because electric scooters last 20 miles, have a top speed of 30 down a steep hill, require pedaling up hills and are chinese junk.

Electric vehicles right now arent that great, the good ones are crazy expensive and seem slightly realistic. I've seen electric cars that are faster than ferraris and can go 500 miles per recharge, but then again they cost nearly 100k.

For scooters, the only electric models there are, are those chinese pieces of junk you see at used car dealers, auto part stores, and tractor dealers. They last for a month then the batteries fail, the body rust, the plastic cracks....

In toronto, lots of people ride these because they are counted as bicycles since the top speed is like 20MPH on a flat surface, it's very funny to watch the people struggle pedaling a uphill and wearing paintball masks as helmets.

Gas scooters will always be superior in this life time, a liquid fuel is sustainable and never fails, it burns until out, then you just refill, an electric engine requires a battery which when out of juice requires lengthy recharges.

A man powered bicycle is 10x better than an electric scooter.

jasondavis48108 wrote:As long as the batteries are not dumped into a landfill, electric is way better for the environment than gas, expesialy something like my 2-stroke. The electric versions are also way cheaper to operate, they cost like 2 cents per mile to run. The problem is that the battery tech. is just not there to support the kind of driving that people do. The technology is very close however, and I'm sure that within the next 10 years we will have awesome batteries that will be able to keep pace with american driving habits. I'm especialy interested in the quick charging capability that they are achieving. I have read about batteries that will charge to 80% in five minutes. There are also folks working on batteries that will have several hundred times the storgae capacity using silicone nanotubes. Lots of exciting things going on in the electric vehicle arena, but for now, It's gas for me:)

Speaking from a scientific point of view, all electricity comes from a source, solar power, geothermal, coal, etc. A engine running off electricity really isnt that green when you think about the sources where the electricity came from. More electricity being used, more coal being burned to supply you with the power. Or maybe it came from the wind mills and not the coal, think about all the power and fossil fuels used to produce those giant wind mills used to generate such a small amount of electricity.

In the end, gas vs electric engines, currently, they're about the same, or even worse than gas engines because of the processes it took to produce the electricity.

Roninson · Post by **Roninson** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:03 pm

I considered a used electric scooter (w/o pedals - around $1800) before I decided on a gas scooter. As others have mentioned, the distance vs. charge & time-to-charge are really what keeps electric scooters for being practical.

Bottom line, if you're unable to charge your scoot during your travels, you have to calculate your half distance for each trip to determine whether or not it's a trip you can make.

Post by **jmazza** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:07 pm

jfrost2 wrote:Because electric scooters last 20 miles, have a top speed of 30 down a steep hill, require pedaling up hills and are chinese junk.

Wow Frosty you say some crazy entertaining stuff on MB sometimes but this has got to be near the top of the list.

I realize (or hope) you're using hyperbole, but when a member is asking for some facts to help a friend arrive at a purchasing decision, having this kind of stuff in the answers isn't helpful at all.

Electric vehicles aren't that great? Sure there are arguments plenty against them but the Prius isn't a great car? Really?

And the only electric scooters there are cheap Chinese junk that will break in a month? Even the Vectrix I posted about above? Even though this favorable review from motorcycle.com claims it has parts made in the USA, Italy, as well as China?

Again, I fully agree the technology is not there just yet to make an electric scooter a solid choice for many riders, but given enough research and consumer drive, it could be very very soon.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:13 pm

Ah the vectrix didn't even cross my mind when thinking about electric bikes. That bike is pretty good quality and does last longer. I'm thinking of a different type of electric scooter which can be counted as a bicycle in many states, even though it has a similar shaped body. From seeing these all the time in Toronto and seeing the specs, they aren't very good, and a lot of the ones I see are pretty junky.

But bringing up the Vectrix is a good point. It's probably one of the only good electric scooters there are as in quality and range the battery can travel.

But cost is still expensive, a gas powered bike is still cheaper and faster.

Also, the prius isn't a 100% electric vehicle, it runs off half electric, half gasoline depending on the speed and rpm's to sustain the best mileage but to also provide the desired speed. True 100% electric vehicles that cannot run off gasoline are not that great currently unless you are rich and can afford one.

The current 2010 model prius just released runs of a ECVT half gas half electric engine. It gets 51mpg, I'm assuming it runs off gasoline since it's burns fuel.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:30 pm

German engineering. Gotta love it. I can't wait to see this thing come out!

http://www.e-max-scooter.com/products/e-max_190l.php
E-max. Not chinese at all. This "coming soon" model of theirs is looking to be comparable to our 125cc Buddies.

Not a clue about price, though.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:32 pm

In theory, electric vehicles will be better for the environment because they can be charged using whatever power source we use for the electric grid (solar, wind, fission, fusion, geothermal, hydrocarbon fuels with thoroughly scrubbed and sequestered emissions, hamsters, etc). There are environmental issues to be dealt with in producing and disposing of the batteries involved, but that's not a global-warming issue, just old fashioned poison/pollution. In the long run, 100%-electric vehicles will contribute far less to global warming, which is why the US government will give you a tax credit for buying a new electric vehicle (the formula for how much is a little complicated), but only a sales tax deduction for buying a new gas-burner.

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:47 pm

Becktastic wrote:Hey everyone! I was talking to a guy about scooters the other day and he said he wanted an electric. I said he should get a gas scooter instead, he asked me why...and I didn't really have an answer. So, gas is superior to electric right? Why? (Aside from the obvious "Buddy's are the best and they are gas." Answer)

Thanks!

Ask about electric in about 10yrs,then maybe there will be something to talk about.Right now,overpriced and very limited range.Take specs on any electric vehicle with a grain of salt as they are done under perfect conditions. So if for example range was said to be 60 miles,in the real world it would be more like 45 miles.Just saying not yet.Be patient.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:34 pm

I've read a couple of reviews of electric scooters and both mentioned lack of range and lack of speed as negative issues. Both reported range of about 40 miles using partial throttle and maximum speeds of around 30 mph. In my opinion (for whatever it's worth), electric scooters aren't quite ready for prime time. What if one lives in an apartment, on the tenth floor? How does one charge the battery? If your round-trip is further than say 35 miles, will there be a place to plug-in your charger at your destination; assuming one brings along a fast charger, which by-the-way, will be quite large. And as Jfrost2 mentioned, depending upon it's source, electricity isn't always clean. Also, the infrastructure to support electrical vehicles isn't in place yet not to mention battery technology. Lithium batteries are good, but the cost-per-watt is still quite high. What we need are dilithium crystal power sources with flux capacitors. Where's Scotty when we need him? BTW: the new Startrek movie is awsome, especially on an IMAX screen!

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:00 pm

The thing about electricity is that it CAN be clean. It has that ability. Gasoline is ALWAYS dirty. The only way I know of to have "clean gas" is 100% biodiesel...and a diesel scoot there ain't.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:52 pm

Here's the thing about those cheap, junky Chinese electric scooters…

Very few companies in the US and Europe are working on affordable and practical electric 2-wheeled transportation. Quite a few in China and SE Asia are. Battery technology is improving rapidly and soon such vehicles will be a much more feasible option for many people. The average commute in America has been increasing but is still only 16 miles. An electric scooter that will do 40-50mph and still have a reliable range of 40-50 miles per charge would probably do the trick.

Those Chinese and SE Asian companies may wind up with the technological edge here. As with gas scooters, just because the quality has historically been poor, don't expect it will stay that way forever.

It's not inconceivable to think that there could be major incentives (tax rebates or others) passed by states or the federal government in the next 10 years that would give a huge boost to all-electric vehicles. As is, unless they really get moving, US and European companies could be caught with their pants down with nothing to offer in the 2-wheeler market.

Unfortunately, no tax incentive will ever be so much that I could afford a $69,000 Mission One.

Finally, a sportbike for me!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:49 am

ericalm wrote:Those Chinese and SE Asian companies may wind up with the technological edge here. As with gas scooters, just because the quality has historically been poor, don't expect it will stay that way forever.

It wasn't that long ago (within my lifetime) that "Japanese car" meant "unreliable junk", but today Japanese companies arguably make some of the best cars on the road. The People's Republic of China already makes more cars than the U.S. and that wouldn't be happening if all they did was blow up.

As for electric scooters and cars in particular, Southeast Asia is in many ways the perfect market to develop those in: too crowded for full-size cars and little demand for autobahn/interstate performance.

nissanman · Post by **nissanman** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:54 am

Just thought I'd throw in that a Prius is a full parallel hybrid. It can run on electric ( but can not be charged by plugging it in) gas or a combination of both. A series hybrid can't separate their power sources. I could get into the two generators that the system uses blah blah blah but it gets boring. The real beauty is that Toyota can tweak the system for new technology as it comes out. Just plug in a new battery, engine, or motors and voila

It's setup expecting the technology to advance.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:08 am

The Piaggio/Vespa plug-in hybrids are also parallel. Oddly, the first model that will come on the market (in Europe) with this engine is the MP3. They had prototypes with other models when they were unveiled two years ago. Maybe because the batteries took up all the underseat storage on the other models?

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:20 am

Both of the electric scooters I read about used lead (Ag) based batteries which may explain why their range was so poor. If I remember correctly, the Vectrix uses Lithium batteries which has a much higher watt-per-pound rating which would also explain why it costs so much.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:32 am

babblefish wrote:Both of the electric scooters I read about used lead (Ag) based batteries which may explain why their range was so poor. If I remember correctly, the Vectrix uses Lithium batteries which has a much higher watt-per-pound rating which would also explain why it costs so much.

The Vectrix uses a NiMH battery. From what I hear, its range is easily halved by traveling at pretty decent speeds.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:47 am

ericalm wrote:
babblefish wrote:Both of the electric scooters I read about used lead (Ag) based batteries which may explain why their range was so poor. If I remember correctly, the Vectrix uses Lithium batteries which has a much higher watt-per-pound rating which would also explain why it costs so much.
The Vectrix uses a NiMH battery. From what I hear, its range is easily halved by traveling at pretty decent speeds.

Wow! Since Lithium batteries are rapidly coming down in price, they should really look into using them instead because they have almost twice the watts-per-pound when compared to NiMh.

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:30 am

Problem with most battery operated devices is an issue that as you increase the discharge rate of the batteries, the efficiency goes down. Study the Peukert's Equation and you will understand this effect. So the faster you discharge the batteries, the less efficient they are in simple terms.

Also the drag goes up by the square of speed but horsepower required goes up by the cube when talking solely about aerodynamic drag. As a result electrical vehicles using a self-contained power supply (i.e. batteries) are always going to be challenged by trying to go at high speeds. Electric motors typically generate a lot of torque at 0 rpm so they have great acceleration from rest but typically don't make a lot HP without a lot of work and quite a bit of current.

Every do any arc welding with a pair of battery cables and a battery? There is a lot of energy in a battery so there is not without risk and safety considerations as well. Lithium based batteries also can be very dangerous and pose a great fire risk. Additionally almost all batteries don't perform as well in cold temps. Ask all the Prius owners how well their cars perform in Minnesota in the winter??? Many are in the low 30 mpg range or worse.

I personally would rather see a different type of motor in a scooter. I happen to be a big fan of diesels. They've come a long ways. A few years ago I rode a diesel motorcycle in India. It was 250cc and they owner claimed he got about 200 mpg. I can't verify that claim. I can say that I got over 150 mpg while riding it. It was a bit clattery but it did spark my imagination. It had great torque and was really a blast to ride. Put a small turbo on it, make it water cooled and it could be a awesome little powerplant for a scooter. The water cooling would make it more quiet and the bodywork would help out too. A small 250cc turbo diesel scooter could return well over 100 mpg and probably push something like a Honda Reflex bodied scooter to over 100 mph as well. Why ride an electric scoot? No batteries to dispose of and little environmental impact. A 5 gallon tank would easily take you over 500 mile!

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:46 am

I purchased an electric bike from R. Martin in Texas, and it's held up well. It uses four motorcycle batteries in series (48v) and takes about four hours to regenerate, using lead-acid technology (from the Devonian period). As for the new technology for hybrid vehicles, the following was stated by a reviewer in England regarding the new, Honda Insight hybrid....and he pretty much skewers the environmental advantages of the Nickel-Metal Hydride technology embraced by the environmentalists...

"The nickel for the battery has to come from somewhere. Canada, usually. It has to be shipped to Japan, not on a sailing boat, I presume. And then it must be converted, not in a tree house, into a battery, and then that battery must be transported, not on an ox cart, to the Insight production plant in Suzuka. And then the finished car has to be shipped, not by Thor Heyerdahl, to Britain, where it can be transported, not by wind, to the home of a man with a beard who thinks he’s doing the world a favour.

Another issue to be dealt with is disposing of the battery packs once they have been depleted, go into reversal, and are useless. Yucca Mountain, anyone? All we are doing is moving fossil fuel pollution from one area to another, without additional non-fossil fuel energy supplies, we are producing energy to power them using conventional energy sources.

Anyone seen the South Park episode about the "Pious"?

One of the reasons the Prius has been so popular is that it stands out, has an unconventional look, unlike the Hybrid Honda Civic that, without the emblem on the trunk, looks like any other internal combustion vehicle. Doesn't proclaim the owner's commitment to the environment.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:56 am

Taz wrote:I personally would rather see a different type of motor in a scooter. I happen to be a big fan of diesels. They've come a long ways. A few years ago I rode a diesel motorcycle in India. It was 250cc and they owner claimed he got about 200 mpg. I can't verify that claim. I can say that I got over 150 mpg while riding it. It was a bit clattery but it did spark my imagination. It had great torque and was really a blast to ride. Put a small turbo on it, make it water cooled and it could be a awesome little powerplant for a scooter. The water cooling would make it more quiet and the bodywork would help out too. A small 250cc turbo diesel scooter could return well over 100 mpg and probably push something like a Honda Reflex bodied scooter to over 100 mph as well. Why ride an electric scoot? No batteries to dispose of and little environmental impact. A 5 gallon tank would easily take you over 500 mile!

After I made the comment about no diesel scooters, I did a google search just to make sure I wasn't putting my foot in my mouth. Found a company that's been making diesel motorcycles for the military: HDT

http://www.dieselmotorcycles.com/company.htm

Because of their military contracts demands, they've had to delay production of their civilian models, according to the website. But...lookit!!! I want one! Convert to run 100% biodiesel, maybe tinker with switching to a clutchless transmission, such as either a CVT or something like Honda's new DN-01...oh, my.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:04 am

Those environmental advantage analysis shreds have always seemed off to me. I think it's over-analyzing to the point of becoming bad logic. Most of those seem to assume that the material is the ONLY thing being shipped, or that it's being shipped in small quantity, or SOLEY for the use in the targeted product. Realistically, that's not the case. That petrol used to ship the car back here is powering a freighter ship or something like it...with a full hold. You think it's going to sail with a single car? The cost of that is spread out across the entire cargo: at which point, the use of that car will very likely offset that and more in it's functioning lifetime. You get where I'm going.

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:16 am

...however, I just wanted to point out that there was more to manufacturing a hybrid car battery than just going to Wal-Mart and magically, nickel would appear on the shelf and taa-daa, you have a battery. There's a reason that the Canadian nickle is magnetic--they put more nickel in it because it's available in large quantities, through strip mining. Google the area where this nickel is mined. Makes ya think....wouldn't want to eat a fish (even Blinkey from the Simpsons) caught it those waters. Nasty green stuff.

I don't mean to bad-mouth new technologies. Just like the Wankel engine, it sounded good at the time. Too bad the seals in that design weren't cooperative and wore out too quickly. Another concern about the high-voltage systems in the hybrids, if you are in an accident, and the jaws of life are called upon to yank your carcass out of your Prius, one wrong move and ZAPP....the EMT guy is toast. There is a lot of current in that pack.

This technology is still evolving. Lithium batteries show promise. They re-charge quickly, but are still expensive...and give off heat when they are naughty....

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:28 am

Tenchi wrote:One of the reasons the Prius has been so popular is that it stands out, has an unconventional look, unlike the Hybrid Honda Civic that, without the emblem on the trunk, looks like any other internal combustion vehicle. Doesn't proclaim the owner's commitment to the environment.

…which is why the new Honda Insight looks exactly like a Prius.

People will equivocate and nitpick and argue and one-up. But some things are better than others—for now. There's no perfect clean portable power source for vehicles. Even if you draw it from the sun, you have to store it somewhere. (Maybe someday we'll have solar and organic batteries using ATP to store and transfer energy through some clean chemical process. But not anytime soon.) If everyone walked, there'd just be growing complaints about the environmental impact of food production.

I think most car and related tech companies are well aware that hybrids and many of the other fairly recent developments on the market now are intermediary technologies. The benefit of all those Priuses—regardless of owners' motivation for buying—is that they show large companies that there's significant and growing demand for greener vehicles. The market encourages further R&D into cleaner tech. We're making progress and that's pretty important.

There may not be an immediate huge leap from gas to whatever comes next, but while we wait for the technology to catch up we can certainly do better. I'd much rather have people buying Priuses because they're trendy than Range Rovers.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:32 am

You make good points, to be sure.

It definately is something that needs to be considered, so as to minimize the negative impact and cut the environmental cost. If things were processed and produced closer to where they're harvested (or in this case, mined). Find better methods of procuring raw materials, etc.

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:33 am

We have the technology....we can build him, better, faster, stronger...Oh, wait, that's the intro for "The Six Million Dollar Man". These days, all that would get Lee Majors is botox and liposuction....ah, inflation. I think that fuel cells will be coming, and be the norm, once we can get around the expense of extracting hydrogen cheaply from water. Of course, that will raise the price of Evian! Which is "Naive", spelled backwards.

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:46 am

If you want a hybrid, they really should be going after a diesel/electric hybrid rather than gasoline. My diesel car trounces the Prius(es) (what is the plural from Prii) in mileage and performance. Much more fun to drive and don't need a hazmat crew in a car accident.

Problem with electricity is storage. No really great storage technology exits. Batteries are very cumbersome and all that stored energy is very dangerous to deal with in an accident. My cousin lost his finger when he was unfortunate enough to make contact between his wedding band, a positive battery terminal and a wrench that happened to contact ground (in the electrical sense).

My car runs on biodiesel or french fry oil when I can get it an filter it. I don't need to stand out and make a statement by driving a Prius that screams "I am greener than thou!!!!" One thing all my cars/trucks have in common, they are are very fast YET fuel efficient. I like to have my cake and eat it too! That is why a Tesla actually appeals to me. Don't thing its worth the money but it does appeal to me.

The Vectrix has too limited of a range to be useful. Nice idea but too expensive and the technology hasn't caught up to the real world needs of most people yet. If you are willing to drive it at 40 mph, maybe you have tolerable range but not really adequate.

As for the diesel motorcycle, my girlfriend will likely kill me if I buy one more "toy". Curse you Cheshire!!! Another toy to add to the list!!! Who needs a bigger house, I just need a bigger garage...

kazigami · Post by **kazigami** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:59 am

Has anyone else see the movie "who killed the electric car"? I think it would be a good buy for people with a garage or something where they could charge it. Apartment folks like me, hmmm... I think it could work, but I'll wait awhile before I buy one.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:00 am

I like the diesels… I'd be driving a VW TDI if they'd been available in CA when I got a car last year.

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:09 am

Diesels are pretty much verboten here in the people's republic of Kalifornia. I remember the old VW diesels rattling down the street, blue smoke spewing out of the tail pipe, but the technology has gone a long way since then. We have CARB (California Air Research Board) telling us what we CAN'T drive here. Most of the Chinese Scoots aren't sold here because of the cost to get them "certified", and the Genuine Stella, a two-stroke, is off limits. I had a 1973 GT 550 Suzuki Triple two-stroke that would have given them the vapors.....of course, it only got 40 mpg...of oil. Just kidding! Guess it was a hybrid before it's time! It burned gas...and oil.

If the state would propose a 'gift", that is, a reduction of registration costs and licensing, for fuel-efficient vehicles, it would entice more people to conserve gasoline and buy higher mileage cars. That was the mantra back in the mid-nineteen seventies, that it was patriotic to drive small cars. I remember the Ford Fiesta, or was it the Festiva, got great mileage, and was a stick shift. On the down side, there was the Chevy Chevette, that got over 400 miles to the gallon....because you were pushing it more than driving it. Thank goodness for the rear window defroster...your hands stayed warm while you pushed it up the driveway. Who came up with the idea of a instrument panel that was using integrated circuits instead of wires? Must have been Ralph Nader.

And don't get me started on the Ford Pinto and Chevy Vega. One was a time bomb-the Pinto, with Firestone 500 radials, to boot--and the Vegas rusted out on the showroom floor. Try to find either of them on the road today. And the AMC Hornet---the seats were killers. Bent you over so far that your chin was on the steering wheel.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:12 am

Aw, come on Taz. Someone has to share in my misery!

You're safe for a little while. They're not producing for civilians at the moment, only military. Insert reminder about avoiding politics here.

I loved my VW Jetta TDI, except when it came to maintenance and repair costs. There were several engine things that had to be watched like a hawk or else I had to pay minimum $500 in repair. Happened to me about 3 times a year for a couple years, then I had to sell it because I couldn't afford to keep it. It was a '99 model. I wonder if they've fixed those issues since then...?

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:18 am

I grew up in SoCal. It is sad but when I lived and worked in Russia I had more freedom than the Socialist State Kalifornia has become. Diesels would have been a great solution to many of California's problems. Biggest issue was particulate matter but the filters they have now eliminate most of that. The system in the Mercedes Bluetec diesels is world class. The main reasons most diesels had smoke is when they were "over fueled" by giving them more fuel than was necessary for the RPM/power required. Modern FI systems eliminated most of that and particulate traps helped even mnore. Direct injection diesels improved on HP, torque and emissions even more.

Heck, Germany is very environmentally biased and over 55% of ALL cars in Germany sold new are now diesels. A diesel sports car is not an oxymoron. I was living there and had a very nice BMW 330d with a nice little chip. Great acceleration, comparable to an M3 or M5 and 50+mpg on the autobahn! Wasn't easy on rear tires but it reminded me of driving an old muscle car when I disabled the stability control and lit up the rear tires.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:23 am

Tenchi wrote:Diesels are pretty much verboten here in the people's republic of Kalifornia. I remember the old VW diesels rattling down the street, blue smoke spewing out of the tail pipe, but the technology has gone a long way since then. We have CARB (California Air Research Board) telling us what we CAN'T drive here.

Not anymore. You can buy the new diesels in CA, including the VW TDIs. They're much cleaner than before and pass CARB easily.

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:23 am

Cheshire wrote:I loved my VW Jetta TDI, except when it came to maintenance and repair costs. There were several engine things that had to be watched like a hawk or else I had to pay minimum $500 in repair. Happened to me about 3 times a year for a couple years, then I had to sell it because I couldn't afford to keep it. It was a '99 model. I wonder if they've fixed those issues since then...?

Keep good fuel in a TDI, change the timing belts and the will run a long time. I have a HIGHLY modified TDI with over 145,000 miles. It still runs like a champ. It is fast/quick and not just in the diesel sense of the word. It will run 13 second quarter miles and still get almost 50 mpg on the highway. The earlier TDI models had issues with replacing the timing belts at about 30,000 miles but they upped that in later models. Keep the fuel and air filters clean and there isn't much more to do other than change the oil and coolant.

I just figured out the ideal electric scooter. All it needs is a small nuclear reactor. Heck the Vectrix is heavy enough already you could probably squeeze one in there and nobody would notice the weight gain!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:11 am

ericalm wrote:If everyone walked, there'd just be growing complaints about the environmental impact of food production.

Americans as whole have adequate energy stores around their waists to power a lot more walking, without increasing food production.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:40 am

Tenchi wrote:That was the mantra back in the mid-nineteen seventies, that it was patriotic to drive small cars. I remember the Ford Fiesta, or was it the Festiva, got great mileage, and was a stick shift.

In the 70s that'd be the Fiesta. The Festiva was a 1990s car; I had one and it got 40mpg, plus it had more cargo room than two sedans. But it was designed to be - and look - cheap, so style-conscious buyers would get something bigger and more expensive - and inefficient - instead.

Post by **illnoise** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:24 pm

The way I see it, there's the Vectrix, which is pretty great but still has some flaws and is very expensive, there are the retrofitted regular scooters that kinda aren't there yet, but like Eric said, will be someday (that includes the electric Buddy, which actually sounds like it's available in europe, but the range and power is kinda depressing), there are the Piaggio hybrids, which we've been waiting three years for, and will also be very expensive, and there are electric bikes, which are getting pretty good and are more practical (as I see it) than a scooter...

I like the type that are bike-ish, but not really designed to be pedaled... I tried an EGo from several years ago, that one was kinda lame, but they've got better since then: http://www.egovehicles.com/

And I really like this one from Ultra Motor: http://www.ultramotor.com/US

And Schwinn and (I think) Electra and other bicycle brands have come out with pretty decent electric-assist bicycles, (more like a regular bicycle) that are sorta too expensive for what they are, but I bet those start coming down in price.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:45 pm

ericalm wrote:
Tenchi wrote:Diesels are pretty much verboten here in the people's republic of Kalifornia. I remember the old VW diesels rattling down the street, blue smoke spewing out of the tail pipe, but the technology has gone a long way since then. We have CARB (California Air Research Board) telling us what we CAN'T drive here.
Not anymore. You can buy the new diesels in CA, including the VW TDIs. They're much cleaner than before and pass CARB easily.

Not to get political, but I found this ironic. Just yesterday or the day before, President Obama signed a bill saying by 2020 (was it 2016 or 2020?) that all cars must get 35-40MPG.

Right now in europe, there are TONS of disel hatchback cars. Ford makes a focus like hatchback that runs of disel, it gets 70MPG for gallon of disel. But it fails US emission testing so Ford cant import it to sell.

With emission laws in 2010 becoming even stricter like california, I doubt we'll ever see the 70MPG disels europe has had for years.

Post by **polianarchy** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:42 pm

Can a driver convert any diesel-powered automotive to run on vegetable oil? I vote for diesel-powered scooters. Rallys will smell like french fries!

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:50 pm

Technically you can run straight vegetable oil and get the same or similar mileage, but it's not a good idea because vegetable oil gets gummy too quick and can clog fuel lines and carbs very easily in colder weather too.

That's why people convert to biodisel and have heaters under the hood of their cars and upgrade fuel lines to be larger.

But for fun, if you drain the tank of all disel, and add a gallon of vegetable oil, you will find the car will start.

I've seen them do this in mythbusters before in a controlled experiment. They were able to test drive a 70-80's disel car in a track. They rigged up their own 1 gallon fuel tank above the hood of the car and drove until they were out of vegetable oil. They got 30MPG out of the oil, and 30MPG out of disel.

I've also seen cars that can do this, and read many tutorials online. One of them is a old chevy truck from 1974 that gets 40MPG off biodisel now.

They resorted to disel because they wanted to see if pure compressed hydrogen would make a disel car run. They got it to run, but the engine compartment caught on fire and they had to stop before Hindenburg was reenacted.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:54 pm

(in my best Jules from Pulp fiction voice) "Check out the big brain on Taz!"

Post by **ericalm** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:34 pm

illnoise wrote:And I really like this one from Ultra Motor: http://www.ultramotor.com/US

My Genuine dealer carries these; I've ridden one. They're pretty interesting, though no substitute for a scooter. I have friends who rely solely on public transportation, though, and this would be perfect for them because it can go on a bus or a train.

polianarchy wrote:Can a driver convert any diesel-powered automotive to run on vegetable oil? I vote for diesel-powered scooters. Rallys will smell like french fries!

Pretty much, yeah. They're actually pretty popular around here, particularly the old Mercedes diesels which are easiest to convert. The engines will run on just about anything: (filtered) waste vegetable oil, new vegetable oil, diesel, biodiesel. They do smell like fries (which is why I call 'em Frymobiles); on the scooter I can smell one a block away.

Modern Buddy

Gas Vs Electric Scooters

Gas Vs Electric Scooters

Re: Gas Vs Electric Scooters

The tale of the Hybrid Insight.....

Chesire, you made some good points....

Re: The tale of the Hybrid Insight.....

Good for you, EricCalm....

Re: The tale of the Hybrid Insight.....