magnet for tricking stop lights

[sputnik2]

I put this magnet on that I saw in the scoot magazine this spring. could this magnet be draining my battery. my scooters is only a year old and my battery shouldn't go dead in a week and a half on not being userd. could it be the magnet?

[Ray Knobs]

Wrap it in tinfoil

[Vic]

These magnets have pretty much been debunked as snake oil.

As to if it is draining your battery, no clue, but you aren't doing anything like riding for only very short distances (not giving it enough time to recharge after starting) or leaving the keys in the ignition while the scoot is not running, are you?

cheers,
-v

[kazigami]

I heard those boxes were useless. Yesterday morning I got sick of waiting at this light. There was no cars coming so I knew I'd be there forever. So I drove up on the side walk and hit the crosswalk button and got back on the street. Worked great

[bgwss]

Now that is ingenuity!

[sputnik2]

my average trip is minimum 10 miles. Don't leave the key in ignition.

[Kaos]

I heard those boxes were useless. Yesterday morning I got sick of waiting at this light. There was no cars coming so I knew I'd be there forever. So I drove up on the side walk and hit the crosswalk button and got back on the street. Worked great

Heh, I've parked in the lane, gotten off and gone to push the button before I've never actually RIDDEN onto the sidewalk though.

[rajron]

Close your eyes and no one will see you run the light

...a magnet will not effect the battery

[sputnik2]

why would a battery that's only a year old loose it's charge in a week and a half.

[pyrocpu]

Some states will allow motorcycle/scoot riders to legally run the red light if the under-ground sensor can't "read" your motorcycle/scoot... check into your local statutes...

Incidentally, your MSF instructor should have made mention of local law peculiarities...

[/i]

[rajron]

Low on fluid
Shorted
Not properly charged

[digital-entropy]

Close your eyes and no one will see you run the light

...a magnet will not effect the battery

No one but the cameras...

[CitizenX]

Are you running an alarm? or antyhing that is "on" all the time? I'm thinking it's just a bad cell in the battey.

[sputnik2]

nothings on when I'm not running it. however I don't make it a practice of turning the run switch to off. I usually turn it off with the key. would that do anything?

[kazigami]

I also ride right up to mail drop boxes to send mail. Man, this scooter sure is makin' me lazy!

[bpsalinas]

I hook my dog's leash to the helmet latch and take her for walks.

[Cheshire]

As long as you're turning the ignition to "off", you shouldn't need to hit the kill switch, electrically speaking. Hmm. did you do any lighting modification, like deadlight-to-running-lights?

[bpsalinas]

Sometimes I ride into the Subway to order sandwiches.

[sputnik2]

no extra lights. The only thins I've added to my St Tropez is a windshield, a rack and trunk. And the magnet, which I'm going to have taken back off.

[Vic]

my average trip is minimum 10 miles. Don't leave the key in ignition.

I guess the first thing I would do would be to run it to the shop and ask them to take a look at it to make sure the battery is not dry (or low) and get a battery tender, take the scoot home and hook up the tender and then go out the next day and see if it is charged up.

If the battery is charged up after being hooked to the tender then you will know that it is capable of holding the charge and eliminate that as one of the problems.

If you continue to have the problem after getting the thing charged up and riding longer distances then you might need to have it checked to see if there is a bigger issue.

I am not an expert by any stretch, but this seems reasonable to me.

-v

[DennisD]

why would a battery that's only a year old loose it's charge in a week and a half.

Because the original battery sucks. Mine died and was replaced under warranty with an upgraded battery by the dealer. He explained that it was worth a couple of bucks to them not to have to keep changing out batteries. Fine by me.

For short distances why not develop the habit of using the kick start? The Buddy is an easy starter and once you get the hang of it, the kick starter is as fast as the electric start. Its just a matter of cultivating a new habit. You may end up using your electric start as a backup instead of the other way around.

[iMoses]

10 miles may not be long enough to keep your battery charged... though I only have a 14 mile one way trip to work and have not had any issues.

[kazigami]

I hook my dog's leash to the helmet latch and take her for walks.

Hey, let's have a contest to see who's more lazy!

[ericalm]

First things first: Check all of your connections. It's possible a cable's just loose.

As far as whether magnets work, well… Until recently, every post I read said they were bunk. Then someone posted here that theirs worked quite well. I'm certainly not going to accuse them of lying! There are different types and designs of sensors for lights. Many have sensors that don't work. Many are just on timers. So I think I can definitively say that magnets may work for some but don't for most.

[babblefish]

The magnet trick works for me!
There's a stop light that I have to ride through on the way home from work that never worked for me until I put a Neodimium magnet on the bottom of my scooter. After putting it on, the light changes for me everytime. I bought this off of eBay for about $10. It's fairly strong as I found out when I stuck it to my refrigerator. Besides almost getting a blood blister on my finger when it slammed into the door, I couldn't pull it off by just pulling straight up - I had to slide if off the edge of the door. The only down side to it is that I have to occasionally stop to pull off old mufflers, bicycles and other metal trash picked-up from the road...


Magnet is the rectangular silver thing.

[verdecalavera]

Some states will allow motorcycle/scoot riders to legally run the red light if the under-ground sensor can't "read" your motorcycle/scoot... check into your local statutes.[/i]

from an article in USA Today here.

In May (08), South Carolina became the seventh state to give motorcyclists license to proceed with caution after stopping when the device that causes the light to change from red to green doesn't activate, according to Imre Szauter, government affairs manager for the American Motorcyclist Association.

North Carolina passed a similar law in 2007. Wisconsin (2006), Idaho (2006) Arkansas (2005), Tennessee (2003) and Minnesota (2002), all have passed laws the past six years, Szauter said. Bills have been introduced for the same purpose in Georgia, Missouri and Oklahoma, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures and the legislative websites for those states.

We run 'em here in alabama all the time, but it would be nice to be able to run them without fear of being pulled over.

[B02S4]

...The only down side to it is that I have to occasionally stop to pull off old mufflers, bicycles and other metal trash picked-up from the road...

[ilektron]

As an electrical engineer I have a need to explain the magnet thing. Odds are, they won't make a difference. The way the stop light sensors work is that they place large loops of wire in the ground. They have a free running oscillator that settles at a specific frequency. When you pull a piece of metal over the loop of wire, the piece of metal (aka, your car) starts conducting electricity and changes the inductance (properties of the loop in the circuit), which results in the frequency the circuit oscillates at to shift. The difference in frequency means a large chunk of metal is somewhere around the coil of wire.

In simpler terms, it works kind of like those induction stove tops, or those wireless induction chargers for you iphone. The induction stove tops have similar circuitry which detects how much metal is above the stove, so that if you wave your wedding ring (which just might be gold and very conductive) it won't get red hot. It will only activate for a large piece of metal, such as a pot or pan.

Now to the point. It detects how conductive the things around it is. Not the magnetic field of the object. The only chance that the magnet has is when it is moving past the coil.

Maybe if you put the magnet on your rear wheel, put it on the center stand, and rev-ed it like a demon...

[babblefish]

Then how do you explain the fact that putting a magnet on my scoot does cause the light sensor to trip? I've driven through a particular intersection for months without being able to trip the light even if I put my side stand down, but after I put the magnet on, it trips every time.

[ericalm]

Then how do you explain the fact that putting a magnet on my scoot does cause the light sensor to trip? I've driven through a particular intersection for months without being able to trip the light even if I put my side stand down, but after I put the magnet on, it trips every time.

I would think the explanation is that slapping a heavy chunk of conductive metal—magnetized or not—may achieve the same results. I'm staying pretty agnostic on the magnet thing, though. As I said above, I'm not going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't work for those who claim it does.

At the very least, you won't have to worry about being attacked by sharks while on your Buddy.

[babblefish]

I would have thought that if it was just a matter of getting more metal down lower, my putting the sidestand down would have done the trick, but it doesn't. And, the magnet is smaller than my sidestand. Oh well, one of nature's many oddities.

[ericalm]

I would have thought that if it was just a matter of getting more metal down lower, my putting the sidestand down would have done the trick, but it doesn't. And, the magnet is smaller than my sidestand. Oh well, one of nature's many oddities.

There's probably much more conductive metal in that magnet than the sidestand. The sidestand is already pretty low; I'm not sure tapping it would do much of anything. I usually tap my center stand.

Reading over the many blog and forum posts about this and possible solutions, it seems that: 1. everyone is an expert; 2. people are split on whether or not magnets work; 3. there are probably other ways to trigger the sensors without adding a magnet or metal mass to the bottom of the scooter.

There are several types of designs for light sensors. Most are inductive loops, but these use a variety of designs which detect and react to vehicles differently. Where and how you position your scooter has a lot of effect on whether it's detected. An inductive loop sensor measures inductive capacity, which changes when a mass of conductive metal is above it. Some utilize magnetometers, which may be more sensitive to magnets such as this.

The lowdown: Magnet or not, more metal placed lower will trigger the light. But first, check out the type of sensor and simply try positioning the scooter in the right place (see links below). Another suggestion I haven't tried: Kill the engine and restart over the sensor.

There are a number of patent applications for devices to trigger inductive loops. None of these use magnets as primary trigger. (Some use magnets or electromagnetism as part of a larger apparatus.)

How to position a bike (or scooter):
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledr ... /green.htm

Snopes.com discussion:
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=330814

Patents:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/56525 ... ption.html
http://www.plan-bravo.com/lefty.html

Further reading:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledr ... ection.htm
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question234.htm
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8i.2.html
http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/septoct98/loop.htm

[babblefish]

Just for giggles, I'm going to try waving the magnet by itself over the sensor at my troublesome intersection. Of course, I'll do it during a time when there's no traffic so I won't get run over or annoy the heck out of someone.

[ilektron]

My only guess is that they changed the sensitivity in the sensor the same day you put the magnet on. Obviously. : ) Actually, I've had lights change whether they trigger for me or not.

I would be interested if just you waving your magnet over the sensor would trigger it. I've been meaning to take my arduino, breadboard, and a couple transistors out to see if I can do the same thing.

I hope I don't come across snobby (by being a self proclaimed expert), my father is a scientist and that is how I grew up debating.

The only real way to tell is experimentation, which, so far, I have been too lazy to do.

[Vic]

The only down side to it is that I have to occasionally stop to pull off old mufflers, bicycles and other metal trash picked-up from the road...

I know! You are now tripping the intersection induction coil because you are dragging half a car under your scooter when you arrive at said intersection and all that metal that has been attracted to the super-magnet is triggering the light to change.



-v

[Vic]

In simpler terms, it works kind of like those induction stove tops, or those wireless induction chargers for you iphone. The induction stove tops have similar circuitry which detects how much metal is above the stove, so that if you wave your wedding ring (which just might be gold and very conductive) it won't get red hot. It will only activate for a large piece of metal, such as a pot or pan.

I don't know about you guys but I am going going to bungee cord a 16" frying pan to the bottom of my scooter as soon as I get home!

-v

[Portland_Rider]

It is possible that there also are a number of other factors here that may or not contribute to the effectiveness of using magnets to trip the light.

It is very conceivable that there is more than one road sensor manuacturer out there using more than one model of electrical tripping device that is in the street. Assuming that roads can be and are built somewhat differently with different materials using different state building regs or requirements that can also have additional different results. There may also be differences in the magnets too.

As for the possibity of magnets draining a battery, I have no idea.

[ilektron]

I don't know about you guys but I am going going to bungee cord a 16" frying pan to the bottom of my scooter as soon as I get home!

-v

Make sure its copper bottomed!

[ericalm]

It is very conceivable that there is more than one road sensor manuacturer out there using more than one model of electrical tripping device that is in the street. Assuming that roads can be and are built somewhat differently with different materials using different state building regs or requirements that can also have additional different results. There may also be differences in the magnets too.

Not just conceivable, but verifiable!

Even in a single city, you may encounter various sensors from different companies. I've probably seen 3 recognizable variations in my area. As these were installed over time, probably using a number of funding sources, there's a good chance that the sensors were obtained through separate procurements. Now some cities are moving to more reliable optical sensing, which could mean you're rolling around trying to find a sensor in the street that's not connected.

The one intersection that gives me grief here used to be fine… until they re-coated the street. Rather than repaving in LA, the city has been spraying down a new layer of smooth pavement on the existing surfaces. As a result, it desensitized the loop.

Shutting and off and restarting the engine while positioned over the loop seemed to work this morning, but I need to try it a few more times before I can say it wasn't just coincidence.

[kmtscoot]

I’m an Electrical Engineer too (Cal Poly 1974) and I’m also highly skeptical about the effectiveness of magnets. In my city I can usually trip the inductive loops IF I can see where they are and position my scooter directly in the middle. The problem is I usually can’t see where they are. Some of the optical sensors are now being installed here. Yay! They see me every time.

[C2]

Wrap it in tinfoil

I think I hurt myself laughing at this....

C2

[ericalm]

According to one of the links I posted, you can test an induction loop with a wire, looped several times, about 2ft in diameter, ends connected.

Okay, EE guys: will this really work with insulated wire? I have a few yards of 12g somewhere here…

[kmtscoot]

Eric, the insulation on the wire won’t matter. The air and asphalt are insulators too. When you try it I doubt if you’ll see any effect. A good sized mass of ferrous material, like iron or steel, is what changes the inductance of the loop enough to set it off. Let us know what happens.

[Rob]

I had periodic problems with tripping traffic lights on both the scoot and the bike. Then about 3 weeks ago one of my buddies gave me a tip.

As many others have mentioned, he told me to look for a loop of wire buried in the pavement of the road near the stop line. In our area you can look for the sawcuts in the pavement and they are generally in an octagonal shape. He told me to position the bike directly over, lengthwise, one of the sawcuts (obviously on one of the two that are parallel with your direction of travel).

So far so good. Perhaps it's coincidence, but I have tripped every stop light in the last 3 weeks. I'm guesstimating that previous to that, I'd have 3 to 5 tripping problems each week.

Rob

[kmtscoot]

You're right on Rob. Those saw cuts are where they dropped the loop in. The ones I dealt with were usually only a couple of loops of wire. Pretty simple really. They can be square and trapezoidal too. Try to get in the middle of the loop and hope for the best. Sometimes the sensitivity is set too low in the circuit that monitors the loop. Oh how I would like a foolproof way of tripping those things!

[iwabj]

oops

[iwabj]

oops

[ilektron]

Try to get in the middle of the loop and hope for the best.

Sometimes not the best, google it and you can find suggestions where to put the bike with the different cut patterns. I came across some diagrams that seem to be working at least 95% of the time.

There is still one intersection I have trouble with, though...

[Kaos]

I don't imagine anyone has had luck with iron tipped work boots? Probably not nearly enough mass. . .

Not enough mass. Thats assuming my "Steel Toe" Docs are actually steel toed I've had good luck callously running red lights.... Kidding!

I usually position my bike lengthwise on top of one of the wires, if I can find them. This works 100%.

The problem I have is when they re-pave, and then I can't find the wire, and its also lost some sensitivity due to more pavement on top of it.

Unfortunately this happened at a light I go through almost every day. I left turn directly infront of a police station! I've had to run it quite often, but so far none of the cops have noticed!

[ericalm]

Try to get in the middle of the loop and hope for the best.

Sometimes not the best, google it and you can find suggestions where to put the bike with the different cut patterns. I came across some diagrams that seem to be working at least 95% of the time.

There is still one intersection I have trouble with, though...

Source: http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledr ... /green.htm