Do you carry something for personal defense? (long)

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:27 pm

I'm curious if folks carry anything for personal defense while riding- specifically something like mace. After the latest in a string of incidents, I'm considering my options here.

I commute nearly every weather permitting day about 8 miles each way on my scooter. My route is all through low traffic 35 mph zones.

At least once a week, I'm faced with somebody doing things illegal and stupid to get around me, like passing on a one lane street, passing me on the right on a one way street (in the parking lane), whipping by in my lane if I stray too far to the right, etc.

What's even dumber about this is, especially now with the 70 CC kit, I am typically doing the speed limit or faster keeping up with traffic. For most, I don't think it has anything to do with me being slower, it has to do with me being on a scooter and not really "belonging" on the road.

Last night on the way home, I had another incident. I'm doing 50-55 mph indicated in a 35 of a slight downhill, which means I'm doing AT LEAST 10 over. Its a street with one lane in each direction. I'm not closely paying attention to who is behind me because I'm speeding.

At that moment, I see a car has come up beside me, with two teenage kids. Both give me the finger, yell "frak you," and then the driver swerves back into my lane, cutting me off. I manage to panic stop while laying on the horn, and giving them the finger in a relatively smooth motion.

Once I've regained my bearings, I see that they are stopped at a stop sign about 100 feet ahead (yes, the road ends in a T intersection very shortly after the point that they passed me- even if I was in the way, it would be nothing but 5 seconds of inconvenience). There is no traffic preventing them from moving- they are obviously waiting for me. I stop behind them at the stop sign, by this point it has been about 30 seconds. Still stopped.

Knowing that my choices are either pass them, and open up round two, or deal with the situation on my feet, I stand the bike, get off and approach the car.

They are both full on high school thug wannabe jerkoffs, and both are trying to look tough while also 1 step away from wetting themselves at the prospect of getting the crap knocked out of them.

Both immediately go into "frak you, I'm going to kick your ass" mode, but neither is making any move to exit the car. I love how somehow its cool/tough to sit in a stopped car telling the person standing outside in a full helmet and riding gear how badly you would beat their ass if you had enough guts to step out of the car?

At this point there are people stopped at the light and plenty of witnesses. There were none that would have seen the car swerve into me. I realize if I drag the guy out and start beating on him, I'm going to get the assault charge.

I walk away, get back on the scooter, and pass the guy. Sure enough, he immediately starts tailgating and driving aggressively. At this point I pull out the phone and call 911 while riding, yelling their plate number and my location into the phone, because I can't hear them on the other end.

They see me get on the phone, and finally pull off into an apartment complex.

I get to my house less than a mile away, and call 911 back so they don't waste effort trying to find me. A police officer meets me at my house.

Police officer tells me there isn't much they can do, even with a license number, and that "You can file a complaint, but if you do, he will too, and you are in the wrong as well for giving him the finger. I'll try to serve him a complaint but you need to understand you will probably get one against you, too."

I tell the officer I will gladly file a complaint and will take my chances on a day in court. The officer then goes down to the apartment complex, finds the car, but tells me he can't serve the owner because he doesn't know who the driver is (umm, run the tag?).

I'm really left wondering what I have for options to keep myself safe. With what I do for employment, I get background checked regularly, and can't have an assault charge on my record.

I'm thinking about how useful a thing of mace would have been in that situation. the whole reason I approached the car was because I knew he was going to try another round of vehicular assault if I got in front of him again. But, had I beat him to the point of incapacitation, he'd have a likely hospital bill, and I could expect to be charged.

Had I maced him, he wouldn't be able to drive and follow, and I could get out of range and call the police. I'm sure the police wouldn't like it, but I doubt prosecution would stick- Its self defense. Guy runs me off the road, then stops and then stops and won't continue on his way, leaving me with the choice of going around him and again being in front of a faster vehicle I can't run from. As I see it, the self defense option is incapacitating the driver to keep them from continuing. Driver hurts very bad, but nothing that sitting in a shower for a few hours won't fix.

So, my question. Anybody carry mace with them? Has it worked for you? How have you dealt with stuff like this?

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Fox OC stream spray.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:49 pm

Anachronism,

I completely understand your feelings and I recognize that those two punk-thug wannabes started it.

Respectfully, I think that you were wrong in getting off your scoot. A Jury might have considered that some type of aggressive baiting retaliation on your part. Unfair as it is you are the adult and they are I think (?) minors and that can add to possible jury bias in some cases.

Had you gotten off your scoot, approached the car, and maced him anything could be the result. If he has a bad rap record the police might have understand your action since they operate in the real world and have had run-ins with the same punk before, just maybe. Maybe not. However, a Jury might have convicted you of assault while just maybe giving the driver a fine for unsafe driving.

Sure, they might have been waiting for round #2 at the stop. So swallow your pride and pull-over well behind them for 30 seconds or 3 minutes and let them ride on well ahead of you.

You seem like you can handle yourself in a physical fight. One other thing that matters here isn't their fighting skills compared to yours as it is what weapons they might be carrying in their pockets (and how the law which isn't always just will see it).

What if one or both were Meth-heads and had just bought fully-loaded stolen semi-auto pistols?

If one or both had approached you to pick a fight then of course fight back. What choice does a person have at that time? While I don't carry mace or pepper spray, a stun-gun, or a crow-bar/tire iron that might not be a bad idea for an emergency self-defense only! Be sure to check into the laws in your state for anything you carry and the limits how they can be used.

Ride safe.

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:41 pm

No no no. confronting these little jerks is not the answer. I thought you meant protection for if you get hassled at stoplights by bums, or when parking your scoot. Road rage incidents? You just have to ignore it.

OK- your 50 (70) cc bike is identical on the outside to a 125. Does it have a license plate? If so, and if it is debadged, there's nothing that says you shouldn't be in the traffic lanes. If not, you need to get a license plate. Because- well, you are now over 50cc's, and that decal is not going to cut it anymore. Otherwise- yes you DO have to follow the "moped" laws.

And those punks? Sorry to say, but they picked on you because you probably looked- young, as in under 30. And you rose to the occasion. You can't fix the azzholes in cars. Nothing you say will possibly change the way they drive. Get used to it. You're not gonna be making any citizen's arrests here. The answer is always ride away from trouble. Imagine you are dealing with baboons here. Can you train a baboon in 3 minutes? Absolutely not! Can you say anything to a baboon that will modify it's behavior? No. You can't even effectively threaten a baboon because it doesn't have the concept of "next time".

Now failing all this, and if you DO find yourself in a confrontation, the biggest weapon you have is your cell phone camera Snap a shot of the license plate and the driver. Then have the cops ready on speed dial. Not 911, the local police number.

bluebuddygirl · Post by **bluebuddygirl** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:45 pm

I don't carry anything with me for protection except a phone, when I remember to take it. The phone call was your best defense and honestly you should have done that earlier. I would have called as soon as I saw them waiting at the stop, or even right after they verbally assaulted you before that. You are straddling the line of self-defense and revenge here. In this situation you would have been charged with assault if you had maced them, as they had not left the car and basically had only done some name calling. I understand wanting to do more, but it often only escalates the situation.

Post by **jrsjr** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:08 pm

Do you carry something for personal defense?

I always try to remember to carry one of these...

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:35 pm

In this situation, this may have been your best option:

Followed by a:

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:58 pm

"The better part of valor is discretion." - Falstaff (Wm. Shakespeare)

I understand your reaction. I might have done the same thing in the situation. But the law would not be on your side if you'd been carrying anything for "defense" and used it in a fight. If someone attacks you out of the blue, and you use a weapon of some kind to defend yourself and get away, the law excuses that. But if you can get away from danger, but you don't... and you use a weapon (or even just your fists) against the other person... let's just say that "he started it" isn't a very effective defense.

I won't go so far as to say that this is the only reason I don't own any of your classic "deadly weapon"s (except a car), but it's the one that settles it: If I had it, I might use it.

The best defense against assholes of that sort is twofold: 1) always ride as if they're all out to get you, and 2) get away from them when it turns out that they are.

mojosnmikospapis · Post by **mojosnmikospapis** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:19 pm

I think in MA, if you maced them you would've been the one in trouble. I believe mace can only be used in your favor if you were actually trying to defend yourself. Since you wanted to walk up to them and spray them until they cried like little babies (cuz that's what I would've done too) but like someone else mentioned that may be considered an attack.
Probably the best thing would've been to avoid the situation. Turn off and find a nice curvy road to soothe your thoughts.

broke · Post by **broke** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:22 pm

bluebuddygirl wrote:The phone call was your best defense and honestly you should have done that earlier.

What happened to you totally sucks, but all emotion aside, using the phone is your best defense in a hostile situation.

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:24 pm

TVB wrote: The best defense against assholes of that sort is twofold: 1) always ride as if they're all out to get you, and 2) get away from them when it turns out that they are.

Very well said.

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:55 pm

Look, this isn't about me proving what a tough guy I am, and this isn't about "gee, I want to make sure I win fights."

I'm not sure some of you are understanding the situation in the "just wait and they will go away."

1. Not sure what the rules are in other states, but I have every right to take a lane as a motorized bicycle. Colorado actually just passed a law allowing bicyclists to ride two abreast in a lane, without regards to traffic. I AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO MOVE OVER, RIDE THE SHOULDER, ETC. I make an effort to not hold people up behind me, and ride a route to work about a mile longer to make sure I am on roads that are lightly traveled and with a speed limit low enough that I can ride with any reasonable expectation of keeping with the flow of traffic.

2. This wasn't just a guy passing. These assholes swerved into me, deliberately. This isn't just somebody deciding to illegally pass, this was attempted vehicular assault.

3. I did try to wait it out. It was 30+ seconds before I approached the car. The entire time they are telegraphing their intent to keep it up. I have every expectation that had I turned around, they would have done the same.

4. Yep, in the future, I will use the cellphone faster. I really didn't expect them to back off once I started dialing, but they did. In that sense, it has worth it, but being able to effectively communicate what is happening in a helmet where you cannot hear the 911 operator is tough. My concern with using a cellphone earlier is that I would have to take my helmet off, and didn't want to do that anywhere around these guys, both in case they decide to play more vehicular assault fun, or because its my best chance to fight off a pair of teenagers had it come to that.

5. I'm not looking to pick fights. I don't try to pick a fight with everyone that cuts me off. The fight came looking for me. The choice I made was whether the venue was scooter vs car, or person vs. person.

Yes, there were plenty of things I could have done to perhaps lessen the chance of a fight, but I didn't see that any of them increased my safety. these guys were not interested in disengaging, and I really think running away would have spurred them on more. I'm not saying macing them is a great idea either, but I want to have options.

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:59 pm

LisaLisa wrote:Otherwise- yes you DO have to follow the "moped" laws.

I am following "moped" laws. Around here, that means stay off the interstate. Otherwise, you are treated as any other vehicle, and passing you without a passing lane or otherwise intruding in your lane is highly illegal.

When I said "not really 'belonging' on the road, I'm referring to the jackass mentality of "scooters are gay and shouldn't be allowed to get in my way HURRR" that a lot of these people apparently harbor.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:18 pm

Dude, we get it. You have a right to be in the road, and these assholes risked your safety to run you off the road to make the point that they didn't think you did. I had a semi do that to me about 10 days ago. You don't need to convince me that they deserve to be thrown off an overpass (which sadly isn't our right to carry out). But if it's your personal safety you're actually concerned about, nothing about confronting them would help that.

Now, I don't know the situation you were in; all I have to go on is your description of it. And in that version, these guys were sitting in their car at a stop sign. That is not actively threatening, and I think the notion that they would've turned their car around and pursued you if you'd turned around is pretty unlikely. (At that point all they'd probably do is laugh at you.) They'd already spent 30 seconds not coming back after you. You had ample opportunity to avoid confrontation with them and you chose not to. You talked here about how the witnesses wouldn't know the whole story, and they'd think you were in the wrong. That's right. That's exactly how the law would see it.

You had options besides "pass them" and "confront them". You had a cellphone to call the police. You could wait longer. You had a scooter to turn around and ride off if they got out of their car and approached you. You had witnesses whom you could go stand behind. You had a more maneuverable vehicle (and an effective head start) if they actually turned their car around and tried to attack you with it. I'm sorry, but you haven't described one thing that would (in the eyes of the law) justify the use of any "defensive" force.

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:42 pm

Just my opinion but this should have nothing to do with weather or not you have the right to be there. Even if you were on a road that your scoot should not have been on, this does not give them the right to put you in harms way.

Anybody stupid enough to pull a maneuver that they did is not mature enough to listen to reason, especially once confronted. By stepping off your scoot and coming up the them, you were just feeding them exactly what they were looking for..... a reaction. One has to think, what good will come of my actions. If I approach them and let them know I am upset with what they did, are they really going to listen to me? Nope. You already had an idea that this was going to continue before you approached them. In my opinion, that action can only make it worse. Nothing you could have done or said face to face would have taught them a lesson or benefitted your situation in any way.

They were looking for a reaction from you. If you take yourself out of the equation, they are left with nothing to feed on. You get home safe and nobody gets a fist in their face.

I know its hard two walk away from these situations, especially when you feel that they put you in danger. I also know that I was a teenager once. And I knew a few people that did exactly what they did to you. Many times it did escalate to a fight. And I never remember a time following a fight any teenager thinking “gee, I really learned my lesson”.

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:34 pm

It doesn't really matter if they deliberately swerved into you. Or if someone accidentally swerves into you. You evade the impact because you look ahead and ride like you are invisible, and then you get away from the bad driver. If it means riding through parking lots and away, that's what it means. The same way you would get away from a crazy dude waving a pistol around.

It's upsetting when a driver does something stupid that endangers you. It's even more upsetting when it seems deliberate. But you can't fix those people. Not even the police can. The only thing the cops can do is make some money off of them.

But no matter what, you still have to register your buddy- as a motorcycle. I don't understand what the problem with that is. As I read the new law, going over 50 mph is 4 points on your license. I'm not saying that people have the right to pick on "low powered scooters". I'm just saying that you want less of this kind of trouble, and that is something that might help. Wear a helmet, wear your gear.

And if the teens are people you recognize, then talk to their parents.

Or... respond this way to that confrontation:

"Hey! come on! It's me, Trent! You remember- at 'The Wave' two weeks ago! Thursday. You were making a total ho of yourself over my friend Ellis. Not that I care, Ellis is such a tramp anyway."

edit- colorado springs, substitute "Underground" for "Wave"

whiteowl · Post by **whiteowl** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:24 pm

Well, I live in Mississippi. A S&W snubnose 38 fits quite well in the glovebox. It might be a little much though.

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:31 pm

Hey, the guy asked a simple question, & mostly he got a "Kumbya" response. Please.

Anachronism, about the only incorrect thing you did was give them the finger. You need to be perceived as a "good guy" if there are witnesses.

Had it been me, I would have called 911 & reported them as potentially DUI, & relayed the careless driving. And that potentially gets YOU involved in the system. However, if those yahoos did that to me I would gladly assist in prosecuting them, or at the very least, getting them on the LEO radar screen.

IRL I legally carry more than pepper spray, & if combative/aggressive people cross the line, well, lets just say that I am prepared to deal with it accordingly.

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:16 pm

B02S4 wrote:Hey, the guy asked a simple question, & mostly he got a "Kumbya" response. Please.

Actually, your answer, report as DUI is best.

I'm sticking to the kum-by-yah answer because I've done my share of head bashing. It just wastes your time, talking yourself out of a patrol car ride... when you CAN talk your way out of the patrol car ride. Just get out of the situation and do not retaliate.

As far as personal defense goes, the xena lock has the heft to make it effective. Also the forged link chain on any of those good scooter security systems can make a statement.

basmith42 · Post by **basmith42** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:25 pm

First of all- if you pull a weapon because of a confrontation you had better be ready to use it and it better be enough to stop the situation. You also better legally be able to say you had no choice or felt that you were in mortal danger.

I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in Ohio. In fact, I carry when I take night time walks and when I feel the little voice in the back of my head.

To this point I have not carried when riding for two reasons. 1) I do not think I would be able to get my glove off and unholster my weapon in time for it to usefull. Without taking my glove off, I would not be able to operate my pistol safely. 2) this is the most pressing- I'm a new rider and weigh the risks of needing to use a weapon vs going down on it. I do not want to go down and jam a pistol into my side.
This being said, there are a few rides my wife and I are talking about that make me consider carrying because of the neighborhoods we'll be driving through.

The other concern with carrying when riding armed would be what to do with the piece if you encounter a criminal protection zone (aka gun free area). It is hard to inconspiuously unholster and lock up when not in a car. Top cases are not very secure and could pose a liability if broken into.

My last concern is what happens if my jacket rides up and a passing motorist sees it. It is legal to openly carry in Ohio but doing so is a good way to get cited with inciting a panic.

Just my 22c worth...

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:23 am

I'm thankful that the situation has never come for me. I must live in the most friendly, tolerable speck of the USA. I get winks, waves, nods and thumbs up all the time, but never anything that suggests aggression. I've ridden through the most affluent neighborhoods and the seediest ghettos in our area and have had friendly conversations with folks in both. Maybe I'm too trusting. Maybe I'll be in for a rude awakening some day. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the good vibes without worrying too much about the "what if."

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:45 am

OK, now I have to laugh at myself. And everyone, especially anachronism and B02S4 should post a row of LOL's at me.

Because about 45 minutes ago, I really, really had to work hard keep my armored gloves from making contact with a driver's head. I'm totally serious here.

7:50, In the Hobby Lobby parking lot, 10 minutes before the store shuts for the night.
I had finished my business in said establishment, and was next to my bike, gearing up for the ride home. A car whipped around and was coming straight for me- and her headlights were out (she flipped them off as she was turning)

I shrieked, and jumped back. She flipped into the space next to me and started yelling at me, "I know how to drive, I got my license, I wasn't going to hit your little bike!"

"I was more worried about my legs."

"You think I can't drive! I can drive!"

"Chill, Lady. No harm done."

"What you say to me!!!!"

"I said 'chill'. No harm."

I was so ready- but she had kids with her. And the security guard was watching and locking the doors- I prayed he would let her in... and he did.

I got the foo out of there. And as I left I saw that her driver side door was crushed in...

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:48 am

LisaLisa wrote:OK, now I have to laugh at myself. And everyone, especially anachronism and B02S4 should post a row of LOL's at me.

Because about 45 minutes ago, I really, really had to work hard keep my armored gloves from making contact with a driver's head. I'm totally serious here.

7:50, In the Hobby Lobby parking lot, 10 minutes before the store shuts for the night.
I had finished my business in said establishment, and was next to my bike, gearing up for the ride home. A car whipped around and was coming straight for me- and her headlights were out (she flipped them off as she was turning)

I shrieked, and jumped back. She flipped into the space next to me and started yelling at me, "I know how to drive, I got my license, I wasn't going to hit your little bike!"

"I was more worried about my legs."

"You think I can't drive! I can drive!"

"Chill, Lady. No harm done."

"What you say to me!!!!"

"I said 'chill'. No harm."

I was so ready- but she had kids with her. And the security guard was watching and locking the doors- I prayed he would let her in... and he did.

I got the foo out of there. And as I left I saw that her driver side door was crushed in...

sometimes a woman just needs her crafts, yo!

glad that ended well.

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:58 am

LisaLisa, glad you're OK. The person that put you at risk apparently involved very different motive & context than Anachronism's situation.

Regardless of situation, as a general rule, all use of force situations come down to whether the use of force was reasonable and necessary for the situation.

In your situation, the threat basically ended when the clueless/careless person parked. In Anachronism's situation, motive, intent, & context wasn't at all clear.

From my perspective, every good person ought to have access to SOMETHING that can be used as a weapon for personal defense, IF NECESSARY.

Whether the use of force is reasonable & necessary is going to be determined by the facts & circumstances involved. Choose wisely, as there are consequences either way.

That said, do your best to avoid unecessary situations & confrontations, leave if you can, & if you can't, do whatever is reasonable & necessary for you to prevail.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:14 am

basmith42 wrote:First of all- if you pull a weapon because of a confrontation you had better be ready to use it and it better be enough to stop the situation. You also better legally be able to say you had no choice or felt that you were in mortal danger.

You have brought up interesting points on subjects that this board and its general subject discussions seldom, if ever, venture into.

While they can be used in an offensive manner, mace or a taser are generally defensive in nature. Their con is that they are a limited defense tool. A firearm rapidly increases capability yet introduces new issues and problems to consider which I know you understand.

Regarding this particular case, I'm not sure but I believe that Colorado banned the right to concealed carry of a firearm even with special permit and the additional background checks.

Overall, when it comes to scooter riding, I support safe riding by avoiding whenever possible confrontation by riding away or separating oneself from the danger. However, I'm realistic to acknowledge that may not always be possible.

What is the solution? I don't know.

My home of Portland is, for the most part, a very safe city compared to many. We are also a scooter city. Today, I was riding past one of the areas somewhat more prone to violence than other areas. An adult man 'a real bad-boy' type cut out from a parking lot in front of me while I was going down the street. To his credit, he did it fast to create some space and looked back to see where I was. I did have to hit the brakes somewhat for extra safe riding distance. I was tempted to reply with the 139 decibel air-horn yet that might have initiated a retalitory reply of some nature. I let it go.

If I had used the air-horn in a long angry manner, he might have slammed on his brakes in front of me and jumped out of his car. If I had been carrying oh say something sweet like a semi-auto pistol and had the time to yank off a glove and grab it then who knows how much worse it could have gotten?

Yet again, there are going to be some cases when no matter how much in life we sincerely try to avoid violence or confrontation, it can keep coming after us.

Again, what is the best thing and way to be prepared as a scooter rider I don't know. There are pros and cons to preparing for self-defense and to responding with ever greater levels of defensive intent.

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:26 am

I agree it's different, but disagree that it ended when she parked her car. That's when it began. I personally was in no danger from her hitting me with her car- I could have easily jumped back and away as my bike crushed. My danger was the driver. She boiled out of her car with a vengeance. My bike was on the center stand, she was right next to me, spun up and really ready to go at it. And short of running away on foot, leaving my bike with the key in it, I had no escape. Only the presence of the security guard 50 yards away and my unwillingness to get into it moderated the situation.

Let me also say this was no yuppie suburban SUV soccer mom, K?

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:47 am

Well, in that case, OC her with abandon!

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:50 am

Portland_Rider wrote: ...There are pros and cons to preparing for self-defense and to responding with ever greater levels of defensive intent.

Well, one very big "con" is that if you aren't properly prepared, it's "game over".

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:00 am

Well, ya know- there was another woman with her- and they both outweighed me. And I don't know what was so important for them to get at Hobby Lobby, but I do understand the urgency on a Saturday night, the frustration that the place is closed on Sundays...

And everyone knows that Michaels and AC Moore, which are open on Sundays, are not even to be mentioned in the same breath as Hobby Lobby for crafting needs. Unless you scrapbook or do floral and then there's no dealing with you.

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:04 am

I learned something very importante here...never stand between a woman & her crafts!~

bluebuddygirl · Post by **bluebuddygirl** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:07 am

Sorry, but I had to...

Prairiedale · Post by **Prairiedale** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:45 am

Currently using a SIG SAUER P220 as my preferred form of protection, although really any holstered small caliber handgun prominently displayed does the trick. I have a carry permit, but it is not as much of a detriment if it is hidden.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:08 am

Prairiedale wrote:Currently using a SIG SAUER P220 as my preferred form of protection, although really any holstered small caliber handgun prominently displayed does the trick. I have a carry permit, but it is not as much of a detriment if it is hidden.

You have very good taste in the company that you keep

Asburyjer · Post by **Asburyjer** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:30 am

De-escalate do not escalate a confrontation.

Better to rant on here about some mad cager than to be explaining in front of a judge why you maced some frat punk in his Celica.

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:45 am

Lil Buddy wrote:Just my opinion but this should have nothing to do with weather or not you have the right to be there. Even if you were on a road that your scoot should not have been on, this does not give them the right to put you in harms way.

Anybody stupid enough to pull a maneuver that they did is not mature enough to listen to reason, especially once confronted. By stepping off your scoot and coming up the them, you were just feeding them exactly what they were looking for..... a reaction. One has to think, what good will come of my actions. If I approach them and let them know I am upset with what they did, are they really going to listen to me? Nope. You already had an idea that this was going to continue before you approached them. In my opinion, that action can only make it worse. Nothing you could have done or said face to face would have taught them a lesson or benefitted your situation in any way.

They were looking for a reaction from you. If you take yourself out of the equation, they are left with nothing to feed on. You get home safe and nobody gets a fist in their face.

I know its hard two walk away from these situations, especially when you feel that they put you in danger. I also know that I was a teenager once. And I knew a few people that did exactly what they did to you. Many times it did escalate to a fight. And I never remember a time following a fight any teenager thinking “gee, I really learned my lesson”.

Good point.

Anachronism · Post by **Anachronism** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:04 am

After having a day to cool off, I'm still not sure what I want to do here.

I'm realizing that my consideration of carrying a weapon is probably more based in maintaining an illusion of control that anything else. I felt I didn't have any way to stop what happened, and I want a way. What's worse for me is this happened quite close to my house- close enough where it is reasonable that I'm going to encounter these guys again.

Victimization is just so... frustrating, especially absolutely pointless stuff like this. At least if it was theft, I could understand why they would do it, but what has to be wrong with somebody for them not to see the issue with forcing somebody off the road for fun while the person is doing 50+ MPH?

Let me come at this from a different angle. I have a tag number of the car. Its still parked at the apartment complex a few blocks away from my house. As I mentioned, the police were of extremely limited help in wanting to locate the person responsible.

Given that, do I have any other LEGAL alternatives to have this dealt with in a legal fashion? These guys came hunting for me once, if they see me on the road again, I have no expectation that it won't happen again, which is what is driving me crazy.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:28 am

Apologize to the punk ass.

"I'm sorry" is one of the easiest things to say there is, *especially* when you don't really mean it. But by offering an apology, social norms force him to accept it, he feels like he's won and is much more likely to ignore you in the future.

Everybody wins. Punk ass at best gets to brag about harassing a guy on a scooter ("ooh, Johnny, you're SO tough!"), but more likely just never mentions it again. You get punk ass off your case and have lost nothing for it.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:35 am

Syd wrote:Apologize to the punk ass.

"I'm sorry" is one of the easiest things to say there is, *especially* when you don't really mean it. But by offering an apology, social norms force him to accept it, he feels like he's won and is much more likely to ignore you in the future.

Everybody wins. Punk ass at best gets to brag about harassing a guy on a scooter ("ooh, Johnny, you're SO tough!"), but more likely just never mentions it again. You get punk ass off your case and have lost nothing for it.

Well said.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:38 am

1) I would call your City's non-emergency police number and have them transfer you to the police department section that handles traffic laws and rules. Run your concerns past them and ask for advice. When I called mine here in Portland about a question I had about regs for permit holders, the officer who answered the phone was a dedicated hard-core motorcycle rider. Whatever you do don't bash the cop who didn't help you.

2) Speak with an attorney. People at this board cannot give you legal advice. You need to speak with a qualified attorney in your State who specializes in that area of law.

3) Seek out a local scooter club. If there is a decent one in your area, local riders may have some advice for you.

4) If there is anyway that you can electronically record those guys it would be great.

5) I hate to ask a fellow rider to consider another vehicle but for the short-term, maybe a until the Spring, can you drive something?

robby · Post by **robby** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:14 am

bluebuddygirl wrote:Sorry, but I had to...

Hm?

Asburyjer · Post by **Asburyjer** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:28 am

Here's one of the major problems I foresee with pushing this issue with law enforcement; you're riding a modified 50cc that exceeds the 30mph limit, and if you don't have a license plate or registration or a motorcycle license or permit then you are driving a vehicle that may not be street legal. This situation may well end up with you in more trouble than the jerks in the car, because while idiotic and rude they could technically argue that you shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=27[/url]

bkrdoug · Post by **bkrdoug** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:24 pm

I am 76yo and have been riding for 40yrs.----close to 400K mi in last 12 yrs.------i carry 2 things---a 2 ft length of chain and my browning HI-POWER. (i have a CWP)----haVe been CONFRONTED many times. this has bee successful for me---I do everything i can to avoid a confrontation---go a different way----slow down to 5mph and wave them around-------surprise them and turn down a side street-- etc.---------if that doesnt work, pull aheah and stop the scoot in the middle of the road so they have to run over it or stop.---you are off the bike with the chain in one hand and one hand on your gun.----make them get out of the car and come at you(in which case you put one right between the eyes).---you call 911 so they can see. ---if they run over your bike GREAT!!!! you got em!! if they try to run at you slowly, beat the shit out of the car---if they come at you fast---put one between the eyes(i hope you are carrying and know how to use it.---It would help greatly if you had shot someone before(IE: i was in KOREA in 1953)---if you shoot someone it WILL be messy. ----------the kingfish

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:44 pm

The Trunk Monkey Cappucian Model fits perfectly in the pet carrier!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avOiTUcD4Y

Asburyjer · Post by **Asburyjer** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:46 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:The Trunk Monkey Cappucian Model fits perfectly in the pet carrier!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avOiTUcD4Y

Trunk monkey beats standing in the street with a chain and a gun like some weird Pee-wee Herman meets Mad Max nightmare any day of the week!

08buddyblack · Post by **08buddyblack** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:24 pm

I carry a .38 cal. revolver. Like others I have a permit and will not provoke. Self defense is an in-alienable right. If someone tries to kill me with their weapon, a motor vehicle, I will defend myself.

Asburyjer · Post by **Asburyjer** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:45 pm

08buddyblack wrote:If someone tries to kill me with their weapon, a motor vehicle, I will defend myself.

Just keep well in mind that self defense against someone in a motor vehicle is going to be very hard to prove especially without very reliable eye-witnesses. What's more is shooting someone who is driving toward you with their car is most likely going to end up with you getting run over by the same car in that you've just killed the driver.

Quite frankly, IMO this is not the way to go. Drive to the local police station and hope they dare to follow you in.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:19 pm

I often travel by scooter in the daytime in some of the most high crime neighborhoods in my city as part of my work. I am sad to say my city is not exactly considered low crime either. I cannot imagine confronting someone with a weapon. Just get the heck out of there if someone threatens you.

The most threatening people to me have been suburban soccor moms in min vans or SUV that have cut me off or nearly run me off the road. A couple times I have given them an earful (yes, stupid, but I was enraged), and I had one that I swear stalked me for several traffic lights threatening to run into me. SHe had one of those bumper stickers that said "my child is an honor student" at some religious school.

As far as the "bad" neighborhoods, I only had one man with mental health problems get too close, and I just Buddy'd the heck out of there.

I have been to many safety seminars b/c of my work, and not one of the people doing the training has recommended weapons or even mace. They said most of the time the mace just blows in the face of the person using it and makes them more vulnerable b/c they cannot see to get away. Your time if much better spent moving along.

Plus why would you want to enrage someone while you are on 2 wheels? they can do a lot worse to you if they are in a car and you are on 2 wheels-plus it would not be hard to remember you if you turned up in the area again.

ERik3tb · Post by **ERik3tb** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:52 pm

When I lived in Salt Lake City, UT I carried this:

http://www.counterassault.com/

I spend alot of time in Yellowstone National Park and never hike without it. It fits nicely in a glove box or can hang in the corrazo cup holder.

I've only had to use it once. I was driving down Redwood road and a car full of hispanic gangbangers pulled up beside me. The driver had a 9mm he showed me and told me that the "blonde in the car was going with them". I asked my sister to close her eyes while I removed the safety.

it has an effective 30ft range in a cone shape and a bright orange dye. Shooting through a drivers window will mark everyone in the car. We got away, called 911 and told them what had happened. I was asked to file a report, but the cops couldn't seem to find them.

But, that has also worked against me. While in Twin Falls, ID I was walking to work every day and would frequently get charged by an unrestrained pitbull from across a street. The police were called and they told me that if I did anything to defend myself, I'd be the one in trouble, not the dog owner.

I had to spray the dog 2 days later when it charged me and got ahold of me. I was given a ticket and had to go to court. The judge took a look at my shreaded backpack and bite marks and they said I over reacted. WTH?!?!?! It cost me $150 and I told the judge, next time, I don't overreact. I'll just get something that would put the dog down. He told me I wouldn't have been in trouble then.

I still don't understand that, but I still carry my counter assault.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:26 pm

How about an Italian or French Army Vespa armed with an anti-tank gun?

scroll down as there are several models to look at:
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/12 ... wered.html

BTW, the website www.darkroastedblend.com is a very interesting site to get lost into.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:37 pm

ERik3tb wrote:When I lived in Salt Lake City, UT I carried this:

http://www.counterassault.com/
It fits nicely in a glove box or can hang in the corrazo cup holder. it has an effective 30ft range in a cone shape and a bright orange dye.

Erik,

I'm glad that you and your sister got away from those punks, and later you survived that dog attack. As I've written about earlier; Courts are about Laws or about persauding Juries and not neccessarily about Justice.

Which of the different models do you own? The one that I saw listed for going 30' was for grizzly defense. Was that the one? I'm wondering if grizzly approved defense is legal to use on a person.

Thanks

PR

Modern Buddy

Do you carry something for personal defense? (long)

Do you carry something for personal defense? (long)

A Courtroom is a place of Laws (sorta) not Justice

mace?

basmith

Re: basmith

protection

Re: defense

Re: defense

a solution to hostile cagers

Erik3tb