Ear Damage

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:30 pm

Here's a post I wish I wasn't writing...

I just came back from the doctor. It turns out I have bleeding in both ears. Before I tell the story, the moral of this post... wear ear protection when you ride. Every time you ride.

So here's the story... a couple of months back I started getting the occasional tickle in my left ear. I thought nothing of it. Thought it was just a hair or something goofy like that. The tickle continued intermittently over the past one or two months, not so frequently that it caused concern, just an occasional annoyance.

A couple of weeks ago it started to happen more frequently. I was reminded of that Night Gallery episode with the earwig... A week ago the tickle started to happen in my right ear too. Then I developed ringing in both my ears. Two days ago the tickle grew to include the back of my throat. Yesterday the tickle turned into a mild pain and pressure in my ears.

Went to the Doctor today and he saw the bleeding; older in the left ear, fresh in the right.

I don't know if the bleeding can be attributed solely to riding without any ear protection (I have used Qtips), but it is 100% absolutely part of the cause. That is my Doctors opinion, not just my own. Doc also said I was lucky not to have ruptured my ear drums.

My own theory supporting the damage being from riding alone, is that in the last year, riding a scooter is the only thing in my lifestyle that has changed which has had any influence on my ears whatsoever and therefore could possibly have contributed to the damage.

(A note on my riding habits - I tend to do a lot of high speed riding and since beginning to ride a year ago, 99% of the time I have worn a 3/4 helmet with no ear coverage or other ear protection.)

Fortunately my doctor thinks the damage is not permanent, and I get to enjoy a fine cocktail of drugs for the next several weeks. Keep your fingers crossed they do the trick.

All I can say is this folks, wear earplugs, or wear a full-faced helmet, but definitely wear something to protect your ears. The damage won't happen all at once, but it will happen.

If you've got kids, imagine never hearing their voice. If you love music, imagine never hearing music ever again. If you love nature, imagine living in a silent world. And if this doesn't convince you to develop good ear protection habits, watch that Night Gallery episode with the earwig... the tickle will drive you nuts.

Lil Buddy · Post by **Lil Buddy** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:42 pm

Yikes, sorry you had to experience this but it is a great reminder to us all.

I am almost deaf in my right ear (not riding related). I wear earplugs in both ears and a full face helmet. Not being able to hear every noise around you does take some getting used to while riding, but I'd say its worth having that protection in place.

Wishing you a full recovery

beach · Post by **beach** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:43 pm

Tuesday, I rode from Richmond, VA to Yorktown and back. Total distance was 200ish miles for the day. I chose my fullface, because it insulates my head better on a cool day. Anyway, in town I would have my face shield up and would be like "Damn this thing is loud". Close the shield and the world became a quieter place. Shield open was a very harsh sound which made it through to my ears. I greatly appreciated the ability to make it quieter without using my earplugs. I will also point out the cumulative effects. Maybe not so bad at first, but as the day wore on I immediately noticed when I had my shield up and it was actually painful. I know this will sound stupid, but it felt like ths sound was beating directly on my eardrums. Not sound to be heard, but a ringing force on my eardrums. Yes, wear ear protection.

nateandcourt · Post by **nateandcourt** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:45 pm

Do you have aftermarket pipes?

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:01 pm

nateandcourt wrote:Do you have aftermarket pipes?

Stock. But that is not the issue. It is not just the volume of the scooter that causes damage, mostly it is the pressure from the wind rush in your ear canals and the associated volume that goes along with it.

gr8dog · Post by **gr8dog** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:31 pm

Sorry to hear about the ear damage Skootz. Do you have a windscreen on your scooter? With my windscreen I have very little air rushing around my head. I have ridden 7000 miles in the past two seasons with no ill effects. I love to hear the sounds around me when I ride. I wonder if rerouting the air makes a difference.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:51 pm

I've never heard of anyone have this problem from riding. I wear a FF helmet, wind never touches my ears that much. A tiny bit, but not a whole lot like a 3/4 or half helmet would.

nateandcourt · Post by **nateandcourt** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:56 pm

I found it hard to believe at first. Being this was the first time I had heard of it.

But I looked it up and it's quite disturbing. I plan on wearing them when I get my new scoot.
http://www.hearingtestlabs.com/motorcycle.htm

http://www.ridemyown.com/articles/safety/earplugs.shtml

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:08 pm

Skootz,

I'm really sorry to read about ear problems though I'm glad to also read the doctor said that you will recover. You wrote your post with much passion. I could feel something of what you must be going through. As usual, you do seem like you're keeping a good attitude about it.

While your exact medical symptoms may not be common or well-known among riders, I have read that hearing damage is not uncommon.

The previous month, quite a few of us discussed a post regarding using ear plugs. Perhaps now, some of those who did not recognize the need may re-consider.

Take care.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:09 pm

Damn sorry to hear about this, Skootz, but glad you caught it before permanent damage was done.

While this is the only firsthand account I've heard of hearing/ear damage due to riding, I've read many warnings about the possible dangers. I don't think it's a rare occurrence, but it may be less common with scooterists than motorcyclists.

Skootz, did your doc say a FF helmet is sufficient to block out pressure or are earplugs necessary? I know some riders who do both.

Oddly enough, I sleep with earplugs in but have ever tried them while riding.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:20 pm

I remember the earwig episode. It was a female! Laid eggs in his brain!

My doc found the same in mine. Said to quit using those damn q-tips. Not permanent. The wind, ipods, engine noise etc will do more damage over time. But people are people and don't believe it can ever happen to them because they do this or that. By the way, don't jam those earplugs in too deep, you'll do damage to your eardrums.

Take the precautions you think are necessary but don't be surprised when you begin to lose hearing in some ranges either early or late in years. Hey, its part of getting old, but its accelerated in the society we live in. Its noisy. Everywhere. All the time. People love noise. They stay plugged into it all the time and don't even realize it.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:21 pm

jfrost2 wrote:I've never heard of anyone have this problem from riding. I wear a FF helmet, wind never touches my ears that much. A tiny bit, but not a whole lot like a 3/4 or half helmet would.

You never "heard"? Sorry I couldn't resist that one.

Anyways, another thing I'm wondering about is what about possible cummulative effects of possible hearing loses from earlier riding experiences at the later ages such as 55-65-75+ with ex-riders.

This could be one of those things we don't 'hear' or read about since the ex-riders are no longer in the saddle and may not have been for sometime.

It could be like a smoker quitting at age 55 and then a few years later suffer the tragic consequences.

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:23 pm

First off, I do highly recommend ear plugs of some sort if you ride at high speeds. I wear them all the time on my motorcycle and on longer, higher speed trips on my scooter.

That said, I also think some folks are much more sensitive to wind noise than others. Wind noise bothers me a lot so my primary concern when choosing a new helmet is how quiet it is at speed. What I've found is that, for me, at speeds below about 45 mph, wind noise with my helmets (an EXO400 and and RF1000) is low enough that I don't need plugs. At highway speeds (over 70 mph), even the quietest helmet isn't enough. I've experimented with lots of off the shelf plugs and have also come to the conclusion that I'll probably need custom plugs at some point, especially if I'm planning a fast ride of 2 hours or more.

There are other factors of course, like age. Men approaching middle age are much more prone to issues like tinnitis. Some folks ride helmetless and don't complain of any problems or pain. Some take all precautions and still experience pain while riding or ringing after a nice ride.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:41 pm

The doctors out here call hearing loss scooter/motorcycle riding "Harley Ear".

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:42 pm

nateandcourt wrote:...
http://www.hearingtestlabs.com/motorcycle.htm
http://www.ridemyown.com/articles/safety/earplugs.shtml

Great articles nateandcourt. Thanks for the find.

Frankly I am amazed by all this. I've pretty much been in shock since finding out. I mean, bleeding??? Come on! Just hard to believe. If the Doc had told me it WAS a Night Gallery earwig in there, I would have found that easier to believe. (I should point out, there was/is no visible sign of blood anywhere that I could see. The Doc had to use his little ear gizmo to see it.)

ericalm wrote:...Skootz, did your doc say a FF helmet is sufficient to block out pressure or are earplugs necessary? I know some riders who do both...

He didn't mention any specifics regarding gear, just that I had to protect my ears when riding... and to never use Qtips to clean my ears... I imagine different full-face helmet brands/designs do better/worse jobs at protecting ears. Just one more criteria to consider when purchasing.

As this whole bleeding thing is pretty uncommon (as far as I know) I wonder if it is a confluence of things that has caused it? The wind rush combined with using Qtips? Who knows. Also, I did have some minor tinnitus before this happened.

What ever the cause, the result is really very disconcerting...

Anyways, time to put in my earplugs and go for a ride to get my ear-wonder-drugs. Yes, scooting will continue. It will just be scooting with a more long distance consideration of the future...

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:49 pm

Are there any ways to dampen the sound of the engine itself (besides going slower) or to put on a more noise-reducing muffler?

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:50 pm

My doc said that it is not uncommon and didn't ask if I used qtips, he just knew and stated it. He was right. It doesn't take much to scratch your eardrum. No, riding didn't make your ears bleed. Unless you have a mighty Harley with custom straight pipes.

Most of the long time bikers I know have the most hearing loss on whatever side their pipes are on. That's not scientific information, just personal observation of older biker guys. Several at work talk about how they love the sound of those pipes but if they had known...

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:17 am

Portland_Rider wrote:Are there any ways to dampen the sound of the engine itself (besides going slower) or to put on a more noise-reducing muffler?

There is no muffler like this, and even if there was, it would be a "downgrade" mod.

takora · Post by **takora** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:32 am

jfrost2 wrote:
Portland_Rider wrote:Are there any ways to dampen the sound of the engine itself (besides going slower) or to put on a more noise-reducing muffler?
There is no muffler like this, and even if there was, it would be a "downgrade" mod.

That's one of my very big problems with the scooter/cycle/mechanical world. There are options for making your ride louder, but no way to make it *silent* which is what I would love and pay for...

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:35 am

It's possible I'm sure, but there isnt enough market for it. Like you said, it's all about being loud.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:41 am

takora wrote:
jfrost2 wrote:
Portland_Rider wrote:Are there any ways to dampen the sound of the engine itself (besides going slower) or to put on a more noise-reducing muffler?
There is no muffler like this, and even if there was, it would be a "downgrade" mod.

That's one of my very big problems with the scooter/cycle/mechanical world. There are options for making your ride louder, but no way to make it *silent* which is what I would love and pay for...

On many 2 wheelers the solution is simple. Leave the damn thing stock. Then with reasonable precautions you can minimize damage over time. My Triumph is as quiet as can be with the stock silencers. People whine all the time about how quiet the Triumph is and spend hundreds to make it noisy. They can always start a second career after retirement signing for deaf groups. They'll have lots of motivation to learn.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:45 am

It doesn't have anything to do with the scooter's exhaust or engine sounds. This type of damage is caused by wind pressure and wind noise. It's called "dirty air" and can actually be worsened by a badly fitted windshield. If your helmet is in that stream of air that's getting compressed by the deflected air, it's going to be painfully loud. You'll also notice a lot more helmet buffeting because the wind pressure is so violent.

Another thing to consider is the helmet's design. Some of those vents can actually focus air pressure towards the ears.

I'm with gt1000 on this one. Use plugs if you're going on long/fast rides.

My opinion, your mileage may vary.

pyrocpu · Post by **pyrocpu** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:07 am

My first ride on my Blackjack, I forgot my earplugs. Even when I had my little Honda Metropolitan, I wore plugs. After a mere 30min ride w/ my Prima-equipped Blackjack, my ears were ringing for an hour after the ride!

I also chose a quieter helmet. I forgot where I was reading the reviews, but this one website was testing helmet upon helmet. One of their testing metrics was how quiet or loud the helmets were. So I figured if I combined my HJC IS-16 and earplugs, I'd be good!

I went for a 2.5hr ride this past weekend. Plugs + aforementioned helmet. No problems at all. On one of my breaks 50min into the ride, I took the helmet and plugs out and I could hear rustling leaves just fine!

Synopsis: plugs + quiet helmet.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:43 am

pyrocpu wrote:...I forgot where I was reading the reviews, but this one website was testing helmet upon helmet....

If you happen to remember where you saw that review, I'd personally be very grateful. I'm thinking about getting a new helmet for cold weather and I'm looking for some reviews that take this into consideration. Most just focus on helmet weight, vents and price, but no one mentions how those vents affect the noise level.

I'll be the first one to admit, ear plugs are inconvenient to use (in the short term) for around town riding. If I could find a helmet that's comfortable through a range of temperatures and solidly made, but also allowed decent ventilation and didn't weight a ton, I'd seriously consider spending an extra few dollars... so long as I don't loose my hearing for the sake of not over-heating. That's saying a lot for a cheap-skate like myself. (I'm a miserly fool, the more I save, the more I can buy.

)

pyrocpu · Post by **pyrocpu** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:11 pm

No problem... found it... website is www.webbikeworld.com. The review for the HJC IS-16 is here: http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motorcyc ... hjc/is-16/

Lots of reviews of a LOT of different motorcycling products and covers most popular helmets out there. I primarily used webbikeworld to figure out which helmet to go with, as well as some winter gloves.

Short plug for the IS-16: It's a lot lighter than my 6 year-old Fulmer starter helmet I had, ventilation is better, it is slightly quieter, and it doesn't bobble around on my head (I think the Fulmer was too big for me). Best of all, it was pretty cheap @ New Enough ($160 I think?), has that built-in visor, and I got it in flat black to match the Blackjack.

Only caveat is that it's not Snell rated. I really needed that built-in visor since it's rather inconvenient w/ my glasses and using the clip-on sunglass thingie for my glasses. It'd always bounce off and flop around inside my Fulmer full-face helmet!

Happy browsing. You're probably going to be on there for quite some time, reading allll those reviews!

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:27 am

From what I know of anatomy, physiology and hearing, I do not see how bleeding would possibly be caused by riding. Also, you mention that the doctor gave you medications, I am making a stab in the dark here but would those meds be antibiotics, by any chance?

I have had more ear surgeries than I can count, ranging from a simply myringotomy (slicing the ear drum open to allow fluid in the middle ear to drain) to far more invasive and serious surgeries. The only times I have had medications for my ears were when I had ear infections.

I have had hundreds (sadly, I am not exaggerating) of ear infections and I have experienced perforations of my ear drum. Perfs bleed. Sometimes they are pretty small and the bleeding is not too bad (sometimes you wake up with blood on the pillow).

Ear infections also commonly cause hearing loss (usually temporary) because fluid in the middle ear does not allow the ear drum to vibrate like it should. I remember one of the first things I had which let me know to go see the doctor for an infection was my hearing would decline. Kind of like when you fly and your ears don't "clear" and things sound kind of muffled until finally they pop and suddenly you can hear again (same scenario, actually only instead of fluid behind your ear drum it is air pressure).

Now, having said all of that, noise definitely causes hearing loss that becomes permanent. I knew several EMTs and firemen that had mild to moderate hearing loss as a result of riding around in a screaming vehicle for years.

The effects of noise induced hearing loss are cumulative. This means that all of the insults that you experience over a lifetime (including all of those concerts in your youth where you stood in front of a 60 foot tall speaker the whole time) get together to finally reach the point that you have measurable hearing loss. Aging, also results in hearing loss, as we know.

What happens is this:
Sound waves travels down the ear canal and cause the ear drum to vibrate, those vibrations move 3 very tiny bones that link the ear drum with the cochlea (a snail shaped organ inside the ear) and transmit the waves to the cochlea, inside the cochlea are zillions of teeny tiny hair cells, these hair cells move with the vibrations and those movements trigger nerves at the base of the hair cells, these nerve impulses travel down the auditory nerve and into the hearing centers of the brain and are interpreted by the brain as sound.

You have had someone touch just the hairs on your arm or something, same idea.

As we age, things deteriorate. Unlike other types of hair cells you are born with a finite number of hair cells in your cochlea, damage the hair cells and they are gone. Forever.

When the ears have been subjected to intense sound the hair cells are temporarily paralyzed or the nerve is kind of overloaded or shocked and stops working for a while. This results in the temp threshold shift. It is called that because the threshold of your hearing (the quietese sound which you can perceive) is shifted or moved a bit for a while.

Shock the nerves often enough and they stop working.

Add that to the natural loss of hair cells that results from aging and you can guess what happens.

Protect your hearing ALL the time, not just when you are riding. Think about how loud our lives are now and how much we subject our ears to, everyday. We use earphones that take the sound and funnel it directly into our ears, we go to clubs, concerts, movies and so on (we have to experience the whole sound experience-but think about it, if the sound can vibrate a chair what do you think it does to teeny tiny little hair cells!?!), we surround ourselves with noisy equipment and machines and a ton of other insults to our ears. Our bodies were not designed or did not evolve to be able to handle this and so damage results.

And, if you think you can just get hearing aids and that will fix any hearing loss, it does not work that way. Hearing aids are not like eye glasses, it gets to the point that the sound is simply amplified and it is like taking a transistor radio and trying to just turn it all the way up-the sound is not clearer-just louder, and often making things louder increases the distortion and understanding gets worse. Trust me on this, I know what I am talking about.

Ok, I am done. Hopefully this helps make things clearer

and maybe some will consider protecting their hearing.

Every hair cell you destroy today is one less hair cell you have for tomorrow.

Cheers,
-v

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:07 am

Wow, never even considered it.

You might consider a full face.

I always wear a full face helmet, and with that in mind I have to say I seriously doubt my Blur could cause hearing damage. Even WOT it's fairly quiet.

In the full face, I only have to have my iPod about half-way up to be nicely heard over the Blur and traffic without drowning out traffic.

On my motorycle, it's louder, but it's not a Harley. I would probably wear ear plugs if I didn't wear my ff on the Suzuki. I haven't noticed it is particularly loud at speed, either.

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:05 am

I have a full face helmet and wear ear plugs and have a windscreen and have stock pipes.

My husband and I went on a 350 mile ride last month (half one day and half another day)--I found myself ducking down below my windscreen much of the time as the wind noise STILL bothered my ears.

My hearing so far is fine and I want to keep it that way! Thanks for posting your experience Skootz, as reinforcement for the importance of protecting your ears. I hope you have a speedy and full recovery.

I also hope everyone not wearing a full face (or modular full face) helmet will soon be wearing one as well. I'm firmly convinced that wearing one saved me from reconstructive surgery last month...if not worse.

We need to be as safe as we can be to enjoy riding as long as we can!

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:38 am

That’s real weird, sorry about your ears – never ride with ear protection, all OK for me, for now.

Portland_Rider · Post by **Portland_Rider** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:35 pm

I came across this at webBiekWorld.

You may find it interesting:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Earplugs/earplugs.htm

purple · Post by **purple** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:12 am

Skootz!

So sorry to hear about your ears! I can imagine how frustrated and shocked you were to get the news... Hope all turns out well for you!

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:52 am

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster ... ibles.html

There's no saving my ears!

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:32 pm

I've always thought my ears on my head exactly wrong because my whole life, strong winds can make what feels like a tunnel in them causing me severe and crippling pain. I have to cover them particularly in cold winds. That will knock me out from the pain caused in my uncovered ears.

It was a non-consideration, I had to have a full face even though my 3/4 came over my ears. The pressure caused by the wind passing by my ears gave me much the same headache and pain as I experienced before.

I'm sure once you've bled, antibiotics are administered as much prophylactically as just-in-time. Anytime you have an opening into your circulatory system, especially in a dark warm place like the ear, you don't want to let bacteria get in.

Interesting. I get a ticklin' my ear, imagine a spider was in my helmet and is now laying eggs in my brain. I suppose just a general look into the ears would show bleeding, yes?

Heal fast, Skootz!

Modern Buddy

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