Stella 4T 2010 is GO! for CA

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Stella 4T 2010 is GO! for CA

Post by ericalm »

The executive order from California's stringent and pokey Air Resources Board has been issued, paving the way for sales of the 2010 Stella 4T.

Of ye of little faith: It's coming and it's coming this year.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cer ... _1d0_h.pdf

The Stella performed well below the limits set by the state for emissions. As odd as it may seem, the Stella 4T will likely be Genuine's "greenest" model, with 130 MPG and lower emissions than many other carbed models on the road.

I'm pretty excited about this. The Stella was the scooter I would have bought instead of my Vespa if it'd been available new in CA at that time. There's a good chance this will wind up in the stable. :)
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Post by jijifer »

HURRAY! will kits for 2 strokes work for 4 stroke? isn't there like 190cc kit for the 2 stroke?
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Post by Lostmycage »

jijifer wrote:HURRAY! will kits for 2 strokes work for 4 stroke? isn't there like 190cc kit for the 2 stroke?
Totally different beast. Give it time, there'll be kits out for it if enough people buy the bike.

And Eric, there was never any doubt on if it'd be here, but when. :P
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Post by jijifer »

Lostmycage wrote:
jijifer wrote:HURRAY! will kits for 2 strokes work for 4 stroke? isn't there like 190cc kit for the 2 stroke?
Totally different beast. Give it time, there'll be kits out for it if enough people buy the bike.

And Eric, there was never any doubt on if it'd be here, but when. :P
probably another no-duh but is a 4t also shiftless?
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Post by rsrider »

Another option when I move up to a larger displacement scooter. I still like the Buddy's look though, so it will be a tough decision.
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Post by laxer »

jijifer wrote:
Lostmycage wrote:
jijifer wrote:HURRAY! will kits for 2 strokes work for 4 stroke? isn't there like 190cc kit for the 2 stroke?
Totally different beast. Give it time, there'll be kits out for it if enough people buy the bike.

And Eric, there was never any doubt on if it'd be here, but when. :P
probably another no-duh but is a 4t also shiftless?
IIRC it's still a shifty, please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by bigbropgo »

I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go. I'm still waiting for the MSRP. if its not to bad I might sell a kidney and get one.
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Post by laxer »

bigbropgo wrote:I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go. I'm still waiting for the MSRP. if its not to bad I might sell a kidney and get one.
Looks like a shifty in the video:

topic13148.html
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Post by Lostmycage »

By all accounts (including 2StrokeBuzz!) It's a 4T shifter that's specced at 130 mpg. This one's going on my list!
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Post by KRUSTYburger »

WOOHOO!
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Post by Kaos »

laxer wrote:
bigbropgo wrote:I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go. I'm still waiting for the MSRP. if its not to bad I might sell a kidney and get one.
Looks like a shifty in the video:

topic13148.html
Its a shifty. It even uses the regular Stella/P-150 transmission, so all the trans upgrades will fit. Just the top end has changed(So no 190/210cc Stella kit will fit the 4t Stella)
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Post by KCScooterDude »

I might put one in the garage. I've been looking for an '80s PX to totally rebuild, but why make more work for yourself? I figure the 4T Stella would have better reliability, but still need a bit of know-how to keep in tip top shape, which is what I am aiming for. There is plenty of bolt-on stuff to buy and play around with in the garage. Right now I'd like a classic scooter, a Majesty or Burgman for commuting and a Vulcan cruiser in my dream garage. The cage can live outside.

FYI, I'm taking this motorcycle repair class at the local CC. My instructor is a scooter guy. Even owns a Doodlebug, if you know what those are. He has or has owned everything from a Harley scooter to Allstates and currently has a Burgman (I think I have it right) with a sidecar. I've got a ton of projects planned for my GS50 (I'm veering off into NBR/NSR land here, sorry). I'm going to wrap the headers this weekend and black out the mid-pipe and muffler.

Ah, sorry. I'm watching Jimmy Fallon and just feel like rambling for some reason. Maybe it's that KFC I had for dinner.
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Post by ericalm »

Very shifty. :)

No upgrade kits for this engine yet. LML has a 200cc engine that will be available as a separate part, but I don't know if Scooterworks will carry it.

Make no mistake: This is not going to be a speed demon of a scooter. Those who gripe about a 55mph top speed are, IMHO, full of beans, so to speak. A Stella 2T or P150 will top out at 60! None of them belong on the freeway. So what difference does it make?

I'm not certain of pricing yet, but my guess is it'll probably be a little more than the 2T ($3600).
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Post by DennisD »

130mpg??? Hmm. Uhh, well, umm, ya know, I might just change my mind. 130mpgt?????? Uhoh, I'm gettin' that itch again! :shock:
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Post by bigbropgo »

D'oh! Shifty it is. 130mpg is pretty amazing by any standard. Be nice if the mph where at least half that.
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Post by pcbikedude »

FYI, 130mpg is a big boast. Just for a point of reference, the real world mpg will vary greatly ex. the Bajaj Chetak 150cc 4T gets about 90mpg in the same design footprint.

But it should be a fun ride.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Just remember that the Stella is going to be a completley different scooter than a Buddy. Different handling, suspension, braking, power and with a lot less storage.

I must admit that I am still a bit conflicted about a 4T "classic" scooter being the 2T kinda guy I am! If you want one...great!...just be aware of what you are getting into!

In my opinion as a daily all around scooter the Buddy is still the best bang for the buck!
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Post by Anachronism »

Kaos wrote:
laxer wrote:
bigbropgo wrote:I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go. I'm still waiting for the MSRP. if its not to bad I might sell a kidney and get one.
Looks like a shifty in the video:

topic13148.html
Its a shifty. It even uses the regular Stella/P-150 transmission, so all the trans upgrades will fit. Just the top end has changed(So no 190/210cc Stella kit will fit the 4t Stella)
More than the top end. The whole motor would have to be different, given that there would now be an oiling system and some provision to drive a camshaft.

I'm still very interested in finding out what engine the 4 stroke is based on. I seriously doubt LML (or Genuine) had the resources to develop a 4 stroke from scratch, much more likely that they licensed a design and adapted it to fit the transmission. So which one are they using?

Finally,
I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go.
To me, this statement is along the same lines as saying "Everyone would love the Ferrari Enzo if it sat 8 and had multiple DVD players for the kids."

You have every other scooter on the market to choose from if you don't want to bang gears, why do you need Stella to lose that too?
Valves are for wussies.
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Post by Kaos »

Anachronism wrote:
More than the top end. The whole motor would have to be different, given that there would now be an oiling system and some provision to drive a camshaft.

I'm still very interested in finding out what engine the 4 stroke is based on. I seriously doubt LML (or Genuine) had the resources to develop a 4 stroke from scratch, much more likely that they licensed a design and adapted it to fit the transmission. So which one are they using?
Well, yes. More than JUST the top end. It was a bit of an oversimplification.

My understanding is that they basically just 4t'd the 2t motor, and left as many of the original parts as they could. Now that does mean that a LOT has changed, since like you mentioned the oiling systems between 4t's and 2t's is wildly different among other things. I'll be interested to tear one down if I get the chance(My dealer said they'd call me when they tear down their first one).
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Post by Anachronism »

BuddyRaton wrote:Just remember that the Stella is going to be a completley different scooter than a Buddy. Different handling, suspension, braking, power and with a lot less storage.

I must admit that I am still a bit conflicted about a 4T "classic" scooter being the 2T kinda guy I am! If you want one...great!...just be aware of what you are getting into!

In my opinion as a daily all around scooter the Buddy is still the best bang for the buck!
Yes to all the above. Having owned both, I can say this.

1. The buddy starts easier. On the buddy I can crank and pretty much go, and the Stella I have to spend about a minute getting it warmed, and then really ease the clutch out gently to get it rolling without stalling. Most of this is the difference between the manual and automatic chokes.

2. The buddy is more reliable. In 1100 miles on the Buddy, the only warranty work I needed was to tighten a line on the oil pump to fix a minor leak that was spotting my driveway.

In 500 miles on the Stella, I have had a front brake problem with nasty vibration when stopping, a snapped battery tiedown, and I had to cut the wires on my kill button so the scooter would start on a wet day. In addition to this, a lot of the rubber parts on the scooter are cracking and rotting within 6 months of purchase.

3. The buddy has a smoother ride. When I first picked up Stella, I was amazed at the difference in vibration and that there were some (slight) rattles.

4. The buddy has a gentler suspension and a more comfortable seat. Stella seat takes a little getting used to, and the suspension will have you feeling more of the road.

5. The buddy has a TON more storage. You really need a rack on Stella, because you have no underseat storage- that is where the gas tank is. You do have a pretty nice (and larger than it looks) glove compartment, but if it doesn't fit there, then your only choice is hanging it off the grocery hook. Further complicating things is that you cannot just store things on the floor and hold them with your legs, as you have your rear brake on the floor, and you really don't want packages getting in the way of you being able to stop.

6. The buddy is faster stock vs. stock. On 2 stroke models, the catalytic converter does a lot to strangle power on Stella, and the weight of a metal body also hurts. As somebody mentioned, top speed on a stock Stella is around 55-60mph, and this is not expected to change with the 4 stroke. I understand that 125 Buddies exceed this pretty easily. On the 2 strokes, a pipe does a LOT to change this (my Sito Stella now flirts with 70 mph!) But stock you are not getting a faster bike.

7. Handling wise, it seems to be a wash, but with both of them handling VERY different. The buddy is very, very flickable, but Stella just feels very surefooted in corners, allowing me to let it navigate them at faster speeds.

Essentially, riding a Stella vs. a modern twist and go is kind of like riding a Harley instead of a BMW Tourer. The BMW is cheaper, more reliable, more refined, etc. People buying the Harleys aren't necessarily looking for that, they are looking for aesthetics and the general feel of a Harley. I think the same (to a certain extent) is true for Stella riders. I bought mine because I wanted a shifter, I wanted a bigger bike, and I wanted a 2 stroke, and LOVING the look of a classic scooter just sealed the deal.
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Post by illnoise »

Awesome, thanks for the news, Eric!

Posted some of my brilliant insight (snarf) here:

http://2strokebuzz.com/2010/02/02/carb- ... lla-150-4t
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Post by bigbropgo »

Anachronism wrote:
Kaos wrote:
laxer wrote: Looks like a shifty in the video:

topic13148.html
Its a shifty. It even uses the regular Stella/P-150 transmission, so all the trans upgrades will fit. Just the top end has changed(So no 190/210cc Stella kit will fit the 4t Stella)
More than the top end. The whole motor would have to be different, given that there would now be an oiling system and some provision to drive a camshaft.

I'm still very interested in finding out what engine the 4 stroke is based on. I seriously doubt LML (or Genuine) had the resources to develop a 4 stroke from scratch, much more likely that they licensed a design and adapted it to fit the transmission. So which one are they using?

Finally,
I thought the reason many fell in love with it was that it was a twist n go.
To me, this statement is along the same lines as saying "Everyone would love the Ferrari Enzo if it sat 8 and had multiple DVD players for the kids."

You have every other scooter on the market to choose from if you don't want to bang gears, why do you need Stella to lose that too?
Wow....thanks for calling me out like that. Guess I was trying to say that many like the looks of the Stella, more importantly the price tag of a modern, vintage style scooter. The 2t smoke, noise, shifting and maintenance intimidates them. A 4t might be appealing to more. Just an opinion. you analogy of a the enzo is pretty interesting, stupid but interesting.
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Post by Anachronism »

bigbropgo wrote: Wow....thanks for calling me out like that. Guess I was trying to say that many like the looks of the Stella, more importantly the price tag of a modern, vintage style scooter. The 2t smoke, noise, shifting and maintenance intimidates them. A 4t might be appealing to more. Just an opinion. you analogy of a the enzo is pretty interesting, stupid but interesting.
Hey, I didn't mean it like that, I'm just a but confused. To me, there are plenty of scooters that LOOK vintage, the Buddy being one. If somebody wants one that looks vintage yet looks like a Vespa, I think several of the modern vespa models come pretty close to that.

I just don't understand why somebody would want the Stella to become a twist and go when it is the last classic-type scooter sold here. To me, that is the whole point, and if you don't want a manual shift bike, why not buy one of the hundreds of other choices?
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Post by illnoise »

I really don't think there were many people "intimidated by a 2-stroke," while a 4T is easier to maintain in the short run, a 2T certainly has its merits, long-term maintenance is easier, the design is simpler, parts availability is amazing…

The 4-stroke has two benefits, one a result of the other: It is more technologically efficient and thus runs cleaner than the 2stroke, which only a small group of rabid environmentalists* and gas penny pinchers** will care about. As a result of that , though, it's legal in California (and Europe), which opens up the Stella (and LML Star) to a huge target audience of vintage-style scooter lovers in sunny climes who were unable to buy the 2T version because of local emissions regulations. Those people would have owned a Stella years ago, if they'd had the opportunity.

* I'm not knocking the environment, and I'm glad standards are improving, but I see that as a hive-mind decision that's thankfully enforced by governments, and given a choice, most individuals wouldn't make responsible choices in that regard, i.e. there aren't many people who buy a motor vehicle with environmental impact as their primary concern.

As far as gas savings, I've long argued that people use that as a misguided excuse to justify a scooter purchase, rather than a real economic argument. Fuel efficiency savings level off at about 60mpg, and over that, you're not really saving much more money see:
http://2strokebuzz.com/2008/06/22/more-mpg-math
When you factor in the costs of buying, insuring, maintaining a scooter, and it's useful life, it's not saving any money unless you're buying it INSTEAD of a car.
and
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Post by PeterC »

I love my 2005 Stella. I love the shifting, the smoke and the smell, the (Sito+ enhanced) sound and the traditional look. That said, I'm also quite attached to my 2009 Vespa GTS 250. It's a lot less fatiguing on longer rides, smoother, quieter, faster and more powerful. Two different scooters, two completely different personalities. Vive le difference!
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Post by ericalm »

There were plenty of rumors the couple years or so about various engines showing up in the 4T Stella (Kymco and SYM) and I'm sure that was explored but I think the engine is actually from LML. I don't think it's a straight port of the 2T 150. If so, they probably wouldn't have had to lengthen and re-engineer the back end.

LML had a 4T Star a few years ago that went into the existing Star/Stella body. It had very limited distribution and its performance was supposedly not great. Genuine and LML have spent a few years working together to create the new Star/Stella 4T. If it had been an easy process, I assure you Genuine would have had a 4T Stella out as soon as LML went back into production after the strike there ended.

The plus is that the new design will accommodate a much larger, injected 4T engine. The rumor from a dealer in the UK is that LML will have a 200 next year, injected models in 2011/12 and eventually have a 250 and an automatic version. He says he got this straight from LML but you know how that goes. Another strike, another severe downturn in the industry, change in company goals… who knows?
illnoise wrote:As far as gas savings, I've long argued that people use that as a misguided excuse to justify a scooter purchase, rather than a real economic argument. Fuel efficiency savings level off at about 60mpg, and over that, you're not really saving much more money see:
http://2strokebuzz.com/2008/06/22/more-mpg-math
When you factor in the costs of buying, insuring, maintaining a scooter, and it's useful life, it's not saving any money unless you're buying it INSTEAD of a car.
:+!: Heard a dealer recently make a remark about possible high gas prices later this year leading to more scooter sales. Maybe in 2008, but not in 2010—not like 2 years ago at least.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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Post by brape »

illnoise wrote:I really don't think there were many people "intimidated by a 2-stroke," while a 4T is easier to maintain in the short run, a 2T certainly has its merits, long-term maintenance is easier, the design is simpler, parts availability is amazing…

The 4-stroke has two benefits, one a result of the other: It is more technologically efficient and thus runs cleaner than the 2stroke, which only a small group of rabid environmentalists* and gas penny pinchers** will care about. As a result of that , though, it's legal in California (and Europe), which opens up the Stella (and LML Star) to a huge target audience of vintage-style scooter lovers in sunny climes who were unable to buy the 2T version because of local emissions regulations. Those people would have owned a Stella years ago, if they'd had the opportunity.

* I'm not knocking the environment, and I'm glad standards are improving, but I see that as a hive-mind decision that's thankfully enforced by governments, and given a choice, most individuals wouldn't make responsible choices in that regard, i.e. there aren't many people who buy a motor vehicle with environmental impact as their primary concern.

As far as gas savings, I've long argued that people use that as a misguided excuse to justify a scooter purchase, rather than a real economic argument. Fuel efficiency savings level off at about 60mpg, and over that, you're not really saving much more money see:
http://2strokebuzz.com/2008/06/22/more-mpg-math
When you factor in the costs of buying, insuring, maintaining a scooter, and it's useful life, it's not saving any money unless you're buying it INSTEAD of a car.
and
My problem with the 2 stroke has long been environmental concern. I've run the just gotta scoot calculator a few times as gas prices have changed. And ridding the scooter 50% of the time it would take years for it to pay for itself. And then there are things like wanting a second scooter, or a motorcycle to keep feeding your addiction. I'm glad I got my scooter. I wish I had done it earlier as it was an attempt to help my decrepit car last longer. I do think if you will use the scooter for daily commuting and you have an older car that you plan on driving into the ground it is worth looking into since taking all those miles off your car is a help.

anyway now i want a stella. Maybe when I should plan on getting one for a happy finishing school present whenever that day comes.
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Post by TVB »

illnoise wrote:there aren't many people who buy a motor vehicle with environmental impact as their primary concern.
There's a substantial minority who are finally placing it near the top. I don't think too many people picked out the Prius because of the way it looks. In >25 years of car ownership I've never bought one that got less than 30-35mpg (actual), because I never considered a less efficient car. (For the record, I've owned an Escort, Festiva, Civic, Metro, and Accent.) Once I'd crossed all the guzzlers off the list, I didn't necessarily go with the most fuel efficient car I could find, but it was the second factor I used to narrow my choices... right after "not white" and right before "hatchback".
Last edited by TVB on Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by brape »

TVB wrote:
illnoise wrote:there aren't many people who buy a motor vehicle with environmental impact as their primary concern.
There's a substantial minority who are finally placing it near the top.
I'm in there too. I'm disappointed I just realized the HHR was a flex fuel car or I would have looked at it more seriously. I'm also disappointed I couldn't get a diesel kia soul in the states.
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Post by rondothemidget »

ericalm wrote:There were plenty of rumors the couple years or so about various engines showing up in the 4T Stella (Kymco and SYM) and I'm sure that was explored but I think the engine is actually from LML. I don't think it's a straight port of the 2T 150. If so, they probably wouldn't have had to lengthen and re-engineer the back end.

LML had a 4T Star a few years ago that went into the existing Star/Stella body. It had very limited distribution and its performance was supposedly not great. Genuine and LML have spent a few years working together to create the new Star/Stella 4T. If it had been an easy process, I assure you Genuine would have had a 4T Stella out as soon as LML went back into production after the strike there ended.

The plus is that the new design will accommodate a much larger, injected 4T engine. The rumor from a dealer in the UK is that LML will have a 200 next year, injected models in 2011/12 and eventually have a 250 and an automatic version. He says he got this straight from LML but you know how that goes. Another strike, another severe downturn in the industry, change in company goals… who knows?
I'm excited about the 4T Stella but the top speed is a deal breaker for me. I need to go 60 mph + for my regular commute. It looks like I'll have to wait another year or two.
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Post by laxer »

Maybe this means I can get a 2-stroker real cheap in the coming years! :D
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Post by JSharpPhoto »

laxer wrote:Maybe this means I can get a 2-stroker real cheap in the coming years! :D
i doubt it. i think the used 2 stroke stellas are going to be at a higher premium than before.
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Post by laxer »

JSharpPhoto wrote:
laxer wrote:Maybe this means I can get a 2-stroker real cheap in the coming years! :D
i doubt it. i think the used 2 stroke stellas are going to be at a higher premium than before.
Whelp, there went the wind out of my sails... :(
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Post by ericalm »

Well… The 2T version will still be available in most states for at least a year. Whether they manage to retain value over time remains to be seen. As is, you can get a good, fairly low-mileage used Stella for around $2500 or so now. It'll be a while before prices really start to come down. It'll never retain its value as well as a P-series Vespa but I don't think they'll be dirt cheap either.

But pricier than a Bajaj, for sure.
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Post by laxer »

TVB wrote:
illnoise wrote:there aren't many people who buy a motor vehicle with environmental impact as their primary concern.
There's a substantial minority who are finally placing it near the top. I don't think too many people picked out the Prius because of the way it looks. In >25 years of car ownership I've never bought one that got less than 30-35mpg (actual), because I never considered a less efficient car. (For the record, I've owned an Escort, Festiva, Civic, Metro, and Accent.) Once I'd crossed all the guzzlers off the list, I didn't necessarily go with the most fuel efficient car I could find, but it was the second factor I used to narrow my choices... right after "not white" and right before "hatchback".
When I sold Toyotas, we were constantly out of the Prius because so many people wanted one, but I never heard one cite the environment as why they wanted one. I think most of them just wanted a much more fuel-efficient vehicle so they could save on gas, but I wouldn't be surprised if the environmentally friendly label also helped them land on the hybrid.
TVB

Post by TVB »

laxer wrote:When I sold Toyotas, we were constantly out of the Prius because so many people wanted one, but I never heard one cite the environment as why they wanted one. I think most of them just wanted a much more fuel-efficient vehicle so they could save on gas, but I wouldn't be surprised if the environmentally friendly label also helped them land on the hybrid.
Those are really just two sides of the same coin; if someone says they're looking for "fuel-efficient" car to "use less gas", that can be about saving the world as much as saving money.
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Post by laxer »

Sorry, when I said "save on gas," I meant they were looking to cut their costs, it was all about saving money. But, like I said, I'm sure that it didn't hurt that the cars are "green."
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Post by Kaos »

laxer wrote:Sorry, when I said "save on gas," I meant they were looking to cut their costs, it was all about saving money. But, like I said, I'm sure that it didn't hurt that the cars are "green."
Except that nobody counts the costs of replacing the battery at around 50,000 miles. Which can be as much as 10k. There goes the savings!
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Post by pocphil »

The Stella 4T's were on our 2010 Order sheet and it looks like availability will be in April.

I've ordered a pile of them. If they actually arrive in April it will be an absolute coup in the scooter industry. A scooter that arrived and launched when it said it would.

Performance parts WILL show up for the Stella 4T, it's just a matter of time and market demand.

I think it's a great Idea, it has the front disk the Chetak was always lacking, the classic style, the excellent parts support and a ready accessory supply.

I also agree that the 2T Stella's remaining will be sold at a premium. The first time the Stella went away we saw dealers selling available bikes at $500 over MSRP.
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Post by Anachronism »

Kaos wrote:
laxer wrote:Sorry, when I said "save on gas," I meant they were looking to cut their costs, it was all about saving money. But, like I said, I'm sure that it didn't hurt that the cars are "green."
Except that nobody counts the costs of replacing the battery at around 50,000 miles. Which can be as much as 10k. There goes the savings!
I used to sell Toyotas, so if the battery comment is related to the Prius, I think you are mistaken. For one, the battery is warranteed for 8 years and 100,000 miles.

For two, aside from factory defects, the batteries in these cars are essentially running forever. Prius sales started in Japan in 1997, so there is a decent amount of older vehicles on the road to gauge battery life. In a nutshell, most of these cars are on the original batteries with 250,000 miles or more on them.

With the large prius installed base, batteries are also not $10,000. That is pretty close to what they cost in 2001, but economies of scale have brought that down to about $3,000, pretty similar to the cost of an engine replacement.
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Post by ericalm »

There's a whole psychology behind who buys something like the Prius and why. While buyers may have some overarching concern for the environment, that's usually not the only motivation for buying one. I think it's pretty safe to say that if the Prius looked like a Yaris, wasn't so well-marketed and didn't have such a high trendiness factor, it wouldn't have been so successful. I think we can also assume that the overwhelming majority of Prius owners don't have solar panels on their house, aren;t collecting rain water for their lawns, composting, or only buying sustainable and organic foods and household products. Their commitment is usually limited to the hybrid car, recycling, voting and shopping at Whole Foods.

I'm not saying they're hypocrites, just that—like most of us—they care about the environment but their actions on its behalf are limited by practicality, time, cost, and so on.

Environmental benefits, on their own, are rarely sufficient to motivate sales. They need to be combined with design, functionality, ease of use and the right price point. Consumers want to be green, but any inconvenience or sacrifice involved in owning and using a green product has to be offset by other benefits. Some of these are tangible (save at the pump), others less so (brag about your MPGs, social status).

Of course, that's pretty much true for all consumer products, but I think the balance between tangible and intangible benefits is more important when it comes to anything sold as being "green." For the most part, modern scooters tend to favor the less practical benefits. Cost savings aren't that high unless you're getting rid of a car or buying a scooter instead of one but they're fun as hell to ride, come with social benefits and are cool (in some circles).

But ratchet up the practical benefits (to, say, 130mpg), with little sacrifice (a little slower, lower top speed, higher but not ridiculously higher price point) in a more appealing package than most (the classic P-series design) and I think you've got a winner.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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Post by illnoise »

TVB wrote:There's a substantial minority who are finally placing it near the top.
Sure, but a substantial minority (environmentally-minded) of a substantial minority (vintage-ish-scooter enthusiasts) of a far-less-than-substantial minority (scooterists in general) doesn't really add up to much!
TVB wrote:I don't think too many people picked out the Prius because of the way it looks.
Sure, but did they buy it PRIMARILY to save the earth (altruism!) OR did they buy it primarily to save money on gas (self-interest)? Certainly there are some do-gooders out there (and we all wish there were more, I'm certainly not knocking them), but most consumers are in it for themselves.

And buying a Prius INSTEAD of a competing new car makes sense fiscally and environmentally. *Sometimes* buying a scooter makes sense, I'm just saying, a lot of the time, it really doesn't at all, and people use a lot of weird math to justify purchases, and a lot of people are fooling themselves. Even the 'scooter savings calculators' you see out there aren't really looking at the big picture, or people aren't being honest about their usage or the useful life of the scooter.

I don't want to get to political here, and I'm not anti-environmentalist at ALL, i applaud anyone who is doing anything at all to save the environment, I'm fully behind that and I'm not a global-warming-denier idiot or anything like that, I'm just sayin'… there are a lot of companies using "Green" to market products, and consumers eat it up, ha. Buying less, even less 'green' stuff would help!

Bb.
Last edited by illnoise on Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by illnoise »

pocphil wrote:If they actually arrive in April it will be an absolute coup in the scooter industry. A scooter that arrived and launched when it said it would.
Genuine's record isn't *perfect* there, but it's pretty damn good, right? And loads better than just about anyone else!

Genuine is very smart to keep just enough info leaking out to keep people interested, and not over-promoting a product it doesn't have locked-down yet. Even when there's a delay, it's a matter of months, not years. How's that Dragster coming along, LS motorsports? TNG, how's that Scomadi selling? Hammerhead's been doing PR for their fake vespa thingy for a year and a half and apparently they just got some.

Piaggio hypes products a year before they come out in EUROPE, then we have to wait longer to get them here. They've been PR'ing the hybrid MP3 for like four years now. That's gotta hurt their sales, because everyone's holding out for the next model. By the time stuff gets released in the US, it's old news and last year's model.

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Post by Kaos »

Anachronism wrote:
Kaos wrote:
laxer wrote:Sorry, when I said "save on gas," I meant they were looking to cut their costs, it was all about saving money. But, like I said, I'm sure that it didn't hurt that the cars are "green."
Except that nobody counts the costs of replacing the battery at around 50,000 miles. Which can be as much as 10k. There goes the savings!
I used to sell Toyotas, so if the battery comment is related to the Prius, I think you are mistaken. For one, the battery is warranteed for 8 years and 100,000 miles.

For two, aside from factory defects, the batteries in these cars are essentially running forever. Prius sales started in Japan in 1997, so there is a decent amount of older vehicles on the road to gauge battery life. In a nutshell, most of these cars are on the original batteries with 250,000 miles or more on them.

With the large prius installed base, batteries are also not $10,000. That is pretty close to what they cost in 2001, but economies of scale have brought that down to about $3,000, pretty similar to the cost of an engine replacement.
I'm glad to hear that. All I have to go by is my father. He runs a very large local dealership chain's repair shop. He replaces several Prius batteries a month, and told me once that they tend to go out at around 50,000 miles.

$3,000 is much more reasonable than the prices that I'd heard of in the past, though I'd imagine its exactly like you said. The economy of scale brings them down.
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