Countersteering

[teabow1]

I've read that bicyclists often countersteer without knowing it.

But, I wonder if the technique of countersteering on a bicycle (at least my bicycle) is a bit different than on a scooter. I haven't exactly kept full focus on how I do (or don't) countersteer on my bicycle (a Trek 520) but I'll describe how I do know how I do my leaning turns.

First of all, a Trek 520 is what is called a touring bike, which means it is basically a road bike but with a very stable geometry (i.e., a frame that is very stable and built for carrying loads, less aggressively angled than a racing bike) and often with a mix of road bicycle and mountain bicycle components. The Trek 520's seating position is not as aggressively angled as a racing bike, but also not as upright as some mountain bikes are. It's somewhere in-between. The grips are like that of a road/racing bicycle.

Anyhow, what I do notice of how I do my leaning turns is I literally push my bike into the angle of the lean. I don't know what my body is doing though but I know that I'm pushing my bike into the lean. Picture how kids and many adult riders when biking up hill they get off the saddle and then as then pedal, they (I) shift the handlebar left and right and left and right as a way to assist the pedalling.

The same way that this pushing/shifting the handlebar left and right is the same way I get my bike into the lean. Now, because in a bicycle your foot is connected to the mechanisms that drive the wheel, my foot is also pressing into one of the pedals for the lean (I don't know which one).

I wonder if this kind of technique leaning is a little different than countersteering on a scooter or motorcycle because:
in a scooter the pushing action comes primarily from the top (the hands and body, whereas in a bicycle because the legs are also connected to the bicycle the legs also do some kind of pushing on the bike. It would seem then that on a bicycle, the top (torso and hands) of the human body and the bottom (the legs) are all being used to help push the bike into a lean whereas on a scooter the bottom part isn't really doing active pushing. On a bicycle, the pedal acts as a semi-stable platform for the body on which it can push the bike to lean. On a scooter, this wouldn't happen since the foot is on a floorboard.

Anyone have anything to chime in here about this? This is only my beginning observation since I've only been on a scooter just recently for less than 5 minutes and the experience was quite different than riding a bicycle despite another experienced bicyclist on this board here saying he found it very similar to riding scooter.

I think how the body is connected to the bicycle is a little different than how the body is connected to the scooter which is why the physicality of the experience is a little different.

Thoughts?

P.S. I'll know more about this when I actually begin to take the basic rider course on December 9th!

[Ethan Allison]

You seem like you're overthinking this. All you need to do is push on the bar and lean into the turn. If something feels wrong, then push more/less. If it feels too fast, straighten out, slow down, and go back into the turn. Don't spend too much time concentrating on any one thing or you'll have issues.

[teabow1]

You seem like you're overthinking this. All you need to do is push on the bar and lean into the turn. If something feels wrong, then push more/less. If it feels too fast, straighten out, slow down, and go back into the turn. Don't spend too much time concentrating on any one thing or you'll have issues.

Nah, not really overthinking it. I don't even have a scooter to try any of this.

I'm only trying to put down into writing how the experience of leaning into a turn while on a bicycle may have some bodily sensual differences (and perhaps physical action differences) compared to when riding a scooter / motorcycle.

I am an academic So . . . there is something useful in being able to describe physical sensations using words

[hchoa]

I don't think what you're describing of doing with your feet on a bicycle is the same as counter steering. That's more of a CG shift, which you can do with your scooter as well just not as easily and even more difficult on a heavier motorcycle (this is why a lot of people have trouble with U turns and slow maneuvers/turns).

Counter steering on a bicycle isn't as noticeable because its normally not very necessary. You can simply just lean with your weight and the bike will respond somewhat promptly because the bike is so light. On a heavy bike though its pretty much necessary if you want the bike to respond quickly.

[teabow1]

I see. Yes, I think what I'm doing with my feet along with using the hand on the handlebar to shift the bike is a change of centre of gravity. I'm trying to think what happens to how I maneuver the bicycle when I have all four of my panniers loaded (two in the front wheel rack and two in the back wheel rack). The balance there is very different than when riding a bike without other weight. I can't really recall what happens to the lean-to's and how I do them. I have done touring on my bicycle with weighted panniers and while climbing uphill is very slow, going downhill (and downhill on curves) are fast. But it's been a while since I've done that and I can't remember now.

Guess I'll find out how countersteering works on scooters come December!

[ericalm]

The more you think about it when you start riding, the more it'll seem weird and clunky. As with your bicycle, it will happen intuitively. For a small(ish) wheeled scooter, you can't turn without countersteering.

Just focus on the fundamentals. If you take the MSF class (highly recommended), they'll teach you some of the basics. Once you get comfortable, then you can start thinking about it and get into the finer points of countersteering. And it'll be a revelation!

[teabow1]

Oh yeah. I'm taking the basic rider course. First class is in Dec 9th ending two days later Looking forward to it!

[viney266]

Though describing it is a useful skill to have. I will agree with Ericalm and advise you not to focus on the "action" of doing it. After teaching MSF courses for 7 years and then roadracing at the instructor level . I have found that most riders are already doing this by instinct; without thought.

Years ago, ( way to many it seems) when I was taking the instructor course for MSF; there was a fellow instructor candidate that just refused to believe the concept of counter steering. After class we stood around talking about it. I convinced him to just forget all the riding skills he knew and try just pushing directly on the bar on the way home.
Next evening at class he was a new believer. He had been doing it for years and had just never realized it.
Same on the roadrace course. You CAN'T get around a race course at even 50% pace without utilizing this technique. Yet students would stare at their instructors in disbelief upon hearing this concept from time to time.
If you are an avid cyclist you are already doing it, and it will come natural to you on the scooter. Enjoy the course +1 for being smart enough to take it

[Syd]

You seem like you're overthinking this. All you need to do is push on the bar and lean into the turn. If something feels wrong, then push more/less. If it feels too fast, straighten out, slow down, and go back into the turn. Don't spend too much time concentrating on any one thing or you'll have issues.

Nah, not really overthinking it. I don't even have a scooter to try any of this.

I'm only trying to put down into writing how the experience of leaning into a turn while on a bicycle may have some bodily sensual differences (and perhaps physical action differences) compared to when riding a scooter / motorcycle.

I am an academic So . . . there is something useful in being able to describe physical sensations using words

Sorry, but I gotta go with Ethan on this. You countersteer when you turn your bike, unless your speed is very slow. You may not turn the handlebars to do it, but the net effect is the same.

Just relax, keeps your turns slow at first and turn your head. Before you know it you'll be knee dragging.

[JHScoot]

happens naturally. you do it without thinking about it. like walking. in fact if you ride at all you do it. otherwise you'd be falling all the time

[KABarash]

Something makes me think, ( ) I remember hearing or reading somewhere, the movements, handling techniques &etc that translate from bicycling to scootering are as if you're on a long coast on the bicycle while 'under power' on the scooter. (or something like that)

[Tazio]

A very simple test for counter steering while riding a bike, scooter or motorcycle is just ride in a straight line and push one side of the handlebars. Be careful, because your going to go in the direction of the bar you push so leave enough room for recovery.

It's more noticible as the weight of the machine increases. You don't even think about it on a bicycle. The Buddy abit more, the Vespa even more. I would assume on a big Harley it's real noticible.

[teabow1]

A very simple test for counter steering while riding a bike, scooter or motorcycle is just ride in a straight line and push one side of the handlebars. Be careful, because your going to go in the direction of the bar you push so leave enough room for recovery.

It's more noticible as the weight of the machine increases. You don't even think about it on a bicycle. The Buddy abit more, the Vespa even more. I would assume on a big Harley it's real noticible.

I seem to recall now that when my bicycle is loaded with touring gear that the way I typically turn (say left), is pull the handlebar on the horizontal axis to the left. I don't exactly call that movement pressing on the handlebar. Rather I'm pulling left while I THINK my body is going right....

[hchoa]

I seem to recall now that when my bicycle is loaded with touring gear that the way I typically turn (say left), is pull the handlebar on the horizontal axis to the left. I don't exactly call that movement pressing on the handlebar. Rather I'm pulling left while I THINK my body is going right....

Is that when you're going very fast? You can pull left and turn left if you're going slow, by playing with your balance via food petals and the rest of your body.

But if you are going at a good speed you should have been thrown out of the bike due to the sudden centrifugal accel. Think about turning left on a car going fast and how you're body gets pushed to the right. On a bike you don't have seat belts or other restraints so you'll just fly off to the right.


Go very very fast in a straight line on a bicycle then lightly push to the right and just naturally go into the right turn. That's counter steering. Instead of being thrown out of the bike, you're using the small centrifugal force (caused by steering to the opposite side for a fraction of a second) to your advantage to help you get into your lean and turn. It all happens in less than a second which is why its so hard to feel and see. I hope that made sense.

[Lotrat]

You can see and feel how it works with a simple experiment. Pull the front tire off your bicycle and hold it by the axle. Roll the tire across the ground a few time to get some speed. Better yet, have a friend spin it. The faster the better. Now keep the axle parallel to the ground and try and turn the wheel. You'll feel the gyro effect. Now instead of trying to turn it, push one side. You need to work with the force of the gyro, not against it. The bigger the wheel is the more force you'll have. I've never notice it on a bicycle, but I do on scooters. I'm not sure how you could ride a scooter without knowing how to initiate a counter-steer in a turn. Once you get up to speed there is no other way to turn it.

[teabow1]

Okay, I was observing how I handle my bicycle today and I DEFINITELY do countersteer.

However, unlike how scooter/motorcycle literature describe the action of initiating it as "pressing down on the handlebar", that's not how I "activate" it nor is it how I sense it when I bicycle. I initiate the action by pulling the bicycle from the handlebar to the left if I want to turn left or pulling the bicycle from the handlebar to the right if I want to turn right.

I wouldn't call this a "pressing on the handlebar" so much as "pulling on the horizontal axis of the handlebar". The difference might be due to how lightweight bicycles are whereas scooters and motorcycles are considerably heavier.

[Lotrat]

Here's a good demo:

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XhRydTnSDes" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This one is just cool:

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LhFtg7xM1DM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[ericalm]

Okay, I was observing how I handle my bicycle today and I DEFINITELY do countersteer.

However, unlike how scooter/motorcycle literature describe the action of initiating it as "pressing down on the handlebar", that's not how I "activate" it nor is it how I sense it when I bicycle. I initiate the action by pulling the bicycle from the handlebar to the left if I want to turn left or pulling the bicycle from the handlebar to the right if I want to turn right.

I wouldn't call this a "pressing on the handlebar" so much as "pulling on the horizontal axis of the handlebar". The difference might be due to how lightweight bicycles are whereas scooters and motorcycles are considerably heavier.

What style of bike do you have? It's closer to "pressing" on a bike with straight bars. But even on the scooter, that verb just kind of confuses things. Many common descriptions sound as if you push the left bar forward to go left. Kinda sorta but on a scooter, it's more like pushing downwards and forward.

The big gist of it is that when you're artfully countersteering, you're using your hands to initiate and control the turn, not your body. It's a much more refined and precise way of doing it. I see riders (of all kinds of bikes) throwing their bodies back and forth into leans to turn and swerve, controlling with their hips. Not really a good way to maintain control.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C848R9xWrjc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's the full article and multiple videos that accompany the above one: http://www.obairlann.net/reaper/motorcy ... ering.html

[teabow1]

I have what's called a touring bike. It looks like a road bike but with some differences such as wider and longer in some areas like a mountain bike, but the bottom bracket is also lower. The type of handle bar it has is the "drop" kind.

Anyhow, I'll be sure to learn about all of this anew in the basic rider course on December 9th! I look forward to it.

[teabow1]

Thanks for the video. I appreciate how the narrator says that on bicycles the countersteering is hardly noticeable and is done in split seconds (way faster than on a motorcycle) because of its lightweight. I think the difference in weight make a difference in physical sensation of the ride.
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The Wikipedia article on countersteering is also very informative on how it is likely done differently on bicycles versus heavier vehicles like scooters. It talks about the difference between physical countersteering and conscious countersteering. And importantly it also talks about bicyclists being being able to countersteer by shifting bodyweight (apparently called "counter-lean" by some bicyclist authorities). I probably do a lot more bodyweight shifting though I have also done "stuff" to my handlebar when the bicycle is heavier.