Soft sieze buddy 70
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Soft sieze buddy 70
I got a prima 70cc cylinder kit installed about 170 miles ago, and I've only been riding it about 35-40 mph, recently I've been going over to about 40-45. Today I rode it and when I was doing about 45 I hear a space gun type of sound, like if you say church "pew". Then my engine shuts off and I don't coast to a stop, but rather it's like my brakes are halfway pressed. I pull over turn off the bike and then start it up and it works.
please help
please help
Last edited by slusher5 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- killbilly
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If someone set of a very small thermonuclear device in your vicinity, it might sound like space gun, and the electromagnetic pulse could cause your engine to shut off.
The "like my brakes are halfway pressed" part sounds like the combination of an unpowered engine plus an engaged transmission. If you manually shut off the engine while moving, the clutch doesn't disengage immediately. Until it does, the engine mechanism acts as a drag on the wheels, and that would feel a bit like braking. (A bit like down-shifting to slow down in a manual-transmission car.) Then when the clutch disengages, you start coasting freely. This doesn't explain why your engine might have stopped, but it could explain what happened afterward.
The "like my brakes are halfway pressed" part sounds like the combination of an unpowered engine plus an engaged transmission. If you manually shut off the engine while moving, the clutch doesn't disengage immediately. Until it does, the engine mechanism acts as a drag on the wheels, and that would feel a bit like braking. (A bit like down-shifting to slow down in a manual-transmission car.) Then when the clutch disengages, you start coasting freely. This doesn't explain why your engine might have stopped, but it could explain what happened afterward.
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It sounds like you went excessively lean or rich for a moment, which isn't a huge deal if it doesn't keep happening (lots of reasons it can happen). The key here is that it started up fine and runs okay - that's not a blown engine.
As to the perception of there being something wrong now, it may be that you are just creating that (happens to me all the time). My best suggestion would be to check the plug and see how it looks to get an idea for whether or not you have a consistent rich/lean condition.
Also, depending on miles and all that, you may want to get your trans belts checked. I misdiagnosed a slipping belt as an engine problem for quite awhile until I found out the truth - and when it finally broke I was convinced the engine was blown!
As to the perception of there being something wrong now, it may be that you are just creating that (happens to me all the time). My best suggestion would be to check the plug and see how it looks to get an idea for whether or not you have a consistent rich/lean condition.
Also, depending on miles and all that, you may want to get your trans belts checked. I misdiagnosed a slipping belt as an engine problem for quite awhile until I found out the truth - and when it finally broke I was convinced the engine was blown!
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With a CVT transmission, in many/most cases, you will not experience a locked wheel.slusher5 wrote:I read a post on modern vespa about soft seizes and they talk about the back wheel locking up, but I didn't experience that. I might of fallen had that happened.
This sounds like a soft sieze to me.
I would pull the head and look at the cylinder bore to look for signs of a sieze and lean operation. A compression test wouldn't hurt either, especially if you have a "BEFORE" number to compare it to.
Valves are for wussies.
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Hey everyone! I had the Scooterworks Stage 2 Performance Kit installed about 2 weeks ago from the dealer I purchased my buddy 50 from. After driving about 10 miles and at about 35 actual mph, I also heard a "popping" sound and was able to pull over to the side of the road. Thank God I had my uncle following just in case! I felt my heart drop to my stomach! I just waited 2 weeks for my newly upgraded scooter and put a lot of money into it. I did the M1 maintenance at the same time the upgrade hoping it would safe on labor costs. I immediately called the dealer/mechanic and he told me to try and restart it, and it did! He said it could have been a gas bubble or something. I was able to drive it home another 10 miles at 35 mph actual and is driving great 250 miles later. I've been driving carefully as they told me it takes another 300 miles to properly break it in and I'm supposed to take in for another M1 maintenance!? Does that sound correct?
Slusher5 - keep us posted on what they find out, but hopefully it was just a rare occurance.
Sorry for the long message, my first post.
Take care and happy riding!
Slusher5 - keep us posted on what they find out, but hopefully it was just a rare occurance.
Sorry for the long message, my first post.
Take care and happy riding!
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Just curious, how much did all the performance parts cost you? I have to wonder why you bought a Buddy 50, then spent a lot of money modding it into something unreliable, when you could have just bought the 125 to begin with, and it would be faster than your 50/70 will ever be, and be reliable at the same time. Jerry.
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well, i got a 50 to begin with cause I didn't have the money at the time for a 125/150
pipe was around $125-175(installed myself)
cylinder, spring, weights $110(probably $250 install/tuning)
I heard that 70cc buddy is comparable to a 150cc though cause 70cc is 2 stroke and 150 is 4 stroke in terms of speed/accel, the 150 is more reliable
pipe was around $125-175(installed myself)
cylinder, spring, weights $110(probably $250 install/tuning)
I heard that 70cc buddy is comparable to a 150cc though cause 70cc is 2 stroke and 150 is 4 stroke in terms of speed/accel, the 150 is more reliable
I definitely understand the disire to modify things, I have been doing it with cars since I was about 13 (now 51). I got into modifying 50cc pedal mopeds for awhile, and built a few really fast ones, but their engine life was very short. You could buy lots of go fast parts ( My favorite was an 80cc Metrakit on a Puch E50 engine) With the right pipe, carb, filter, compression, porting, timing, etc., you could get 60 mph out of something that went 30 mph stock. But only a short time before the engine blew up.
With cars you can get parts to beef up the whole engine/transmission/rear axle to handle the extra power, allowing you to build a seriously souped up engine that is just as reliable, if not more so, than a stock engine. You can't get these parts for motorcycles/scooters/mopeds. Not against modifying, just like (and need) my scooters to be reliable. Jerry.
With cars you can get parts to beef up the whole engine/transmission/rear axle to handle the extra power, allowing you to build a seriously souped up engine that is just as reliable, if not more so, than a stock engine. You can't get these parts for motorcycles/scooters/mopeds. Not against modifying, just like (and need) my scooters to be reliable. Jerry.
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Can we have one thread about 50's that does not devolve into some derivative of "you should have just bought a...?"JunkyardDog wrote:I definitely understand the disire to modify things, I have been doing it with cars since I was about 13 (now 51). I got into modifying 50cc pedal mopeds for awhile, and built a few really fast ones, but their engine life was very short. You could buy lots of go fast parts ( My favorite was an 80cc Metrakit on a Puch E50 engine) With the right pipe, carb, filter, compression, porting, timing, etc., you could get 60 mph out of something that went 30 mph stock. But only a short time before the engine blew up.
With cars you can get parts to beef up the whole engine/transmission/rear axle to handle the extra power, allowing you to build a seriously souped up engine that is just as reliable, if not more so, than a stock engine. You can't get these parts for motorcycles/scooters/mopeds. Not against modifying, just like (and need) my scooters to be reliable. Jerry.
Really, this is not related to his problem, or the thread at all, and it gets really annoying to come here for help and have this hit every 50cc thread.
There are plenty of valid reason to both own and mod a 50cc- this is why they sell both 50cc scooters and mods for them. Just because it was not your choice doesn't mean you get carte blanche to pass judgement on his choice.
Valves are for wussies.
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Not really. A 2 stroke tends to make more power than a 4 stroke OF THE SAME SIZE. 2 stroke 50's tend to be MUCH snappier than 4 stroke 50ccs.slusher5 wrote:
I heard that 70cc buddy is comparable to a 150cc though cause 70cc is 2 stroke and 150 is 4 stroke in terms of speed/accel, the 150 is more reliable
This is mainly becuase a 2 stroke fires on every rotation, while a 4 stroker has a dead rotation.
However, per cylinder fire, a 4 stroke tends to be more effiecient and make more power.
So, you have a 2 stroke that makes less power per ignition, yet fires twice as much vs. a 4 stroke.
In the end, a 2 stroke will tend to make somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% more power (wildly dependent on design) than a similarly sized 4 stroke.
This certainly does not mean a 70cc will compare to a 150 cc, but it very likely be faster than just about all of the 4 stroke 50's with 70cc kits.
Because of their design, 2 strokes also tend to be very responsive to modifications, and because of their simple design, are easy to mod. A pipe can make a huge difference on a 2 stroke, while it tends to make a minimal difference on most 4 strokes.
A 2 stroke has an inferior oiling system, and the cylinder wall ports also increase wear on piston rings. This means that a typical 2 stroke will not last as long as a 4 stroke, but because it is a simpler engine design, it is typically MUCH easier and cheaper to overhaul.
I prefer 2 strokes because I feel the advantages outweigh the cons. I like that the 2 strokes are easy to mod, and easy to fix when they blow up. They are also simple to diagnose- if they have fuel, compression, and spark, they will run, period.
Valves are for wussies.
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I think the better way is to check the color of the plug for tune. if it bogs, that probably means it is running rich now.slusher5 wrote:Anachronism, thanks for defending 50cc's
well I put an 85 jet in and it just slightly bogs, but nothing bad, hopefully its running safer than before
it's been about 200 miles since the parts were installed, is it ok for me to see how fast it goes, and go on 30min-1hr sustained 45-50bmph rides?
It may be that you need to order a jet somewhere between 80-85 to get it dialed in right, assuming that the 80 jet wasn't ok itself (it could be).
I think a compression test is definitely in order before riding it much more at all. If your engine is damaged, better to find out now than to open it up and have it completely destroy itself.
Valves are for wussies.
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well, the short answer is if your mechanically inclined at all, a compression gage can run you anywhere from 20 to alot of dollars. I bought one from our local version of pep boys for like 30 bucks. It's super easy to check.
Remove spark plug hook up gage, either kick or turn the motor over and read what it says.
Not sure what the compression should be for your scoot, maybe anachronism, or somebody else would know better.
But checking it is not that hard at all if you got the proper tool.
Remove spark plug hook up gage, either kick or turn the motor over and read what it says.
Not sure what the compression should be for your scoot, maybe anachronism, or somebody else would know better.
But checking it is not that hard at all if you got the proper tool.
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Most scooters are between 90 and 120 lbs. Anywhere in that range and you're probably fine.Wheelz wrote:well, the short answer is if your mechanically inclined at all, a compression gage can run you anywhere from 20 to alot of dollars. I bought one from our local version of pep boys for like 30 bucks. It's super easy to check.
Remove spark plug hook up gage, either kick or turn the motor over and read what it says.
Not sure what the compression should be for your scoot, maybe anachronism, or somebody else would know better.
But checking it is not that hard at all if you got the proper tool.
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The fix is replacing the piston, rings and cylinder.slusher5 wrote:is running slightly rich a problem? if the compression test finds a problem then what? is the test just so you know something is wrong or can you fix the problem
It is important to check because if you did seize the motor, there could be damage in there that will cause the motor to destroy itself when stressed, which will then mean a replacement of the entire thing.
Better to check and spend a few hundred bucks if the top end is bad, then not check it and regret it later.
A compression tester is a very, very handy tool to have in the scooter world, especially on 2 strokes. On a 2 stroke, if you have a good compression reading, you can essentially rule out engine problems as the source of your motor not running right (leaving carb, spark, and vacuum, which is really a carburetion issue).
Valves are for wussies.
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How is this one not in the "Double Entendre" posts thread yet?
That reminds me of my favorite joke (easily modifiable for your town!)
A penguin is out riding his old Vespa GS around Ravenswood one afternoon, and suddenly it konks out, and he can't get it started again. He checks for spark and it's all good, and the carb looks OK but it just won't kick over. As luck would have it, he was only a few blocks from Scooterworks, so he pushes it there and --miracle of miracles-- they were caught up on their waiting list for the day and the mechanic says, "sure, we can take a look, it'll take about an hour."
The penguin buys a copy of Scoot Quarterly and waddles south to Foster Pantry and hangs out in the frozen food section with some ice cream and sardines, and reads his magazine.
So he kills some time and heads back up to the shop. He goes back to the service desk and the mechanic sees him. "Hey, penguin, looks like you blew a seal!"
"No, that's just vanilla ice cream!" says the penguin, wiping his beak. "What's up with my bike?
That reminds me of my favorite joke (easily modifiable for your town!)
A penguin is out riding his old Vespa GS around Ravenswood one afternoon, and suddenly it konks out, and he can't get it started again. He checks for spark and it's all good, and the carb looks OK but it just won't kick over. As luck would have it, he was only a few blocks from Scooterworks, so he pushes it there and --miracle of miracles-- they were caught up on their waiting list for the day and the mechanic says, "sure, we can take a look, it'll take about an hour."
The penguin buys a copy of Scoot Quarterly and waddles south to Foster Pantry and hangs out in the frozen food section with some ice cream and sardines, and reads his magazine.
So he kills some time and heads back up to the shop. He goes back to the service desk and the mechanic sees him. "Hey, penguin, looks like you blew a seal!"
"No, that's just vanilla ice cream!" says the penguin, wiping his beak. "What's up with my bike?
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
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bs he is trying to cover his rectum
take your plastics off that the head off and slide the bore up and look for a scuf mark
with a quailty bbk your compression should be 100 or higher it should be 120 to 140 if its in tip top just broke in shape
infact part of proper set up is to double check the bbk compression after a few heat cycles along with runing squish checks to ensure that things are in proper running order
take your plastics off that the head off and slide the bore up and look for a scuf mark
with a quailty bbk your compression should be 100 or higher it should be 120 to 140 if its in tip top just broke in shape
infact part of proper set up is to double check the bbk compression after a few heat cycles along with runing squish checks to ensure that things are in proper running order
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Every scooter forum created is full of scoots that are currently running in the various shades of grey category. I'm not ripping on you personally. I just have never heard that before. Its def not black and white in the 2t world. Everyone in this thread is kinda giving you a check list of sorts. You may not find any results from a compression test, but it can help rule things out and narrow the search for problems. Or like others have mentioned, find a small issue before it becomes catastrophic. Check out www.49ccscoot.com.( think that's it.) there's a post with picks about a compression test and how to read the results. He also shows steps to buy some parts and make your own tester. Best of luck.slusher5 wrote:just talked with my mechanic and he is saying that i don't need a compression test because the scooter is running and that its very black and white if there was something wrong, like that it's either going to run or not going to run
no i don't ride a scooter, i am a scooter pilot!
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Wrong answer!!! You can have a motor with poor compression run basically fine. The motor STILL HAS ISSUES!!! Do the compression check, its a $30 tool if you buy a cheap one at somewhere like Harbor Freight.slusher5 wrote:just talked with my mechanic and he is saying that i don't need a compression test because the scooter is running and that its very black and white if there was something wrong, like that it's either going to run or not going to run
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Right.Kaos wrote:Wrong answer!!! You can have a motor with poor compression run basically fine. The motor STILL HAS ISSUES!!! Do the compression check, its a $30 tool if you buy a cheap one at somewhere like Harbor Freight.slusher5 wrote:just talked with my mechanic and he is saying that i don't need a compression test because the scooter is running and that its very black and white if there was something wrong, like that it's either going to run or not going to run
Valves are for wussies.
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Yesgearhead wrote:soft seized?
At 170miles it wasn't even close to being broken in. I know that break in procedures are controversial. I have always used the easy does it, vary speed method with good success.
I always jet fat during break in. The worst that can happen is a fouled plug, $3
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Kaos wrote:Wrong answer!!! You can have a motor with poor compression run basically fine. The motor STILL HAS ISSUES!!! Do the compression check, its a $30 tool if you buy a cheap one at somewhere like Harbor Freight.slusher5 wrote:just talked with my mechanic and he is saying that i don't need a compression test because the scooter is running and that its very black and white if there was something wrong, like that it's either going to run or not going to run
Kaos is right...just check the freaking compression! If your going to run kitted there are tools you have to have and things you must do. You can't just slap a top end on and blast off!
Running kitted isn't for everyone...but it is fun!
My 67 GT is HEAVILY kitted
My 06 Buddy125 is bone stock..its just too good the way it is. To me..I'm not going to get an increase in performance to justify the money, work, and reduction in reliability.
Last edited by BuddyRaton on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NO!slusher5 wrote:Anachronism, thanks for defending 50cc's
well I put an 85 jet in and it just slightly bogs, but nothing bad, hopefully its running safer than before
it's been about 200 miles since the parts were installed, is it ok for me to see how fast it goes, and go on 30min-1hr sustained 45-50bmph rides?
Your getting some really good advice here...take it. It sounds to me like you were running lean...the main cause of 2T seizure. The deceiving part is that they run fantastic...right before they lock up.
So...check compression
pull the jug..don't just take a peek. run your finger nail over it and try to feel scratches...same with the piston.
When you get it back together run some plug chops to get your jetting right
check your timing.
You need...at a minimum...a decent torque wrench and a timing light
If it did soft seize...and not badly...you may be able to get away with a light sanding instead of re-bore or replacement.
And yeah...a messed up motor will still run...sometimes. I soft seized the snot out of my 67GT at about 65 mph...locked up the rear wheel and almost pooped my pants. I got it running again but the top end was shot.
Good luck and keep us updated
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
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- Kaos
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As another example, I worked on my aunt's Diamo Retro 50cc 2T (Yeah, Chinese bike)BuddyRaton wrote: And yeah...a messed up motor will still run...sometimes. I soft seized the snot out of my 67GT at about 65 mph...locked up the rear wheel and almost pooped my pants. I got it running again but the top end was shot.
Good luck and keep us updated
She'd run it outa oil. It still ran and idled great, but she was wondering why it now topped out at about 20mph. I compression checked it and it checked at 65lbs. I pulled the top end and discovered that the piston was COOKED. It had long gouged scores outa it, the rings were welded in place, and the cylinder looked like someone had taken a grinder to it.
But it still ran.
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Even the aggressive break in procedures (agressive being high RPM and lots of throttle) still require varying throttle and lots of cool down periods.BuddyRaton wrote:Yesgearhead wrote:soft seized?
At 170miles it wasn't even close to being broken in. I know that break in procedures are controversial. I have always used the easy does it, vary speed method with good success.
I always jet fat during break in. The worst that can happen is a fouled plug, $3
The goal of a break in is to get good ring seal by using the cylinder crosshatch pattern to sand down the piston rings. This generates LOTS of heat (probably 75-100% more heat than a broken in motor) and runs a severe risk of siezing.
A motor is not really fully broken in until about 1000 miles. After 200-300, most of the break in is completed, but the motor still runs hotter and still needs to be babied- no prolonged full throttle and definitely no "Lets see how fast it will go" runs.
When I break in engines, for the first 20 miles, I follow the following break in procedure:
I will run the engine full throttle up to 80% of redline, reduce throttle to hold that rpm for a few seconds, then reduce throttle back to idle and engine brake back to about 50% rpm, hold it there for a few seconds, then accellerate back to 80%. I'll do this for about 5 miles, then give it a break, let it cool down, and then do it again. I won't "normally" drive the car/scoot (like to work, or anywhere else) until I have done this for the 20 miles.
The whole point of this exercise is to get a good rpm going to "sand down" the rings, without doing too much rpm for too long. Engine braking also helps ensure that you "square off" the rings for a better seal but getting force on both the top and bottom of the piston ring.
The first few miles are the most important for good ring seal, the rest is more about keeping your engine from destroying itself from heat before all the parts wear in nice and smooth.
I have yet to tear down a motor I have broken in like this and see blowby, even on a chevy small block that saw about 150 bottles of nitrous on a 200 HP shot. I'm not saying that other methods don't work, but my method works for me.
Valves are for wussies.
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I'm not mechanically inclined and I don't have a lot of tools(just phillips screwdriver and socket wrench set)
how difficult is it to test the compression and aside from the compression gauge and socket wrench set what tools do I need? would it be cheaper to have a shop test it?
thanks so much for all the input
how difficult is it to test the compression and aside from the compression gauge and socket wrench set what tools do I need? would it be cheaper to have a shop test it?
thanks so much for all the input
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If your going to run kitted your gonna need one. Pickup one for like $30 at sears. Read the instructions.
Pull out the spark plug....screw in the compression tester...kick it over a few times
Pull out the spark plug....screw in the compression tester...kick it over a few times
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
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'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
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'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
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I have no idea how to get to the spark plugs and it would probably take me hours more than someone who knew, if only my mechanic would offer to help but he is convinced nothing is wrong.
How long do you think it will take altogether? also if the cylinder is damaged would I be able to put my stock one in or would the weights and jets not work well with stock cylinder?
How long do you think it will take altogether? also if the cylinder is damaged would I be able to put my stock one in or would the weights and jets not work well with stock cylinder?
- Kaos
- Member
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- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 5:39 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
Well, its hard to say when you state you have no idea what you're doing. I could do it in about 5 minutes, but I've done it many times before.slusher5 wrote:I have no idea how to get to the spark plugs and it would probably take me hours more than someone who knew, if only my mechanic would offer to help but he is convinced nothing is wrong.
How long do you think it will take altogether? also if the cylinder is damaged would I be able to put my stock one in or would the weights and jets not work well with stock cylinder?
Assuming that you damaged only the top end, yes you can just go back to your stock one.