two stroke or four stroke?

[brenttannehill]

I called a Genuine Dealer in Portland OR today and asked about the great deals that I've been hearing about on this website. They're lowest price is $3500, which doesn't seem that great to me. Also, they said that this is for the older two stroke 2009 models, and starting in 2010, they'll all be four stroke bikes. Are all stellas going to four stroke, or is this just a dealer preference?

[illnoise]

As I understand it, Oregon and Washington have adopted the CARB (California) emissions standards, so the 2-strokes wouldn't be compliant there anyway, or in other states in the coming years.

Probably for that reason (I bet CA, WA, and OR are all in the top 5 or 6 scooter markets) the 2-strokes have been discontinued (at least by Genuine, not sure if LML's still making them for other markets)

Changes in California emissions laws in 1985-86 spelled the end of the Vespa in the U.S. market until 1999, so it's good LML were able to adapt quickly to far more stringent emission laws today!

[bdonay]

Heard some dealers are selling 09 Stella 2t for with $800 off making it $2,800. And the 08 are getting an extra $200 off in addition to the $800 making them $2600. Sounds like your dealer is just trying to get you to buy it for the full price and keep the dealer kick back for himself. Make sure you tell them about the deal on Genuine's web site, otherwise I would find another dealer. They can always ship it to you.

[illnoise]

They can always ship it to you.

They can (maybe) DELIVER it once it's prepped. Genuine dealers can't sell crated bikes. Genuine prohibits it I believe, and it's illegal in a lot of states anyway.

And if you buy from out of state, you may have problems titling it if it's not CARB approved.

[Corine]

Mention the deal on Genuine's site. I had to mention it when I bought my Buddy at the Portland dealer 3 weeks ago, and then they honored it.

[mattgordon]

They can always ship it to you.

They can (maybe) DELIVER it once it's prepped. Genuine dealers can't sell crated bikes. Genuine prohibits it I believe, and it's illegal in a lot of states anyway.

And if you buy from out of state, you may have problems titling it if it's not CARB approved.

If you live in Califormia...thats "will" not "may".

[brenttannehill]

I cannot find the "deal" that everyone's talking about in their website. All I see is $3599. How exactly do I navigate to that deal?
Thanks for the help.
Brent

[craho]

on genuine's front page (http://www.genuinescooters.com/) wait for the slides to change and click on the one that says Hot September Sale. A popup window will open with the discounts.

I think I may be deciding on a Stella next week. Can't wait!

Good Luck

[ericalm]

Eventually, all the new Stellas will be 4Ts. LML is phasing out the 2Ts over time, with 2T production ending in the next year (I think). This isn't out of environmental altruism. The emissions laws around the world are meaning that the 2Ts will be regulated out of existence in Asia, Europe and ultimately the entire US.

[JunkyardDog]

I got my new '09 for $2600 OTD. Now another dealer is advertising them for $2299 OTD. If I had the money, I'd buy another one, just to keep around, since they will not be making them anymore, it would be nice to have a new 2 stroke Stella just sitting there in the living room. BTW, no dealer is going to get anywhere near MSRP out of a 2T, unless the customer has no clue what the actual prices are. Jerry.


Check this out http://www.azmotocity.com/ This is going on right now, today 11/11/2010

[BuddyRaton]

JD $2600 is still a sweet deal! Enjoy!

[sparko123]

any thoughts on a speed/quickness comparison and fun factor on the Stella 2 t versus the Kymco super 8 150? Either will fit the bill but I haven't ridden either. I have an Agility 125 but don't want to ride it 40 miles round trip to work. Tried it once and it kind of didn't seem the right tires (12") or displacement. Does the stella have the same 2 stroke characteristics that one would expect? thanks.

[illnoise]

Cruising speed would probably be fairly similar, I feel like a 2T accelerates faster, but it could just be because you're more involved in it with the shifting.

they're pretty different bikes, even with the disc brakes and better shocks, the Stella isn't going to handle like a modern bike, it's heavier, has a weird center of gravity, etc. The Kymco's going to be sportier, more agile, etc.

So in short, you need both.

[Halloweenie]

2T makes a fun tuner, and you can get A LOT more out of the engine with just a few mods.

[sparko123]

Let me ask this question: why would anyone buy a 4t after the bike it was designed for had a 2 t installed originally? Isn't the performance guaranteed to be a letdown? My kymco super 9 2t has a serious kick to it at a certain powerband and has about 75-8o percent of the power of my Agility 125 4t, and I haven't even de-restricted it completely. So theoretically the 150 Stella 4t will be pretty lame compared to the 150 2t Stella. Any thoughts? Here in Indiana USA the chances are slim to none that the 2 stroke will be phased out anytime soon. Hence the leanings toward a 2 stroke if the price is better anyway.

[PeterC]

Right now, the 2T Stella is a bargain. Next year (or whenever the 4T Stella is finally available) you may not be able to find a new 2T for sale. I say, buy the 2T now and enjoy it. The 4T will be there when and if you want one.

[illnoise]

Here in Indiana USA the chances are slim to none that the 2 stroke will be phased out anytime soon. Hence the leanings toward a 2 stroke if the price is better anyway.

The 2-stroke Stella, specifically, has been discontinued, so what dealers have now is all there is.

Yes, on paper, a 2stroke is more powerful, but a 4-stroke operating with higher compression and a more efficient design can be equally powerful. There have been lots of improvements to engine design since 1946 when the Vespa engine was developed, ha. I didn't notice a difference in performance between the two, though the sound of the 4T is a bit of a letdown if you're used to the 2T roar.

[Dooglas]

Around here, low mileage 2T Stella's are going for rock bottom prices right now. If anyone is dying to have a shifty in the garage as a second scoot, the time seems to be now - new or used.

[sparko123]

So the 2t is comparable to the 4t is what I am hearing. Is the 2t going to last me 3o,ooo miles if maintained well? Not asking for much more and believe me I am easy on a scooter, not a racer at all. The roads around here cannot be trusted. My eyes are not good enough for that. I just wanted something that I can ride on the streets that can easily go 45 without stressing it. Hence the 150cc range that I have decided is right for me. I guess I was hoping for a more powerful ride with the 2t stella. I don't mind the idea of shifting, at least for efficiency sake. This is a pre-mix set-up on the 2t , right? I am in the process of disabling my 5occ 2t oil mix pump right now to make sure nothing is left to chance. It keeps me a little closer to the maintenance part of the bike. Hate the idea of going to the dealer, who doesn't seem to be all that happy to see me anyway. Thanks, people, I appreciate your feedback on my meanderings.

[lmyers]

So the 2t is comparable to the 4t is what I am hearing. Is the 2t going to last me 3o,ooo miles if maintained well? Not asking for much more and believe me I am easy on a scooter, not a racer at all. The roads around here cannot be trusted. My eyes are not good enough for that. I just wanted something that I can ride on the streets that can easily go 45 without stressing it. Hence the 150cc range that I have decided is right for me. I guess I was hoping for a more powerful ride with the 2t stella. I don't mind the idea of shifting, at least for efficiency sake. This is a pre-mix set-up on the 2t , right? I am in the process of disabling my 5occ 2t oil mix pump right now to make sure nothing is left to chance. It keeps me a little closer to the maintenance part of the bike. Hate the idea of going to the dealer, who doesn't seem to be all that happy to see me anyway. Thanks, people, I appreciate your feedback on my meanderings.

I'm over 32k on my 02 Stella. Stock motor, original crank, piston and rings.

[Dooglas]

Here in Indiana USA the chances are slim to none that the 2 stroke will be phased out anytime soon. Hence the leanings toward a 2 stroke if the price is better anyway.

I'd say the odds are pretty good that the 2T Stella will be phased out sooner rather than later. It is not just the US where the 2Ts are getting harder to certify, this is also true in Europe and Asia. Likely that LML will stop making 2Ts and Genuine will stop importing them. If you have no special interest in a 2T, then a 4T will certainly serve you fine in the future. Your posts don't seem to show any special interest in a shifter either. If not, there is no reason to restrict your choices to the Stella. There are many fine 150 cc scooters out there including the Buddy. A number of them will run rings around the Stella.

[illnoise]

Is the 2t going to last me 3o,ooo miles if maintained well?

On paper, the 2T engine is an inefficient but simple, bulletproof design that's been around for 60 years with plenty of spare parts available (if --god forbid-- LML, Genuine, and even PIAGGIO tank tomorrow, you will be able to buy parts for a hundred years).

On paper, the 4T engine is more efficient (power-wise AND environmentally) and reliable. But it's new and somewhat unproven, if LML tanks or discontinues it (unlikely but possible), Genuine would surely do their best to stock up on parts, but ask a 4-stroke Bajaj Chetak owner how easy it is to get parts now.

Off paper, the quality is generally good, but the 2-stroke has had some issues over the years, and the 4-stroke may too, so that's a wash. Id' argue that even if your 2T engine exploded into a million bits, you could always find another Stella 2T engine or Vespa engine to jam in there. I think the new engine is mounted somewhat differently, so it may not be so easy to replace a 4T engine, and they'd be harder to come by in the distant future unless this design remains available/popular for years.

I've said many times, unless you live somewhere the 2T isn't available, or you're super-environmentally-conscious (and the environmental impact of a 2T scooter is somewhat negligible anyway), there's absolutely no reason to wait for a 4T.

[Halloweenie]

Plus any idiot with the Scooter Techniques DVD and a few tools can rebuild the 2t engine.

[sparko123]

"Plus any idiot with the Scooter Techniques DVD and a few tools can rebuild the 2t engine."

Sad but true, I am the 'any idiot'. Found the dvd's online and will order them when the right bike is found. Does the dvd cover 2 stroke engines? the internet site doesn't really specify but assume it does.


"On paper, the 2T engine is an inefficient but simple, bulletproof design that's been around for 60 years with plenty of spare parts available (if --god forbid-- LML, Genuine, and even PIAGGIO tank tomorrow, you will be able to buy parts for a hundred years)."

So what is the connection between LML, Genuine and Piaggio? Shared parts maybe?

"I've said many times, unless you live somewhere the 2T isn't available, or you're super-environmentally-conscious (and the environmental impact of a 2T scooter is somewhat negligible anyway), there's absolutely no reason to wait for a 4T."

The idea that a 2 stroke scooter engine is un-environmental is laughable when compared to the pollution of a 2 ton Scion or worse Ford expedition. the environmental costs of our car industry are far more than some silly carbon emission based standard. No, not an environmentalist, just an efficiency nut and the 2 stroke engine is about as simple as it gets. thanks guys, this is my favorite reason to keep the stella in the running:
"2T makes a fun tuner, and you can get A LOT more out of the engine with just a few mods."

Does the stella come with a decent exhaust? does the bike have an oil-gas mixing system or just pre-mix yourself? just curious. thanks people.

[jmkjr72]

Sad but true, I am the 'any idiot'. Found the dvd's online and will order them when the right bike is found. Does the dvd cover 2 stroke engines? the internet site doesn't really specify but assume it does.

So what is the connection between LML, Genuine and Piaggio? Shared parts maybe?

Does the stella come with a decent exhaust? does the bike have an oil-gas mixing system or just pre-mix yourself? just curious. thanks people.

yes the one that is being talked about is just for 2 strokes infact is just for this engine

so whats the conection lml made scoots for piaggio then piaggio pulled the plug then genuine had lml make the same scoot(with some updates) for them using the piaggio forms and dies

this is why if it says fits p series it should fit a stella

no the stock smoged pipe is very restritve just like any other scooter on the market
and yes the stella is oil injected

[PeterC]

"On paper, the 2T engine is an inefficient but simple, bulletproof design that's been around for 60 years with plenty of spare parts available (if --god forbid-- LML, Genuine, and even PIAGGIO tank tomorrow, you will be able to buy parts for a hundred years)."

"So what is the connection between LML, Genuine and Piaggio? Shared parts maybe?"

Genuine is the U.S. company that sells Stella scooters made by LML in India. LML formerly built Vespa scooters under license from Piaggio. When Piaggio stopped making the P-series, LML kept producing them independently. The majority of Stella parts are interchangeable with Piaggio's Vespa parts.

"Does the stella come with a decent exhaust? does the bike have an oil-gas mixing system or just pre-mix yourself?"

Stella has a perfectly adequate exhaust, but there is a definite performance improvement if you or your dealer fit an inexpensive Sito+ exhaust plus the proper jetting. The Stella has a virtually bulletproof oil-gas mixing system. For a conservative rider, the Stella can be a dependable, long-lasting scooter. If you can change a spark plug or replace a tire, you have the basic mechanical skills required to maintain a Stella. I've had my Stella since 2006, have made no performance modifications other than the Sito+, and I've never had a bit of trouble with it.

[Halloweenie]

I've had my Stella since 2006, have made no performance modifications other than the Sito+, and I've never had a bit of trouble with it.

For the most part, anyone who has had serious issues with a Stella has had them due to their own modifications. If I had left mine stock I am certain I would have avoided many headaches with my bike. But then again, that is the fun thing about them, they are for tinkerers.

[Dooglas]

For the most part, anyone who has had serious issues with a Stella has had them due to their own modifications. If I had left mine stock I am certain I would have avoided many headaches with my bike. But then again, that is the fun thing about them, they are for tinkerers.

Exactly, most people who buy classic 2Ts - including the "like a classic" Stella - like to tinker with them (one might even say - need to tinker with them). That will go as well or poorly as a person's own skills and attention span. For those that don't like to tinker and just want push button reliability - our friends at Genuine (PGO), Piaggio/Vespa, Yamaha, Sym, Kymco and other quality importers and manufacturers are doing their best.

[sparko123]

thanks to all who were involved in this discussion and I hope I didn't hijack someone else's post. I think that where I live gives me enough time to ride a 2 stroke so I will start looking for a Stella to test. Unfortunately the dealer here will not allow test rides which probably will force me to craigslist for the scoot. Oh well, I wanted to buy new but he is afraid of liability issues. His decision. Would like to support the local dealer but he is difficult. I will see you all down the road. thanks.

[birdmove]

Two strokes are pretty easy to work on.No cams,valves,cam chains and tensioners. Two stroke lubes are probably a lot better now than back when I owned two stroke motorcycles. The pistons/cylinders/exhaust ports would have to be cleaned of carbon deposits periodically. But removeing a trwo stroke cylinder head and cylinder is way easier on a two stroke than on a four.Exhaust pipes would sometimes get plugged with carbon and the bike would run like crap.I've never split the cases on a two stroke, but that is also much easier than on a four.

jon

[birdmove]

Oh, and maybe I should mention that Valley Scooters in Kent, Wa. is selling their new Stellas at $2599. Maybe a guy could get them without the BS fees (freight and setup).

jon

[Midnight Drifter]

One thing's for sure, you can't make a four stroke sound like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EePyApsIhcE