Scooter Land Speed trials

[Bcon]

The results for the 2010 Scooter Land Speed trials have been posted:

http://www.motorscooterlandspeedfederat ... sults.html

Looks like the Buddy was well represented!

[JSharpPhoto]

must have been a low turnout. doesn't seem like there was much competition in any particular category. And by the looks of it, most of the modern scooters appeared to be stock.

[Bcon]

I don't know what the turnout was like, but there were a lot more scooters entered than are listed in the results. I'd like to see the entire list, not just those who placed.

Apparently the course was slightly uphill, which dropped the speeds to lower levels than expected. Hopefully they'll find a more level course for next year.

The Kymco Super 8 entered by Speed City Scooters in the 150cc class was no where near stock, and it didn't place (I haven't stopped by the shop yet to ask how it went, hopefully it wasn't a mechanical problem or something). It was stock displacement, but nothing else. They put a lot of effort into it.

[rajron]

I read in another forum where the track was short, started uphill, then ended downhill and most of the guys were running out of steam by the end of the course where there was only a short shutdown area, all times posted were slower than expected but everyone had a great time even though the weather was not very kind to them. and the many scooters that turned out were very well prepared with competent mechanics constantly tinkering to get the most of their machines – this looks like the beginning of a great new scooter scene.

[gr8dog]

Was this event a course with twists and turns and an average speed calculated for the overall run? Or was it a straight line with top speed only being registered?

If these are course average speeds they seem pretty good. If they are top speed runs they seem low. Does anybody know. Is there a map of the course if it was a course?

[illnoise]

Funny that those guys sent me a press release twice a week since like February, but I didn't get an email about the winners.

Bb.

[Skootz Kabootz]

Looking at the 150cc winners... I've beat all those speeds on my bone stock Buddy... hmmmm... I suppose to be fair, I was on level ground and it was dry...

[agent top end]

The 1st and 2nd place 150cc scooters were classic Vespa 2-stroke scoots and from what I heard they were highly tuned. The 3rd place was a Black Jack Buddy with some go fast stuff from Genuine, it posted 62 mph.
Speed City's entry was build for the original lake bed course which was about 2-3 longer than this course. We posted a 61mph. The track, altitude, and very crappy weather kept all the speeds low.
Hopeful next year we can run on the lake bed. We are also investigating a few possible options here in the Midwest. I think the ideal course would be 7,000 -10,000 feet long and flat.

Ciao,
Tim

[Kaos]

Looking at the 150cc winners... I've beat all those speeds on my bone stock Buddy... hmmmm... I suppose to be fair, I was on level ground and it was dry...

The course had a last minute change of venue that was unfortunately 1/2 mile instead of a mile, and mostly up-hill. ALL of the winning bikes were faster than that on a flat.

[JHScoot]

Looking at the 150cc winners... I've beat all those speeds on my bone stock Buddy... hmmmm...

maybe they should'a just called called it "Scooters: How Fast Can Yours Go?

The course had a last minute change of venue that was unfortunately 1/2 mile instead of a mile, and mostly up-hill. ALL of the winning bikes were faster than that on a flat.

i hope so. i mean 90mph for a 500cc when manufacturers claim 80mph for a 250?

[Quo Vadimus]

At just a half mile, might as well have gone the other direction. If it were a 5-mile downhill I'd say the times would deserve an asterisk, but if you're not actually going to get to top speed anyway...

[Skootz Kabootz]

Looking at the 150cc winners... I've beat all those speeds on my bone stock Buddy... hmmmm... I suppose to be fair, I was on level ground and it was dry...

The course had a last minute change of venue that was unfortunately 1/2 mile instead of a mile, and mostly up-hill. ALL of the winning bikes were faster than that on a flat.

Well I should hope so! It would have been good to ride out there to watch but the weather didn't cooperate and we had to nix the ride. I heard there was some uphill and some downhill on the course. Not an ideal location to be sure. And short. All the same, I've been GPS'd at 76 mph on my stock Buddy150. But I had ample room to get up to speed. Heck, you've done what is it, 85mph on your 125 Kaos? Or is it a 161 now?

[Bcon]

I know my Buddy can't match the speeds of the machines that were out there. On a long flat I can hit 70mph indicated, which is barely over 60 acccording to the calibration of our friendly neighborhood radar sign. Stock I could hit 60 indicated. Sight downhills or a tail wind are a very different story.

It sounds like there are a lot of fast scoots around, time to get those entries in for next year!

[Kaos]

Looking at the 150cc winners... I've beat all those speeds on my bone stock Buddy... hmmmm... I suppose to be fair, I was on level ground and it was dry...

The course had a last minute change of venue that was unfortunately 1/2 mile instead of a mile, and mostly up-hill. ALL of the winning bikes were faster than that on a flat.

Well I should hope so! It would have been good to ride out there to watch but the weather didn't cooperate and we had to nix the ride. I heard there was some uphill and some downhill on the course. Not an ideal location to be sure. And short. All the same, I've been GPS'd at 76 mph on my stock Buddy150. But I had ample room to get up to speed. Heck, you've done what is it, 85mph on your 125 Kaos? Or is it a 161 now?

Well, its a 250 now.... I had 88 on it when it was a 161, but that took a lot of modification to hit. I could do about 75 on it even fairly stock though. It just took a long run to get up to those speeds.

[joeybee]

Hi guys. This is Joe from the California Scooter Company. We were at the event and it was great, and you are right, the Buddy was well represented.

I think the Buddy is a great looking scoot and they performed well. I'm tempted to buy the two-tone green one myself.

The conditions and the course were challenging, which is why I think the speeds were down a bit, but considering what the organizing body (MSILSF) had to go through, I can tell you they did a marvelous job. I have a lot of photos on the www.CaliforniaScooterCo.com/blog from this event, and I'll include three here as well.

There were a lot of impressive bikes and riders; the Buddy scooters stuck out as did the guy who placed first in the conventional 150cc scooter class (that was Kirk, who was on his 1966 highly-modified Vespa...his bike represented the true spirit of hot rodding to me).

One of the Buddy scooters I caught a shot of...


Kirk's 1966 Vespa...


Our entry for the 150cc Hybrid class...


It was a great event. I hope we can see some of you as participants in it next year.

[Kaos]

Hi guys. This is Joe from the California Scooter Company. We were at the event and it was great, and you are right, the Buddy was well represented.

I think the Buddy is a great looking scoot and they performed well. I'm tempted to buy the two-tone green one myself.

The conditions and the course were challenging, which is why I think the speeds were down a bit, but considering what the organizing body (MSILSF) had to go through, I can tell you they did a marvelous job. I have a lot of photos on the www.CaliforniaScooterCo.com/blog from this event, and I'll include three here as well.

There were a lot of impressive bikes and riders; the Buddy scooters stuck out as did the guy who placed first in the conventional 150cc scooter class (that was Kirk, who was on his 1966 highly-modified Vespa...his bike represented the true spirit of hot rodding to me).

One of the Buddy scooters I caught a shot of...


Kirk's 1966 Vespa...


Our entry for the 150cc Hybrid class...


It was a great event. I hope we can see some of you as participants in it next year.

Ok, maybe you can tell me. What was the "Hybrid" class?

[bkrdoug]

I personally have run my PIAGGIO BV 250ie---STOCK!!!---quasar engine---GPS 89mph------these things must have been BS!!!! the kingfish

[ericalm]

There were a few reasons for the low turnout. A big one is that the morning of the event, it was 35° and raining hard, zero visibility. There was snow in the higher elevations, just a couple miles away. So a lot of the locals planning on riding opted not to. I didn't attend (as a spectator) due to he weather. Competitors were supposed to meet at the site before 7:30, when the weather was at its worst.

Then, in wonderful CA fashion, by early afternoon the clouds parted, the pavement dried up, and later in the day the weather was clear, dry and beautiful.

Ok, maybe you can tell me. What was the "Hybrid" class?

The hybrid class is described in their rules section of the Riders handbook.

(B) Non-Step-Through “Hybrid” Scooters
Non-Step-Through “Hybrid”scooters are defined as two-wheel motorized vehicles that resemble miniature motorcycles. They may be fitted with solid, mag- type, or spoked aluminum or steel motor-scooter type wheels not exceeding 14".These “Hybrids” have a frame-mounted engine featuring a manual transmission with a foot-operated gear shift and clutch lever mounted on the left handlebar. Engine displacement is limited to 500cc. Non-Step-Through “Hybrid” Scooters shall compete in established displacement classes, but with an “H/1” designation for Non-Step-Through “Hybrid”, and shall compete separately from traditional step-through motor-scooters. Examples of Non-Step-Through “Hybrid” Scooters include Cushman Hawk/Eagle, Mustang, California Scooter Company Mustang replicas, Yamaha YSR50, and most any motorized cycle with wheels measuring 14” or less.

(Weird: These guidelines were altered for clarification after the event took place. An earlier version of the guide I have doesn't specify the CSC or other models.)

Few of us are likely to consider these types of bikes scooters, even by the broadest of definitions. There has never been a universally accepted definition for what qualifies as a "scooter." There have always been models which defy definition. I can't speak for the MSILSF, but I think a large reason for inclusion of these bikes is that they don't qualify for competition in the motorcycle land speed events due to their smaller tires.

As I posted on MV:
Deciding what to allow and what not to is a slippery slope on either side and sure to cause controversy. The Peirspeed Madass 125 fits the criteria of "hybrid 150" except it has 16" wheels. But the organization created an exception for the SYM HD200, which also has 16" wheels. The hybrid category also specifies a handlebar clutch, which would rule out otherwise eligible bikes like the SuperCub and Symba (clutchless foot shifter). And so on.

[jrsjr]

I personally have run my PIAGGIO BV 250ie---STOCK!!!---quasar engine---GPS 89mph------

Just an FYI - as I understand the rules of the sanctioning body that controls the Bonneville speed trials, your scooter actually qualifies to run as a motorcycle at Bonneville. Most scooters don't qualify because the official sanctioning body requires 16" wheels (or larger), but the BV is fitted with 16" wheels, isn't it? If so, that removes the biggest impediment to your scooter running on the salt.

There would still be a couple small requirements like safety wiring your oil drain plug, oil filter and your stands (sidestand and centerstand). Safety wiring is no big deal. Motorcycle riders do it all the time in order to race their bikes in club races and such. You drill a couple holes and use a $15 tool to do the job. You'd have to wear an approved full-face helmet, boots, gloves and a one-piece leather suit, but other than that, I can't think of any reason why you couldn't run your BV on the salt.

Bonneville is an amazing place with a long, storied history. You'd meet some really interesting characters. Just running on the salt would be a huge deal. Plus, when it was over, you'd have actual documentation how fast a stock QUASAR-powered scooter can go, which would settle arguments (not to mention wagers) worldwide.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Bonneville folks don't use GPS or RADAR. They use speed traps which are triggered by the passage of your vehicle. A computer then calculates the speed. It's all done right by folks who know what they're doing so that there is no doubt about the result. Also, you will be required to make a two-way run and they calculate the average speed to eliminate the effect of headwinds and tailwinds (they cancel each other out when the average is computed).

[jijifer]

Waid said his GPS on the GTS clocked at 81 but the radar gun only clocked 73.

So I take this to mean that neither can be called truly accurate. But in the event, everyone was rated by same gun so at least it's fair in that regard.

[joeybee]

By our quick check, that radar gun was very accurate. Our rider (Syl) had a GPS in his pocket on one of the runs. The GPS recorded 74.5 mph, and the radar gun recorded 74 mph. That's close enough for us. Not sure why you saw such a huge difference.

Quite a few people have commented that their bikes would have run a lot faster than the bikes did on Speed Sunday in the Cajon Pass. That could be (we don't know, though, because they weren't there). One thing that could be going on is that stock speedometers are typically quite a bit faster than actual speed. As a manufacturer, we've found that most countries will allow a speedometer to be faster than actual, but not slower. As a result, most manufacturers err on the speedy side. My Triumphs have always been about 12-15% over actual speed, for example.

The other factors, of course, are the rain, the cold, the elevation, the uphill beginning of the course, and the fact that we had only 1/2 mile to get up to speed. I'm pretty sure our bike would go faster than we did during the event if we had a lot more distance, but we didn't and the point is moot.

My hope is that we see everyone again next year, along with a whole bunch of new entrants. I think the MSILSF did a stellar job, and we are glad we participated.



One of the things that inspired our entry is the Walt Fulton Mustang record back in the '50s, when he ran 103 mph on a 320cc Mustang. There's a pretty active discussion over on the Mustang Motorcycle Club forum about this...they've seen our results, and they've located the original Fulton Mustang. They are discussing resurrecting the Fulton bike for another go at an even higher record. I hope this happens.

Walt Fulton at speed in the 1950s....

[ericalm]

The other factors, of course, are the rain, the cold, the elevation, the uphill beginning of the course, and the fact that we had only 1/2 mile to get up to speed. I'm pretty sure our bike would go faster than we did during the event if we had a lot more distance, but we didn't and the point is moot.

Aside from the incline, the distance is probably the biggest factor for slower-than-expected speeds for the CVT scooters. Whether by gearing or variator mods, the automatic scooters tuned for high top speeds generally sacrifice acceleration to do so. Sure, there are autos that will peel off the line and reach nice high speeds (especially something like a kitted & tuned 2T 50) but to eke out the maximum high speeds for the machine, they're going to shear off some of that low-end acceleration.

If I'd entered the race, I'd have been running heavy rollers. Starting on an incline and having only a half mile would have killed my top speeds with this setup. I could have tried three different weight combinations and not hit the sweet spot for this track.