My bad - Blur 220 and octane

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:58 pm

I've said it here and elsewhere, but I'm being convinced otherwise by my Blur. I think that the Blur 220 requires our mid-grade fuel (or better).

As I've noted, my Blur's idle is "agricultural". It has wandered from around 900 to about 2200 from time to time since I bought it (mainly in the 1200 to 1900 range). I've had a few stalls and EFL (check engine) lights. I always chocked it up to aggressive fuel mapping and I lived with it because the Blur is an incredible scooter.

I have access to the PGO diagnostic "dongle" at my dealership and the scoot always passes the systems check with flying colors. The other day, on a whim, I filled half the tank with Mobil mid-grade (89) gas instead of my usual 87. As soon as I got back to the house (2 miles), I was amazed to discover that my wandering idle seemed to be gone, that the engine was running quieter and that it seemed to give me a bit better power. Coincidence? So I did the only thing that seemed reasonable, I thrashed it down the highway and through the neighborhoods of Detroit on my commute the next day. Results were the same - a great idle, smooth power and greatly reduced vibrations at stoplights.

Yesterday, I filled up with Mobil premium (92) and the story is the same. I have a very steady idle of 1500-1600 RPM, the engine is almost too quiet and the power, while not a big difference, seems to be more linear. I can't quite understand why this is happening (with all my talk about the Anti-Knock Index - how we rate octane in the country as opposed to the rest of the world, blah, blah), but I like it.

Can someone else try to replicate my results? If your Blur has exhibited some or all of my symptoms above, please try putting mid-grade (89) fuel in at your next fill-up. Pay particular attention to your idle speed and the loping, or lumpy idle you may have before you try the mid-grade stuff. Note your idle speed too. It's very interesting, and we may be onto something here that makes an already outstanding scooter even better (for pennies per gallon!) I've also volunteered to re-write the (horrible, embarrassing) Blur user manual and this information would be very helpful for future Blur owners.

Thanks - and I'm sorry

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 am

Well, no input on a blur, but I have experienced this EXACT thing with a trials bike a friend had...Higher octane and ALL the running issues disappeared ...

bcgreaf · Post by **bcgreaf** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:02 pm

I'll try it on my next fill up

blurblaine · Post by **blurblaine** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:00 pm

very interesting ...

i once had a car that required 'premium' and got stuck needing fuel in a small country town with nothing but regular. my mighty 1985 dodge shelby charger hated that fuel and stalled a number of times + ran rough until i was able to 'mix in' some higher octane.

i've used all grades in my blur 150 with no difference.

octane nazis have stated there was no performance difference between fuel grades, but in cases of higher performance engines i'm convinced it can and does matter .. especially to 'the computer' running the show.

i'm really curious to hear what others say after more 'try' this test.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:32 pm

My stock '06 Blur doesn't care what grade fuel I but in it, but it'll probably want premium after the engine rebuild because of the increased compression ratio. The 220i probably wants the high grade fuel because of the factory fuel mapping in the ECU. One would have thought the engineers at PGO would have included mapping for lower octane fuel to accommodate countries that require it.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:12 am

octane nazis have stated there was no performance difference between fuel grades, but in cases of higher performance engines i'm convinced it can and does matter .. especially to 'the computer' running the show.

The argument isn't that there's no difference, the argument is that higher-octane gas isn't "better," it's just different, and using it in a engine that doesn't require it is a waste of money and/or possibly bad for the engine.

Here's my take on it:
http://2strokebuzz.com/2010/11/12/24-dr-octane

(note that the comments veer off into ethanol, which is another debate with even fewer clear answers, and there are a few people who just ignore what I say completely and argue "but this one goes to 11."

In short, asian countries use a different rating system and their "92" corresponds to our "87" I don't want to insist that this applies to every scooter, but manuals are often translated sloppily and most dealers and mechanics I trust tell me that premium gas is not required for most scooters, though there are exceptions, I think Vespa actually does recommend 91.

But people believe what they want to believe, and even if Genuine weighs in (which I believe they have, in favor of 87, but I may be wrong) there will be folks who insist that 92 gives them special powers of speed and invisibility. Maybe with the new Blur, 92 truly is recommended, but I wouldn't believe it unless it came directly from Genuine's tech dept that you should be using 92 AKI.

If the engine is designed for high-octane gas, then yes, you should absolutely use it. 92 isn't snake oil, it's just a different application. You wouldn't put 90-weight oil in an engine that calls for 50 (it's a higher number, it must be better, right!?).

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:12 am

I'm sure what you're saying about octane is true most of the time, but it's hard to argue the positive results Rippinyarn has been seeing with his 220i Blur. This whole FI thing for scooters is fairly new to most of us so I find it conceivable that PGO's fuel mapping favors a higher octane fuel.

Does anyone know what the compression ratio for the 220i is?

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:44 pm

Sure, it's possible, and maybe even likely, but I never trust anecdotal evidence regarding performance, there are just way too many variables to draw a reasonable conclusion that way. If I suspected the manual was wrong (and, sadly, often there's good reason to suspect the manual is wrong) I'd ask the dealer to confirm w/Genuine directly, then follow Genuine's advice.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:31 pm

I don't know how much more reliable I am than the average Joe, but I'm a blogger/reporter on scooting (Detroitscooter) and have been to school and completed a thesis and doctoral dissertation... I'm also old as hell

and that's got to count for something! My point is that I've reported the Rest of World (ROW) octane rating practices before and urged people to not over-octane on the basis that it's somehow "better", and now I'm finding direct evidence contrary to my prior exhortations. It's humbling, but I rode my Blur again yesterday and there is most definitely a difference in the way that the engine is running. I cannot directly attribute the engine smoothness change to the 89 octane that demonstrated the biggest change in MY sample of one.

I'd love to find out the real answer, but that will require a controlled experiment that we are unlikely to be able to replicate in the real world. I'd just like to see if it happens for anyone else. Again, just throw some 89 in the tank after noting the idle speed and quality and relative behavior of the engine. Even "premium" didn't provide the bang for the buck that the 89 did in my one machine, I'm just curious if it works for anyone else

The part about me re-writing the Blur manual is true, and it might go alongside the embarrassing factory manual as sort of a real-world guide if Philip wants to publish it that way, or may even just be a download somewhere if he doesn't. This is the perfect information to go along side some corrected information from the manual.

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:08 pm

Sure, Yarn, I know you're a pragmatic and experienced guy and you were just asking for other people's experience, and again, you may be right. I'm not angry or anything, I'm just saying I don't trust anecdotal evidence (even my own, I've fooled myself into believing lots of stuff, ha).

I was mostly just sparked to comment by (was it Blaine's) seeming misunderstanding of what "Octane Nazis" (a fair enough term, I count myself among them and Yarn apparently does, too, or did) believe.

I don't like bugging Genuine peeps via email because I don't think they like making decrees about stuff like this "on the record," but when I see them in person, they're usually happy to answer questions like this, I'll see what I can find out.

Out of curiosity, what is the spec quoted in the owners manual? Is there a Asian-market manual on the web somewhere, it'd be interesting to compare (and the octane number would be legible to those of us that don't read Mandarin, ha.

Bb.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:57 pm

The only fuel spec found in my manual (one of the first delivered, but identical to all of them from the first shipment) is "unleaded gas" (p. 28 ). Also conveniently shown as "UNLEADED" (p. 48 ) in case you missed it the first time

So just use the right unleaded and there you go!

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:53 am

Seems to me all Rippinyarn has to do is refill with 87 octane on the next fill-up and suffer through all the problems again if they return. He can then refill with premium to verify that the problems go away. This way, we all don't have to suffer through all his pain and anguish.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:54 pm

Which I sure will, but I'm aiming to do the most improvement with the least octane, so I'm shooting for 89 vs. 87 to see a difference. Sadly, it's apparently monsoon season here in Detroit, so riding has been limited this week.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:40 pm

In the shop manual I could have sworn I saw that the motor needed 95 octane. And i'm sure they are meaning as rated by the Asian countries. So if 92 octane in Asia is equal to our 87 octane here in the US then the 95 in Asia should be about equivalent to our 89 octane in the US?

Edit: Looking back at the manual it does say 92 octane and not 95, so I guess I was just imagining things..

My personal experience is that I have not noticed any difference in anything from 87 to 93 octane. I agree that using the lowest octane that keeps the motor in check is the best as it delivers the most power and fuel economy.

Sure wish we have some idea what octane it wants...

Do these scooters have knock sensors?

SevenhertZ · Post by **SevenhertZ** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:31 pm

I have only used 92 on my 220 and had no problems yet. I mean what is a couple cents more and you get the cleanest burning fuel. I much rather jsut use the highest octane for the coolest scooter on the block. Maybe that's just me being mister money bags (even though I'm not)

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:56 am

SevenhertZ wrote:I have only used 92 on my 220 and had no problems yet. I mean what is a couple cents more and you get the cleanest burning fuel. I much rather jsut use the highest octane for the coolest scooter on the block. Maybe that's just me being mister money bags (even though I'm not) :P

This is the reasoning that drives me nuts. If it works, it works, fine, maybe it's the right gas, maybe it just happens to work, whatever, but the idea that more expensive gas is somehow BETTER or 'cleaner burning' or somehow pampering your scooter is simply not true. By that reasoning, if you wear size 34 pants, you should go to the big and tall men's store and buy size 48 pants, because the number is bigger and they cost more, so they must be better, right?

SevenhertZ · Post by **SevenhertZ** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:53 am

Look all I'm saying is this is a high performance scooter. This has nothing to do with your analogy, which is really bad, might I add. It is sad to see that these are the things that keep you up at night. Only thing that keeps me up at night is the wind on my face and the throttle in my hand.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:51 am

SevenhertZ wrote:Look all I'm saying is this is a high performance scooter. This has nothing to do with your analogy, which is really bad, might I add. It is sad to see that these are the things that keep you up at night. Only thing that keeps me up at night is the wind on my face and the throttle in my hand.

His analogy might have been bad, but the truth is that is any given motor that was designed around 87 octane will perform worse with 92 octane gas. It won't hurt anything except performance. So being that this is a high performance scooter, the folks here want to know what the motor is design around so they can use the best gas in it for maximum performance.

The higher the octane rating, the slower the gas burns, which equals worse performance unless the motor was design for high octane gas. High octane gas is not cleaner or refined better...

Best case scenario is to use the lowest octane gas possible that keeps the motor from detonating/knocking, that is the sweet spot for performance...

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:48 pm

SevenhertZ wrote:I have only used 92 on my 220 and had no problems yet. I mean what is a couple cents more and you get the octane rating that works best in the engine. I much rather just use the anti-knock rated octane that works in the coolest scooter on the block. Maybe that's just me being mister money bags (even though I'm not)

Fixed that for ya.

The complaint I'm seeing isn't that you're using a higher octane: it's that you're claiming it to be cleaner burning or "the best fuel". What's being said is higher octane doesn't mean better IN GENERAL. The rating has a specific meaning, so match the octane rating with what the engine was designed for. A bad match is a bad match, either direction: lower octane with a high-compression engine or high octane with a lower-compression.

Basically, it's not what's being done, it's the reason given behind the why.

(Now feel free to correct me if I got this wrong, guys and gals.)

FlyingG · Post by **FlyingG** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:46 pm

omniphil wrote:The higher the octane rating, the slower the gas burns, which equals worse performance unless the motor was design for high octane gas. High octane gas is not cleaner or refined better... Best case scenario is to use the lowest octane gas possible that keeps the motor from detonating/knocking, that is the sweet spot for performance...

I agree with Phil - I remember Bruce at BCM (Ducati race specialists) saying that he would run his bikes on goat piss if they would take it

lardlad · Post by **lardlad** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:29 am

I suspect the same thing. I am really trying to fight off the urge to think it is running better because I spent more money on the gas. But I bought 89 for the first time the other day and I thought it was running better.

I might add to this experiment. Make sure you get your gas from a pump with three hoses. Otherwise you'll have a hose full of whatever the last person bought before you get the gas you bought. Since the blur's tank is pretty small you could end up with something link 88 octane.

anyway I think it does better on 89.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:57 pm

I'm still gathering information... and now I honestly don't know what to think. Philip McCaleb told me in no uncertain terms that the Blur 220i is designed for regular unleaded - the cheapest (87). I also noted that the compression is listed in the service manual at 10.0:1, not what i would call a super high compression engine. All things point to using regular octane, but my engine runs smoother and has a more consistent idle using 89.

I really have to man up and fill it up with the 87, after documenting the idle with video. I'll try that next

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:15 am

here's something to add to the mix, ha.

Bob Weber/Motormouth (in this sunday's chicago tribune) recommended a higher octane gas to a guy (with a car) talking about towing a really heavy load. His reasoning was that the extra burden on the engine required a higher octane fuel. I don't know if I agree with that reasoning, but you'd think Weber'd know what he was talking about.

If it's true that a higher load would benefit from a higher octane gas (and again, i'm very skeptical of that), I know I weigh a good deal more than a 16-year-old Taiwanese kid (though not as much as a Vietnamese family of five) so maybe with the top end fighting my fat a**, a different ignition characteristic is beneficial.

That said, still, I've never sensed any deficiency with regular gas, I'm glad to hear McCaleb confirmed my research, and I don't see any reason to even try premium unless someone can show me scientific data proving it's worth a try. ; )

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:25 am

Rippinyarn wrote:my engine runs smoother and has a more consistent idle using 89.

With all due respect, (and I mean that, I know you were on Team Regular until recently and I know you're as skeptical as I am, but you've had some interesting experiences) and also at the risk of sounding condescending because I'm sure you've thought of this, but maybe not…

is it possible your idle jet setting or throttle setting is off? Again, i'm more into old Vespa 2strokes and not even too technically savvy about those, but I've seen people argue that, say, a hotter plug works better in their scooter than the recommended plug, but really, their hotter plug is balancing out some other deficiency in jetting or they're covering up a huge airleak with insane jet sizes and such, arguing that it makes their bike run 'better.' Sure, it might, but it would run even better if the real problem was diagnosed.

Again, i'm not trying to start a fight here, and it's nothing personal, I'm just really suspicious of your findings, as I suspect you might be, a little, too, ha.

I also assume you've tried different grades from different gas stations, maybe the station you frequent has a contaminated 87 tank underground or something crazy like that? I know, I'm stretching, ha.

Bb

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:32 am

Hey, it's no problem - I'm as perplexed as you are! When I get the scoot back I'm going to run it very low indeed and then fill up with 87. I'll get video before and after of the one thing that seems measurable (and not opinion-based), the tachometer. Of course, this assumes that the new tach is accurate

I fill up from three or four stations, depending on which direction I'm heading when the tank indicator starts flashing. Two Mobils, one Shell and on rare occasions, a Marathon. They are all pretty busy, so I don't think that their fuel is old/contaminated.

I don't believe that there is anything resembling a jet in the Blur 220is fuel system. As a fuel injected engine, it's all pulses and piezo and whatnot. There is certainly nothing that I know if that a user can change to alter the idle, for instance.

Genuine knows about the lumpy idle and the premature heat warning issue and may be coming up with a chip that does what they can to raise the threshold where the light comes on and maybe take a look at the idle, although I'm not sure much can be done there (hence my desire to stabilize the idle with whatever fuel my Blur prefers). If/when the chip appears, I'll post the results here.

I still love the scoot, and the new instrument cluster and tires should help me love it even more!

I don't think that team regular would have me... and I refuse to me a member of a club that would have me as a member

illnoise · Post by **illnoise** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:13 pm

Rippinyarn wrote:Of course, this assumes that the new tach is accurate

Well, even if it's off, it'd be off CONSISTENTLY so it's still a worthwhile yardstick, I'd figure.

Rippinyarn wrote:I don't believe that there is anything resembling a jet in the Blur 220is fuel system. As a fuel injected engine, it's all pulses and piezo and whatnot. There is certainly nothing that I know if that a user can change to alter the idle, for instance.

Yeah, I thought of that an hour later while I was trying to go to sleep, duh. I'm mentally comparing your blur 220i to my 150, too of course. There are two debates here as I see it, the old octane argument, which we seem to agree on, and the question of why your (all?) Blur220s seems to perform better with higher-octane gas.

Goodtimes!

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:38 pm

illnoise wrote: Well, even if it's off, it'd be off CONSISTENTLY so it's still a worthwhile yardstick, I'd figure.

Alas no, the trouble that we are having with the tachs is that they slip and give you nutty readings (5k at idle) and eventually get stuck at some point (11k at key off), so not very consistent

Another data point will be revealed soon depending on many factors. They are installing the (gunmetal) replacement instrument cluster as we speak... on my white Blur.

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:58 pm

My 220i feels best with 89 octane. When I first got the bike I ran it at 92 and it just didn't feel "smoooooth."

I'll try it with 87 on the next fill up - although my hunch is that 89 is like baby bear's porridge.

If the optimum octane is truly 88 - then perhaps when I select 89 --- the gas in the hose is still 87 from the last guy that pumped - therefore my gas is a mix of 87 and 89.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:20 pm

Rippinyarn wrote: Another data point will be revealed soon depending on many factors. They are installing the (gunmetal) replacement instrument cluster as we speak... on my white Blur.

I spoke too quickly - the new tachometer that they installed was already broken (for my convenience

), so further investigation and documentation of this topic on my Blur will be delayed.

docjones · Post by **docjones** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:13 pm

93 octane is better gas. Burns slower, less detonation. I use 93 in both my scoots and don't have any fuel related problems. Personally I consider any motor with 10.1 to 1 compressin ratio a high compression engine. Here in Florida 87 cost X, 89 is an extra .20 cents and 93 is another .20 cents. So for an extra .40 cents per gallon I get six points up in octane and the satisfaction I'm doing the best I can for my scoots. And on top of all that doesn't it make it run cooler, I'm real sure I read recently that it does. I just had to put in my two cents.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:51 pm

My ongoing investigation is that the correct octane for the Blur is indeed 89. Philip McCaleb himself told me that regular unleaded is fine for it, but my scoot (and other Blurs, apparently) idle smoother using 89. That said, using the octane called for in your owner's manual is generally the right way to go.
My Kymco Agility used regular unleaded and loved it, FWIW.

turboscott · Post by **turboscott** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:34 pm

For the record....my 2011 SS220i EMISSIONS CONTROL STICKER READS:

Unleaded Fuel only...."91 Octane or better"

Im noticing many people in this thread that are not knowledable enough on octane performance giving input that could result in damage to another persons scooter.
Even comments about "Phil" says its okay can be dangerous...especially when he wont be covering the warranty for a detonation failure on your bike. All vehicles will most likely idle fine on 87 since its not generating alot of heat at that point. Once you start getting on the throttle you create heat through rapid spark and high compression which can cause premat det...and can destroy your motor. The preventors are typically colder spark plugs and higher octane fuel.

If the ecu is smart "self mapping" on this bike you may be able to change fuels and feel differences if the mapping is not done correctly. Rough or less powerful top end feeling. Hopefully the bike is equipped with knock sensing that will retard timing to protect the bike...safe or limp mode. The best way when changing fuel is to disconnect the battery for 15 minutes or more then reconnecting and driving casually for about 30mins and slowly working your way up to highr speeds. It takes awhile in most cases. Again, this is for self mapping ecu motors. Ecu that do not map and mustttt run on a set fuel do not have or require this. This is the question that should be asked to Phil....or better yet PGO TECHS.

Jumping from 87 to 91 with no learning period can be both a waste of time and dangerous to your motor. 91 will provide better performance HP by preventing retarding or detonation...This is my mortal 2 cents.

Also, on the record....I did not see this sticker before today and have been running 89. No wonder I have not hit 90mph yet. JK of course....but this is a California sticker....not sure if all bikes have it. Located in the underseat compartment.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:57 pm

turboscott wrote:For the record....my 2011 SS220i EMISSIONS CONTROL STICKER READS:

Unleaded Fuel only...."91 Octane or better"

Im noticing many people in this thread that are not knowledable enough on octane performance giving input that could result in damage to another persons scooter.
Even comments about "Phil" says its okay can be dangerous...especially when he wont be covering the warranty for a detonation failure on your bike. All vehicles will most likely idle fine on 87 since its not generating alot of heat at that point. Once you start getting on the throttle you create heat through rapid spark and high compression which can cause premat det...and can destroy your motor. The preventors are typically colder spark plugs and higher octane fuel.

If the ecu is smart "self mapping" on this bike you may be able to change fuels and feel differences if the mapping is not done correctly. Rough or less powerful top end feeling. Hopefully the bike is equipped with knock sensing that will retard timing to protect the bike...safe or limp mode. The best way when changing fuel is to disconnect the battery for 15 minutes or more then reconnecting and driving casually for about 30mins and slowly working your way up to highr speeds. It takes awhile in most cases. Again, this is for self mapping ecu motors. Ecu that do not map and mustttt run on a set fuel do not have or require this. This is the question that should be asked to Phil....or better yet PGO TECHS.

Jumping from 87 to 91 with no learning period can be both a waste of time and dangerous to your motor. 91 will provide better performance HP by preventing retarding or detonation...This is my mortal 2 cents.

Also, on the record....I did not see this sticker before today and have been running 89. No wonder I have not hit 90mph yet. JK of course....but this is a California sticker....not sure if all bikes have it. Located in the underseat compartment.

So what I wonder is if the emission sticker means RON or AKI octane?

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:11 pm

So I went and looked under my seat as well and it specifically says

91 octane (R+M)/2) or higher required.

So that is clearly 91 US octane.

Interesting, I guess I'll start using premium and see if I notice anything different...

Can I assume that US Blurs have different fuel mappings than Taiwan?

I don't understand why there are so many different stories. Why is this information so hard for us to get correctly? Why don't the people that work for Genuine and the folks that sell these things not have a definitive answer? Is there some disconnect from the US to Taiwan?

Happy Thanksgiving! Gobble Gobble!

turboscott · Post by **turboscott** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:33 am

omniphil wrote:So I went and looked under my seat as well and it specifically says

91 octane (R+M)/2) or higher required.

So that is clearly 91 US octane.

Interesting, I guess I'll start using premium and see if I notice anything different...

Can I assume that US Blurs have different fuel mappings than Taiwan?

I don't understand why there are so many different stories. Why is this information so hard for us to get correctly? Why don't the people that work for Genuine and the folks that sell these things not have a definitive answer? Is there some disconnect from the US to Taiwan?

Happy Thanksgiving! Gobble Gobble!

Sorry for the late reply on this, haven't been on much lately. Not sure if you noticed a difference but for the extra 20 cents I spend on the fill-up I am thinking insurance...not necessarily performance. When I started using the 91 I think it runs a bit better at higher speeds....but its really too hard to tell on a 16 hp motor.

My commutes are about 20-35 miles each way on 55mph roads...depending on what apartment I am staying at each day. At that speed...insurance is important.

15uzu · Post by **15uzu** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:59 am

Sorry if it's already been covered by someone else (I skipped to the bottom after about 10 posts.

What Octane rating is used in the US? RON or MON?

Either way, if the scooters are imported with a revised ignition & fuel map in the ECU to suit a lower grade fuel, then putting the higher grade won't make an ounce of difference (or damage it).

If however, and I suspect to be the case, Genuine are importing the PGO's with the Taiwan spec maps then using the lower grade fuel will make a world of difference. You will be getting detonantion problems with the lowere grade fuel & will be most noticable on hot days, when carry extra weight or when going up inclines.

As a comparison the fuel we get here in Australia is RON rated:
92 RON (e10)
95 RON (regular)
98 RON (premium)
we also for a while could get Shell V-Power Racing & BP100 (both 100 RON)

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:40 pm

I looked in the manual of two friends kymcos. YUP, they both specify 92+. Kymco 150 people btw. And yes, I run premium in my scooter. why not? the milage is so good anyway.

turboscott · Post by **turboscott** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:31 am

15uzu wrote:Sorry if it's already been covered by someone else (I skipped to the bottom after about 10 posts.

What Octane rating is used in the US? RON or MON?

Either way, if the scooters are imported with a revised ignition & fuel map in the ECU to suit a lower grade fuel, then putting the higher grade won't make an ounce of difference (or damage it).

If however, and I suspect to be the case, Genuine are importing the PGO's with the Taiwan spec maps then using the lower grade fuel will make a world of difference. You will be getting detonantion problems with the lowere grade fuel & will be most noticable on hot days, when carry extra weight or when going up inclines.

As a comparison the fuel we get here in Australia is RON rated:
92 RON (e10)
95 RON (regular)
98 RON (premium)
we also for a while could get Shell V-Power Racing & BP100 (both 100 RON)

In the US....we have our gas ratings displayed as AKI. (Anti-Knock Rating which is 4 points lower than the RON rating you see) In California we have 87, 89, 91 AKI Octane (91, 93, 95 for RON). In other US States you will see 93/94 Octane especially closer to the Midwest and East Coast States. I believe all States have a very small handful of 100 Octane available. (104 RON)

The problem with PGO and genuine is...its not easy to get a straight answer about the ECU mapping. Heck, even the owner's manual is written in jibberish language. Quite embarrassing if you ask me that they couldn't get a true english speaking translator to help with the manual. I guess Genuine was too concerned with the bikes and not so much the support material.

Swordsman · Post by **Swordsman** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:35 pm

Okay, I may be way off base here, but I don't think so.

The Octane rating, whichever method you use, is a numerical representation of the chemical chain of the molecule. That's the only difference between grades... 92 has a higher octane count than 87.

When you burn this chain, you're basically breaking it down and releasing the energy contained within it. The longer and more complex the chain, the more difficult it is to break down.

Thus, a higher octane fuel actually takes longer to combust than low octane. This is the only difference.

If your engine requires a higher octane rating, it's because the timing and compression are designed around that speed of combustion. Putting a lower octane in it will cause the fuel to explode prematurely, which is known as predetonation, pinging, etc. The detonation is occurring before the piston reaches it's peak, so the engine is fighting itself. There will be power loss, and over time, engine damage.

If your engine is designed around a lower octane fuel, increasing the octane only slows the combustion process. You may notice a power loss, you may not. But it certainly shouldn't run any better.

Higher octane fuel does NOT generate more power. Higher compression and increased ignition timing generate more power, higher octane simply allows you to use them.

So, with all that said, if your bike runs "better" with high octane fuel, you should be experiencing predetonation with low octane, but that generally doesn't happen during idle.

~SM

turboscott · Post by **turboscott** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:20 pm

Swordsman wrote:Okay, I may be way off base here, but I don't think so.

Higher octane fuel does NOT generate more power. Higher compression and increased ignition timing generate more power, higher octane simply allows you to use them.

~SM

Yes, you are halfway on base...LOL. JK

All you said is correct.

However, keeping in mind that detonation IS technically a loss of power and can be dangerous to your motor in any vehicle without preventative ECU retarding one must be careful when saying octane does not increase power. Some engines can retard their timing to compensate for lower octane, which reduces their power output. Said differently, it will increase power in cars that are engineered to be self mapping, as said before. The more consistent the correct octane used the more reliable the motor according to the MFG.

One must be careful and knowledgable to know what their engine can do. If you don't know...always use the recommended fuel. If your manual says use 87 and you put 91 in it...you are wasting your money, not hurting anything, and gaining zero noticeable power. If it says use 91 and you are a cheapo putting 87 in it you are putting your engine at risk and might be losing power too.

Ormond · Post by **Ormond** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:51 pm

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omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:31 pm

I agree. After doing my own research, this scooter needs 91 or higher (US Octane) to run optimally.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Ormond wrote:The U.S. EPA label placed under the seat on my 2013 Blur SS 220i states that the engine meets the U.S. and California emissions standards. My new 2013 Blur SS 220i requires 91 R+M/2 octane rating. In Texas, that's the big 91 on the pump button.

Hmm. From earlier in the thread,

Ripp wrote: Philip McCaleb told me in no uncertain terms that the Blur 220i is designed for regular unleaded - the cheapest (87). I also noted that the compression is listed in the service manual at 10.0:1, not what i would call a super high compression engine. All things point to using regular octane, but my engine runs smoother and has a more consistent idle using 89.

There's a disconnect here.

I've done 11 out of my 22 fillups with 87, and the other 11 with 89. I haven't been able to tell a difference from MPG (oh man, I wish I could: still in the low 50's), or idle, or actual performance. I thought maybe my scooter has less little pops and toots on 89, but I don't want to make any claims I can't support. I did less higher speed runs when I was on 87, so I can't directly compare. (And I do multiple tanks in a row with the same gas, I don't switch every other of course).

Someone want to contact Genuine or Philip and try, again, to get to the bottom of this? There really needs to be a substantive claim or proof.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:12 pm

Edwub wrote:
Ormond wrote:The U.S. EPA label placed under the seat on my 2013 Blur SS 220i states that the engine meets the U.S. and California emissions standards. My new 2013 Blur SS 220i requires 91 R+M/2 octane rating. In Texas, that's the big 91 on the pump button.
Hmm. From earlier in the thread,
Ripp wrote: Philip McCaleb told me in no uncertain terms that the Blur 220i is designed for regular unleaded - the cheapest (87). I also noted that the compression is listed in the service manual at 10.0:1, not what i would call a super high compression engine. All things point to using regular octane, but my engine runs smoother and has a more consistent idle using 89.

There's a disconnect here.

I've done 11 out of my 22 fillups with 87, and the other 11 with 89. I haven't been able to tell a difference from MPG (oh man, I wish I could: still in the low 50's), or idle, or actual performance. I thought maybe my scooter has less little pops and toots on 89, but I don't want to make any claims I can't support. I did less higher speed runs when I was on 87, so I can't directly compare. (And I do multiple tanks in a row with the same gas, I don't switch every other of course).

Someone want to contact Genuine or Philip and try, again, to get to the bottom of this? There really needs to be a substantive claim or proof.

It is clearly marked on the sticker under the seat. I have to think that the sticker is there for a reason...

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:23 pm

Right, hence the disconnect. As McCaleb is founder and prez of Genuine, I assume his words have some weight. I don't know anything about the stickers.

So simplistically, three options:

a) McCaleb IS wrong, sticker is correct. (use 91)

b) McCaleb WAS wrong, then changed position. sticker is correct. (use 91)

c) sticker is wrong.

Which is most likely? I don't know. Contacting Genuine to get some sort of official comment on this (esp in light of these stickers (I haven't even noticed what mine says, will check tonight) would really be nice.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:52 pm

Edwub wrote:Right, hence the disconnect. As McCaleb is founder and prez of Genuine, I assume his words have some weight. I don't know anything about the stickers.

So simplistically, three options:

a) McCaleb IS wrong, sticker is correct. (use 91)

b) McCaleb WAS wrong, then changed position. sticker is correct. (use 91)

c) sticker is wrong.

Which is most likely? I don't know. Contacting Genuine to get some sort of official comment on this (esp in light of these stickers (I haven't even noticed what mine says, will check tonight) would really be nice.

I've met McCaleb, he is a great guy, but he doesn't design the engines. Neither does Genuine, they just import Taiwanese scooters. So I would imagine there is a huge disconnect between Taiwan and the USA. Again, not saying anything bad about McCaleb at all. Does PGO in Taiwan even make their own engines or are they sourced from somewhere else?

When in doubt you always go by the owners manual for a car, or the gasoline sticker for a bike.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:02 pm

Sure. But I believe the consensus is that most of the manuals suck and are poorly done copy-paste jobs. So we're back to the same issue: what source to trust?

Ultimately, there needs to be an official stance on this. Genuine and PGO need to talk and come to a conclusion.

Anything else requires too much hand-waving and what-if's.

omniphil · Post by **omniphil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:10 pm

Edwub wrote:Sure. But I believe the consensus is that most of the manuals suck and are poorly done copy-paste jobs. So we're back to the same issue: what source to trust?

Ultimately, there needs to be an official stance on this. Genuine and PGO need to talk and come to a conclusion.

Anything else requires too much hand-waving and what-if's.

The manuals do suck, but the gasoline sticker is pretty clear and concise...

Ormond · Post by **Ormond** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:27 pm

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Scoot Dog · Post by **Scoot Dog** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:14 pm

Just looked under the seat of my new, 2013 Blur. The sticker clearly states: Fuel: 91 (R+M)/2 Octane or above (Unleaded Gasoline Only)

That's what I'll be using.

Modern Buddy

My bad - Blur 220 and octane

My bad - Blur 220 and octane

Maybe It Is just me.

Re: Maybe It Is just me.

This isn't your little brothers toy.

Re: This isn't your little brothers toy.

Re: Maybe It Is just me.

Re: This isn't your little brothers toy.

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