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Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey!

 
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monkeykat
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Stella 4T

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

While trying to decide if I should undertake the mentioned EVAP system fixes, I noticed something interesting. Compared to the pics showing the EVAP hose taped to the tank top, the Stella I have has its hoses connected differently.

On my scooter, the hose going from the tank is connected to the bottom of the connector, while the hose to the body comes from the top. Furthermore, the top connection (going to the body), has an arrow directed towards the connection (you can just barely see it on the pic below). Of the other photos I find of Stella's under seat area, it seems about 50/50 for hose hookup directions.

Here is my configuration:


Here's what I would like from you all Stella owners:
1. Is your tank-to-connector hose connected at the bottom or top of the connector?
2. Have you had or suspected the dreaded EVAP issue?
3. Does anyone know if there is a right/wrong way for these hoses? Are there different connectors that would warrant different top/bottom configurations? Does is matter?

Thanks all, and have a good weekend! (Also, thanks to the person I bugged via PM with this issue).


Last edited by monkeykat on Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine was connected the opposite of yours. I had the EVAP problem - fixed by using the vented gas cap etc.

You should mention whether you had the EVAP issue too. I think you did so that means so far we both have had the stalling - even though our hoses were connected in opposing ways!

p.s. that rubber strap holding the canister has already rotted away on mine. It is now held in place using electrical tape. Awesome. Rolling Eyes
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monkeykat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh right! I have *suspected* the EVAP issue as being the reason for 2 instances of mysterious dying during 1 ride. Like another poster, though, it didn't happen after filling up, it happened around 3/4ths of a tank.
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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

monkeykat wrote:
Oh right! I have *suspected* the EVAP issue as being the reason for 2 instances of mysterious dying during 1 ride. Like another poster, though, it didn't happen after filling up, it happened around 3/4ths of a tank.


That's because when you filled up the gas cap was off, allowing some air in. Once you put the cap on and started to ride, the vacuum started to form resulting in vapour lock and your bike stalling.
That is why this condition clears up the moment you open the gas cap.
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Mulliganal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there a lot of folks here buying the 2T vented gas cap, and does the cap completely solve the problem?
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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mulliganal wrote:
Are there a lot of folks here buying the 2T vented gas cap, and does the cap completely solve the problem?


Yes it does. Have not had an issue since on mine. 900 miles w/o the stalling that I used to have before vented cap.

p.s. can you respond to the original question posted, about the location of the hoses?
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Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

monkeykat wrote:

Here's what I would like from you all Stella owners:
1. Is your tank-to-connector hose connected at the bottom or top of the connector?
2. Have you had or suspected the dreaded EVAP issue?
3. Does anyone know if there is a right/wrong way for these hoses? Are there different connectors that would warrant different top/bottom configurations? Does is matter?


Interesting! Mine is connected opposite of the one pictured.

I have had the issue- had the bike towed back to the dealer, but I knew what the issue was before they got back to me, just from reading about it here. My issue happened because when I fill up with the pumps we have in CA (some of you may not know what I'm talking about but it has a rubber bit that shuts off gas flow conservatively so you don't top off) my gas gauge would show 1/2 tank only. I caused the problem by holding back the rubber bit with my spare hand and filling all the way. The gauge then said full tank, but I got vapor lock.

I now just fill up till the darn thing stops. Half tank. But I keep a little spare bottle of gas in the glove box on long rides.

It's irritating, but I've not tried to work around this at all yet. I'm still waiting and hoping for a better solution.
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ericalm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

1. Is your tank-to-connector hose connected at the bottom or top of the connector?
Top!

2. Have you had or suspected the dreaded EVAP issue?
Not so dreaded, but yes.

3. Does anyone know if there is a right/wrong way for these hoses? Are there different connectors that would warrant different top/bottom configurations? Does is matter?
Yours is backwards. It may have been set up that way on purpose to prevent the evap issue (vapor/vacuum lock). The way yours is set up, gas cannot splash up and into the air system. This may be an easy solution.

Have you ever had an evap stall or sputter?

The canister is a one-way valve that theoretically permits vapors from the gas tank to travel into the air system —top to bottom, via the hose from the tank and the hose exiting into the body of the scooter. The problem is that gas can get in here and choke off the air, causing a stall.

The only way yours would be (kind of) right is if the canister were upside-down. And it would still be wrong!

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Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
The way yours is set up, gas cannot splash up and into the air system. This may be an easy solution.

Have you ever had an evap stall or sputter?


I'd like to know this as well. If that's the solution, I'd switch the hoses right now!

Wonder if there is any potential downside to this?

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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

tedwards456 wrote:
ericalm wrote:
The way yours is set up, gas cannot splash up and into the air system. This may be an easy solution.

Have you ever had an evap stall or sputter?


I'd like to know this as well. If that's the solution, I'd switch the hoses right now!

Wonder if there is any potential downside to this?


It doesn't work as Monkeykat's has stalled in this configuration.
Also, the connector is not mounted upside down as it is not a symmetrical shape. The junction that we all see at the top is raised and coming from the middle. The underneath one is attached to the side.
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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

tedwards456 wrote:

I now just fill up till the darn thing stops. Half tank. But I keep a little spare bottle of gas in the glove box on long rides.

It's irritating, but I've not tried to work around this at all yet. I'm still waiting and hoping for a better solution.


If you are only filling the tank half way, you are only travelling with about .5gallons of useable gas.
I fill up my bike to the brim, and it only takes 1.1 gallons. That is it.

Just call scooterwest.com, order a gas cap from the 2T Stella. $18 and you will get it the next day. Unplug your evap hose from the connector, and plug the open end with whatever fits in there to prevent gas leaking out.
That's it. Fixed. Done. And if you don't like it, you can put on the old gas cap, and plug in the hoses in about 30 seconds.

My bike used to stall with a full tank, with the 'mods' I have not had a stall since. 900 miles of riding. And I get to fill it up all the way every time.

What could be a better or simpler solution? There's none coming from the factory as they do not see a problem.
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ericalm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's acknowledged it's a problem; it's just a problem no one can do anything about.

This is all mandated by the state of CA, which has certain design requirements for the evap system. So even if someone engineered a better one, if it's out of spec, it doesn't pass. They're not concerned with the results or the issues associated with the code as it stands. The mandate doesn't work well at all with existing scooter designs and some motorcycles as well. The evap causes problems with Modern Vespas (first tech article on Modern Vespa: disabling the evap system!), Buddys and many others.

It's a bit absurd when applied to something as clean-burning as the Stella, which far exceeds the state requirements for emissions.

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Tom
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

desmolicious wrote:
tedwards456 wrote:

I now just fill up till the darn thing stops. Half tank. But I keep a little spare bottle of gas in the glove box on long rides.

It's irritating, but I've not tried to work around this at all yet. I'm still waiting and hoping for a better solution.


If you are only filling the tank half way, you are only travelling with about .5gallons of useable gas.
I fill up my bike to the brim, and it only takes 1.1 gallons. That is it.

Just call scooterwest.com, order a gas cap from the 2T Stella. $18 and you will get it the next day. Unplug your evap hose from the connector, and plug the open end with whatever fits in there to prevent gas leaking out.
That's it. Fixed. Done. And if you don't like it, you can put on the old gas cap, and plug in the hoses in about 30 seconds.

My bike used to stall with a full tank, with the 'mods' I have not had a stall since. 900 miles of riding. And I get to fill it up all the way every time.

What could be a better or simpler solution? There's none coming from the factory as they do not see a problem.


Yep, I may just do that. Really it hasn't been that much of an issue, my daily commute is like 16 miles, with 3 gas stations on the way. I visit gas stations more often, but for about $2 each time.

I didn't mean to say I'm opposed to the 2t gas cap idea, in fact I've looked to order it a couple times and didn't find the gas cap on their website. You may have just solved that riddle for me by suggesting calling them. Idea

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monkeykat
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another EVAP thread, now with an unofficial survey! Reply with quote

tom wrote:
My issue happened because when I fill up with the pumps we have in CA (some of you may not know what I'm talking about but it has a rubber bit that shuts off gas flow conservatively so you don't top off) my gas gauge would show 1/2 tank only. I caused the problem by holding back the rubber bit with my spare hand and filling all the way. The gauge then said full tank, but I got vapor lock.

I now just fill up till the darn thing stops. Half tank. But I keep a little spare bottle of gas in the glove box on long rides.


My first gas tank "fill up" was pretty useless because of this automatic shutoff (paired with a fear of spewing gas all over my brand new Stella). The odometer read 70 miles, the gas gage had been in the red for 15 miles; I got in a whopping .34 gallons before the shutoff, plus what seemed like quite a bit that kept flowing after the shutoff. After this, the gas gage was at about 3/4 tank. 2 days later, I've ridden 35 miles, and it's on empty again??

Like you, I'd rather just avoid filling it fully and get gas more often to avoid the stalling issue.
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desmolicious
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trick to using the gas pumps with the bellows is to first shake the pump before it is anywhere near your bike. That way any gas that may be in the bellows spills onto the ground, not onto your bike!
Then pull in the bellows and do it again.

Then , holding in the bellows, I slowly fill up. The nice thing about the Stella's gas tank is you can easily see inside and how it is filling up. Doing it this way you can watch as the tank fills (which does not take long as it only holds 1.1 gallons) and stop when it is nearly at the top.

Also - the gas gauge... Ignore the huge red area. It is far too large. I have found that when my needle first hits the red, there is still about 1/3 of a tank left. If you judge the capacity of the tank by the total swept area of the needle, it actually is not that inaccurate. So look where the needle sits before you turn on the bike, that is where it is when it is really empty!
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79_Limited
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviving this old thread since I had this same issue over the past 2 weekends. 25 miles from home so it was not the best feeling.

Which hose do you plug....the one coming from the gas tank or the one going to the canister?

Thanks,
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Robbie
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a need to plug either hose if you have installed the vented cap...shouldn't hurt a thing since the tank is now vented and you don't have to worry about leakage if left in position.

Rob
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is connected the same as the picture. My Stella has stalled about 6 times over 3k miles. 3 times I suspect from not properly warming her up on a 40 degree morning. The remaining times were times when I needed to switch to reserves. No EVAP issues here... Fingers crossed...touch wood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is connected as shown. 250 miles, no stalling problem. I dont fill at
stations, keep my gas stored at home, treated with StaBil ethanol mix.
Carry a spare gallon in my top tank. Also I dont fill it to the top, leave it 1" below the top.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do the 80's Vespa px have this problem as well?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drum Pro wrote:
Do the 80's Vespa px have this problem as well?


Neither of my early 80's P series bikes were fitted with evaporative emissions devices. Piaggio left the US in either '82 or '83, partially due to increasing emissions requirements. The next Piaggio-made P-series to be officially sold in the US wre the 2004-2005 PX150s. I have seen one of these bikes and did not notice evaporative controls installed, but the bike had been altered by previous owners and may have had parts removed.

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ericalm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drum Pro wrote:
Do the 80's Vespa px have this problem as well?

No, these are a much later thing, only in scooters that were offered for sale in all 50 states. For instance, the Millennial PXs were not sold in CA so don't have them. Not sure exactly when it started.

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jamisfoes
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to get a vented cap. Just disconnect the tube the red arrow is pointing to. Leave that tube open to the air. I zip tie mine so it points upward.


like this


Last edited by jamisfoes on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ericalm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamisfoes wrote:
No need to get a vented cap. Just disconnect the tube the red arrow is pointing to. Leave that tube open to the air. I zip tie mine so it points upward.


You've never had gas seep out the open end?

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jamisfoes
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:

You've never had gas seep out the open end?


See the picture above. Very Happy No seepage yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, lets see if I have this right.Disconnect the bottom tube and zip tie it
to the top connection but not connected. Disconect the top tube and reattach it to the bottom connection where the top tube was connected originally.. Right???
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jamisfoes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfhound wrote:
OK, lets see if I have this right.Disconnect the bottom tube and zip tie it
to the top connection but not connected. Disconect the top tube and reattach it to the bottom connection where the top tube was connected originally.. Right???


Just disconnect the tube from the gas tank and zip tie it so it's pointing up and higher than the gas tank. This tube will "vent' the gas tank. The other tube can remain at the top or at the bottom, doesn't matter anymore because it is not functional.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I understand where we are going. So far no problems with my Stella
but I will keep this in mind. Thanks.
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jmer1234
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This started up for me yesterday. My tank is around 1/3 full, and I was fully warmed up when it stalled on me just short of home yesterday. I thought it must be the dreaded vapor lock, especially after getting it into the car port, opening up the tank, wiggling the petcock and saw some bubbles rise out of the gas feed tube.

This afternoon, I decided to swing by the dealer on the way home to talk about it, and it started up again. It ended up stalling 3 times before I limped into the dealership at closing time. The odd thing is that after the first stall, I popped the seat and realized that the gas cap was loose from my once-over the night before. Each subsequent time it stalled after that, it was within a mile. Not enough time to build up vacuum, in my non-experienced opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmer1234 wrote:
This started up for me yesterday. My tank is around 1/3 full, and I was fully warmed up when it stalled on me just short of home yesterday. I thought it must be the dreaded vapor lock, especially after getting it into the car port, opening up the tank, wiggling the petcock and saw some bubbles rise out of the gas feed tube.

This afternoon, I decided to swing by the dealer on the way home to talk about it, and it started up again. It ended up stalling 3 times before I limped into the dealership at closing time. The odd thing is that after the first stall, I popped the seat and realized that the gas cap was loose from my once-over the night before. Each subsequent time it stalled after that, it was within a mile. Not enough time to build up vacuum, in my non-experienced opinion.


Make sure your gas line is routed properly and the fuel isn't traveling uphill to the engine. If that's ok, get the 2T gas cap. It's cheap, and I haven't had a problem since I got one.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
jamisfoes wrote:
No need to get a vented cap. Just disconnect the tube the red arrow is pointing to. Leave that tube open to the air. I zip tie mine so it points upward.


You've never had gas seep out the open end?


I Initially did this and had gas constantly seeping out of the hose. I also have a 2T cap so i just shoved a screw I had that fit in the opening and no more issues.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a cheaper fix than the 2T cap. Drill a tiny hole in the top of the existing cap. I am sure the dealer would have been happy to sell me a 2T cap if I pushed it, but this was free and I can get a 2T cap if i have issues. We’ll see how it goes.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fill my tank to the brim and live in a mountain region. I have never had any issues with this EVAP system although after 2500 miles the seal around the cap where the vent hose comes out is starting to sweat. I also found that when my gas gauge is at the bottom of the red section it's time to flip the petcock over to reserve. By doing a mileage check I have found that the red area in the fuel gauge is like a forewarning leading up to the time when reserve is necessary.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My stella has a sticker on it showing this to be the correct way to hook up the EVAP canister (gas tank to bottom connector). I will take a picture when I get home.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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