Is there something wrong with the Vespa 250 GTS?

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:58 pm

Got the new rubber put on my Honda today. Went to the big "We carry just about Everything" dealership in nearby Columbus and so had plenty of time to browse.

A couple of years ago, they carried, among other things, the full Vespa line. Today, they only have two 250's left and the salesman says he doesn't think they will be getting any more.

Too bad. The both look awfully nice. One black and once silver. Each $5,499.

And, of course, I'm broke.

I intentionally took some lo-res pics so I could post them but the site doesn't like my extension for some reason.

I suppose Modern Vespa would be the proper place to post this but I'm not registered there.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:40 pm

I am sorry to say there is nothing wrong with GTS 250's, they are great bikes. I think that price is decent also. I do find the maintenance to be more costly than the Buddy. I have a little over 11,000 (which is not much, I know) on mine and it has been perfect. I hate to use a cliched word, but unfortunately it fits-The Vespa has a more "refined" ride than my husbands 250 Kymco (and certainly more than the Buddy but that is not a fair comparison).

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:04 am

I can say that the look very well built and from my sitting, they fit me quite well. I would think they would be pretty highway-capable. In fact, I can imagine a well-planned tour (particularly the packing part) would be a lot of fun.

Sadly, even if I could afford one, I'd be concerned about being orphaned.

I wouldn't look sissy on the black one, would I?

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:47 am

The black ones rock! A friend of mine got one (it might be a 300cc model) and I am envious. it's gorgeous.

ravenlore · Post by **ravenlore** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:17 am

Nothing wrong with them...they got discontinued when the 300's came out...

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:35 am

The 300 GTS is basically the same scooter with the current 278cc engine. In other words, there is nothing wrong with the GTS and you can go out and buy one whenever you wish. To say it a different way, the GTS and it's variants (the GTS super and the GTV) are really the only fully highway capable scooters that maintain a somewhat classic scooter configuration and appearance. They have quite a following and are well loved by many of us.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:36 am

Southerner wrote:
I wouldn't look sissy on the black one, would I?

no of course not. my husband looks hot on my yellow one. Just asking any girl (or guy) they will agree

it is quite freeway capable (and this from someone living in S.cal), but longer stretches of road cause throttle hand fatigue and if people are cruising at 85-90, you feel a bit vulnerable. My freeway jaunts tend to be under 20miles so it does great.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:43 am

Southerner wrote:Sadly, even if I could afford one, I'd be concerned about being orphaned.

Actually, you would be less likely to be orphaned owning a GTS Vespa than owning any other model of scooter presently sold in America. The Japanese companies introduce and discontinue models with astonishing regularity. Most of the other European scooters never make it here. And the Taiwanese companies seem to have constant problems with their importers. So far so good for Genuine as the PGO and LML importer but you never know.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:09 am

i think its an ok deal considering new 300's start just $500 above for the 300 gts. but if the dealer can make it come in for substantially less then a new one when all is said and done that would be good. cutting fees and what not. i mean a new one with fuel injection is just $500 more and that is something many would be glad to pay for. but if these are the only vespa's in town, well....

...maybe its good you can't afford these just quite yet. all that said if i had the cash i might be one to have to go in for one myself

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:03 am

I am pretty sure the GTS 250 is fuel injected also. Just casual observation of the modernvespa board leaves me with the following: the 300 is not really faster or better than the 250-this coming from people who have had both. Outside of the fuel pump issues on some older 250's (repaired under warranty), the 300's seem to have had some issues that the 250s have not (so sorry can not site all the examples, for some reason the one where the whites one get rusty easily come to mind, but there was other stuff I do not recall). Honestly if I had the chance to get a new 250 or a 300 I would probably pick the 250 (as it would be cheaper and arguably more proven reliability wise)...although I do like the look of the 300 better.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:20 am

oh heck yeah, then. if fuel injected how often does a person see vespa marked down even a few hundred dollars much less $500?

could be a very sweet deal after all. if TS were getting in on it

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:33 am

JHScoot wrote:oh heck yeah, then. if fuel injected how often does a person see vespa marked down even a few hundred dollars much less $500?

Actually there are still a number of unsold GTS 250s around. And yes, the 250 is liquid cooled and fuel injected just like the 300. My local dealer has turned over some new old stock he has acquired from failed dealerships for as low as $4500 - nearly $2000 below full OTD price a couple years ago. The GTS 250 can be a good buy right now if you find the right one from the right source.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:12 am

Depending on market, there are still GTS 250s from closed dealers, overstocks, repos, etc. floating around and there may be some good deals around.

It's a well-made, solid scooter. Good performance, handles very well. Personally, I find it a little boring to ride. And as much as people talk about its Vespa-y good looks, to me it looks like a Vespa that needs to go on a diet.

I've heard the 300 has better torque off the line.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:26 am

wow thanks for the info mb people. i must say i am surprised there are a number of readily available unsold vespa's at discount out and about. "new" ones, i mean

just goes to show where my head is when it comes to scooters

but that is fantastic news for many of us looking in the future.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:01 am

JHScoot wrote:wow thanks for the info mb people. i must say i am surprised there are a number of readily available unsold vespa's at discount out and about. "new" ones, i mean

just goes to show where my head is when it comes to scooters

but that is fantastic news for many of us looking in the future.

The reason there are so many discounted Vespas is because they have priced thsemselves out of the scooter market and demanded that they be accepted as a "luxury" brand, forgetting what made them popular in the first place: A well-priced good looking and well handling ride.

As a former GTS250ie owner, I can honestly say that they are a fantastic freeway bike... and a money pit. Aside from initial cost, you will not find a more expensive scooter to service and maintain. It is not DIY friendly, and mine had the annoying exhaust coupler problem that arose just as the recall was going out, causing major damage that never allowed the scooter to run right even after they "fixed" it. It was nice for as close to a standard scooter a "Maxi" scoot could get, but it doesn't handle as sharply as an LX, ET or P-series (obviously) and isn't as compact as a scooter should be in my opinion.

15uzu · Post by **15uzu** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:26 am

In a nutshell........"Vespa........Harley Davidson of the scooter industry"

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:50 am

Southerner wrote:...............
I intentionally took some lo-res pics so I could post them but the site doesn't like my extension for some reason.

I suppose Modern Vespa would be the proper place to post this but I'm not registered there.

http://www.irfanview.com

Easy to use graphics converter program. Supports just about every type of image format and can resize to.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:14 pm

15uzu wrote:In a nutshell........"Vespa........Harley Davidson of the scooter industry"

That's about right honestly. Now, I'm not bagging on all of Vespa. Hell, I ride a P200e! But, what Vespa has become is a bit sad in my opinion. It's why I still love (and plan to get another) Stella: They get the inexpensive model right and still get why.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:31 pm

Think these would sell to the Vespa crowd?

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:28 pm

Everyone is entitled to their favorite rides of course. Interesting, however, that most of this dislike of the GTS Vespa is coming from folks who have little or no experience with them - neotrotsky being an exception. Okay, I'll bite. If you want a reliable 12" wheel scooter with good performance to ride at highway speeds, what else do you choose? The infamous Genuine Cruiser?

(also fine to comment about the price of Vespas - which is right up there, but have you priced a Honda SH150 lately, or a Honda Silverwing, or a Suzuki Burgman 400, etc?)

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:42 pm

neotrotsky wrote:The reason there are so many discounted Vespas is because they have priced thsemselves out of the scooter market and demanded that they be accepted as a "luxury" brand, forgetting what made them popular in the first place: A well-priced good looking and well handling ride.

There's somewhat more to it than that. During and after the scooter boom of 2008, Vespa started opening dealerships like crazy. At the height of this, there were more Vespa dealerships than BMW auto dealerships in several small states. (Not the same product, but indicative of the demographics and demand for luxury items.) The number of dealers in SoCal (north of LA to San Diego) essentially tripled in the course of a few years, though even at its peak demand/sales had not. Because they count scooters shipped to dealers (not sold to owners) as sales, they then started pushing a lot of stock on the dealers. Few to none of these dealers owned the stock; they all financed via "flooring" plans, meaning they paid interest on every unsold scooter in their shop.

This is how Vespa North America sales dropped approx. 75% in a year. When the recession hit, not only were sales low, but dealers couldn't take on any more stock. They were then paying for all the scooters on their floors yet not selling anything. Shops started closing and most of their stock would up on the market via finance companies, bankruptcy auction, sell-backs to other shops, etc. We probably lost seven or eight dealers in SoCal—I lost count. (Some closed and re-opened, or other shops picked up the dealership.)

At the same time, Piaggio/Vespa NA had over-ordered and was sitting on warehouses full of scooters. Almost every company had done this but none had expanded as ambitiously as Piaggio/Vespa. They were stocked not just with Vespas, but also the Piaggio and Aprilia lines. And how many of those $14K+ Moto Guzzis has anyone ever seen on the road?

The Vespas aren't priced out of the market, IMHO. The prices are pretty much where they need to be for their buyers. The big issue was flooding the market with product that no one could sell. Along with this was their attachment to the "boutique" dealer model, which clearly doesn't work outside of a few high-volume, affluent markets such as LA, SF, Seattle and NYC. In many cities where Piaggio-only shops closed, multi-line dealers have picked them up and have had success offering a range of good product.

The marketing and positioning of the Vespas is a whole other kettle of fish. I'll just say that by their continued focus on "Vespanomics" and the economic benefits of riding a Vespa, they attract would-be buyers who are looking for economical options and are more likely to buy something more practical and less pricey. You can't sell a luxury brand based on how much money people will save by buying the most expensive product on the market.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:24 pm

^well that is an interesting business / sales model by vespa na to say the least. sounds like they put dealers in a bit of a squeeze

i must admit the reason i am interested is i would like a bigger scooter. a midrange would be fine (SYM HD 200 style, etc), or a "big" midrange such as a Kymco DT or new People 300 would be really nice, too. and highway ready as well. my plans call for keeping my Agility, getting a mid range, and a freeway capable scoot such as...idk something bigger

which brings me back to the vespa 250 / 300. but i can't help but feel for SoCal freeways at distance and perhaps a few times a week its just not the best scoot for the task. i read its stable and comfy, but its small tires wear fast at speed as i understand, and its "stance" on the freeway must be a bit demure to say the least

so i am thinking the "big" vespa is actually MY mid range scoot. however its an expensive midrange scoot. and therein lies the rub: it's not really expensive. i could get a "new" big vespa and a used highway scooter (or even new) for around $12,000. said it before and will again: you can't buy a cheap subcompact CAGE for that much money

however i am frugal even in good times and i can get a "new" People 250 or "new" HD 200 for for less then half the cost of a vespa and make that my mid range scoot. so why vespa? argh! aesthetics, aesthetics, aesthetics. they sure are nice. and i do feel they are "upscale" scooters for the 250 / 300's. i want to be able to "arrive" at a wedding, business meeting, or a 5 Star Hotel on a scooter. a big white vespa would look perfect with a tux. um, a SYM HD 200 not so much :/

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:44 am

JHScoot wrote:well that is an interesting business / sales model by vespa na to say the least. sounds like they put dealers in a bit of a squeeze

Well, Vespa dealers have certainly been caught in a squeeze alright. Vespa tried to expand its dealer network and got caught in the great scooter crash of the last couple years. Not as if anyone else did much better though. Around here, the two Vespa dealers have soldiered on. The biggest BMW dealer shut its doors. The only Sym dealer closed. The local Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha dealer closed - still another combined dealership on the otherside of town. Kymcos are sold by one small powersport dealership. One Buddy/Stella dealer, but it is also a Vespa dealer. I don't know any scooter or motorcycle dealership that has had an easy time of it.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:39 am

There was a dealer in town who was carrying SYM, Kymco and Genuine. Back then he told me he talked to Vespa and they told him he couldn't carry their products unless that was the only brand he sold.

Sadly he went under. He sold his remaining inventory to a lawn equipment dealer who will continue to sell Kymco but sadly not Genuine.

Imagine my surprise when I find that the local longstanding Yamaha shop now carries Vespa/Piaggio products. I wish him all success but I suspect the bulk of scooter sales there are still to college students, who are often well-heeled but only need enough scooter to carry them about campus until they graduate. Even to them, a Vespa would pricey for a short term investment.

Maybe I'll get lucky later and find a nice one for sale by somebody about to graduate.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:53 am

yeah, save your scheckles during the summer and then @ fall and early winter, people sell a lot of them. Still, deals can be had anytime for the watchful buyer.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:53 am

PeteH wrote:Think these would sell to the Vespa crowd?

Not really, since alot of Vespa owners I know (myself included) either have or had a Stella as well. They aren't "just" like a Vespa, but close enough to be fun and have their own quirks. I won't turn down a clean Stella, because I know it's not a Vespa. The Stella is it's own bike and a fun one at that! You can't find a new PX for what the Stella costs.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:56 am

ericalm wrote:Depending on market, there are still GTS 250s from closed dealers, overstocks, repos, etc. floating around and there may be some good deals around.

never titled or sold 2009 for $3995 in Colorado, yup

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/mcd/2746318130.html

gotta put that one in the cl thread

and in Oakland

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcd/2783313394.html

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:30 pm

neotrotsky wrote:
PeteH wrote:Think these would sell to the Vespa crowd?
Not really, since alot of Vespa owners I know (myself included) either have or had a Stella as well. They aren't "just" like a Vespa, but close enough to be fun and have their own quirks. I won't turn down a clean Stella, because I know it's not a Vespa. The Stella is it's own bike and a fun one at that! You can't find a new PX for what the Stella costs.

Yeah, just making fun of the Harley vs. rice burner mentality.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:33 am

Dooglas wrote:Everyone is entitled to their favorite rides of course. Interesting, however, that most of this dislike of the GTS Vespa is coming from folks who have little or no experience with them - neotrotsky being an exception. Okay, I'll bite. If you want a reliable 12" wheel scooter with good performance to ride at highway speeds, what else do you choose? The infamous Genuine Cruiser? (also fine to comment about the price of Vespas - which is right up there, but have you priced a Honda SH150 lately, or a Honda Silverwing, or a Suzuki Burgman 400, etc?)

Honestly, I've heard alot of folks dislike the GTS for being too much of an in-between bike: Too portly to be a "true" scooter for some, and too small to be a proper maxi-scooter for freeway use. It's not as maneuverable as you would expect for it's smaller wheelbase, but not as fast as you'd hope for having more displacement than the LX150. I just found it ...lacking. And, overly complex for the sake of it.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:52 am

Seems to me that the original Vespa, which WAS THE original scooter was designed to provide cheap transport that would be easy to maintain and repair. Bearing in mind even just the short list of modern scooters mentioned above, much of what's being produced now are "anti-scooters" that eliminate one of the genre's important virtues.

The Stella maintains the original tradition simply by being an old design with only incremental changes.

Simple, modern scooters can and should be produced. You can talk about the increased complexity brought on by environmental requirements but fuel injection, radiators and catalytic converters really don't require a lot of maintenance.

Modern "scooters" are in danger of becoming marginalized, like motorcycles, as "powersports": esoteric toys rather than sensible, efficient transport that also happens to be fun.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:24 am

this thread has helped me narrow my choices down to three bikes for the future:

Kymco Downtown 300 (fit dependent)
Kymco People 300gti
SYM RV250

sorry big Vespa. nice as you are you will have to wait on account of practicality winning out

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:36 am

Alliance isn't importing the SYM RV250 anymore, just the HD200 Evo.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:43 am

Yes, it appears that the Carter Bros. fiasco had hurt SYM in the U. S. pretty badly. One could point to the economic situation but Kymco seems to be going great guns.

It's too bad since the RV250 is really loaded for a smaller maxi.

Hopefully Kymco will continue keeping the Like 200i as a low-price leader, and maybe they can see their way clear to boost it to an honest 200cc in the future.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:55 am

JHScoot wrote:this thread has helped me narrow my choices down to three bikes for the future:
Kymco Downtown 300 (fit dependent)
Kymco People 300gti
SYM RV250

As others have commented, the Sym probably isn't in the running. The bike I would suggest as the 3rd on the list would be the Piaggio Beverly 350. Coming later in the spring. Essentially the same MSRP as the two Kymcos. Technologically one of the most advanced engines around and rated at 33 hp. It certainly has my attention.

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic89918

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:27 am

well guys thanks for the info on the RV250. shame as it is. i have not been "in the know" lately about what is up with SYM / Alliance / Lance, but it is a shame that SYM has not been able to gain traction here for w/e reason as i believe they make a great scooter

and i will put the Beverly 350 on my list, ty very much. i know a guy who posts on the Kymco forum thinks the People is a superior scoot (he has rode them both) but i will have to be the judge of that myself!

thanks for the info. the HD200 now looks like a good mid range scoot for me but its another "big wheeled" scoot and i like small wheels

maybe a USED but well maintained Vespa 200 could be had at a good price? we shall see

Post by **illnoise** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:24 am

Your decision just got easier… Perhaps a bit too relevant to this thread…

http://2strokebuzz.com/2012/01/19/mp3-p ... rs-slashed

I agree that the BV350 is almost surely going to be a winner, it's certainly the only interesting scooter left in the Piaggio USA lineup.

And back to the original post, yep, you can find just about any Piaggio or Vespa scooter you like at dealers, as long as you like black and silver 2009 models.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:01 am

^ boy ill / twostrokebuzz that seems like some pretty big news coming from piaggio. i don't quite understand the color changes unless some colors are very unpopular, but i see all manner of colors on the road it seems. i would think if someone wanted a different color it could be ordered but i guess not what with leftover stock still on hand and what not

discontinued MP3 in the U.S.? another surprise for me as there seems no shortage of them around L.A. i mean it is a scooter so there are not a ton of them but i see 'em often enough and know more then a few ride them in the L.A. Scooter Group

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:47 pm

illnoise wrote:Your decision just got easier… Perhaps a bit too relevant to this thread…

http://2strokebuzz.com/2012/01/19/mp3-p ... rs-slashed

I agree that the BV350 is almost surely going to be a winner, it's certainly the only interesting scooter left in the Piaggio USA lineup.

And back to the original post, yep, you can find just about any Piaggio or Vespa scooter you like at dealers, as long as you like black and silver 2009 models.

Sadly, it's one more big step closer to Piaggio pulling Vespa and Piaggio Scooters out of the US market again.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:19 pm

illnoise wrote:Your decision just got easier… Perhaps a bit too relevant to this thread…
http://2strokebuzz.com/2012/01/19/mp3-p ... rs-slashed

I wouldn't take everything in this article literally. In 2011 the only MP3 that showed up on the dealers order sheets at the start of the year was the promised, but never introduced, MP3 hybrid. For all that, the other models are here and still being sold. To say that the 250s and 300s are being dropped in the Piaggio lines is true but no big story there. The 300 engine replaced the 250, now the 350 is replacing the 300 engine. There was never an intent to offer them side by side. I would be surprised if Piaggio dropped the 500 in the US, but we will see.

It is certainly true that the Piaggio and Aprillia brands have never goitten too much traction in the US, and some of the other Piaggio brands have never seen this side of the pond. A quick look at scooters on the road will tell you, however, that Vespas are selling as well or better than any other scooter around. It would not be surprising if Piaggio - and Vespa - trim some models that sell slowly or are unnecessary to their line-up. Every manufacturer does that. Among the Vespas, the 300 super, for example, is essentially identical to the 300 GTS except for trivial differences in trim. It was never clear to me why the two models existed side by side.

I'm not worried about my Vespa being orphaned any time soon. We are really lucky that Genuine seems to have weathered the ups and downs of the past 3 years. "America's biggest little scooter company" does not have the resources behind it that a large corporation like Piaggio has. Genuine has also dropped several models of course but seem like they are in it for the long run.

Post by **illnoise** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:39 pm

Well a comment on the site says they're training for the Yourban at the california service training facility, so maybe my source was overreacting, but yeah, I'm with neotrotsky that it's a surprise they've lasted this long in the U.S. Maybe a more realistic product line will help them survive longer, but it's a bummer.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:15 pm

illnoise wrote:Well a comment on the site says they're training for the Yourban at the california service training facility, so maybe my source was overreacting, but yeah, I'm with neotrotsky that it's a surprise they've lasted this long in the U.S. Maybe a more realistic product line will help them survive longer, but it's a bummer.

Yup, someone (AlexBV?) posted on MV that they'd just done training for the BV 350, too.

I am pretty excited about that scoot. It's high time some company started making improvements to the basic CVT design almost all auto scooters use.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Firatly, isnt that.what Honda's shooting for with the Integra? Ans second, what did Piaggio do?

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Southerner wrote:Firstly, isnt that.what Honda's shooting for with the Integra? And second, what did Piaggio do?

Honda and Piaggio are going at this two different ways. The dual clutch transmission on the Integra uses cut gears like the DSG transmission in a VW or Audi. Technologically very advanced but also very expensive to manufacture and service. Piaggio is going a different way to improve the design of the CVT transmission. The information that has been posted here and on Modern Vespa have primarily discussed the redesigned automatic clutch but I have seen some speculation that they are taking a somewhat different approach with the CVT belt as well. Both the 350 engine and transmission are brand new designs which is not something we see too often in the scooter field. The Buddys, for instance, use modified versions of the old Honda GY6 design which seems to be the mainstay of much of Asian scooter production.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:45 pm

That's because it's rock solid.

I also think Honda had the right idea putting automatics in regular motorcycles.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:48 pm

PeteH wrote:Think these would sell to the Vespa crowd?

Well, seeing my Vespas have been more reliable than my Stella...

Modern Buddy

Is there something wrong with the Vespa 250 GTS?

Is there something wrong with the Vespa 250 GTS?

Re: Is there something wrong with the Vespa 250 GTS?