Keeping it real...

[michelle_7728]

All of us on this forum have decided to take this risk, and enjoy riding...this is NOT to change anyone's mind...I'm thinking more like the beginning of the Proficient Motorcycling book...stuff you don't always hear, but which is very good to keep in mind so that you are always at your observant best when riding.

http://trafficsafety.org/safety/sharing ... fatalities

http://ask.metafilter.com/45318/Scooter ... otorcycles

http://www2.journalnow.com/news/2008/ju ... ar-109442/

[JHScoot]

The best thing to do, if you are interested, is take a course like that offered by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Statistics show that people who learn to ride through a course like this, instead of being self taught, have a significantly lower accident rate



Ok then. I will take the course despite already having an M1. Although I have read, studied, ride well and with full faculties both mind and body, I will see what it has to offer.

But I must say this is scooter riding. I am not trying to learn how to ride a MC, as I never will ride one. I have read the MSF course booklet a few times, the DMV handbook a few times, and have had SEE down pat as IPDE (Identify, predict, decide, execute) since the age of 16. I have never been in an accident caused by me or otherwise, but I have avoided plenty in cage and on bike. Oh, I went down on slippery stuff once at 30mph. Would have happened with or w/o taking MSF, pretty sure.

So, what is left to learn that will save me? I hope it's worth my 2 days and $250.

Also, I wonder if that stat is relative? I mean less riders crash who have taken the course? But I would bet most people haven't taken it. So more people crash who haven't.

Who knows, maybe taking it will just make me feel safer? If so, good enough, I suppose. Although I feel pretty safe as is. And sometimes the more I "study" this stuff the more I flinch at just about anything on the road, expecting the worst every time a car pokes out a driveway or begins to make a right turn in front of me

[ericalm]

Stats are just that: aggregate numbers and probabilities. If you're confident in your ability to learn everything the MSF has to offer on your own, then keep the money.

The course is no more a guarantee that you won't crash than not taking it is a guarantee that you will. All the equivocation and trying to work the stats win't change that. It's not that fewer/more people who do/don't take the course crash, it's that taking the course clearly reduces your probability of crashing and dying in a crash.

But that's kind of the point: There are no guarantees. You can opt for more training and practice, or opt to try to go it alone and hope for the best.

It might work out for you, and if it does, congratulations on beating the odds. If it doesn't, well, it's not because you were uninformed.

In the unfortunate event that you don't take the course and suffer a crash, you can always say, "Well, I probably still would have crashed even if I had taken the MSF!"

And if you do take the course and suffer a crash, you can always say, "See, I took the course and still crashed!" (Provided you survive these hypothetical crashes to make such declarations.)

Even though the latter is a less probable outcome than not taking the course and crashing, it's still quite possible. I know this from experience. Yet I still say that I benefitted from taking the MSF despite having 10,000 miles experience (and my M1) at that point.

[JHScoot]

Thanks for the post, Admin.

Well since I posted I have given this whole issue thought having made some "con" posts about MSF. You know eric I just want to ride and relax and have fun. Another big thing is I don't fear death. At all. Just part of my personal make-up and way of being. Every time I am in discussion with others about just about anything related to....life and living, I am usually the one trying to alleviate fears of others by reminding them none of us are going to be here much longer. So, enjoy the time you have. Most want to extend life as long as possible and into the hereafter. I am not one of those.

Today as I rode I did think of my posts in a previous thread the other day. And yes, when cars poked out of cross streets ready to turn but stopped in the nick of time when they see me, I flinched. Almost like a superstition. As in "I am not safe as can be. I should know something I don't know." When I know damn well I have to keep on going, position my bike properly, see an out, and be ready to take action. These are things which I thought i was past thinking about as i ride as i just....ride. It's an automatic thought process. How many times must I have what I already know emphasized?

I have read posts in some places where new riders come out of MSF more fearful then when they went in. This is why i really do think "ride in a parking lot and around some quiet streets before taking the course."

Well, that's what I did. And I like to give advice based on what i actually did to learn, not what i think others should do or if i take MSF all of sudden believe myself a "better, safer rider" then those who have not. Or better and safer then I already am.

Books, reading, study, doing figure 8's and practicing avoidance maneuvers and quick stops. Idk, man...

I will take it and think nothing of it. I don't want to ride scared or with phantom concerns every time i head out. I am a SoCal urban commuter, as are you. So, I don't have to tell you what that is like. I am a confident rider. IF i were any more confident I think I may just be fooling myself about what is REAL out there on the road concerning physics and physical matter that i have little and no control over.

This thread is called "keeping it real." That's about as real as I can get. TBH taking a course in being a stuntman or something like it would most likely be very useful for riders and their safety, too. But no one ever mentions that.

I refuse to ride scared or under the impression i am safer for taking a beginners riding course.

I am invisible, not even there. I see and hear everything. On my way home today I relaxed and enjoyed the ride. I still saw that Lexus coming out of the driveway as i rounded a blind corner. I gave it a friendly "toot toot." I saw the top of the work van over some trees descending a hill in a blind turn. I was ready for it. But, I had to keep riding. I would like to ride without thinking "what does MSF say to do in this situation?"

As you know with traffic behind you all you can do is ride. And so I ride. I have about 20 more years left to do it, 25 if lucky. I would like it to be fun and freeing and not much more.

I want to thank all the MSF hounds out there for giving me pause for thought in all this. But as you can clearly see even after i take the course i need to see things my way to ride my way, and in my own state of mind to be comfortable. And so far, so good

I am sure I will learn something useful, though. Who knows, maybe even life saving. You never know, right?

[Mutt the Hoople]

I see nothing wrong with being informed. For me I'd rather take the course and wear the gear and be safe as I can while knowing full well that my scooter is not as safe as my car. But I'm only willing to risk so much. The scariest people I see on two wheels are the sport bike riders. Not all of them, but enough for them to stand out way above the other riders. I've had the crap scared out of me by those guys. I worry about the scooterists who careen through the streets without much control, and they tend to be wearing shorts and tshirts. At least most of them wear helmets. But the scariest thing of all are the drivers on their cell phones. They are way out of control. I'm not sure
More regulations for scooters is a bad thing. But I almost wish that drivers had to take refresher courses for their cars every so many years. The attitudes are just out of hand. A little common sense all around would not hurt anybody.

[ericalm]

Another big thing is I don't fear death. At all. Just part of my personal make-up and way of being.

Well… What about pain? And financial burden? There are a myriad of issues than can result from a crash.

We all decide to how much risk we want to assume when we ride. It's not just the MSF but how much or what kind of gear we wear, our behaviors, etc. I sometimes ride too fast, don't always wear boots, never wear riding pants, etc.

That's all fine and good, but I think that we should all also be honest with ourselves about it. The efficacy of the MSF is pretty apparent. To me, all this questioning the class and its value seems like a way to rationalize assuming more risk. It's a bit disingenuous, like those who question how effective a full face helmet is versus an open face one. There's nothing wrong with just someone admitting that they prefer an open face regardless of the additional risk.

Same goes for not taking the MSF. The large majority of those who have actually taken the class found it valuable and rewarding. Why raise all these questions and levy criticisms rather than just saying, "Just don't want to. I'll accept the extra risk."? That would be keeping it real.

[JHScoot]

Another big thing is I don't fear death. At all. Just part of my personal make-up and way of being.

Well… What about pain? And financial burden? There are a myriad of issues than can result from a crash.

We all decide to how much risk we want to assume when we ride. It's not just the MSF but how much or what kind of gear we wear, our behaviors, etc. I sometimes ride too fast, don't always wear boots, never wear riding pants, etc.

That's all fine and good, but I think that we should all also be honest with ourselves about it. The efficacy of the MSF is pretty apparent. To me, all this questioning the class and its value seems like a way to rationalize assuming more risk. It's a bit disingenuous, like those who question how effective a full face helmet is versus an open face one. There's nothing wrong with just someone admitting that they prefer an open face regardless of the additional risk.

Same goes for not taking the MSF. The large majority of those who have actually taken the class found it valuable and rewarding. Why raise all these questions and levy criticisms rather than just saying, "Just don't want to. I'll accept the extra risk."? That would be keeping it real.

Well don't think I have not asked myself the same questions. About why I am reluctant and questioning of MSF. It goes without saying it has much merit and value.

Oh, and I do understand about risk of injury and all it's consequences to family and finances if it were to happen. And it's a concern. But I don't think about it. I don't think that is selfish.. But as you know I don't have to be selfish to be considered that by others because i ride. My family and closest friends and neighbors worry about all that. Seriously. And get frustrated with me because i "have no car to carry people in." I have two people in my building who gave up riding MC's when they became fathers. I read a post by a guy the other day who gave it up for 30 years to raise a family and become "respected and responsible." Now he is back. So yes, I do understand riding and riders and all which goes with. At least to that extent. But when I began riding I just accepted all that and put it behind me. Speaking for myself.

But I am off track. I am myself trying to get to the heart of the matter of my MSF aversion. And I think I am there. So here it is:

I have been riding for 2 years now and over 10,000 miles. Not much, but I do ride. And I will learn from MSF. BUT it's value as something that will truly keep us safe and alive in a real life situation is little imho. We all have riding skills. Some more so then others. And we know how to ride in certain situations and when not to ride at all. And it all goes just so far.

So my trouble not with the program but with it's intense advocacy by some riders. It's almost like a religion. It is the be all and end all of safe and prudent riding, and oft times the FIRST thing mentioned for someone to do just to learn to ride a scooter. So I ask myself why that is, too?

And yes, I do have a problem with a complete newb given an unrestricted M1 after 2 days of riding. The course is good, but it isn't that good. We all know it. It should be a restricted M1. If safety is really the primary concern. I mean I am sure people take the course and ride and ride well afterward. But they could have done that, anyway. I think we can all agree perhaps two days in a parking lot does not make a rider qualified to be on the road. Better to have taken the course then not? Maybe. But you're no safer on the road then anyone else who knows how to ride and has half a brain. imo. And it's just my opinion.

In a way this is like my own brand of safe riding. I will take from MSF and learn from it. But I won't assume I needed to do it or am any safer or better rider for it. I am always in danger. That's the choice I made. And I will always be an astute a rider as I can be.

But a better and safer one for taking riding / safety course? I would never assume that. I can't really afford to. I am always just as vulnerable as the next guy. Even that guy popping wheelies on his Ducati down the road somewhere

I am gifting myself MSF for my 47Th Birthday. Seriously. So, that's that.

[Aguacate]

But I almost wish that drivers had to take refresher courses for their cars every so many years. The attitudes are just out of hand. A little common sense all around would not hurt anybody.

1!!!!!!!!
as a longtime bicyclist and runner I have dealt with my share of idiot drivers, but the cell phone thing scares the crap out of me. It puts everyone at risk...not just the 2 wheelers. I wish the police would take this problem more seriously...I have seen more than one of them on their cell phone in traffic as well.

[smarkum]

I took the Class after having gotten my motorcycle cert back when I was 19yo and rode a little 450 motorcycle. I sold it somewhere in my 20's. At 38 I bought a Stella, rode it one year, and then took the course on my Stella! It was a blast. And, that I was able to complete the course on my own scoot was invaluable. I took it after all the miles I've ridden because I value safety. I want to do whatever I can to ensure I'm as safe as I can be. I learned a lot from the course. I am going to take the Advanced Class, this time on my Buddy, sometime in the fall. And, I'm finally going to purchase my own copy of Proficient Motorcycling. The library card has my name on it so many times, it is a bit embarrassing
I like to look through it though just to remind me of all the skills. And, I commute daily, so I practice the skills I've learned daily. And, I'm not more afraid after taking the class. I'm more confident in my ability to predict trouble spots and to avoid as I know differnt techniques that I would not have learned on my own.

[skully93]

I gained a lot of knowledge and got to know a lot of cool people in my MSF class, and the foundation of the skills I learned there have already helped me immensely.

I don't really fear death, but I do fear massive, crippling injury and pain . I also have a great life and want to enjoy it for a good long while with my lovely wife.

[scootavaran]

But I almost wish that drivers had to take refresher courses for their cars every so many years. The attitudes are just out of hand. A little common sense all around would not hurt anybody.

1!!!!!!!!
as a longtime bicyclist and runner I have dealt with my share of idiot drivers, but the cell phone thing scares the crap out of me. It puts everyone at risk...not just the 2 wheelers. I wish the police would take this problem more seriously...I have seen more than one of them on their cell phone in traffic as well.

Yeah I agree. I would love for far stricter rules for car drivers. After all driving is still a privilege not a right.
A few years back I gave up on owning a car and then later i got rid of my cell phone cause I simply didnt like the ways things were headed...oh the sence of freedom

As for the MSF course, I would love to take it just to learn a few more tricks but the $350. starting price has kept me from doing it.

[Mutt the Hoople]

But I almost wish that drivers had to take refresher courses for their cars every so many years. The attitudes are just out of hand. A little common sense all around would not hurt anybody.

1!!!!!!!!
as a longtime bicyclist and runner I have dealt with my share of idiot drivers, but the cell phone thing scares the crap out of me. It puts everyone at risk...not just the 2 wheelers. I wish the police would take this problem more seriously...I have seen more than one of them on their cell phone in traffic as well.

Yeah I agree. I would love for far stricter rules for car drivers. After all driving is still a privilege not a right.
A few years back I gave up on owning a car and then later i got rid of my cell phone cause I simply didnt like the ways things were headed...oh the sence of freedom

As for the MSF course, I would love to take it just to learn a few more tricks but the $350. starting price has kept me from doing it.

YES!!! I have a cell phone, but I turn it to airplane mode when I drive or ride. And when I read a book. Or work on my art. Or play my piano or guitar. And some of my friends get really pissed off. They are the reason I started doing it that way. They'd call, I wouldn't answer because I was driving... And instead of leaving a message they would ballistic call me. When I would call back I would say I was driving so why didn't you leave a message? And the answer would be, I know you have your phone with you. I said I DO NOT USE MY CELL PHONE WHEN I DRIVE. They told me how THEY use their cell phone and drive and they do fine. I said No, you don't. That is why I meet with you instead of riding in the car with you. You run lights, almost cause accidents, all while obliviously chatting away. I also said I have things that I enjoy and hate to be interrupted ten times a day. Before cell phones, I heard from these same friends about once every three days. Now it's ten times a day and it's all about nothing unless I controll it. I still have a car. I need it on occasion but I can go a couple of weeks without going near it. I chucked the television out though. And somehow I manage to be better informed than most people who are glued to it.

In other words... I'm with you!

[JHScoot]

Haven't time to but skim the posts atm but nonetheless I could not commute today and interact with traffic and not give this thread thought.

I think for me it's just the politics of riding. If there is such a thing? And being certain discussions do get passionate about anything from safety to oil (lol) concerning owning and riding a scooter...there would indeed seem to be such a thing.

For me it just comes down to my world view. Which I take with me on my scooter. It's how I am most comfortable. I am a bit of a cynic, skeptical, and probably trust myself more then I should while I question too hard other things.

So I will get out of my own way and have as much fun and adventure as I can on my scooter. And taking MSF does sound like fun, and an adventure!

I will learn how to operate a MC. That alone is worth the price of admission.

[rsrider]

I wonder if anyone offers scooter track days? haha, that would be nuts.

Here are a bunch of different riding tips: http://www.sportrider.com/motorcycle_ri ... index.html

just look through them and find the ones that interest you and you feel may be relevant to scooter riding.

There are so may sources out there today to help you cope with riding on the street, safely. There are no guarantees that they will help you when things go bad for you, but they prevent you from getting to the "bad" situations in the first place. If you are aware of the situation around you, you can usually make the proper adjustments to avoid any problems before they arise. Fore knowledge about what you may expect to encounter on the road and how to counter the dangers, will prevent 99% of possible accidents. You can never be 100% when you're out on the roads on two wheels, surrounded by traffic. But there is also no inevitability that you will be in an accident. Many people, including myself, have been riding two wheels for decades and have never had an accident. I've even been struck by deer, twice (killing one), and have managed to keep the bike up. YMMV

[ericalm]

I wonder if anyone offers scooter track days? haha, that would be nuts.

Indeed, they do. Maybe not scooter-only, but track days when you can bring your scoot out.