Gearing: Horsepower's Better Half

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Gearing: Horsepower's Better Half

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

Not completely devoted to scooters, but a good read for the aspiring gear heads out there.

When it comes to performance, everyone’s familiar with the all-mighty horsepower rating; but horsepower is only half of the acceleration story. The other half is gearing, and it works like this: The engine makes a specific amount of horsepower at the crankshaft. That’s nice and all, but how it’s delivered to the rear wheel is dependent upon the transmission and final drive gears. By “how” it’s delivered, I mean there’s a trade off between top speed and acceleration that can be biased in either direction by changing gear ratios. For example; 1st gear provides the lowest top speed, but the highest acceleration rate. Inversely; top gear provides the highest top speed, but the lowest acceleration rate. In layman’s terms: Low gears are strong but slow; high gears are weak but fast; but each uses the same amount of horsepower.

“Gear ratio” refers to the rate that one gear is turning VS the rate another gear is turning. We could compare rotations of the crankshaft, gears in the transmission, final drive gears, etc. It’s really just a relative measurement. So, how exactly do lower gear ratios make more torque than higher ones? Well, there’s a couple of things to look at. Glance at the animation below for visual reference. Say the small front gear is the input gear, and the large rear gear is the output gear. For starters, a small gear has more leverage from its center than a large one, and a large gear has more leverage from its outside than a smaller one, and the ratio between them creates a torque-multiplication effect. Another thing to note is that it also adds RPM’s at any given speed to increase power (up to peak horsepower at least, but I’ll cover shift points below).

Image

What about the transmission? How do you accelerate the hardest? Let's look at this chart of torque per gear below (for reference, this is from a car). The 1st column of data is engine torque alone. The stars denote peak torque and peak horsepower as reference points. The other columns are measuring torque output from the transmission. Notice the gear ratios are torque multipliers for the engine. To make things perfectly even, you'd need a gear ratio of 1:1 (hence why any gear with a ratio of 1:1 or higher is considered "overdrive"). The reason 1st gear has a slower top speed but a heck of a lot more acceleration is because it has so much lower of a gear ratio. Low gears have the torque to get a vehicle moving from a stop; high gears can afford to sacrifice torque to hold a higher cruising speed.

Code: Select all

       Engine     Transmission output torque (ft-lb):
       Torque      1st     2nd     3rd     4th     5th
 RPM  &#40;ft-lb&#41;     3.54    2.13    1.36    1.03    0.72  <- gear ratio
----  -------     ----    ----    ----    ----    ----
1000       50      177     107      68      52      36
1500       65      230     138      88      67      47
2000       80      283     170     109      82      58
2500       92      326     196     125      95      66
3000      104      368     222     141     107      75
3500      114      404     243     155     117      82
4000      120      425     256     163     124      86
4500      125      443     266     170     129      90
5000      130      460     277     177     134      94
5500*     133      471     283     181     137      96
6000      130      460     277     177     134      94
6500*     122      432     260     166     126      88
7000      110      389     234     150     113      79
The most critical performance observation to note though is that any RPM, including redline, produces more power at the rear wheel in any particular gear than upshifting to a higher gear. Now, this happens to be the case for this particular vehicle, but the optimal shift point for acceleration is whenever upshifting yields more horsepower than staying in the current gear since horsepower, in a way, has gearing already factored into the eqaution. Therefore, for any given road speed, peak horsepower is the maximum amount of pull for the vehicle. In the case of a CVT, the variator holding the engine speed at this RPM will continuously provide the strongest acceleration.

(I have made corrections to this post as it's been discussed, so if the comments in the thread seem to not make sense, that's my fault and not the members of MB.)
Last edited by Rusty Shackleford on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 10 times in total.
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

To quote my favorite Foo Fighters song... "I'll stick around". The above is another write-up, motivated by those who sent kind words my way. After writing this, I suddenly have the urge to test drive a Stella. :wink:
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

Good write up. This only applies to a CVT in practice, but your ability to control it is very limited. There is a fine art to working the throttle to your advantage on a CVT scoot and as people ride more and learn their scoot's behaviors, they start to figure it out.

For instance, going WOT is almost never the best way to accelerate or achieve top speed with a CVT unless you're already approaching top speed.

For the Stella, well, it's a small engine with limited power and not yet tuned and modded for high performance. Can only eke so much out of it. (Also, no tach!)

I went on a group ride this weekend and though I knew the approximate route, I hadn't looked at the particulars. I was on the Stella (LX is getting a brake job, PX is a paperweight that makes smoke) and hadn't noticed that we were going up one road I've ridden in the past instead of down, true direction I usually ride that one. It's a steep incline over a couple miles, from beach to canyon. Sadly, the bottom is a stop, right at the beach, no way to get a running start. It's full stop direct to steep crawl up.

The Stella bogged and struggled. (Even the larger and auto scooters were slowing with this challenge, but not to the degree I was. The only one having as much difficulty was a BMS Heritage.) At some point, I considered dropping into 2nd but was concerned about redlining all the way up a hill like that.

What to do? Thinking I need a taller gear set.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

The control is very limited with a CVT, correct. "Gearing" (changing roller weights/contra spring) changes the cruising RPM and gear ratio in addition to the accelerating RPM. There's no way to vary it manually. This is why I just ended up going with slightly lighter Dr Pulley sliders in the Buddy 125. As for climbing hills on a manual, drop to a lower gear. You may run higher RPM's but you need the mechanical advantage. It's better for the engine than lugging it. If you climb a lot, you'll actually need a lower gear set. Per the animation above, this will reduce the stress on the drive and driven gears and give you more torque to the rear wheel. On a side note, yes, I would love to redline a Stella through all the gears and see what it did! :atgatt:
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
thatvwbusguy
Member
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:35 am
Location: Newmarket, NH
Contact:

Post by thatvwbusguy »

Talk about timing! I just finished installing a new set of 12T/40 gears in my Zuma 125 about an hour ago. The new gears add almost 5MPH to my top speed and only cost me a slight loss of acceleration after re-tuning my CVT.

Unfortunately, my connection in Taiwan says that there are no readily available aftermarket gearsets for the PGO/Genuine lineup, since they are primarily produced for export. He said he will keep an eye out for anything new that comes to market for us and will see if he can identify any other brands that may use similar gears that will swap in.

JB
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.


Jay Brown
Newmarket, NH

Scooter Accessories:
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonhe ... oter-stuff
User avatar
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by BuddyRaton »

Yes, lugging an engine is one of the wort things you can do to it. It wil lget uber hot uber fast!

The other factor that has to be taken into consideration is the engine torque which is related to hp...but they are not kissing cousins!

Power, the rate of doing work (work= force x distance) depends on torque and rpms

Torque and rpms are engine factors that can be measured; horsepower is a calculated value HP = torque x rpm / 5252


So why does any of this matter? Well for climbing hills you would want a motor with higher torque...that would result in more hp at lower rpm...lower torque with high rpms gives you more of a street racer set up...more hp at higher rpms

Gearing comes into play in how you want to use the hp your motor is producing.

This is where the 2T tuners have fun! What kit and what set up to run?

A couple of examples...my 67 GT is a street racer..Malossi 166 top end that loves the high revs (7-9k rpm) I also run a P200 tree and clutch in that motor (gearing) to take advantage of the high rev hp.

Now the P200 motor that I am building is for touring. Pinasco top end to 215cc, ported, long stroke crank I'll probably run that at 6k rpm max. It's not going to be a light to light racer...but I'm figuring I'll be able to get 25-27 hp out of it and be able to climb hills no problem and cruise at 70 mph...it will just take a little longer to get there!

Of course there are linitations on everything...and in many ways there are more with a 4T than a 2T. At high rpms valves need time to close before the piston comes back up, with both types the crank starts to stretch changing the squish, bearings get hot etc etc.

I fully agree that gearing is important, but before starting mods it is always important to ask that first question...what do I want to get out of it? Then figure out what motor and tranny combination is going to work to get you there.

Oh yeah....then you gotta build it! :mrgreen:
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

thatvwbusguy wrote:Talk about timing! I just finished installing a new set of 12T/40 gears in my Zuma 125 about an hour ago. The new gears add almost 5MPH to my top speed and only cost me a slight loss of acceleration after re-tuning my CVT...
I may be misunderstanding, but if you have a CVT, what "gears" are you referring to?
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
spr0k3t
Member
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Kansas City

Post by spr0k3t »

Glad you're staying. The write ups have been very useful to me. Keep it up.
User avatar
spr0k3t
Member
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:14 am
Location: Kansas City

Post by spr0k3t »

Rusty Shackleford wrote:
thatvwbusguy wrote:Talk about timing! I just finished installing a new set of 12T/40 gears in my Zuma 125 about an hour ago. The new gears add almost 5MPH to my top speed and only cost me a slight loss of acceleration after re-tuning my CVT...
I may be misunderstanding, but if you have a CVT, what "gears" are you referring to?
I'm sure it is the final drive gears on the other side of wheel.
User avatar
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by BuddyRaton »

Rusty Shackleford wrote:
thatvwbusguy wrote:Talk about timing! I just finished installing a new set of 12T/40 gears in my Zuma 125 about an hour ago. The new gears add almost 5MPH to my top speed and only cost me a slight loss of acceleration after re-tuning my CVT...
I may be misunderstanding, but if you have a CVT, what "gears" are you referring to?
Yeah I was wondering that too
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

BuddyRaton wrote:...So why does any of this matter? Well for climbing hills you would want a motor with higher torque...that would result in more hp at lower rpm...lower torque with high rpms gives you more of a street racer set up...more hp at higher rpms...
That's exactly why I chose the CBR250R over the Ninja 250R!

As far as scooters go, I'm having trouble finding a dyno on the Buddy 125. It's torquey for a 125cc though. It does pretty well on hills for a CVT bike of that displacement. Better than I thought it would, at least. The 11g Dr Pulley sliders helped a little too.

spr0k3t wrote:Glad you're staying. The write ups have been very useful to me. Keep it up.
I have one on torque/horsepower that's pretty well documented, too. I did my best to put it in layman's terms.
Last edited by Rusty Shackleford on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
pumpedoncaffeine
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Post by pumpedoncaffeine »

Glad you are staying Rusty, I don't comment very often. However, I find your posts very interesting.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

spr0k3t wrote:
Rusty Shackleford wrote:
thatvwbusguy wrote:Talk about timing! I just finished installing a new set of 12T/40 gears in my Zuma 125 about an hour ago. The new gears add almost 5MPH to my top speed and only cost me a slight loss of acceleration after re-tuning my CVT...
I may be misunderstanding, but if you have a CVT, what "gears" are you referring to?
I'm sure it is the final drive gears on the other side of wheel.
Correct. The rear hub contains a gear set and these can be upgraded/changed if the right sizes are available.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
PeteH
Member
Posts: 2281
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:32 pm
Location: 3603mi SE of Dutch Harbor

Post by PeteH »

Hehehe - yeah, that place in the back of the scoot with the round spinny things that wear out our gear oil. :)

Seriously, though, there was a thread earlier this year (?) with a buncha photos, first-time poster, if I recall, who laid out the trials/tribulations/machining/grinding needed to install aftermarket (NCY, I think) rear gearsets.

[Edit: found it! It was eDan. Thread: viewtopic.php?t=17276 ]
Last edited by PeteH on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Feel da rhythm! Feel da rhyme! Get on up! It's Buddy Time!
User avatar
Rusty Shackleford
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Rusty Shackleford »

pumpedoncaffeine wrote:Glad you are staying Rusty, I don't comment very often. However, I find your posts very interesting.
Thanks! I love your username, BTW. I have a coffee problem. :oops:

ericalm wrote:
spr0k3t wrote:I'm sure it is the final drive gears on the other side of wheel.
Correct. The rear hub contains a gear set and these can be upgraded/changed if the right sizes are available.
That counts as my "learn something new every day". :o

PeteH wrote:...[Edit: found it! It was eDan. Thread: viewtopic.php?t=17276 ]
That saved a lot of time. The update in the OP discourages that mod, though. :?
C'mon, sko sko sko!
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

Rusty Shackleford wrote:
PeteH wrote:...[Edit: found it! It was eDan. Thread: viewtopic.php?t=17276 ]
That saved a lot of time. The update in the OP discourages that mod, though. :?
Well… One of the problems here was using "generic GY6" parts in a Buddy transmission. The Buddy is a PGO GY6 variant and not the same specs as many of the generic GY6s out there such as the Hondas and Chinese clones. (Even those have some variety.)

There is not, at the moment, a gear kit made for the Buddy (AFAIK). But I'm looking out for one because I believe something may be out there… the white whale…
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
Post Reply