Beyond the Ninjette: More small motorcycles

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:39 am

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/10/ ... -duke-390/

I should say "small but mighty." This should not be a beginner's first motorcycle. If the HP figure is correct, it makes as much as my 800cc twin.

KTMs tend toward the extreme and besides, as one of the commentors stated, they have a less-than-desirable dealer network. Hopefully this one will be affordable since it's made in India.

I think the thing to celebrate here is that there are beginning to be small displacement motorcycles that an adult can own and not feel a need to "upgrade" to something bigger.

This same engine tech and that in the Honda CBR250R could certainly be applied to scooter engines as well, I think.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:31 am

There's a rumor of a Triumph Tiger Cub resurrected in some form as a 250 or 250cc bike. That would be HOT. Sadly, it may just be meant for Asian markets and Europe.

phatch · Post by **phatch** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:49 am

Southerner wrote:http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/10/ ... -duke-390/

I like everything about it... not sure about the orange though.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:21 pm

I believe that's KTM's signature color but surely there will be some other choices.

Eric, I had read that about the Triumph also. Who knows? The little Honda is doing well, as has the Ninja 250 for many years.

It just makes sense that in a depressed economy, manufacturers can't sell many big-buck bikes but should find a market for smaller, less expensive machines.

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:25 pm

Southerner wrote:It just makes sense that in a depressed economy, manufacturers can't sell many big-buck bikes but should find a market for smaller, less expensive machines.

~~
I think that's a big reason the CBR250 came out. Lots of people looking for fuel efficient options. Throw in that it's on a good looking motorcycle, and cheap, and you have selling points for many different people.

Now we need Suzuki and Yamaha to get in the game. Suzuki should take their GS500 line, update it, and drop it by 200cc's. That'd be nice.

~~

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:50 pm

Sadly, the GS500 recently exited the scene and nobody noticed. Suzuki is the smallest of the Big Four and is said to have been particularly hard-hit by the downturn. Don't know about their R&D budget but they already have the TU250 which is a pretty straightforward basic bike.

What many people would really like to see is the S40 650 single re-done as a classic Brit single a la the Royal Enfield. Beginners shouldn't be scared off by the large displacement since it's a pussycat.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:12 pm

Southerner wrote:What many people would really like to see is the S40 650 single re-done as a classic Brit single a la the Royal Enfield. Beginners shouldn't be scared off by the large displacement since it's a pussycat.

Dauntless did a nice custom job a while back with an S40 fitted with a number of Enfield parts and a Globe sidecar. Attractive rig.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Honda's CBR500?
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2012/ ... 00-family/

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:17 pm

Dooglas wrote:
Southerner wrote:What many people would really like to see is the S40 650 single re-done as a classic Brit single a la the Royal Enfield. Beginners shouldn't be scared off by the large displacement since it's a pussycat.
Dauntless did a nice custom job a while back with an S40 fitted with a number of Enfield parts and a Globe sidecar. Attractive rig.

Nicely done. The S40 should be a good sidecar tug. People say it runs out of gears before it runs out of power.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:22 pm

rsrider wrote:Honda's CBR500?
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2012/ ... 00-family/

Good to know. Real bikes for real people. Naturally the "naked" (the current word for a regular motorcycle) was hidden. The faux supersport is nice but I don't get that fish-like bodywork on the supposed dually. I kinda doubt we'll get that one because it's too close to the 700.

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:56 am

Southerner wrote:Sadly, the GS500 recently exited the scene and nobody noticed. ...

~~
That IS too bad. The full fairing version (GS500F) is one of the bikes I was hoping to get down the road. Looks awesome and is said be very reliable. Maybe a SV650 mini?

Hehe, another bike that looks nice. Standard type seating with sportbike flair.

CBR500 has me a bit intrigued, but I'm not a big fan of the 250. It's a solid commuter bike, but I don't think I'd ever buy a single cylinder engine ever again except maybe a PCX150 or a Majesty if I ever decide to buy another twist and go. On a motorcycle? Probably not.
~~

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:54 pm

Yes. A good, solid bike with a long history. I had a GS450S back in the 80s and it was great. Suzuki held out longer than the other Big 4.

A modern 500 parallel twin that is not overly heavy is about optimum for an average-sized adult for just about anything but long-distance touring. Even with 80s tech, the 450 I mentioned above regularly fetched me 60 mpg even though only air-cooled and of course, FI was all but unknown on MCs then.

As to singles, I think we may have to realign our thinking in the light of modern engineering. Think about the liquid-cooled, fuel injected singles in modern scoots. For example, I'm told the Suzuki 400 Burgman can hold 80 all day long without breaking a sweat and the Burgs are far from lightweight.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Southerner wrote:As to singles, I think we may have to realign our thinking in the light of modern engineering. Think about the liquid-cooled, fuel injected singles in modern scoots. For example, I'm told the Suzuki 400 Burgman can hold 80 all day long without breaking a sweat and the Burgs are far from lightweight.

Pretty much the same can be said of the large Piaggio liquid cooled singles. The more efficient cooling, plus fuel injection and electronic ignition, have redefined what is possible.

Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:22 pm

Dooglas wrote:Pretty much the same can be said of the large Piaggio liquid cooled singles. The more efficient cooling, plus fuel injection and electronic ignition, have redefined what is possible.

Not to mention some extremely high-tech cylinder head design!

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:37 pm

Plus they have begun to look at things from an engineering standpoint like how to reduce internal friction and where weight can be reduced as well. Very clever.

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:24 am

I'm still planing on the CBR250. It's so light, nimble and with that upright seating, it feels alot like my SH150. (just my opinion)

Second would have to be the Suzuki Tu250x. We just need more standards like that here in the US.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:40 am

scootavaran wrote:Second would have to be the Suzuki Tu250x. We just need more standards like that here in the US.

Seconded. I really like the look of the TU-250X. I have it on my radar, but I also have a '64 Honda Benly 90 and a '71 CB500F to build. At least the TU has the looks, along with "someone else's problem" warranty with an option for an extended warranty.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:43 am

don't forget these guys..........
http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/bikes/

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:53 am

rsrider wrote:don't forget these guys..........
http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/bikes/

Hmm, diggin' the look of the Ace.

Post by **illnoise** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:03 am

SYM Wolf 150. I love that thing.

Bb.

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:32 pm

illnoise wrote:SYM Wolf 150. I love that thing.

Bb.

I still love the SYM Wolf too. Moto Italia in Edwardsville IL has two and the owner is willing to knock $500 off the price as his customers are buying the Urals. Sooooooo tempting. Those little Wolfs are SWEET!!!!

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:51 am

They're maybe just a hair underpowered for anything other than city riding, but the the size and the styling are great, they're super fun to ride, and the price is pretty reasonable. I mean, for another grand you can get a Ninja, which is surely a much faster/sportier bike with a better reputation and parts/accessories supply, so it's probably a hard sell, but I know which one I'd rather ride. The jury's still out on Alliance, the importer, I think, they seem OK but even if there ends up being a problem with them, SYM is pretty right-on and a good dealer should be able to take care of you one way or another.

bigcanoe · Post by **bigcanoe** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:06 pm

az_slynch wrote:
scootavaran wrote:Second would have to be the Suzuki Tu250x. We just need more standards like that here in the US.
Seconded. I really like the look of the TU-250X. I have it on my radar, but I also have a '64 Honda Benly 90 and a '71 CB500F to build. At least the TU has the looks, along with "someone else's problem" warranty with an option for an extended warranty.

I had a TU250X, what a great bike. It was just a little down on power. A TU350X would have been PERFECT!

JAEGER · Post by **JAEGER** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:35 pm

az_slynch wrote:
rsrider wrote:don't forget these guys..........
http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/bikes/
Hmm, diggin' the look of the Ace.

Yeah, but I'm told the build quality is "meh."

:L

--Jaeger

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:55 pm

illnoise wrote:They're maybe just a hair underpowered for anything other than city riding, but the the size and the styling are great, they're super fun to ride, and the price is pretty reasonable. I mean, for another grand you can get a Ninja, which is surely a much faster/sportier bike with a better reputation and parts/accessories supply, so it's probably a hard sell, but I know which one I'd rather ride. The jury's still out on Alliance, the importer, I think, they seem OK but even if there ends up being a problem with them, SYM is pretty right-on and a good dealer should be able to take care of you one way or another.

I hear Alliance is better than Carter Bros. at this point with regards to parts, warranties and working with dealers. They may have managed to really turn themselves around. In fact, I hear the Lances coming out now (built by SYM in China) are actually pretty good quality.

JAEGER wrote:
az_slynch wrote:
rsrider wrote:don't forget these guys..........
http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/bikes/
Hmm, diggin' the look of the Ace.
Yeah, but I'm told the build quality is "meh."

Not "meh." Just "bad."

You can only make and sell a decent 250cc motorcycle for so cheap, especially if you're a startup boutique company with low production runs.

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:56 pm

Tristik wrote:...intrigued, but I'm not a big fan of the 250. It's a solid commuter bike, but I don't think I'd ever buy a single cylinder engine ever again except maybe a PCX150 or a Majesty if I ever decide to buy another twist and go. On a motorcycle? Probably not.

Sounds like you are over thumpers! Did you do the whole 12-step thumper program, perhaps starting with a Triumph Cub, Matchless or AJS G50, BSA Victor 400, BSA Gold Star 500, Yamaha XT500, Honda CB125, Yamaha SR500, Honda FT500, Yamaha SRX600, Honda GB500, Royal Enfield Bullet 500, and, finally, Buell Blast?

Lance Corona · Post by **Lance Corona** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Tristik wrote:Now we need Suzuki and Yamaha to get in the game.

Looks as though Yamaha already has something in the works.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/10/26/no ... -heats-up/

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:44 pm

ericalm wrote:...I hear the Lances coming out now (built by SYM in China) are actually pretty good quality.

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:29 pm

jrsjr wrote:Sounds like you are over thumpers! Did you do the whole 12-step thumper program, perhaps starting with a Triumph Cub, Matchless or AJS G50, BSA Victor 400, BSA Gold Star 500, Yamaha XT500, Honda CB125, Yamaha SR500, Honda FT500, Yamaha SRX600, Honda GB500, Royal Enfield Bullet 500, and, finally, Buell Blast?

~~
Hehe, no I didn't. But I've already had numb hands from my Blur on some longer rides and am looking into my first MC as a dual purpose communter/weekend joyrider. I've heard the little CBR is pretty well balanced, but still gets really buzzy at freeway speeds.

And a little YZF would be pretty cool, but it may be a bit too small depending on how it runs. I'd like these small bikes to be freeway usable (not just 'capable') and the 250's seem right on that line where some are, and some aren't.
~~

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:43 pm

jrsjr wrote:
ericalm wrote:...I hear the Lances coming out now (built by SYM in China) are actually pretty good quality.

Yeah, I know. They're selling well around here thanks to the price. The new Havana Classic is the Cali/Joker clone without the naked headset and I hear it handles much better with the nice, straight bars. (It still looks too much like Aprilia's closely-named Habana/Mojito). My local dealer says they've had very few issues with them. So… Hm!

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:11 pm

well i woul like to look beyond the Ninjette if a smaller mc is in order, but it just seems awfully good and well balanced from all reports

i like the Triumph Bonneville line up but have read some taller riders such as myself find it cramped as a daily rider. some have lowered the pegs, modified handlebars, etc. idk what that entails but it doesn't sound optimal. as a second bike, sure. but my first bike is one i will need to take each and every time and hopefully in reasonably good comfort

an yet others say its fine. but who knows? once an mc is finally chosen and actually purchased i will still ride my scooters a lot. probably more then the mc. so it doesn't have to be perfect. but something i can live with each and every time on and off, yes

i saw the new European Ninja 250 on youtube hitting 100mph with no trouble at all

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:47 pm

JHScoot wrote:...i will still ride my scooters a lot. probably more then the mc. so it doesn't have to be perfect. but something i can live with each and every time on and off, yes

That gives me an idea. If it doesn't need to be new and perfect, maybe think about a used bike like a used BMW F bike. This example is for sale for $5400 on CycleTrader.com down in San Clemente.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:51 am

I've seen BMW K75s and K100s from the late '80s-early '90s pretty cheap—$2K-$4K depending on mileage and condition. They were pretty divisive back in the day. Many BMW purists hated them the way some people hate modern scooters. Like a lot of things, I've come to appreciate the styling as I've aged. What once looked overly sporty and modern (to me) now looks kind of reserved and elegant. I even like the fairings on the touring models. I pass a silver K75 (parked in front of a business) almost every day and always look for a "for sale" sign.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:25 am

ericalm wrote:I've seen BMW K75s and K100s from the late '80s-early '90s pretty cheap—$2K-$4K depending on mileage and condition. They were pretty divisive back in the day. Many BMW purists hated them the way some people hate modern scooters. Like a lot of things, I've come to appreciate the styling as I've aged. What once looked overly sporty and modern (to me) now looks kind of reserved and elegant. I even like the fairings on the touring models. I pass a silver K75 (parked in front of a business) almost every day and always look for a "for sale" sign.

Back in the early aughts, a friend purchased a rather worn red '85 K100RS. He didn't have a motorcycle license, but I did. When he became cash-strapped, I started buying it off of him. Amazing machine and fully worthy of the badging. It was a beast to me; the biggest thing I'd ridden before then was a SL350 K2. It made more power than my car and accelerated with brutal efficiency. I was intimidated by it and rode it with a healthy respect. The one time I really opened the taps on it was on I-565 late one night with no traffic around. Sure, a K bike isn't some racing super bike, but I was pretty impressed with how quickly it got me to near-double the speed limit and had throttle to spare. It was in that moment that I realized that an error at that speed would turn the bike and I into a long smear; I closed her down gently, exited the highway and took the slow road home. Since then, my own rule is not to own a bike with more power than my car.

I'd get another K bike, though.

Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:49 am

ericalm wrote:I've seen BMW K75s and K100s from the late '80s-early '90s pretty cheap—$2K-$4K depending on mileage and condition.

The K75s were really special machines. Read up on the history of K75 production and you'll discover that they were in some ways a product of the Cold War era economics, cheap East German labor especially. The economics of the K75 fell along with The Wall. I always liked the K75S model best of all the flying bricks. However, if you're serious about buying used, get somebody to check the bike out thoroughly as BMW repairs can get expensive in a hurry.

Sign Me,
Been There, Done That, Not Once, but Twice.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:54 am

jrsjr wrote:
ericalm wrote:I've seen BMW K75s and K100s from the late '80s-early '90s pretty cheap—$2K-$4K depending on mileage and condition.
The K75s were really special machines. Read up on the history of K75 production and you'll discover that they were in some ways a product of the Cold War era economics, cheap East German labor especially. The economics of the K75 fell along with The Wall. I always liked the K75S model best of all the flying bricks. However, if you're serious about buying used, get somebody to check the bike out thoroughly as BMW repairs can get expensive in a hurry.

Sign Me,
Been There, Done That, Not Once, but Twice.

An import bike with a cult following that is expensive to maintain?!?! But, they get good gas mileage? Don't you just fill it and go?

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:42 am

FWIW, the Honda CBR250R gets 70mpg and does 90mph. Any word on whether the 500 family will be released in the states?

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:05 am

I sure hope so. The CB500X looks like one of those perfect everyday bikes. Like baby brother to the NC700X which I like very much. Sporty without the aggressive stance and in the perfect CC area for good mpg and power.

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:29 am

Agreed. I imagine the 500's would have a <= 6sec 0-60 or and get >= 60mpg. If so, I'll be 1st in line. I've loved the 250R so far. I just wish Honda released more small bikes in the US like they do elsewhere. Efficient 400cc-500cc street bikes are so practical. I like the Ninja 300, but would rather see if we'll get the Hondas.

Lance Corona · Post by **Lance Corona** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:25 pm

Honda's NC700X looks very promising in this economic climax as well. A middle size MC that gets scooter mpg is pretty impressive. I'm not crazy about the looks but it looks to be a great all-round performer.

http://www.cycleworld.com/tag/nc700x/

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:42 pm

Yeah, I went and sat on the NC700X at the local Honda dealer. It's really comfortable. It's tall though, being an adventure bike cross over. There's an NC700S that's a "naked" street version that sits a little lower and looks more like the SV650, but it's not available in the US (yet). Supposedly the NC family gets around 62mpg, but I've found Honda's EPA estimates to be pretty optimistic. They quoted 77mpg on my 250R and I usually get 68mpg. Others have reported upper 70's though, but they likely ride at lower speeds. Wind drag is hell on small engines.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:49 pm

Lance Corona wrote:Honda's NC700X looks very promising in this economic climax as well. A middle size MC that gets scooter mpg is pretty impressive. I'm not crazy about the looks but it looks to be a great all-round performer.

Europe gets the 700 Honda as a maxi-scooter. Maybe we will later if Honda is pleased with sales of the current US 700 models. (the old Silverwing design is getting pretty long in the tooth

)

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:54 pm

jrsjr wrote:Sounds like you are over thumpers! Did you do the whole 12-step thumper program, perhaps starting with a Triumph Cub, Matchless or AJS G50, BSA Victor 400, BSA Gold Star 500, Yamaha XT500, Honda CB125, Yamaha SR500, Honda FT500, Yamaha SRX600, Honda GB500, Royal Enfield Bullet 500, and, finally, Buell Blast?

How could anyone go through a 12-step thumper program without ever riding an S40? Heck, between an S40 and a BV 350, I spend most of my time on thumpers these days (even if they don't thump

). I'm really not seeing any reason to move to something else - though Honda might be able to tempt me with that Integra.

Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:56 pm

Dooglas wrote:
jrsjr wrote:Sounds like you are over thumpers! Did you do the whole 12-step thumper program, perhaps starting with a Triumph Cub, Matchless or AJS G50, BSA Victor 400, BSA Gold Star 500, Yamaha XT500, Honda CB125, Yamaha SR500, Honda FT500, Yamaha SRX600, Honda GB500, Royal Enfield Bullet 500, and, finally, Buell Blast?
How could anyone go through a 12-step thumper program without ever riding an S40?

I knew I was forgetting something!

Lance Corona · Post by **Lance Corona** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:44 pm

Rusty Shackleford wrote:Yeah, I went and sat on the NC700X at the local Honda dealer. It's really comfortable. It's tall though, being an adventure bike cross over. There's an NC700S that's a "naked" street version that sits a little lower and looks more like the SV650, but it's not available in the US (yet). Supposedly the NC family gets around 62mpg, but I've found Honda's EPA estimates to be pretty optimistic. They quoted 77mpg on my 250R and I usually get 68mpg. Others have reported upper 70's though, but they likely ride at lower speeds. Wind drag is hell on small engines.

Cycle World quote from their road test:

"As described in the “NC700X: Fuel-Efficiency Game-Changer” sidebar, one of the greatest benefits of this low-revving, undersquare engine design is excellent fuel economy. At the end of a spirited day of riding on the NC, we recorded 59 mpg, a bit short of Honda’s 64-mpg claims but still impressive considering the throttle had been pinned wide-open quite a bit of the time. Riding more sedately but still with a touch of sportiness, we got 73 mpg on our very first attempt at a “good” number. If the 700X is ridden conservatively, 80 mpg is not out of the question—impressive by any standards."

No bad for a bike weighing in @ 474 (full tank). This is how they do it.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/10/18/ho ... e-changer/

I'm looking forward to seeing how this "Game Changer" may influence the industry.

Lance Corona · Post by **Lance Corona** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:50 pm

Dooglas wrote:
Lance Corona wrote:Honda's NC700X looks very promising in this economic climax as well. A middle size MC that gets scooter mpg is pretty impressive. I'm not crazy about the looks but it looks to be a great all-round performer.
Europe gets the 700 Honda as a maxi-scooter. Maybe we will later if Honda is pleased with sales of the current US 700 models. (the old Silverwing design is getting pretty long in the tooth )

Hopefully!

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:58 pm

One of our local guys just bought the NC700X. He is most ecstatic about it. He says the motor is a Honda Fit engine cut in half.

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:59 pm

Lance Corona wrote:"As described in the “NC700X: Fuel-Efficiency Game-Changer” sidebar, one of the greatest benefits of this low-revving, undersquare engine design is excellent fuel economy. At the end of a spirited day of riding on the NC, we recorded 59 mpg, a bit short of Honda’s 64-mpg claims but still impressive considering the throttle had been pinned wide-open quite a bit of the time. Riding more sedately but still with a touch of sportiness, we got 73 mpg on our very first attempt at a “good” number. If the 700X is ridden conservatively, 80 mpg is not out of the question—impressive by any standards."

...and boom goes the dynamite. I'm planning on the "S" version being my next bike, but I'm a tall guy, so I'm not beyond the "X" adventure bike either. I enjoy sport riding, but am a commuter most of my miles. Either would do really well for that. If it's turning over 60mpg with that kind of torque, I'm sold. Thanks for sharing.

Lance Corona · Post by **Lance Corona** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:13 pm

PeteH wrote:One of our local guys just bought the NC700X. He is most ecstatic about it. He says the motor is a Honda Fit engine cut in half.

Yeah, the Fit's inline-4 was the inspiration for the NC700's engine.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Speaking of which (sort of), I finally saw and rode with (but didn't ride) a Honda DN1.

While it certainly bridges the scooter/motorcycle gap, I had to wonder if it was too much of both but not enough of either. The ergonomics are really weird. Upright riding position, but handlebars swept back. You could lean over the tank, but it's a short bike and for some the position would be awkward.

A really interesting machine; the owner loves it. Clearly not for me!

Modern Buddy

Beyond the Ninjette: More small motorcycles

Beyond the Ninjette: More small motorcycles

Re: Beyond the Ninjette: More small motorcycles