NSR: Motor Trend Car of the Year

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Rob
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NSR: Motor Trend Car of the Year

Post by Rob »

The Tesla Model S.

An American vehicle ... and it's electric!

Great looking vehicle ... fast/powerful ... 3.9 to 60 mph.

Now if I only had $58K to burn.

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car ... Y_TSL_1112

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Post by JHScoot »

motortrend must be desperate for readership / attentiion
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Post by gr8dog »

Yikes! Expensive. The car of the year should be accessible to the average person. Seems like a PC motivated decision to me. But what do I know, I keep fixing my '96 Maxima.
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Post by neotrotsky »

Dunno why this would make MT look "Desperate". I do like where Tesla is going, and they are on the road to be paid up in full on their loans next quarter. They've come a LONG way and are one of the only truly viable electric auto manufactures with a product that doesn't suck.

As for "affordable", many cars that run by motor trend aren't affordable and aren't far from the Tesla's asking price. Ever priced out a well equipped Ford F150? They may start at $25k, but midrange is $37k. To get the Limited top end, you're paying $53,000 BEFORE taxes and fees. Or how about a top of the line Honda Accord? The Accord with the Touring option is around $34k, and out the door you're looking at around $38k probably. Both cars are on top buy lists for many magazines and are well out of reach for the average American family.

As for "affordable" cars, there really isn't anything out there that is HONESTLY under $20k brand new. Hyundai pretty much eliminated the Accent as affordable and Kia even moved it' s Rio upmarket. For all the complaining the auto company makes about there being no market, they sure keep pricing themselves out of the "economy" end because the profit margins aren't high enough. The only current car out there that is actually affordable (by not costing an entire year's wages) is the Honda Fit, Smart and the Fiat 500. The rest add up options VERY quick and get you north of 25k in a hurry

Besides, the biggest news is Tesla's Model X: A 5 door compact that they vow to be over 200mile range and under $25k. That makes it a relative bargain compared to the two above and gives the Toyota Camry a run for it's money. I'll be honest: Me and my wife are actually thinking about saving the bucks for a model X when the good ole SUV bows out in a year or two (it does have 140k miles, with 2k miles a month being added on). It's a great truck, but physics aren't forgiving.
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Post by Robbie »

Considering the technology involved, I don't consider it that expensive and as neotrosky stated, not that far from mainstream full feature automobiles.

I kindof get a charge (pun intended) with all the hullabalo relative to electrics and hybrids.

I try to keep in mind that these are currently (ha) more of a alternative type vehicle, more geared toward those who believe operating one may reduce their personal impact on the environment.
But we have to keep in mind that we are only moving the pollution, (if that is what one wishes to call it), to someone elses back yard (the power station making the electricity).
Also, few take into account the amount of energy required to create the battery systems and nobody has yet come up with a inexpense solution to dispose of the battery packages as they reach their service life.
The chemicals involved in the construction of those batteries means disposal will be very energy wasteful, and problematic.......heck, we still don't have a good method to dispose of a cell phone battery.

I have operated a Volt for several hundred miles and consider the True Hybrid propulsion system the more viable future. (True Hybrid meaning the engine is not directly driving the wheels, unlike a Prius that is a motor assisted engine)
At least this one can go great distances and is, IMO, two cars for the price of one (and a half).
I can operate it all week as a plug in, I can drive it to the west coast as a hybrid/gasoline vehicle.

Tesla is, IMO, the most viable full electric system out there with the most experience at it.....I can see why it won but I don't think it should be thrown into the same category as the IC engine vehicles.

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Post by stASH »

Neo,
Where did you see that the Model X is supposed to be under $25k? A quick search led me to believe that it will be priced similarly to the Model S, ie. starting at $60k.

Very cool nonetheless. It might take ten years, but I suspect they will become more accessible over time.
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Post by JHScoot »

Volt won in 2011

another "proof positive America can still build good things" that no one really wants, and the country isn't ready for. the "range" will not do for our infrastructure in most parts of the country. the average American cannot pay upwards of $60,000 for this:

For the typical daily diet of commuting and short trips (the average American drives about 40 miles a day), the Model S is a compelling proposition."

a good, practical, any situation car is car of the year, not a limited duty vehicle such as this. get lost / confused, change plans, gotta go faster and further on a charge? too bad!

Caprice Classic won in '91, PT Cruiser in '01 and the Caddy CTS just four or five years ago. not to mention the abysmal Chrysler 300 in 2005

i say "desperate" because MT has pandered over the years, fueled by advertising dollars and marketing hype. maybe that has changed, but this selection just has an air of "look at us outside the box" to it with no good reason

idk, guys. i am not into cars anymore. used to be, but they don't seem nearly as impressive to me as they used to. this thing i have been aware of since Dave Letterman bought one several years ago, and had the developers come on his show a couple times. i liked the car. that was several years ago. now here it is, and still no one has the "2012 MT COTY."

Camry Hybrid was COTY imo. if you want to "go green." tbo they all sound rather dull to me. even the Porches in the running...
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Post by Quo Vadimus »

JHScoot wrote:Volt won in 2011

The "range" will not do for our infrastructure in most parts of the country.

...not a limited duty vehicle such as this.
Never thought I'd hear this on a scooter forum...

Edit: Actually, I just realized, this is the same reasoning used when so many even-scooter-fans-and-riders hate on 50cc models so much. :?
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Post by Dooglas »

gr8dog wrote:Yikes! Expensive.
Tesla has developed cutting edge technology and has managed to cut the price IN HALF from it's predecessor model. Easy to see why MT was impressed by this model - and by the future of electric cars that will be fun to drive. To put the price of this model into some context, it is well below the price of those Cadillac Escalade SUVs that you see many of your suburban friends driving about. Sure, they didn't NEED to put that much money into a car, but they did. (and the chance of me getting excited about an Escalade is approximately zero - heck, people would think I was a...... - never mind :wink: )
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Post by neotrotsky »

stASH wrote:Neo,
Where did you see that the Model X is supposed to be under $25k? A quick search led me to believe that it will be priced similarly to the Model S, ie. starting at $60k.

Very cool nonetheless. It might take ten years, but I suspect they will become more accessible over time.
Those are the numbers the Tesla dealership in Scottsdale stated. That's their "Goal". They may be adding in rebate options or end game estimates. Hard to tell since they don't even have a model out yet.

And, in Arizona, an electric car is tempting simply because we oddly enough have some of the most of clean energy to burn. Nearly all of our power comes from hydroelectric or nuclear. Strange given Arizona government's distaste for anything science or ecology related :P
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Post by neotrotsky »

Quo Vadimus wrote:
JHScoot wrote:Volt won in 2011

The "range" will not do for our infrastructure in most parts of the country.

...not a limited duty vehicle such as this.
Never thought I'd hear this on a scooter forum...

Edit: Actually, I just realized, this is the same reasoning used when so many even-scooter-fans-and-riders hate on 50cc models so much. :?
Even at pessimistic estimates of 238 mile range of HARD driving and "conservative" estimates at 300 mile ranges... do you REALLY burn 230 miles a day in fuel? Do most Americans? Are we really spending 5 hours a day driving on average? No. I see PLENTY of people who shell out 30 to 60k for a car they drive MAYBE 10-20 miles a day. Then again many Americans are convinced that if they cannot get 1000 mile ranges on electric cars, they're all "toys".

Food for thought: The Chrysler 300, a car that would fit in as a competitor with a V8 (the best they have to match the torque of electric drive) and about the same size has a 19 gallon tank. EPA and Reviewer averages put the fuel economy combine at 16.6mpg. That comes out to about 315 miles to a tank. Do Chrysler owners have massive range anxiety? Are they running around with jerry cans stashed in the trunks?

Tesla, believe it or not, is almost on par with big V8 IC sedans
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Post by neotrotsky »

And, here's something interesting: Chevy is letting loose the Spark EV, full electric auto. They're estimating around $28k before incentives, which would put it just around the magic $20k mark. No word on range yet, but still, it's affordable and not Tesla.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/13/prod ... but-in-la/
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Post by Quo Vadimus »

Neo, I think the argument you'll get is that the Chrysler takes eight minutes to refuel whereas an electric car takes hours. This argument is valid unless someone invents some way to pay a nominal fee to use a different vehicle for a limited amount of time when a consumer has out of the ordinary needs for travel or utility.... :D
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Post by Alb brajn »

The fueling pattern for an electric car is very different though.

A gasoline car cannot be fueled up at home but rather a gas station. People who drive one drive for a week or so until they are low and fill up in a few minutes. Then they are good to go for another week.

On the other hand an electric car is filled up at home over night. Every morning is started with a full range. This means you shouldnt have the "oh crap I need to fill up" issue unless you have driven a whole lot that day. If you find you drive that much in a day all the time you are probably not in the target market for electrics.
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Post by neotrotsky »

Alb brajn wrote:The fueling pattern for an electric car is very different though.

A gasoline car cannot be fueled up at home but rather a gas station. People who drive one drive for a week or so until they are low and fill up in a few minutes. Then they are good to go for another week.

On the other hand an electric car is filled up at home over night. Every morning is started with a full range. This means you shouldnt have the "oh crap I need to fill up" issue unless you have driven a whole lot that day. If you find you drive that much in a day all the time you are probably not in the target market for electrics.
This is very true, and there are many companies scrambling to implement wireless charging, much like some cell phones have now. Just park the car in the garage, and it automatically tops off. No need to plug in!
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Post by mhardgrove »

I'm glad that the Tesla got car of the year! I know that there are limitations to the electric car at this point, HOWEVER, we must start somewhere! We cannot go on driving huge vehicles that get <20mpg, something must give considering many experts predict that we have reached the peak of oil.

Thats my 2 cents.
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Post by Southerner »

I agree that this is an avenue that must be explored. As to pollution, We are trying hard to move away from coal, which is the worst polluter among power plants and even then, there is cleaner coal tech in the pipeline. It would be much easier to control pollution at one big point than thousands of small ones.

Yes, the limitations are still there. Full electrics have limited range and a long refueling time. That's not going to change very soon. Still, the electric motor is nothing new and has been quite efficient long before now. The batteries are still the place that needs the most development.

And you must always remember to take those maximum range figures with a LARGE grain of salt. Those are under ideal conditions and the actual range will inevitably be much less.

There are other considerations. For example, consider that you are stuck in a traffic jam in LA or ATL. So you're not wasting any energy idling. But it's 110 degrees and you have to run the air conditioner or swelter. That's got to eat into your battery. And that's just one example.

As to hybrids, I do like the direction the Volt is going. I agree with defining it as a true hybrid. But its actual mileage, all things considered, has been calculated by the magazines as really around 40mpg. Good but not great. There are conventional cars that can do about as well. I consider it a work in progress and hope they continue. It's not nearly as ubiquitous as the Prius but I do see more and more of them on the road.

Between the Fiat 500 and the Fit, I would buy the Fiat for the fun factor but the Fit far and away makes the best use of its interior space.


The new Tesla is beautiful and not a bad choice for those who have the disposable income available. If you can spend 58k for a car, you don't have to be entirely practical. If this price point is what it takes for the electric car to survive and improve, said improvements will eventually make it to the lower economic tiers. Be patient.
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Post by ericalm »

Saw one of these on the road last week. A very nice-looking car.

People have all sorts of complaints about current electrics, but without these we will never get to where we want to be with electric and other alternative fuel vehicles. No one will spend the time to create the "perfect" solution without intermediate technologies such as this and hybrids that continue to prove market demand and viability of such things. And having these on the road helps improve the design, technology and infrastructures.

Embrace it!
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Post by agrogod »

Image

Any one remember when these cost $4,000 - $10,000 dollars brand new. As with the new electric cars, starting high, working out bugs, becomes mainstream, prices eventually level out. I just want to know where my flying car (or scooter) is?
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Post by Lostmycage »

If I had the budget for it, I'd totally buy a Telsa! I need something with a bit more utility to it, so I'm just thankful for the folks that have helped push Telsa out of the startup red and set them up to make my first electric car... whatever that's going to be.

I'm still hoping for an electric heavy duty pickup.
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Post by Rob »

ericalm wrote:People have all sorts of complaints about current electrics, but without these we will never get to where we want to be with electric and other alternative fuel vehicles. No one will spend the time to create the "perfect" solution without intermediate technologies such as this and hybrids that continue to prove market demand and viability of such things. And having these on the road helps improve the design, technology and infrastructures.

Embrace it!
Agreed! One frequent comment at work regarding the practicality of electrics is the range limitations for driving vacations ... typically in the 400 - 100 mile range. My response is always "RENT" for those occasions.

One person did mention something I hadn't considered though. I know there is some trade off with engine vs. power generation emissions and pollution, but this person mentioned that the process of the making the batteries themselves produces signficant pollution and toxic waste. Most if not all of this occurs in other countries. I'm not sure to what degree "significant" is, but I'll likely do a little google research.

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Post by Southerner »

Not only in producing the batteries but also of disposing of/recycling them when they are spent. Also you should know that if your batteries play out and you still own the car, the cost of replacing them will be many thousands of dollars, possibly more than the remaining value of the car at that point. Even if you sell the car before that time, it is expected to affect the resale value.

There just aren't any perfect solutions. As usual, we will have to find what works for us in our individual cases.
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Post by rsrider »

The Ford Fiesta 3 cyl., a car for the unwashed, could win a few COTY awards. 40+ mpg and can actually merge onto freeway traffic without requiring the operator to wear a diaper. I'd buy a Volt if I had any money, I like it. But my first choice would be the Cadillac CTS-V Wagon........................After the Vespa GTS 300 SS SE.......if I had monies :(
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Post by CROSSBOLT »

I saw an early Tesla on Discovery a few years ago and was impressed both with the car and the gutsy people that made it. Motor Trend giving an award only impresses some of the public. I, on the other hand, (big, fat ego!) figured out (guessed) MT "sells" these awards. Why? Why do I think that? Too many "cars of the year" even with different models. Due to advanced age, I remember years ago when there was ONE car of the year.......

I took a JD Power survey after I bought a Subaru Forester in '99. The car was great, the survey sucked. It was pages of "rigged" questions arranged to produce a result the manufacturer wanted. JD Power is a joke like MT, in my opinion.

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Post by neotrotsky »

CROSSBOLT wrote:I saw an early Tesla on Discovery a few years ago and was impressed both with the car and the gutsy people that made it. Motor Trend giving an award only impresses some of the public. I, on the other hand, (big, fat ego!) figured out (guessed) MT "sells" these awards. Why? Why do I think that? Too many "cars of the year" even with different models. Due to advanced age, I remember years ago when there was ONE car of the year.......

I took a JD Power survey after I bought a Subaru Forester in '99. The car was great, the survey sucked. It was pages of "rigged" questions arranged to produce a result the manufacturer wanted. JD Power is a joke like MT, in my opinion.

Karl
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Post by Rob »

CROSSBOLT wrote:I saw an early Tesla on Discovery a few years ago and was impressed both with the car and the gutsy people that made it. Motor Trend giving an award only impresses some of the public. I, on the other hand, (big, fat ego!) figured out (guessed) MT "sells" these awards. Why? Why do I think that? Too many "cars of the year" even with different models. Due to advanced age, I remember years ago when there was ONE car of the year.......

I took a JD Power survey after I bought a Subaru Forester in '99. The car was great, the survey sucked. It was pages of "rigged" questions arranged to produce a result the manufacturer wanted. JD Power is a joke like MT, in my opinion.

Karl
Well, I don't know about all of that and I'm indifferent towards the Motor Trend award. I just came across this article and thought the Tesla looked to be a very interesting product with a huge potential upside. I've done some google research since this was originally posted and I've seen virtually all positive comments and reviews, outside of the price tag.

Anything that spurs continued development and interest in alternative fuel products, I'm generally in favor of.

Rob
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Post by CROSSBOLT »

To be perfectly clear I do not care what reviews by MT, JD Power or Consumer reports say, the Tesla IS technologically advanced machine hitting the owner where it counts when he mashes the foot throttle! I cannot afford one but that does not exclude me from admiring. JD Power ignores any comments by owners as does Subaru. Soob makes a great car but there were minor issues with our Forester the company and the dealer ignored. My first car was a 1960 Peugeot 403 which I thought was great. Consumer Reports thought otherwise. That's where the "our team did not win" came into play. I thought then that CR should stick to toasters and wash machines and let R&T, Car & Driver, etc. handle evaluations. The Tesla is at the top of the heap in new tech and the genius at Tesla seems to have been able to do what the committees at GM and Ford have been unable to do. Sort of like the old Peugeot, I don't care what you think, I still love it! That goes with the Buddy 150 Pamplona and the Yager GT 200i, too!

Karl
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