DIY Performance Upgrades

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Korova
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DIY Performance Upgrades

Post by Korova »

I imagine this is a frequent topic, yet I can't find it asked and/or I'm terrible at google "site:" searches.

I'm a technical dude but am CLUELESS when it comes to vehicles of any nature. I'm afraid to touch my car most of the time (Isuzu Amigo) and my much simpler motorcycle (Honda Shadow VLX) I know how to um.. put air in the tires, check my oil, and lube the drive chain.

My Buddy 125 (Italia) seems like a much simpler machine, it's less expensive, and it's not necessary for my every day commute. Plus my wife has a pink one I can always embarrassingly use.

The point being is it seems like the perfect machine to LEARN stuff on.

What things can I do to my Buddy? Is it feasible to do the 161 kit myself? Are there great guides for stuff like this (I've waded through the tech guides here too) with lots of pictures?

What are some good things to start with? What should be best waited for until I'm more experienced? What should I never try to do myself?

And are there any good books you recommend? I have "the essential guide to motorcycle maintenance" and while it puts me to sleep, I'm trying to wade through it.

I keep my scooter in my garage and there is a decent amount of space to work with but I don't have like something to lift it off the ground or anything. If that matters.
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Post by Syd »

I think the most widely accepted, easiest performance enhancement is a mid-sized windscreen and weight loss.

What are you looking for? Quicker off the line? Higher top speed? Many MB members have done performance mods themselves with success, and I suspect that several have tried, but not come back to tell us of their failure.
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Korova
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Post by Korova »

Syd wrote:I think the most widely accepted, easiest performance enhancement is a mid-sized windscreen and weight loss.

What are you looking for? Quicker off the line? Higher top speed? Many MB members have done performance mods themselves with success, and I suspect that several have tried, but not come back to tell us of their failure.
I just want to do stuff to it. Maybe take it all apart and put it all back together again? Haha... Sorry for being so vague.

Top speed I'm not too concerned about, but yeah zippier would be nice. From what i've read I think the 161 kit with stock carb and exhaust accomplishes that, yes? But can I do it myself...

The only thing I'm hesitant on is the Prima exhaust because i'm not sure my cul-de-sac would appreciate it.

If you could suggest something relatively simple to swap out on the scooter, either for performance or just because the stock part sucks, what would it be?

My goal here is to learn and be productive at the same time (and hopefully find it fun). Doesn't matter if its time consuming or hard to do, as long as it can be done by a newb in his garage. :)

Whatever I do I will be sure, success or failure, to take lots of photos and post reports :D
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Post by skully93 »

the 161 kit seems to be more of a can of worms unless you have some experience. Some last a long time, some burn up, etc. Then there's tuning, adding the warp nacelles.....the list goes on :P.

In my fuelly signature there is a list of mods that were really simple:

cdi/coil-advances timing a bit and starts nicer on cold days.
slidedrs- a bit peppier off the line and smooth running
prima pipe- it's probably not as loud as your Honda. nice growl, nothing too obnoxious.

Other than that, I'd suggest just learning basic maintenance, since that will save you a lot over the life of a bike, especially if you have 2!
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Post by JohnKiniston »

If you want to tinker why not look at getting a Vintage 2-stroke bike to play with? A Large frame Vespa, or a Puch or Vespa moped would give you plenty of things to take apart, modify and re-install.
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Post by Syd »

Or, if you want to get some practice or learning before destroying the Buddy, look to see if a local JC still has a small engine course (mine diesn't). You can find old lawnmowers for next to nothing, and as long as you learn something, who cares what the grade you get is?
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Post by Throwback7R »

I will say if you understand Timing and can read the service manual and know how to use a Torque wrench. You can do the 161 kit. the hardest part was lining everything up for the timing.. " I am really handy. I work on cars for fun and even donate my time to help others out fixing their cars" I did the 171 kit on my 150 along with a new large valve head it took me longer to order the correct parts, Please use good NCY stuff, Than it did to install it. This is me and not you .. so read the service manual ..

Also, with a larger displacement you will also have to rejet your carb. " Really easy to do Just finding the correct main jet is the fun. if you like to tinker, you will have fun.

Hope this helps any questions feel free to PM me.
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Post by lovemysan »

Throwback7R wrote:I will say if you understand Timing and can read the service manual and know how to use a Torque wrench. You can do the 161 kit. the hardest part was lining everything up for the timing.. " I am really handy. I work on cars for fun and even donate my time to help others out fixing their cars" I did the 171 kit on my 150 along with a new large valve head it took me longer to order the correct parts, Please use good NCY stuff, Than it did to install it. This is me and not you .. so read the service manual ..

Also, with a larger displacement you will also have to rejet your carb. " Really easy to do Just finding the correct main jet is the fun. if you like to tinker, you will have fun.

Hope this helps any questions feel free to PM me.

The hardest part for me was trying to save time by doing the kit in frame. Then not having a ring compressor was also interesting. If your going to do the 161 kit you should also upgrade the head.
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Post by Throwback7R »

I did my kit in frame as well.. removing the studs was no fun. I loaded the piston in the sleeve leaving the wrist pin exposed and slid the sleeve and piston down the studs.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Throwback7R wrote:I did my kit in frame as well.. removing the studs was no fun. I loaded the piston in the sleeve leaving the wrist pin exposed and slid the sleeve and piston down the studs.
No reason to remove the studs. Remove the lower shock bolt and let the frame lower down changing the angle of acces. Easy to get to everything in that position. I did not find any need for a ring compresor except for my fingers. Assembly 2T oil inside the cylinder (I know i know....it's a 4T...just lube it up) Squeeze the rings and slide the jug down.


For the OP...the suggestion of finding a vintage or classic 2T is a good one. Find a standard model...not a GS or SS...and parts relatively cheap and easily obtainable. My suggestion would be a Vespa P series.

Compared to the 4T motors they are veyr simple...no valves, no timing chain, no cam etc. For working on anything you are going to need to tool up.

If you really want to do something to your Buddy I would suggest starting with the variator and rollers. That's a pretty simple and straigt forward job with lots of information available.

Take your time...we all started with no knowledge. Know your limits and when to ask for help.

The hardest thing for me to learn was to realize when to stop for the day. I would get tired and frustrated and keep going and make mistakes. I have learned...pretty much...when to say "OK...thats it for today....I'll get back to it tomorrow"
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Post by BuddyRaton »

lovemysan wrote: The hardest part for me was trying to save time by doing the kit in frame. Then not having a ring compressor was also interesting. If your going to do the 161 kit you should also upgrade the head.

I'm still not sold on the big head. I have seen more problems with people using the big head than staying with the stock. I'm not saying it's bad...just that I have not been convinced that it is good.
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Post by Throwback7R »

I think the big valve head works great along with other mods, exhaust, larger intake and larger bore.. however by it's self provides little to no value.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Throwback7R wrote:I think the big valve head works great along with other mods, exhaust, larger intake and larger bore.. however by it's self provides little to no value.
I've done all that, air box, carb upsize, pipe...I'm just not sure I'm going to get much more out of the big head except heat, I gotta say I'm pretty happy with the stock head....that Buddy will wheelie out from under you if not careful!
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Post by Keys »

Put in a hemi.
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Post by Korova »

Okay so consensus is I should definitely start doing my own maintenance. I do have an old lawnmower already, so that would be a good place to start.

I wish I could find a vintage scooter for a good price, I will keep an eye out, but after a little looking I suspect the seattle area eats them up.

So here's my plan:

Change the oil on my buddy (never done it myself) and any of the other things the service manual says I might be due. but I may jump the gun and do some things anyways... (it's only got 1800 miles on it but it hasn't had an oil change under my ownership)

Change the oil on my motorcycle (It's not due, but again, it hasn't had one in a couple years). I've seen TONS of photos and help for how to do this on both machines and everyone always says its the first step to becoming a gear head....

Some of the things skully mentioned sound like good steps. I may even try the pipe if I'm feeling brave.

I think it needs new tires. I don't really want to wait until the tread is gone because I feel like the tires are really terrible. I remember posting and reading some things about the stock whitewalls a couple years ago. But i can't do tires myself so that's kind of pointless.

The 161 kit is probably too ambitious (as is the hemi, sorry ;) )

But yes, I just want to tinker. Honestly my Buddy doesn't get much use since I moved from CA to WA because I'm not really in an urban area anymore and it rains a lot here (which I like) and any chance of rain puts me on my bigger motorcycle. So that's why I feel I can probably afford to tinker on the Buddy.

It's so fun to ride I would love to make it faster. Also it has problems with hills. I imagine the 161 will help with that.

Thanks for the suggestions. Any more are welcome. I'm a total newb at this so pardon me if it's a vague or stupid sounding post.
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Post by Throwback7R »

rick71454
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Post by rick71454 »

Hello BuddyLand:

If I could do it over again......

I more likely stay with the stock size engine on my Buddy 125 rather than had the Prima 161cc Kit installed. I got stronger accelaration from stop to top speed, but the top speed was a few MPH less than stock. I was aiming for more top speed, not less top speed, and I got a big $bill out of it.

I wished I knew more before I did it. Best wishes to you......

Rick71454
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Post by thatvwbusguy »

Hi Rick,

There is no possible way that adding more displacement should result in lower top speed unless the BBK job was totally botched. Have you confirmed valve clearances, proper carb jetting etc?

What other mods have you done to your scooter? Anything to do with the drivetrain (clutch, variator, belt) can also have negative effects on top speed if not done properly.

If you had the work done at a shop, bring it back and let them know that it is slower than when it was 100% stock. They should be totally embarrassed that you lost top speed after adding 28% more displacement to your engine. I really hope that any shop that gets results like that would want a chance to make things right before the word gets out that their work is less than stellar...
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Post by Throwback7R »

I agree with VWbusguy it should have the same top speed with faster acceleration to get there. The large negative is worse MPG. The only real way to get a faster top speed is to change the gears.
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Post by Dooglas »

Sure, do your own maintenance. That is a great way to acquire some mechanical skills and begin to understand how your scooter and motorcycle work. After you have gone through the usual oil and oil filter changes, air filter cleaning, and preventative checks for loose fasteners - you could remove the inspection panel and take a look at your CVT belt. Blow out any dust, see that it does not look frayed or worn, and simply see what the CVT and clutch look like. At a later time, you can do your own belt and roller change. The other more complex job you can consider is disassembly and cleaning of your carb. I'd say don't do that just for the experience, wait until you actually have some kind of rough idle, loss of top end, or other issue that might be a dirty carb. There are plenty of more complex jobs to consider as you gain skill and understanding.

I'd hunt down a couple of manuals. Haynes makes a generic repair manual for small CVT scooters which I recommend (available on-line, Haynes also makes a repair manual for the Shadow BTW) and the shop manual for the 125 Buddy is available through this site. You will also need a few good tools if you don't already have them - box wrenches, sockets, etc. Don't start out by damaging or stripping fasteners using adjustable wrenches or pliers.

The suggestion of others that you change your own tire when the time comes is an excellent project. And vehicles should have an oil change once a year BTW :wink: , even if you have not accumulated the miles for the next service point. I think others have advised you correctly to set aside the idea of a 161 kit. It is both probably beyond your current skill level and really not an upgrade you need, so you would just be buying trouble with a now reliable ride.
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Post by Korova »

Excellent! This is exactly the kind of advice i was looking for. Thanks!

I noticed rollers were in the tune-up kit at scooterworks (which I stumbled upon looking for oil filters) and so I was actually reading about rollers last night (great demystified thread here and then the tech guide on how to change them.)

Taking your advice and examining / cleaning the CVT belt, I'd be able to look at the rollers and stuff too. Someone recommended to replace them every 1000 miles but that seems high? I suppose I can look for "flat spots"

I think steering away from "performance upgrades" for now and more towards maintenance and tuning might be the better strategy.

Thanks for the book suggestions too. I was looking over my generic motorcycle maintenance book last night but of course its for manual transmissions so there was nothing about rollers and stuff of course.

I'll grab that scooter one for sure.

I'll make sure that changing the oil of my bikes is done every spring then.
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cvt

Post by WileE »

I second messing around with the cvt. It's easier to understand and tinker with. Making changes to it can really affect performance.

Thinks to try: lighter/heavier rollers, sliding weights, dr pulley or performance variator, performance clutch, different springs.
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Post by rick71454 »

Hello Thatvwbusguy;Throback7r:

I agree with you both. The install of my BBK 161cc may have been less than what it is supposed to be.

My scooter was getting about 60MPG after my BBK 161cc install. After I enlarge the carb Main Jet stock from 92 to 112 and the stock valve clearance from .08mm to .10mm, I then got back to stock 80MPG. Not sure which or both did the MPG increase, since I did them both same time. I might change valve clearance back to .08mm and see what happens.

I received my Dr. Pulley stock size 18x14mm sliders and I will install them this weekend to see if top speed increases after my reset back to stock valve clearance trial runs.

I have yet to receive my NCY CDI, and I will install that after some trial runs after the valve reset and sliders install.

I will share with BuddyLand how my Buddy 125 does after these 3 individual things above.

Thanks
Rick





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject:

I agree with VWbusguy it should have the same top speed with faster acceleration to get there. The large negative is worse MPG. The only real way to get a faster top speed is to change the gears.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:52 am Post subject:

Hi Rick,

There is no possible way that adding more displacement should result in lower top speed unless the BBK job was totally botched. Have you confirmed valve clearances, proper carb jetting etc?

What other mods have you done to your scooter? Anything to do with the drivetrain (clutch, variator, belt) can also have negative effects on top speed if not done properly.

If you had the work done at a shop, bring it back and let them know that it is slower than when it was 100% stock. They should be totally embarrassed that you lost top speed after adding 28% more displacement to your engine. I really hope that any shop that gets results like that would want a chance to make things right before the word gets out that their work is less than stellar...
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Post by Korova »

I noticed in the oil change thread it describes how to change gear oil and engine oil.

Should I be doing the gear oil at least once a year too?
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Post by skully93 »

definitely. especially since it takes a very tiny amount.
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Post by lovemysan »

A 161cc kit does not need a 112 jet. The most I would recommend here at 600ft is a 102 and its still going to be rich. Mines running a 98 with a full stage 2 kit, debafffled pipe and de snorkeled air box. And its still rich. Your first tanks of fuel with the new kit WILL be lower because its breaking in.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Throwback7R wrote:I agree with VWbusguy it should have the same top speed with faster acceleration to get there. The large negative is worse MPG. The only real way to get a faster top speed is to change the gears.
I always thought that would be the case too. I haven't run mpgs for each since I really don't care but I can say that my 06 with the 161 kit and small windshield get better mph than my 08 stock 125 without windshield.

When we filled both of them up I needed a fuel stop BAD while the 161 still had a good amount of juice left.
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Post by NeoGenesisMax »

skully93 wrote:the 161 kit seems to be more of a can of worms unless you have some experience. Some last a long time, some burn up, etc. Then there's tuning, adding the warp nacelles.....the list goes on :P.

In my fuelly signature there is a list of mods that were really simple:

cdi/coil-advances timing a bit and starts nicer on cold days.
slidedrs- a bit peppier off the line and smooth running
prima pipe- it's probably not as loud as your Honda. nice growl, nothing too obnoxious.

Other than that, I'd suggest just learning basic maintenance, since that will save you a lot over the life of a bike, especially if you have 2!
Don't forget to upgrade your plasma conduits to Bio-neural gel packs. No you might need to switch to a pure dilithium crystal power source. I hear the Ferengi Alliance are able to get dilithium but they only except gold pressed latinum.
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Post by rick71454 »

Hello BuddyLand:

Do any of you who have the 161 BBK installed, noticed any top speed increase, without other modifications?

Thanks
Rick71454
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Post by BuddyRaton »

rick71454 wrote:Hello BuddyLand:

Do any of you who have the 161 BBK installed, noticed any top speed increase, without other modifications?

Thanks
Rick71454
I just can't see doing a BBK WITHOUT other mods...why bother. If you can't at least get more air in and more exhaust out it's not going to do much for you.

I've seen a lot of people wanting plug and play mods recently. They just don't exist. Do your homework, figure out what you want out of your mods, tool up, part up, and nut up.

Mods are not for the faint of heart, if you can't afford the possibility of blowing up a motor don't mess with it.

The biggest difference I have seen is the acceleration and torque. In addition to BBK I opened up the air box, 26mm carb and NCY pipe...without those things its like having a big guy run down the street breathing through a straw.
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Post by rick71454 »

Hello BuddyRaton:

I got better acceleration and torque as you mentioned, but no better top speed. That alone is good enough for some.

I did increase my main jet from stock 92 to 102. I was getting some bogging at top speed, so I increased the main jet from 102 to 112, and it ran fine.
Still no more top speed.

I put in an NCY CDI $24, still no more top speed.

I put in Dr. Pulley 18x14 stock size sliders, still no more top speed.

As a brief experiment, I opened up my air intake and rode my Buddy 125 down the road at top speed. I expected at least an extra 2 or more MPH top speed, but there was not difference.

I then loosed the nuts that hold the exhaust to the engine so more pressure could leak out faster. Still no more top speed.

Is that a fair experiment or not as to determine if opening up more air intake and opening up more exhaust would increase top speed?

I am wondering if going to a bigger carb like yours would make the difference.

Thanks
Rick71454
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Post by Throwback7R »

I have a bbk with Large valve NCY head, NCY cdi, NCY trans kit, 30mm carb, custom intake, pod filter

Same top speed as the girls 125 "maybe " maybe 3-5 mph faster "depends on the wind"

That being said i can smoke the stock 125 from a stand still, I can even pass her scooter like nothing at 50 mph.

but it hits 75 BMPH I saw 80 once on a down hill with the wind at my back.
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