Gasoline - differences among brands

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
bradsarno
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:53 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

Gasoline - differences among brands

Post by bradsarno »

So I had an interesting talk with a gasoline delivery truck driver last week as he was getting ready to re-stock the gas at a local Quick-Trip.

I guess many people know this, but I didn't. He explained that ALL the gasoline we get comes from our same main local/regional terminal. It's all generic and shared among the various brands. At the main terminal they do have the various octane rated fuels separated. But it's all the same juice to start with.

BUT, each company/brand has their own special cocktail of additives, detergents, ethanols, lubricants, etc. that get blended in so that by the time it's at a particular gas station, it is indeed different and unique to that brand.

I've been calculating mileage on my Buddy 170i, and I'm beginning to see a little bit of a pattern with regards to MPG.

The worst was from a generic place called Hucks. The best, and this has repeated a couple of times, comes from Mobil. Phillips is right in the middle. Conoco and Quick Trip were just a click better than Phillips. But so far, Mobil seems to like my Buddy 170i. As time goes by and I have more refills to help get more honest stat's, I'll update this thread.

The MPG ranges I'm seeing so far stretch from 79mpg (worst) to 91mpg (best).

Also, another factor that I need to work out is that I seem to be getting slightly better MPG when I have a little bit of Seafoam in the tank. I put Star-Tron in every tank, but my tanks with both Seafoam and Star-Tron seem to do a little better. Over time I'll test better for this to see if it's really a contributing factor.


B
User avatar
olhogrider
Member
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:30 pm
Location: Vegas Baby!

Post by olhogrider »

There are a lot of "seems to" type statements in your post. The only way to tell for sure is to run several tanks through and document each one accurately. Fuelly.com has a great website just for this purpose. All of those fuel saving devices they sell for cars are no better than placebo. People "feel" that they work in spite of any documented facts. That said, those are the facts re: oil company claims of performance. Your truck driver was right.

Another interesting fact about fuel, lower octane will usually deliver better gas mileage. Weird huh? Just like Starbucks light roast has more caffeine than their dark roast.
User avatar
bradsarno
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:53 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

Post by bradsarno »

Yeah, I may start logging at Fuelly. But I am taking VERY accurate logs and keeping track in Excel, so the miles and the fuel tracking are extremely accurate. I'm filling the tank to EXACTLY the same point and counting miles in the tenths. I just know that driving style affects MPG a lot and adds variablity, so that's why I know it'll take more fill ups to really see the patterns. But regarding the math, it's super precise so far. The only reason I say "seems" so often is that I just need more tanks and time to make the data more useful.

For the 170i in particular, it's a high compression motor, 10.5:1, so it needs the higher octane so as not to pre-ignite. My wife's 125 is lower compression, so we go for middle grade there. With hers, I may experiment with trying the same brand but low, medium, and high octane and see if I can detect an MPG change. I do understand that the goal in general is to use as low an octane as you can without pinging (pre-ignition) because lower octane burns more quickly and completely. Higher octane is there to delay or prevent pre-ignition and the side effect is that it burns a little slower/later. If it's TOO slow a burn and revs are high, then it risks burning as it leaves the exhaust valve a bit and that reduces economy and adds unwanted engine wear and heat where we don't want it.




B
User avatar
olhogrider
Member
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:30 pm
Location: Vegas Baby!

Post by olhogrider »

Aha! I missed the 170i part. It appears you are meticulous in your record keeping. I find the online help useful as I always have my phone with me. I am very interested in your results. Keep up the good work!
User avatar
Loren
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:23 am
Location: Western NY

Post by Loren »

Hello,

This is something I cannot confirm but I have heard that the time of year will affect MPG’s as well. In the winter I have heard that the gasoline formula is different so that engines burn a little hotter in northern climates. This means lower MPG’s and supposedly less engine wear. I used to deliver pizzas and I can attest that for the most part mileage was always worst in the winter time. If this was due to the cold air or the fuel I cannot say.

To your point about fuel quality I think Kwik Fill always had the best gas. I have had cars before that would flip on the check engine light if I bought gas anywhere else but would turn back off after a few tanks at Kwik Fill.
TVB

Post by TVB »

Loren wrote:This is something I cannot confirm but I have heard that the time of year will affect MPG’s as well. In the winter I have heard that the gasoline formula is different so that engines burn a little hotter in northern climates. This means lower MPG’s and supposedly less engine wear. I used to deliver pizzas and I can attest that for the most part mileage was always worst in the winter time. If this was due to the cold air or the fuel I cannot say.
It is true that there a different blends of gas sold in hot vs. cold seasons; this is done for emissions control. It's one of the reasons gas prices go up in the summer: that blend is more expensive to make. But I don't know if it has any effect on fuel efficiency. The warmer and colder temperatures themselves definitely do affect it, however, and my mileage graphs on Fuelly.com show this pretty clearly, swinging up and down with the seasons here in Michigan.
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

TVB wrote:
Loren wrote:This is something I cannot confirm but I have heard that the time of year will affect MPG’s as well. In the winter I have heard that the gasoline formula is different so that engines burn a little hotter in northern climates. This means lower MPG’s and supposedly less engine wear. I used to deliver pizzas and I can attest that for the most part mileage was always worst in the winter time. If this was due to the cold air or the fuel I cannot say.
It is true that there a different blends of gas sold in hot vs. cold seasons; this is done for emissions control. It's one of the reasons gas prices go up in the summer: that blend is more expensive to make...
Then it goes up in the winter because it costs a lot to change over from the summer blend. :)

But really, unless the owner's manual says to use a higher octane gas, using higher octane is just a wast of money, and if your scoot is new, the mpg will change as the scoot breaks in. Use the gas octane Genuine recommends, or regular if it doesn't recommend anything, and buy your gas at a busy gas station.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

On small-engined, relatively light scooters such as Buddys, everything affects MPGs: weather, rider weight, riding style, traffic conditions, brand of gas, season, road surfaces, maintenance (how old your roller and belt are, condition of engine and gear oil), tire tread, tire inflation, engine break in, anything that creates drag, how many hills you ascend/descend, etc.

This is a big reason why measuring should be repeated and results averaged. It's also why getting reliable results form such a comparison is difficult. The margin of error is pretty broad.

Additionally, your MPGs will increase overall during and after engine break in, up to around the first 1,000 miles or so.

So you may track how much fuel you add and consume, but unless you're accounting for other variables in some way, your results will be fairly unreliable. I don't know how much they vary now — what's the distribution look like?

It's really more than you can account for unless you're willing to put a LOT more work — and math — into this. :)

FWIW, I use the same brand most of the time, 76. They're the stations closest to my house on my usual routes out. My mechanic remarked years ago that my carbs always look very clean. Otherwise, I just avoid the cheapest cheap off-brand convenience store brew.

(BTW, too many people, even seasoned riders, ignore tire inflation. It's the easiest, most important thing anyone can check and maintain!)
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
Tocsik
Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: Denver

Post by Tocsik »

this question/comment always leads to...
Attachments
canoworms.jpg
canoworms.jpg (67.66 KiB) Viewed 1722 times
.::I know the voices in my head aren't real, but man do they come up with some great ideas::.
Image
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

bradsarno wrote:Yeah, I may start logging at Fuelly. But I am taking VERY accurate logs and keeping track in Excel...
Your best bet might be to add columns in your spreadsheet that include the gas station, the location and the fuel type (ie, octane level). Then after a couple years filter your spreadsheet by those characteristics, determining which fuel at which station gives you the best performance/mpg.

It's not rocket science, but like Eric said it's not something you can do in a month, or even a year.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
User avatar
Tazio
Member
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA

Post by Tazio »

I always buy the cheapest gas I can find. Never had any problems in many hundreds of thousands of miles in many exotic machines. However, my 89 Porsche 911 runs much better with better milege on 93 octane than the 91 octane crap we get in California.
The Racer's Motto:
Broken bones heal,
Chicks dig the scars,
The pain is temporary,
but the glory is forever!
User avatar
charlie55
Member
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by charlie55 »

I just use NJ tap water. The hydrocarbon content makes it equivalent to 89 octane. And, it removes rust.
Image
User avatar
bradsarno
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:53 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

Post by bradsarno »

Syd wrote:
bradsarno wrote:Yeah, I may start logging at Fuelly. But I am taking VERY accurate logs and keeping track in Excel...
Your best bet might be to add columns in your spreadsheet that include the gas station, the location and the fuel type (ie, octane level). Then after a couple years filter your spreadsheet by those characteristics, determining which fuel at which station gives you the best performance/mpg.

It's not rocket science, but like Eric said it's not something you can do in a month, or even a year.
I'm doing that stuff too in the spreadsheet, what octane level, which particular gas station, seafoam, StarTron, date, etc.

B
dkw12002
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:43 pm
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Post by dkw12002 »

I generally stay with the Walmart-associated Murphy Oil's gas because it is cheap (right now under $3/gal for regular unleaded and they sell a whole lot of gas so you know it is always fresh, even the premium I need for the Vespa. My scooters love the stuff. The only bad gas I ever got, if that is what it was that gummed up my carb was at a service station that did not sell that much gas (Diamond Shamrock), so I figure it could have been old. I'll never know for sure. IF I had a service station that did not add ethanol to the fuel, that's what I would buy, but there aren't any around here.
User avatar
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by BuddyRaton »

I know that about 15 years ago there actually was a difference in brands. I used to run BP in my 650 2T premix waverunner. The higher benzene content did make a little bit of a difference in a 2T but it would not really make any difference in a 4T.

Personally my mpg is way way way down on my list of things to keep track of. Way too many variables and it's just too much like work for me to keep track of without getting paid for it!
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
User avatar
JHScoot
Member
Posts: 2745
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:05 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Post by JHScoot »

not sure i could care less to keep track of mpg, either. and i certainly will not change my riding style or lose any weight off my body to improve it. although the latter would be nice, and i'd get improved mpg with the deal :roll:

so far as difference in performance among brands or octane? i haven't noticed anything discernible from one to the other. i use 89 "rated" gas / octane of a few brands or w/e is closest to me at the time i need it. try to avoid "independent" stations just because i always have even in my cars (when i had cars), and i ride and ride. all seems ok

oh, and i add a bit of seafoam now and again. its a miracle elixir for scooters, as you may well know :P
Riding is riding
lovemysan
Member
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:55 am
Location: kansas city mo

Post by lovemysan »

Back when I logged fuel mileage. Murphy aka Walmart netted the worst mileage. Quiktrip trip and ConocoPhillips were middle ground. Shell or Mobil tops. Anything ethanol free will net the best mileage. And yes it is available in Missouri
User avatar
hal888
Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Franklin, TN

Post by hal888 »

charlie55 wrote:I just use NJ tap water. The hydrocarbon content makes it equivalent to 89 octane. And, it removes rust.
In Tennessee, we distill our own fuel, from pure ingredients, far in the woods. We don't get far, but don't really care.
User avatar
Loren
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:23 am
Location: Western NY

Post by Loren »

hal888 wrote:
charlie55 wrote:I just use NJ tap water. The hydrocarbon content makes it equivalent to 89 octane. And, it removes rust.
In Tennessee, we distill our own fuel, from pure ingredients, far in the woods. We don't get far, but don't really care.
Sounds like you get just as far as the woods. :)
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

bradsarno wrote:
Syd wrote:
bradsarno wrote:Yeah, I may start logging at Fuelly. But I am taking VERY accurate logs and keeping track in Excel...
Your best bet might be to add columns in your spreadsheet that include the gas station, the location and the fuel type (ie, octane level). Then after a couple years filter your spreadsheet by those characteristics, determining which fuel at which station gives you the best performance/mpg.

It's not rocket science, but like Eric said it's not something you can do in a month, or even a year.
I'm doing that stuff too in the spreadsheet, what octane level, which particular gas station, seafoam, StarTron, date, etc.

B
That's a good start. Now if you don't know, read up on how to filter/sort your data to get real information. Hmm, this might be a perfect place for a Pivot Table, Hmm.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
User avatar
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by BuddyRaton »

Syd wrote:
bradsarno wrote:
Syd wrote: Your best bet might be to add columns in your spreadsheet that include the gas station, the location and the fuel type (ie, octane level). Then after a couple years filter your spreadsheet by those characteristics, determining which fuel at which station gives you the best performance/mpg.

It's not rocket science, but like Eric said it's not something you can do in a month, or even a year.
I'm doing that stuff too in the spreadsheet, what octane level, which particular gas station, seafoam, StarTron, date, etc.

B
That's a good start. Now if you don't know, read up on how to filter/sort your data to get real information. Hmm, this might be a perfect place for a Pivot Table, Hmm.
See see...excel spreadsheets and pivot tables,.. don't forget the scatter point plots...I want $45/hour! :mrgreen:
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

BuddyRaton wrote:
Syd wrote:
bradsarno wrote: I'm doing that stuff too in the spreadsheet, what octane level, which particular gas station, seafoam, StarTron, date, etc.

B
That's a good start. Now if you don't know, read up on how to filter/sort your data to get real information. Hmm, this might be a perfect place for a Pivot Table, Hmm.
See see...excel spreadsheets and pivot tables,.. don't forget the scatter point plots...I want $45/hour! :mrgreen:
Hey, dude wants usable data! :D
The majority is always sane - Nessus
Post Reply