0w40 engine oil

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8008135
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0w40 engine oil

Post by 8008135 »

I know engine oil has been discussed in great lengths around here, but not very much about 0w40.

I just did an oil change and used Mobil 1 0w40 sythentic "European Car Formula".

Just curious if anyone has anything to say about this viscosity or type of oil?
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PeteH
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Post by PeteH »

0w40? So is this like water at cold temperatures?
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Post by george54 »

Wait, you already did the oil change and NOW you're asking about that oil? :shock:
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Post by Greyscoot »

I don't think I'd be using 0W40 in Southern Cal. It's too warm there and you don't need cold weather protection, you need warm weather protection. Same here in Florida. I wouldn't run anything less than 10W40 or maybe 20W50. Just my two cents.
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Post by 8008135 »

Haha I got impatient and got whatever was at the nearest gas station. The only options were a bunch of different 10w30, and this 0w40.

I'll probably use something else on the next change.

It shouldn't be that bad though, right? I mean the point of variable viscosity is that it will still perform as a 40 weight at high temps?
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Post by djp4059 »

For motorcycles/scooters that the engine and clutch plates share the same oil, you need to use a special blend of synthetic oil made for these type of engines. Otherwise your clutch plates may start slipping.
Last edited by djp4059 on Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by GregsBuddy »

More rapid wear but you may not have any immediate issues.
I would not suggest leaving it in.
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Post by avescoots1134 »

At operating temperature you are running SAE 40, don't be misinformed by the oil nuts. Maybe give it an extra couple seconds before you zoom off at full throttle.

You're fine.
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Post by GregsBuddy »

Don't be confused by the oil ignoramuses that do no research to know of what they speak.
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Post by viney266 »

Personally, I would change it. If you do leave it in, make sure you let the bike warm up to operating temp before putting a load on it.

But, I don't know much. I haven't done exhaustive amounts of research on oil on the internet :roll:
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Post by 8008135 »

So I finally got around to reading bobistheoilguy.com.

If the information is to be believed... 0w40 is actually good.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-102/.
But maybe start on page 1.
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Post by Stitch »

I would be more concerned with the shear index than startup viscosity. At running temps it's a 40 weight.
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Post by GregsBuddy »

How is it good for the engine?
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Post by Dooglas »

djp4059 wrote:For motorcycles/scooters that the engine and clutch plates share the same oil, you need to use a special blend of synthetic oil made for these type of engines.
Very few scooters have wet clutches which run in the engine oil. The Buddys, for example, do not. Virtually by definition, CVT scooters have a dry transmission. The BV350 is an exception in the sense that it has a wet clutch. The clutch, however, runs in the gear (hub) oil.
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Post by kmrcstintn »

there is the 'shearing' factor to worry about...the further apart the numbers in an oil designation the farther the polymers in the oil formulation have to stretch and that increases the chances for an oil to 'shear out of grade'; eg: the 15w-40 oil that Genuine Scooter Co. calls for is less apt to shear out of grade than the 0w-40 oil that you used; eventually all oils get beat up and the polymers lose their ability to stretch enough to maintain their proper grade (a 40 wt oil becomes a 30 wt oil, a 30wt oil becomes a 20 wt oil, etc); this phenomenon is magnified in bikes, trikes, atv's, and utv's that use a common sump design where the same reservior of oil is run thru the engine, transmission, clutch, and primary (often called a shared sump system); both of my bikes are shared sumps and I often change oil out sooner that my owners' manuals call for to prevent loss of protection due to shearing...

a 0w-40 oil is prone to falling out of grade sooner than a 5w-40, a 10w-40, or a 15w-40 and this means less protective cushion between internal parts and a possibilityof more engine wear;
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Post by 8008135 »

kmrcstintn wrote:a 0w-40 oil is prone to falling out of grade sooner than a 5w-40, a 10w-40, or a 15w-40 and this means less protective cushion between internal parts and a possibilityof more engine wear;
I wonder how quickly these wide range oils fall out of grade.

The manual for the Buddy 150 suggests a pretty damn short oil change interval, but my local shop does them at 2000 mile intervals. Well, 2000 miles indicated on the Buddy 150 odometer would technically be closer to 1650 actual miles. Runs about 1.2x fast.
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Post by Greyscoot »

The thing with oil isn't so much it's lubricity, it can lubricate for many miles. It's viscosity, which is the ability of the oil to cling to parts such as bushings, bearings, cylinder walls, etc. The warmer the outside temperature, the hotter the engine runs during operation, especially on air cooled engines. Our scooter engines do a lot of heating up and cooling down cycles during operation. The hotter the engine runs, the faster viscosity will break down, and the greater the likely hood of engine wear and damage. This is why most motorcycle oils are formulated to combat this. The hotter the climate one lives in, the more often they should change the oil. In the overall scheme of things, oil is cheap. The mechanic at the dealer I bought my Hoolie from recommended changing the oil at 800 miles because "it's hot down here and the oil takes a beating". Running down to 7-11 and getting a quart of car oil is not necessarily the best thing for long engine life. Even the dealer where I got my first scoot (Chinese 50cc) recommended changing the oil every 600 miles, and they use Amsoil scooter oil. In the end, their are probably as many opinions on this as there are members on this forum, so do what you think is right.
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Post by george54 »

Chinese scooters are in a class by themselves and their engines do need their oil changed more frequently. (Ever hear the term "cheap Chinese"?!)

Since the OP's question was about a Buddy 150, Chinese engines don't come into play.
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Post by Dooglas »

kmrcstintn wrote: this phenomenon ("shearing') is magnified in bikes, trikes, atv's, and utv's that use a common sump design where the same reservior of oil is run thru the engine, transmission, clutch, and primary (often called a shared sump system); both of my bikes are shared sumps and I often change oil out sooner that my owners' manuals call for to prevent loss of protection due to shearing..
We are having this discussion on a modern scooter site. To my knowledge, no modern scooters have common sump lubrication. CVT transmissions as used in scooters run in the dry. Typically 4T scooters have a lubricated crankcase and a separate lubricated rear hub.
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Post by Dooglas »

8008135 wrote:The manual for the Buddy 150 suggests a pretty damn short oil change interval, but my local shop does them at 2000 mile intervals. Well, 2000 miles indicated on the Buddy 150 odometer would technically be closer to 1650 actual miles. Runs about 1.2x fast.
I think this "falling out of grade" discussion is being somewhat over emphasized. Most modern engines running synthetic oil have much longer service intervals than the Buddy recommendations. Most of my Piaggio and Vespa scooters recommend full synthetic oil and a change interval of 6,000 miles. I have had excellent longevity experience with those engines. A better question would be why you are all not running full synthetic oil which is much more stable over long periods of use than conventional dino oil.
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Post by 8008135 »

Yeah, since the Buddy 150 is not a wet sump system, and with such short oil change intervals, it probably doesn't matter. Just make sure there IS oil in there!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now I can move onto adjusting my carburetor... :fp:
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Post by GregsBuddy »

The molecular size of 0W oil is small enough to allow metal parts to come into contact on machines with large enough irregularities in machined surface finishes.
The reason this weight of oil can be used in modern engines is because machine tools are able to produce parts with small enough surface irregularities and tight enough tolerances to take advantage of such small molecules. Not all manufacturers have these machines.
The payback comes in lower loss from oil pumping losses.
One of the reasons we must change our oil at short intervals is because it operates at elevated temperatures compared to many/most water cooled engines. Oil is a coolant in all engines and more so in air cooled engines.
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Post by Dooglas »

GregsBuddy wrote:One of the reasons we must change our oil at short intervals is because it operates at elevated temperatures compared to many/most water cooled engines. Oil is a coolant in all engines and more so in air cooled engines.
As I keep observing, air cooled Piaggio/Vespa scooter engines such as the Fly 150, Primavera, Sprint, and 946 have a factory recommended duty cycle of 6,000 miles using 5W40 synthetic. That does not tell me that Buddys need frequent oil changes because they are air cooled.
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Post by 8008135 »

Dooglas wrote:As I keep observing, air cooled Piaggio/Vespa scooter engines such as the Fly 150, Primavera, Sprint, and 946 have a factory recommended duty cycle of 6,000 miles
I don't get why there is such a huge discrepancy between the Buddy's manual stated oil change interval and Piaggio's. 1800 vs 6000. Kind of ridiculous?
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Post by Dooglas »

8008135 wrote:I don't get why there is such a huge discrepancy between the Buddy's manual stated oil change interval and Piaggio's. 1800 vs 6000. Kind of ridiculous?
Yes, it certainly makes one ask why that would be. Is the design and fabrication of the Buddy engine so much poorer that it requires the more frequent interval? Is the recommendation unnecessarily conservative? Does using full synthetic oil make that great a difference? You pick. :wink:
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Post by george54 »

I think GregsBuddy touched on the reasons. A large part of the reason for more frequent oil changes IS the lower build tolerances of the engines. (Not that I feel Genuine scooters are poor quality ) Aren't there some very low price Chinese brands that recommend oil changes at only 600 mile intervals?

This was explained to me once by an automotive engineer. Tighter tolerances and higher quality control are reasons some manufacturer's car engines can last 200K while others crap out at 80K. He singled out Toyota as being built to very high tolerances and quality. My personal experienced with Toyotas dating bark to 1970 agree. (I own four at this time and three of them are going strong at over 135K on those three)

Makes sense to me since the Buddy is manufactured for a much lower price point than the Piaggio.
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Post by k1dude »

8008135 wrote:
Dooglas wrote:As I keep observing, air cooled Piaggio/Vespa scooter engines such as the Fly 150, Primavera, Sprint, and 946 have a factory recommended duty cycle of 6,000 miles
I don't get why there is such a huge discrepancy between the Buddy's manual stated oil change interval and Piaggio's. 1800 vs 6000. Kind of ridiculous?
Why is there such a wide discrepancy between the auto dealers and oil industries 3,000 mile recommendation for cars/trucks and all known independent research recommendations of 7,500 miles?

My auto dealer recommends 3,000 miles, yet my car manual recommends 7,500 miles. Ask yourself who benefits from more frequent oil changes? Follow the money.
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Post by PeteH »

My MINI has a recommended interval of 15,000 miles with full-synth oil. Scary, ain't it?
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Post by george54 »

k1dude wrote: My auto dealer recommends 3,000 miles, yet my car manual recommends 7,500 miles. Ask yourself who benefits from more frequent oil changes? Follow the money.
I get the point you're making and agree, but there's no dealer network to benefit from the short recommended oil change intervals of the Chinese scoots.
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Post by k1dude »

george54 wrote:
k1dude wrote: My auto dealer recommends 3,000 miles, yet my car manual recommends 7,500 miles. Ask yourself who benefits from more frequent oil changes? Follow the money.
I get the point you're making and agree, but there's no dealer network to benefit from the short recommended oil change intervals of the Chinese scoots.
Who said we were talking about Chinese scooters with no dealer network? We were talking about the discrepancy between Piaggio and Genuine. Genuine has a large dealer network that benefits from oil changes. Piaggio just happens to be more honest about it like Honda.

And as mentioned previously, the Chinese scoots likely have poorly machined and poorly fitting parts. So that's probably the reason for such short oil change recommendations. I imagine after a cheap Chinese scoot is fully broken in, you could probably extend the oil change intervals far beyond what the initial requirements were. Companies like Piaggio and Genuine are well machined and fit much better than cheap Chinese scoots.
Last edited by k1dude on Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by 8008135 »

How often do you change your oil on your Buddy, k1dude?
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Post by k1dude »

8008135 wrote:How often do you change your oil on your Buddy, k1dude?
Every 2,000 to 2,500 miles.
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Post by george54 »

K1dude, I thought I had shown my reasoning for mentioning Chinese scooters, apologies if I wasn't clear. And if you go back and read the replies, I wasn't the first poster to bring 'Chinese' into the discussion.

I was trying to make the argument that there was a correlation between price point of a scooter and the oil change and service intervals due to quality of the engines. i.e.- for brands mentioned in this discussion- Piaggio, highest price and longest service interval, Genuine next on both points, and Chinese scooters, lowest price and shortest recommended mileage between oil changes.
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Post by k1dude »

george54 wrote:K1dude, I thought I had shown my reasoning for mentioning Chinese scooters, apologies if I wasn't clear. And if you go back and read the replies, I wasn't the first poster to bring 'Chinese' into the discussion.

I was trying to make the argument that there was a correlation between price point of a scooter and the oil change and service intervals due to quality of the engines. i.e.- for brands mentioned in this discussion- Piaggio, highest price and longest service interval, Genuine next on both points, and Chinese scooters, lowest price and shortest recommended mileage between oil changes.
Sorry. Didn't pick up on that. But I doubt there's much difference between Piaggio and Genuine as far as engine quality. I suspect they are on par with each other. Especially considering PGO used to make Piaggios, hence the namesake.
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Post by kmrcstintn »

Dooglas wrote:
kmrcstintn wrote: this phenomenon ("shearing') is magnified in bikes, trikes, atv's, and utv's that use a common sump design where the same reservior of oil is run thru the engine, transmission, clutch, and primary (often called a shared sump system); both of my bikes are shared sumps and I often change oil out sooner that my owners' manuals call for to prevent loss of protection due to shearing..
We are having this discussion on a modern scooter site. To my knowledge, no modern scooters have common sump lubrication. CVT transmissions as used in scooters run in the dry. Typically 4T scooters have a lubricated crankcase and a separate lubricated rear hub.
point taken so now I'll jump to my previously owned scoots...I am not a proponent of running a 0w-40 or 5w-40 oil in any engine which calls for 15w-40; I owned 2 different Buddy 125's before switching over to motos only; both kept factory fill until 350-600 miles & switched to 15w-40 until 1500 miles; at that point I opted to use 10w-40 motorcycle oil (common with the moto I had at that point)...either synblend or conventional depending on what was on sale; I felt that going to a 5w-40 or 0w-40 would increase the chances of the oil shearing out of grade and reducing protection...

having previously owned a Piaggio BV250, an Aprilia Scarabeo 100, and a Vespa LX150 (too many temptations back then), I would use a 5w-40 heavy duty engine oil like Shell Rotella T-6 or Chevron Delo 400 and saw no need to switch over to a 0w-40; the 5w-40 hdeo oils often cost less than 0w-40 passenger car motor oils and offer great protection to boot...
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