What is so attractive about the Stella?

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rajron
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What is so attractive about the Stella?

Post by rajron »

What is so attractive about the Stella?
I really don’t get it, I think they are sort of funky looking, performance is low, they are high polluters, and you have to shift.
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Post by ScooterTrash »

nothing in my book
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Re: What is so attractive about the Stella?

Post by poop colored buddy »

rajron wrote:What is so attractive about the Stella?
I really don’t get it, I think they are sort of funky looking, performance is low, they are high polluters, and you have to shift.

Your post makes baby Jesus cry.
I have the scoots!
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Re: What is so attractive about the Stella?

Post by gt1000 »

poop colored buddy wrote:
rajron wrote:What is so attractive about the Stella?
I really don’t get it, I think they are sort of funky looking, performance is low, they are high polluters, and you have to shift.

Your post makes baby Jesus cry.
Now there's a memorable comment!

The Stella evokes all sorts of styling cues from the past. It is. after all, essentially a new vintage scooter. My 26 year old daughter doesn't get it, but I do because it pushes the same buttons that those 60's and 70's Vespas pushed. There's also something about 2 strokes. The simplicity, the power (compared to similar sized 4 strokes), even the smell. If you don't get it, fine. Just try not to spoil it for those who do.

As for shifting, you either appreciate it or you don't. A properly executed double clutch downshift is a thing of beauty. So is a nicely broken in motorcycle transmission. Shifting is effortless and, once mastered, allows a good rider to have near instantaneous control over his/her bike. No autobox can come close to delivering the control and satisfaction of a good quality manual.
Andy

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2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
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Post by ericalm »

I'm with gt1000 on this one.

For many of us, our initial attraction to scootering was sparked by vintage 2-stroke scooters. The Stella represents that vintage Vespa many of us want (or wanted), but totally new, with a warranty. The look is the same as the long-lasting workhorse of the Vespa lineup, the P Series. There are tons of accessories and performance mods available, making them very versatile and customizable.

I was in my Greasy's garage this week and had a look at a couple vintage Vespas—a Sport 150 and a rare GTR (I'd never heard of the model before). Gotta say, that lure of the vintage 2-stroke is still strong.

In Californian, we've never been able to buy new Stellas in our state. I would have bought one instead of my Vespa LX if they'd been available here at the time.
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Post by rajron »

Wow didn’t expect this; It was a simple question, and I was not trying to ruin it for anyone, I was just curious but now I need to know even more.
The smells – do you remember? Yes 2-strokes of old had a very distinctive smell but, not now days because the oils have changed. Castrol used to have a great smell when it was natural, now days it smells like, well it smells like oil.
Style, Stella’s, they don’t look like the Vespas’ of old, they look like Vespas’ of mid term.
2 stroke motors are inefficient but they are simple, then again steam engines are simple as well. And having power at 80% of a modern 4-Stroke is OK, but not that good.
Double-clutch – do the Stella’s have straight cut gears?

My point was more of why a Stella when there are so many very good automatics out there. As for tripping around town in a vintage style vehicle, I understand that very well but most of us have scooters for particle reasons more than just recreational so the modern automatics in my mind make more sense in filling that need.
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Post by ericalm »

rajron wrote:My point was more of why a Stella when there are so many very good automatics out there. As for tripping around town in a vintage style vehicle, I understand that very well but most of us have scooters for particle reasons more than just recreational so the modern automatics in my mind make more sense in filling that need.
I think it's really a matter of what kind of scooter experience you're going for and personal aesthetics and taste. It's kind of like asking why someone would prefer Car A when Car B performs better, gets better MPGs, etc. Well... they just do and often can't explain the reason. Why is the Mini Cooper so popular around here when it's more expensive that other cars its size, doesn't perform as well and gets worse gas mileage? Our choices about these things are usually only half based on logical reasons and specs.

For me, I ride almost every day and have no car. Chances are, I'd still use an auto for my daily commute most days. On weekends and every once in a while, I may take the (hypothetical) Stella.
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Post by Eddy Merckx »

The stella would be my choice if it had a 4 stroke engine and an automatic trany, I personaly don't get why it does not come that way as an option, oh well, the styling is cool and the wider front end is great for inclement weather and cold air temps, heck even the buddy tries to emulate some of that coolness in its styling.....................oh and it is my opinion that we all went the scooter route 1st becuase its cool, and 2nd because its utilitarion capacity, and 3rd because its cool...:)
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Post by illnoise »

rajron wrote:My point was more of why a Stella when there are so many very good automatics out there. As for tripping around town in a vintage style vehicle, I understand that very well but most of us have scooters for particle reasons more than just recreational so the modern automatics in my mind make more sense in filling that need.
Ignoring culture, styling and history…
Many people (self included) think a manual transmission is more fun to ride, more responsive and interactive. (why are 99.999% of motorcycles manual-transmission?) On top of that, it's built like a tank, much easier to maintain* than a modern 4-stroke, and thanks to the popularity of the P-series Vespa, parts and accessories will be available for pretty much the rest of time, there are limitless performance modifications

* that's not entirely true, modern 4-stroke autos are easier to maintain in the short term. But over time, as the complicated systems of a modern scooter fail, they'll become harder to troubleshoot and fix , whereas the simplicity and accessibility of the Stella engine, fuel delivery system, and electrical system make it much easier to work on, and *much* easier for a home mechanic, because tolerances aren't as crucial.

Why would anyone ride a rumbly, gas-hogging Harley when you can buy a technologically superior and cheaper Ninja? Why would anyone buy a vintage car when you could get a new one?
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Post by Kevin K »

rajron wrote:Double-clutch – do the Stella’s have straight cut gears?
Yes, but I've never had to double-clutch mine. If you match the engine speed just right, they'll drop right into gear.
Of course the downside to manuals is that there's three cables (one for clutch, two for gearbox) to keep adjusted and eventually replace.
And don't even get me going on cruciform replacement...
-K
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Post by illnoise »

Eddy Merckx wrote:The stella would be my choice if it had a 4 stroke engine and an automatic trany, I personaly don't get why it does not come that way as an option.
The Bajaj Chetak has the same general style with a 4-stroke engine, though it is geared. It's been out of production for a few years, but Argo USA still has a warehouse full of 'em and would be happy to sell you one.

At the moment, we're lucky LML is making any scooters at all, but there are rumors they're working on a 4-stroke P-series-style engine, as well as an Vespa ET-series (automatic) clone. There were automatic smallframe Vespas, but there's very small demand for an automatic steel scooter (there's not much demand for the manual ones, for that matter), most people that want that style of bike prefer to shift. It would require a whole new engine design and the associated expenses of development, and modern engines just don't fit right in a Vespa frame.


Bb.
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Post by ericalm »

illnoise wrote:
Eddy Merckx wrote:The stella would be my choice if it had a 4 stroke engine and an automatic trany, I personaly don't get why it does not come that way as an option.
The Bajaj Chetak has the same general style with a 4-stroke engine, though it is geared. It's been out of production for a few years, but Argo USA still has a warehouse full of 'em and would be happy to sell you one.

At the moment, we're lucky LML is making any scooters at all, but there are rumors they're working on a 4-stroke P-series-style engine, as well as an Vespa ET-series (automatic) clone.
Also, those Bajaj 4-strokes are reportedly pretty pokey.

If LML can build a better 4-stroke P-series style engine, that would be great. In a 200cc? Even better!

The ET clone rumor is pretty interesting, but I really have to wonder if it would be smart for Genuine to offer the Buddy 125/150 and an ET. Plus, who knows what kind of engine they'd drop in there... Not a Piaggio LEADER. Another GY6?
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Post by illnoise »

ericalm wrote:The ET clone rumor is pretty interesting, but I really have to wonder if it would be smart for Genuine to offer the Buddy 125/150 and an ET. Plus, who knows what kind of engine they'd drop in there... Not a Piaggio LEADER. Another GY6?
They might have old tooling for an out-of-date Piaggio automatic engine, IIRC the Leader's been modified a few times. I was surprised to hear that Piaggio was still on good terms with them (there's just no longer an official relationship). It's even possible (but unlikely) they'd be buying Piaggio motors from, say, the new Brazilian and/or Vietnamese Piaggio factories. Piaggio seems to have no problem selling engines to competitors, or in the case of the Vectrix three-wheeler, frames.

It would be interesting to see where it fits into the Genuine lineup, but I can't imagine they'd pass up the chance to sell them.

I keep hearing 200cc rumors, too, but that might be the four-stroke, it'd be hard to get a 200cc 2-stroke to pass emissions testing anywhere, plus a 150cc 4-stroke based on that old design just isn't enough power to push that hunk of metal around (See also: Bajaj, as you mentioned.)

Bb.
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Post by gt1000 »

Why would anyone ride a rumbly, gas-hogging Harley when you can buy a technologically superior and cheaper Ninja? Why would anyone buy a vintage car when you could get a new one?
Right! And why would anyone buy an air cooled Ducati when you can get more bang for your buck (along with less vibration) from any number of other brands? There are actually lots of reasons but the responses I offered were based on the original questions.

A couple of clarifications...

Don't take the "don't ruin it" comment personally. I said that more in anticipation of future comments, not anything anyone said here.

Double clutching is unnecessary for bikes with sequential gearboxes. The double clutch comment was just another reason (to me) why shifting for myself can be so satisfying, even in a car. If it was just my choice (and my wife didn't commute 40 miles a day in traffic) I wouldn't own anything with an automatic, except for one CVT scooter. As it stands now, my only manual transmission is my motorcycle.

The smells are different now, for sure. The last two stroke I owned I pretty much settled on that strawberry scented oil so my 2 stroke certainly didn't smell like the old days. Two strokes are still notably different animals than 4 strokes and much simpler. The fact that all these accessories and parts are available and will continue to be available is attractive. Also, every other scooter out there is a modern design CVT unit. I'm okay with the Stella being unique in that company.

Would I own a Stella as my primary commuting vehicle? Probably not, just too many compromises for my daily 4 mile commute through congested neighborhoods. Would I love an olive green one as my 2nd scoot? Goes without saying.
Andy

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Post by rajron »

All is good.

Strawberry scented oil…………
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Post by jmazza »

I want a Stella. Just sayin'
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Post by Keys »

I had a Bajaj. Yep, pokey is right. Also, they are only required to have parts availability for 5 years after they cease production of a model. Then what???

Shifting is fun. Automatics (although I have 3) are missing something. Easier is not always either better or more fun.

Where did the figure 80% the power of a 4-stroke come from???? Not true. A decent 2-stroke will easily outrun a 4-stroke of the same displacement since it makes power on each stroke rather than every other. The only place it could be called inefficient is in emissions...not power.

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Post by ericalm »

Keys wrote:A decent 2-stroke will easily outrun a 4-stroke of the same displacement since it makes power on each stroke rather than every other.
I think a Buddy could take many 2-stroke 125s off the line and I'm pretty sure my LX could outrun a P200.
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Post by Keys »

Ericalm...I'm speaking primarily in the theoretical. If, by some wonderful happenstance, someone were to connect a Buddy 125 engine up to the same drivetrain as a P125 Vespa, and run it against a P125, the Vespa would ultimately make more power. Over a smaller powerband, granted, but overall, more power. This is why almost all of the roadracing engines during the 60's and early 70's were 2-stroke. If you kept it on the powerband, it kicked ass! Same with motocrossers up until the late 90's. The only reason they aren't still using 2-strokers on the motocross course right now is the criteria put forth by the governing bodies to favor lower emission 4-strokes.

All things being equal (having been a roadracer in 1974-1975) I believe a good 2-stroke will always have the potential to outrun a 4-stroke.

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Re: What is so attractive about the Stella?

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rajron wrote:What is so attractive about the Stella?
I really don’t get it, I think they are sort of funky looking, performance is low, they are high polluters, and you have to shift.
Don't get it, huh? Then why is your avatar two classic metal scooters? :P
The folks at Stellaspeed forum would probably appreciate your question. :wink:
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Stella - twostroke

Post by JNV »

speaking of motocross. I remember when the Honda CR-500cc two stroke dirt bike came out in the mid 80's. Cycle world magazine ran it againts the interceptor 500 on a quarter mile track. The Two stroke dirt bike kicked the Interceptors ass every time. That was quarter mile only; of course the Interceptor obviously has a much higher top speed, but that does go to show how powerfull a little two-stroke engine can be.
Back to Stella vs auto scoots. I have both a Vespa P-200 and a Buddy 125. I love them both for different reasons; the Buddy is great for in town traffic with no shifting to be done. Sometimes, like today, I just had to ride the Vespa.
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Post by gt1000 »

All things being equal (having been a roadracer in 1974-1975) I believe a good 2-stroke will always have the potential to outrun a 4-stroke.
Yamaha RD's? Back in the day, a good friend of mine raced RD's. He had a 250 and a 350 and those bikes did kick ass. Had a chance to ride the 350 a few times and it was a screamer.
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Post by rajron »

Two stroke motors with high out put are grenades – they do not last therefore they are detuned and their full potential cannot be realized.
In all forms of motor sports the 2 stroke has and is going to the wayside because of their reliability issues combined with poor throttle response, lubrication issues and poor fuel economy, oh and the EPA problems. At one time small displacement 2 strokes ruled – not anymore.

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Post by pocphil »

Buddy 125cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.5
Bajaj 150cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.2
Vespa P125 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 6.2
Vespa P200 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 7.8

These are all numbers that i've gotten on our local Dynojet.

Kinda sinks the whole "2 strokes are faster than 4 strokes" business.

I think that axiom held true until about 10 years ago.

Don't ever, EVER race a Buddy 125 on your bone stock Stella, PX150 or most P200's. You'll probably lose.
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Post by illnoise »

pocphil wrote:Buddy 125cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.5
Bajaj 150cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.2
Vespa P125 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 6.2
Vespa P200 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 7.8

These are all numbers that i've gotten on our local Dynojet.

Kinda sinks the whole "2 strokes are faster than 4 strokes" business.

I think that axiom held true until about 10 years ago.

Don't ever, EVER race a Buddy 125 on your bone stock Stella, PX150 or most P200's. You'll probably lose.
Yeah, but Scott Smallwood would still beat you on a tuned 50cc 2-stroke racer.

You're right of course (look at the doofus arguing with phil!) in the real world it has far less to do with 4-vs-2 strokes than with frame weight, fuel delivery, general technology, manufacturing/assembly tolerances, level of tune, etc. But in theory, 2 strokes are more powerful than four.

Ignoring that, I think the simplicity argument is stronger. Even I can rebuild a 2-stroke vintage Vespa engine (it wasn't pretty, but I did it), whereas I look at my Blur and don't even know where the spark plug is. I think there's a lot to be said for that, especially when you consider the P-series has been around as long as it has and parts are so easy to come by, and probably always will be, whereas many of the newer designs may be more reliable and more powerful, but they're also more disposable. I hate to side with the harley guys, but again, it's the Harley V-twin vs. a proprietary Hyosung engine design (pretend they both make 600cc V-twins for a moment). The Hyosung is probably more efficient, more powerful, better in a lot of ways, but the Harley design is simpler and gives you more flexibility/simplicity for repair, modifications, tuning, etc. Neither is the "best" way to do it, but there's a good argument for either, even ignoring the harley culture (please do!) there's something to be said for tradition and longevity.
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Re: What is so attractive about the Stella?

Post by BuddyRaton »

rajron wrote:What is so attractive about the Stella?
.

She's Hot!!!




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Post by BuddyRaton »

Very Hot


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Post by pocphil »

Scott Smallwood would beat me on a pedal tricycle and still have time for a smoke-break (that includes the time it would take to bum a smoke).

>But in theory, 2 strokes are more powerful than four<

Nope, that doesn't work anymore. I believed it too...I preached it for years...it just doesn't work anymore. The 110cc Rattler DOESN'T make more HP than the 125cc Buddy. I can't think of any more accurate comparison of modern auto vs. modern auto.

Where the NEW theory falls on its face is in the 49cc market. Currently, you can NOT make a 49cc 4 stroke motor develop as much HP as a 2 stroke, why? Well, in theory it can, but the fact that we have to reduce the RPMs enough to work with the transmission to move 200 lbs. ruins the whole discussion. It's all about application at those tiny CC's. A 2T 49cc scooter runs at OVER 10,000 RPM to make power. You simply can't get a 49cc 4T to spin fast enough.

It seems like 125cc / 250cc is the tipping point. We're in that area where the line isn't so well defined.
The numbers speak for themselves - The Vespa P125X 2T doesn't make as much power (HP) or torque as the Buddy 125 4T. It's slower both in accelleration and top speed.

All of this goes right out the window though when you start talking about competition. Yes, you can make a 100% disposable 2T race motor that will get 85+ HP. But it won't make it for long. You wouldn't buy a scooter that had a motor designed to last 4 hours.

Maintenance -
Rebuilding a 4 stroke is NOT as difficult as most mechanics would have you believe. At Vespa Service Training new techs were suprised how easy it was to completely tear down and rebuild a modern 4 stroke motor, it definitely required less special tools than the vintage vespa motor. Also, when will you ever need to rebuild your 4T motor. 100,000 miles? Maybe not. A motor that runs without the sudden on-again / off-again rev-changes of shifting gears doesn't experience the heat and wear of a motor that has to shift gears every 1500 RPM. Unless heavily tuned, you'll only need to replace the belt and rollers every 10,000 miles or so.

Would you rather replace a cruciform (drop the motor, split the cases, buy new seals and gaskets and torque everything back together) every 5000 miles or change a $30 belt every 10,000 miles?

NOSTALGIA is the ONLY reason the Stella (vintage vespa) still sells after a market presence of over 60 years. It aint the economy, it aint the performance, it aint the ease of finding parts...there's a reason 95% of the worlds market has abandoned the 2 stroke shifting scooter.

If you ride a shifter it's because you think it's cool and it makes you happy.

I'd give a generous portion of my left nut for a Stella with a modern 250cc 4T motor.

You know damned well it won't have a 4 speed.
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Post by Keys »

pocphil wrote:Buddy 125cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.5
Bajaj 150cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.2
Vespa P125 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 6.2
Vespa P200 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 7.8
Inconclusive. Based on de-tuned (for emissions reasons or non-modern design and manufacture. NOW test a Rattler 110 against a 110cc GY6.

And yeah, GT1000, they WERE Yamaha RD's I raced. Graduated to a TZ250 just before I left SoCal and left racing.

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Post by rajron »

She is way HOT! – They now need a Buddy Hottie. ---- Contest???
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Post by Buddy_wannabe »

... whats so attractive ? ..... just the look ... screems SCOOTER ... love the wide shield up front ... love the big fender/wheel skirt look .... headlight

.... I do with it had an automatic option ... to me shifting just seems like kind of a pain .... (but thats just my opinion)
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Post by rajron »

Yes I do agree that the Stella screams scooter, those pictures of women on the scoot emphasizes that. It’s the olden day’s functionality that bothers me.
So what do you think about the spare tire; most modern scoots now come with tubeless tires eliminating that bulge in the rear. This is not counting scooters using the continental kit, or whatever you call the rear hanging spare tire, because in my eyes that kit is way cool looking.
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Post by gt1000 »

Frankly, I am a little disappointed in the dyno results posted by Phil. Historically, a 2 stroke engine could reliably make more power than its 4 stroke counterpart (same displacement). If memory serves, what really sunk the competition 2 stroke was fuel consumption, those competition 2 strokes guzzled gas, as did street legal RD's. From personal experience, when I kitted my old 2 stroke, I went from getting close to 70mpg to below 60 mpg.

The really important question here is "why". Why do 2 strokes no longer have a power advantage? Without doing any research I have to assume the reason is development. Nobody is spending any money on developing 2 strokes (for good reasons, like emissions, mpg, etc) while billions go into the development of 4 stroke technology every year. Given equal footing in terms of development, in other words comparing a truly modern 2 stroke to its 4 stroke counterpart, I'm guessing the 2T comes out on top performance wise.

The best, perhaps only example of truly modern 2 stroke tech that I've personally ridden was the Aprilia Ditech 50. It easily blew away any other 50 I've ever ridden and threatened a number of bigger bikes. I have to wonder how the Ditech's technology would transfer to a 150 sized scoot. Hard to imagine a Stella or P-150 with FI but that's one way to clean up the 2T act.
Andy

2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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Post by illnoise »

gt1000 wrote:The really important question here is "why". Why do 2 strokes no longer have a power advantage? Without doing any research I have to assume the reason is development. Nobody is spending any money on developing 2 strokes (for good reasons, like emissions, mpg, etc) while billions go into the development of 4 stroke technology every year. Given equal footing in terms of development, in other words comparing a truly modern 2 stroke to its 4 stroke counterpart, I'm guessing the 2T comes out on top performance wise.
That's my thinking too, you just articulated it better. : )

The "bulge in the rear of a Vespa, aside being half it's charm, ha, is to accommodate the engine, not the spare tire. Many vintage Vespas have storage in the left cowl rather than a spare. The wheel is driven directly by the engine with no chain or belt or shaft, so the bulk of the engine hangs to the right side of the scooter. Putting the spare there was just an ineffective way of balancing out the engine.

That just brings up another awesome thing about Vespas/Stellas: Interchangeable front/rear wheels (and an on-board spare!) that can be removed and replaced in seconds. Bicycle tires are more difficult to replace.
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Post by pocphil »

Keys wrote:
pocphil wrote:Buddy 125cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.5
Bajaj 150cc - Rear wheel horsepower 7.2
Vespa P125 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 6.2
Vespa P200 (two stroke) - Rear wheel horsepower 7.8
Inconclusive. Based on de-tuned (for emissions reasons or non-modern design and manufacture. NOW test a Rattler 110 against a 110cc GY6.

And yeah, GT1000, they WERE Yamaha RD's I raced. Graduated to a TZ250 just before I left SoCal and left racing.

--Keys 8)
INCONCLUSIVE?!?!?!? Are you MAD?
Sure, I haven't run a Rattler 110cc 2T on a Dyno yet, but based on what I've seen on the street it will have LESS horsepower than a Buddy 125 4T.

Keys wrote:
"NOW test a Rattler 110 against a 110cc GY6"

AAARGH! That is my pet peeve....before you try to challenge one of my posts PLEASE do your research. There is NO SUCH THING AS A 110cc GY6 motor. That would be like me saying I just put a P140X motor in my Vespa. There is no such thing. GY6 is the name for the 49cc / 125cc / 150cc motor built by Honda (kymco actually) between '83 and '99. When people start telling me about their GY6 motor in their Yamati/ChinoCrap etc. I immediately tune them out. If you aren't smart enough to call it what it is...stay out of the hunt.

Now I also raced RD400s (AHRMA #669/WERA #613) and I will be the FIRST to tell you as soon as the FZR400 and CB-1 showed up we became instantly obsolete, even on the well suspended Daytona I was riding at the time. The 4T's simply had MORE POWER. We made power with insane revs. They made power with torque all through the powerband. Stock for Stock we knew we were in trouble. My options were to keep rebuilding/maintaining a losing motorcycle or to spend the $$$ on a brand new bike. I was broke at the time so I stopped racing. Paying to come in at the back of the pack wasn't much fun.

DETUNED?!?!?! These bikes aren't detuned, the bikes I put on my dyno are as built by the manufacturer, designed by engineers to be efficient, reliable, economical and affordable to build / maintain. You can only measure STOCK vs. STOCK. What the customer can buy is the only thing that matters.

"Yeah, but you can get more power out of a 2T with the same cc's" yeah, and if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle. It doesn't matter. We're talking about what you can buy. Not what you'd ride in a fantasy world where a TZR250 top end lasts more than 10,000 miles.

:idea:
Phil Waters
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Post by rajron »

Engine bulges are acceptable and looks OK. Spare tire bulges look better if they weren’t there.
Tubeless tires are pretty easy to repair on-line if it is a puncture. If it’s a major catastrophic tire blow out – that’s when I’ll be wishing I had a spare like a Stella, but then again I ride with a cell phone.

Oh and to reiterate, I am also in the believe 2- strokes are a way of the past, but they were great in their time.
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Post by JokerJim »

I put a deposit down on the Avocado Stella yesterday. Going to sit on it today.
I am trading OLIVE in on the Stella.
The color is close enough to the Italia that all i need to do is transfer the plate.
I will be without a Buddy until my St. Tropez arrives.

That will make my fleet of scoots complete. No more scooters, I swear.

86 Honda Elite 150
08 Stella
08 St. Tropez

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Post by gt1000 »

"Yeah, but you can get more power out of a 2T with the same cc's" yeah, and if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle.
:shock: :rofl:

Methinks a nerve was touched. :wink:
I will be the FIRST to tell you as soon as the FZR400 and CB-1 showed up we became instantly obsolete, even on the well suspended Daytona I was riding at the time. The 4T's simply had MORE POWER.
This surprised me too, but not for the reason you might be thinking. I seem to recall the FZR emerging in, maybe, 1987 or 88 and the CB a year or two later. If anything, I seem to recall the swan song of the RDs coming years before this, but memory can fog with age. In fact, wouldn't your Daytona have been at least 7 or 8 years old when the FZR debuted? I may have dates and/or model numbers confused here but if I'm anywhere near correct here, comparing any racing vehicle to a similar vehicle that's 7 years older isn't all that fair. I am not arguing your conclusion, I'm just reflecting on this single example.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm really glad we have guys like Phil and the other long-time dealers contributing here. I wish we had more of them, in fact. If I ever wind up buying a Stella it will be for aesthetic and nostalgia purposes with no ill-conceived notions of performance improvement. Which is pretty much where I started when I posted my initial response to this thread. The more guys like Phil we have contributing the more informed we are as consumers.
Andy

2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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Post by pocphil »

I started racing in '90 and the RZ350's weren't allowed in AHRMA. The RD400F was the most "modern" bike you could run. Running the same bike in WERA put you on the track with FZR400's and CB-1's as well as a plethora of RZ350's. It was pretty clear in those days that if you wanted to build a Don Vesco (look it up) $tyle motor you could stay competitive, but unless you were sponsored or liked rebuilding a motor every Sunday you switched over to the 4 Stroke. For most riders staying competitive meant buying a slightly used (crashed) FZR or changing classes.

It all goes in with my original argument, you've got to compare like for like. Stock vs. Stock. What's available vs. What's Available.
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Post by shark »

Cant we all just get along and ride.... :sigh:
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Post by louie »

shark wrote:Cant we all just get along and ride.... :sigh:
sometimes my husband and i go riding, me on the buddy and him on his harley, we get along but some of the looks we get are funny...the reaction is different when he's on the lambretta.
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Post by Keys »

Very well. I wll step back and allow Phil to be the Absolute Authority on all. I shall humbly accept my complete and absolute ignorance.

Are you happy now?

--Keys
"Life without music would Bb"
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Post by shark »

Keys wrote:Very well. I wll step back and allow Phil to be the Absolute Authority on all. I shall humbly accept my complete and absolute ignorance.

Are you happy now?

--Keys
We'll settle this now...... I am the supreme being!! :P
You all lose!!

Actually I'm just along for the ride!!
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Post by gt1000 »

Are you happy now?
Who?

Since I'm not sure to whom this query is addressed, I'll just say that having someone check out of an interesting exchange like this is never a good thing. Never knew you raced RD's so I learned a few new things in this thread.

In fact, to me this has been one of the more interesting discussions we've had in a while. People took some time to articulate thoughts and opinions and it wasn't just a bunch of "awesome", or "+1", or "I agree" or "welcome to MB times 50". I enjoyed reading everyone's points, whether I agreed or not.

Time well spent!
Andy

2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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Post by illnoise »

keys wrote:Are you happy now?
Whatever your qualifications, and they may be impressive, if you're too insecure to debate with Phil (he's not ALWAYS right, even I pick fights with him sometimes, just for fun, and I'm an idiot compared to him), then that's your problem, not the rest of ours.

10+ years of friendship (including tongue-kissing) w/Phil is going to make me side with him, yeah, but I'm happy to read conflicting opinions/experiences.
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Post by ericalm »

illnoise wrote:
keys wrote:Are you happy now?
Whatever your qualifications, and they may be impressive, if you're too insecure to debate with Phil (he's not ALWAYS right, even I pick fights with him sometimes, just for fun, and I'm an idiot compared to him), then that's your problem, not the rest of ours.

10+ years of friendship (including tongue-kissing) w/Phil is going to make me side with him, yeah, but I'm happy to read conflicting opinions/experiences.
I don't think it's a matter of insecurity, and we certainly want to welcome others' opinions, more/better information, and friendly debate. But you have to admit that Phil's tone is frequently a bit abrasive and condescending.

Let's let the facts speak for themselves and offer opinions and dissent without judgement or being overly arrogant or dismissive. And let's also recognize that various members have differing, uh, styles of writing or discussing and not take things so personally.

Thank you.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
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Post by Keys »

pocphil wrote:
Keys wrote:
"NOW test a Rattler 110 against a 110cc GY6"

AAARGH! That is my pet peeve....before you try to challenge one of my posts PLEASE do your research. There is NO SUCH THING AS A 110cc GY6 motor.
Exactly my point. Thanks for making it for me. Unequal quantities deliver inconlusive results.

I'm done.

--Keys
"Life without music would Bb"
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Post by jrsjr »

illnoise wrote:10+ years of friendship (including tongue-kissing) w/Phil ...
eeeewwwwww! See, now that's just too much information! :bleh:
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Post by illnoise »

ericalm wrote:I don't think it's a matter of insecurity, and we certainly want to welcome others' opinions, more/better information, and friendly debate. But you have to admit that Phil's tone is frequently a bit abrasive and condescending.
In this case, perhaps. But I thought Keys was rudely dismissive of Phil's earlier dyno post, and in the "Stator" thread, Keys was even more dismissive of Phil's advice. It's possible Keys is a genius mechanic and his dealer is a moron, but Phils advice was entirely sound and polite and Keys' response there seemed unwarranted. For whatever reason, there's a history there. I've rarely seen Phil get "abrasive."

My point was that if someone gets snarky, he should not feel surprised nor sorry for himself when someone gets snarky back.

But yes, in my role as an unbiased junior moderator (and, thankfully, subordinate to Ericalm), I concede that both sides were unpleasant and should play nice in the future or risk academic suspension. : )
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Post by lou76 »

phil's post included comparing dyno numbers on 4 totally different scooters, in terms of displacement, geared/cvt, body type, etc.... and another of his responses made a (well-educated) assumption about the results of a HYPOTHETICAL dyno comparison between a rattler 110 and a buddy 125....
obviously phil knows much more than the average MB reader, but that doesn't mean that noone should point out any incongruence in his posts... depending on what angle you look at it from, keys' was not the only "snarky" poster....

i appreciate the information that more knowledgeable posters share here, but lets not have an unspoken "official font of wisdom" election.... i appreciate posts that end up with contrasting and contradictory information, because then i get to educate myself, talk to cats in my local club, talk to people at rallies, talk to my mechanic, and come up with my own understanding, my own opinion... and then i get to make my own contradictory posts and in turn get contradicted and get butt hurt... and then i am really a scooterist...
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