PGO/Genuine EFI modules and heat

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:32 pm

So, time for a new scoot here, and have been staring at the new Kick, which seems for my needs to be ideal: right smaller size, slim profile, able to hold 50+ at a cruise, anyhow, with some remaining on the top end.

Early on, and in order to clear up any confusion, I e-mailed Genuine to ask for confirmation of the power output, and they confirmed that it is indeed, 11.5 hp (probably at the shaft).

The one remaining issue is this: ever since Genuine announced their first EFI scoot, there seems to be - still - heat-related EFI issues now-and-then, here and there, so sporadic that they can't truly be identified as a trend, but it's now 2016, and reports are still heard.

When I raised the question here some years ago, folks pointed out that PGO had plenty of experience in building and selling EFI bikes in Taiwan and Asia with no especial record of heat-related failures. And then of course the problem in US-market scooters appeared to have been solved with issuance of a re-programmed module not quite so sensitive to heat.

Yet - infrequently - we continue to hear that people have had some stuttering, or shutdown, and not even necessarily when operation was wide open: I seem to recall that one user had it happen when riding at no more than 45 mph for 20 minutes. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't live in Arizona. and am not going to be touring; I have no need for riding with the throttle pegged for miles and miles, but here on the Mid-Atlantic coast, it does get hot and humid, and I can't afford to buy a scoot that's gonna need a long cool-down when operated moderately for half an hour.

It has been said that the PGO EFI module apparently has a designed-in "cooling cycle" to limit performance under extreme heat. I have not been able to confirm that; PGO engineers, as with other makers, play their cards pretty close to the chest.

If true, maybe that cycle kicks in at too low a temp, or the engine air-cooling design itself is not up to the job. That would be odd: I once had an air-cooled Zuma 125, and it ran fine at it's 50-something WOT speeds. Presumably, it can be done.

Anyhow, this is not a perception that any maker wants floating around in a potential buying public. If the overheating problem had been well and truly sorted when the reprogramming "fix" was announced, then I'd already be riding a Kick. As it is, PGO is doing itself no favors when allowing ambiguity to circulate.

So, anybody? Please note that I have no intent to cast aspersions at PGO, or to offend. Our first bike was a Bud 150 Italia, and it was as reliable as a stone fence. Can the same be said of the non-carbed line? Don't want a carburetor; want the trouble-free efficiency of EFI. Not, though, if it's gonna run a fever at the drop of a hat.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Well, we have never had such a stuttering or shutdown experience with our Buddy so no personal observation to add. I will say that when you read posts on Modern Buddy and on Modern Vespa, you see many references to scooters stuttering or hesitating. Many theories are offered including carb or injector issues, evap control system, CDI, spark plug wire or connector, etc. After remedying one or more of these issues, many report that their problem went away. I say this as it suggests to me that many causes can result in similar symptoms, which means others may/may not have observed a high temp effect on the EFI/CDI. Certainly it is not true that most PGO owners need to give their bike an extended cool-down after a half hour ride as you fear. As far as I know, no one is in that situation.

On a brighter note, I went out and looked at a Kick the other day as well. Nice size and weight. Fuel injection is always a plus IMO. Looks good. And the new gas filler cap is clever. My advice is - go for it!

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:35 pm

Dooglas wrote: On a brighter note, I went out and looked at a Kick the other day as well. Nice size and weight. Fuel injection is always a plus IMO. Looks good. And the new gas filler cap is clever. My advice is - go for it!

Yeah, it's schweeet, fer sher. Sat on it, took it off the stand. Fits perfectly. I am truly jonesin'. We really want to buy it, but would hate to get disappointed by an EFI module that can't take, say, an hour at 45-50 mph or so on a 90-degree day without having to lie down with a cold cloth on the forehead.

As to the other possible causes mentioned, well, this will be our...umm...14th? 15th? scooter (kinda, counting the Tomos ST), and we've seen most every mishap, breakage, defective-outta-the-box mechanical issue among the Hondas, Yamahas, Piaggios,Genuines, what-have-you fleet of the past, but never a shut-down of full EFI function, or even a scaled-back "cooling cycle" kick-in.

It's weird, s'wot it is: presumably, it gets hot in Taiwan, yet people are doing day-trips or commuting good distances, or just, you know, riding around for a few hours all the time, yet we hear of no riots or uproar or threatened suits about red-faced fainting steamy EFIs.

So what's the deal? You would think that PGO would get way out front over the matter, and quickly: talk about it, develop a fix - if it does, indeed, exist, and not allow what was first a little blip with the then-newly-released Blur to become a lingering rumor, assuming they want to encourage sales. Could it be that the newer A/C 125 mill just produces too much heat for the electronics, and that's the way it is?

I'm hoping that riders of EFI'd Genuine bikes will chine in and suggest that I'm paranoid, nuts, that they regularly do 80-mile days on their Buddy or Hooligan 170s with no sweat, that the odd whack-a-mole overheated EFI module is a true anomaly..

Talk to me.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:52 pm

To be fair, we DO have some issues with my wife's 2014 (the shop not addressing it right is entirely different). It's the carbed 125, no EFI. It despises starting when it's hot.

I've replaced the ignition coil and CDI box, no luck. DeeDee suggested we might make sure the exhaust valve isn't too tight.

DeeDee · Post by **DeeDee** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:55 pm

I rode my 2014 170i fairly hard. One ride I took it on the freeway for 4 or 5 exits. It was mid morning, and the traffic was light. Wasn't a hot day, but the 8 miles at 65mph caused the check engine light to come on, and the scooter to go into limp mode. I pulled into a gas station, shut it off and hung out for 5 minutes. Started right up, and no problems after. Never did it again, but I avoided those speeds.

I would have to believe the kick could go for hours on end at 45mph on a 90 degree day with no problem.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:58 pm

skully93 wrote:To be fair, we DO have some issues with my wife's 2014 (the shop not addressing it right is entirely different). It's the carbed 125, no EFI. It despises starting when it's hot.

I've replaced the ignition coil and CDI box, no luck. DeeDee suggested we might make sure the exhaust valve isn't too tight.

Thanks, scully. Our '08 Italia 150 never cared whether it was hot, cold or luke - always started, always ran. Had zero complaints with it.

Still have hopes for the Kick - it's just the right size & weight for my enfeebled & aged self.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:13 pm

DeeDee wrote: ... 8 miles at 65mph caused the check engine light to come on, and the scooter to go into limp mode.

Eight miles at a true 65 mph and mild overheating of an a/c scoot, even one with an oil cooler, doesn't seem unreasonable. 60+, for me, would be a rarely-used, short-burst mode.

It's the moderate speed/distance thing that concerns - a couple hours at 45-50ish, I don't want to be sweating the temps...it would, for instance, take me 90 minutes just to get from home to the Genuine dealer, and would dobtless include sitting in traffic jams (metro DC).

Absent any formal study, I'm trying to get a picture of how widespread the thing is, if it's even for real.

How have the 170s sold anyhow - how many are in use?

And how are other 125 a/c scoot makers avoiding this? Or are they?

GregsBuddy · Post by **GregsBuddy** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:32 pm

My 170i has ~4,000 miles and has no starting or running issues and never has. I take it on the highway for up to ten miles at a time and don't run it wide open but do ride it at ~65MPH INDICATED. I don't run it wide open very often but am not afraid to do so.
Love this scoot'!

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:33 pm

GregsBuddy wrote:My 170i has ~4,000 miles and has no starting or running issues and never has. I take it on the highway for up to ten miles at a time and don't run it wide open but do ride it at ~65MPH INDICATED. I don't run it wide open very often but am not afraid to do so.
Love this scoot'!

Very good to hear!

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:30 pm

AFAIK, the Buddy Kick isn't a PGO scoot (nor Taiwan for that matter), so should have not have any of the temperature issues, perceived or otherwise

Correction - I may have had that confused with the other one! Sorry, it does look like the J-Bubu, which may be good or bad news for you with the heat programming. Back when Genuine had a bigger service department, one could send their computer in and get it re-flashed to adjust the heat-cycle temperature higher. It worked for my old Blur.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:57 pm

Yeah, it's my understanding that it's a slightly-modified-for-the-US PGO-J-Bubu, sooooo, it's "their" EFI unit.

Still lookin' to hear from more Hoolie/Bud 170i riders...

..and wondering why Kymco, Yamaha, et al are producing FI 125s without heat drama...

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:00 am

I give. Who are all these people who own PGO scooters that can't be operated for more than 30 minutes without an extended cool down? You talk about it as though it is a common experience. And you don't even seem to know how many thousands (worldwide - hundreds of thousands) of EFIed PGO scooters are on the road. This is the Modern Buddy website, the largest collection of owners of PGO scooters in the US. So, how many people have reported the experience you describe. Perhaps you should do a poll. Sometimes it is hard to get people to report something that did not happen, but it may be worth a try.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:37 am

You know, Dooglas, you're right. Thanks for your input.

Meanwhile:

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/g ... t-26946439 ,

to wit:

" 89 degrees today, it had the overheat at 45mph after 20 minutes, I think its overheating too much, will drop off at the shop for the full work up. if nothing is wrong, I guess I am looking for a new scoot."

It was the owner's second episode - shop had the bike for three weeks...

But you're correct in that lots of people - millions, probably - are perfectly happy with theirs.

dasscooter · Post by **dasscooter** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:04 pm

My co-worker crossed the Causeway on his Hooligan last week - 25 miles at 65MPH in 95+ degree heat and didn't complain of any issues. If you need to go faster/further than that, you need a bigger scooter anyway.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:28 pm

dasscooter wrote:My co-worker crossed the Causeway on his Hooligan last week - 25 miles at 65MPH in 95+ degree heat and didn't complain of any issues. If you need to go faster/further than that, you need a bigger scooter anyway.

Good for 'im.

Now; who said anything about going faster? Nobody.

cummingsjc · Post by **cummingsjc** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:46 pm

As with any maintenance related issue discussed on a forum, the issues tend to get over-blown to the point where it seems like every bike is having the problem. Generally, folks don't get on a forum to report their scooter rode flawlessly that day so for everyone who had a unique issue with their bike there were probably hundreds or thousands of folks that didn't.

I have seen a small number of folks on this and various other websites report issues with the Hooligan having some issues with heat but it definitely isn't anywhere close to every bike out there (not even a large minority) and I haven't ever heard of the 170 having heat issues (same engine as the Hooligan, as I understand it). There doesn't seem to be an epidemic of Genuine EFI scooters breaking down due to heat related issues. If there was, other folks would probably have weighed in on this issue by now. My advice is to buy the Buddy Kick 125 if you think it will suit your needs. If not, don't buy it.

dasscooter · Post by **dasscooter** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:30 pm

redhandmoto wrote:
dasscooter wrote:My co-worker crossed the Causeway on his Hooligan last week - 25 miles at 65MPH in 95+ degree heat and didn't complain of any issues. If you need to go faster/further than that, you need a bigger scooter anyway.
Good for 'im.

Now; who said anything about going faster? Nobody.

Okay...

If you think a possible issue with PGO's fuel injection is a deal breaker, go buy a Vespa and report back in a year.

GregsBuddy · Post by **GregsBuddy** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:15 pm

Owning two new or newish Piaggio products and having owned several Japanese and Taiwanese scoot's my OPINION is that the Japanese and Taiwanese scoot's are more reliable and the Piaggios are more fun to ride. Pure OPINION on my part.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:59 pm

cummingsjc wrote:As with any maintenance related issue discussed on a forum, the issues tend to get over-blown to the point where it seems like every bike is having the problem...

Quite true. Tiny problem, tiny. Tiny problem, though, across platforms, first with the Blur, then more rarely with the Bud 170i, and lately with the Hooligan. Addressed by PGO early on, but - maybe? - not entirely put to bed.

Some worthy gent has ventured an irrelevant and limp foray into cleverness, suggesting that I try another marque for a year. How was he to know that I have long ago done so, and found there the same trouble vexing others? Well. he wasn't, so as with all receipt of unsolicited & pointless advice, I give a bit in return: stop coming unarmed to a battle of wits.

Scooter forums are a tremendous and valuable resource. Would that we all had enjoyed that kind of support when I began buying bikes in 1964. Yet Modern Buddy doesn't have the traffic it did in 2008 when I joined. Few scooter-centric sites do anymore.

So... I had a research question, but the available population for query is much shrunk. I expanded to search websites in .au, in Europe, the Philippines, and even Taiwan itself, getting almost nothing. You gotta conclude: an absence of complaints may mean that people are happy with trouble-free scoots; why, that's an answer too.

Ride safely, ride lots.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:51 pm

I bought one of the first Zuma 125 EFI scooters and I think it went into "safe mode" maybe twice. First time it was crazy stupid hot and I was riding with a bunch of stock 50cc scoots and the second was when my wife and I were 2 up going over a steep bridge when it was stupid hot out. Other then that, I think I put 22,000 trouble free miles on it before installing a bbk. The Zuma did have the simple solution of swapping the 02 sensor out for a wide band, making heat control user doable (more fuel=cooler temps). Yes, it was no longer emissions legal but we dont get smog checks here. I know of one Buddy 170i and the thing must be a tank. The owner puts tons of miles on it and never has anything bad to say about it when I cross paths with him.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:53 pm

I'm friends with a local genuine dealer. The fuel injected PGO's have all been good bikes. The only bike he said that has really sucked in the last few years has been the stella auto. Have they seen some problems? Yes a few but nothing serious. If you were really worried you could always move the heat sensor or put a thermal spacer under it. The dealer says the Jbubu is the best bike genuine has imported yet. Too bad they have NO legroom haha.

Also the buddy 170 uses a keihin efi controller and throttle body. Kymco uses them as well on their bigger bikes.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:37 pm

Thanks, lovemysan. Appreciate the "live" input.

I also had been pals with a local Genuine/Vespa dealer (now gone) who was similarly reassuring after the early Blur reports. Good to hear that a key component is in widespread use by an even larger manufacturer (as Kymco is, worldwide).

As Mr Cummingsjc pointed out above, even sporadic glitch reports loom large when scented by potential buyers and the paranoid. I have noted those I've found, and it ain't the it-started-gagging-while-I-was-doing-62-in-August stories that raise eyebrows; it's the I-was-doing-45-mph-for-20-minutes that catches the eye.

Not strictly objective, of course, but in motorsports generally all you pretty much ever see are anecdotes. And anecdotes raise defensive ire and hard feelings among aficionados of the brand.

The legroom, btw, at my own test-sit, was just fine for me and I got a long inseam. Credit to the benchy seat.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:46 pm

sc00ter wrote:I bought one of the first Zuma 125 EFI scooters and I think it went into "safe mode" maybe twice. First time it was crazy stupid hot and I was riding with a bunch of stock 50cc scoots and the second was when my wife and I were 2 up going over a steep bridge when it was stupid hot out. Other then that, I think I put 22,000 trouble free miles on it before installing a bbk. The Zuma did have the simple solution of swapping the 02 sensor out for a wide band, making heat control user doable (more fuel=cooler temps). Yes, it was no longer emissions legal but we dont get smog checks here. I know of one Buddy 170i and the thing must be a tank. The owner puts tons of miles on it and never has anything bad to say about it when I cross paths with him.

Huh; well there ya go: my own Z125 never overheated while OEM stock, and I used to hammer it.

And then...well, many Zumerians were heard wishing aloud for just a little more, that the 125 was a 150, and so the seductive aftermarket came to be, and I bit with a 164 bbk, an upgear, and an oil cooler. Which lasted about 600 miles before Chernobyling, even unto the piston, cylinder, and forged con-rod. Personal riding nowadays is more...modest.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:12 pm

I did the 155 no name kit, larger injector, optimized flow work on the stock head and a bunch of transmission work. Would just clip 70 mph in optimal conditions. Blasted outta the hole and handled a passenger much better. It did another 15,000 miles before a electrical gremlin got the best of me and I parted ways with it. Also hated all the crappy all show/no go rear shocks that flooded the market. Bunch of Chinese knock-off junk. I bought a 125 Buddy again (2nd Buddy 125) for its painfully simple technology. It has never let me down and is plenty powerful for what I use it for.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:35 am

yeah, fun while it lasted. Had kept the stock components & returned it to 125; 125; sold a year later to chase something new...Z125 is a brick, ok.

Forgot another farkle: hand-made ss pipe - sounded great. That and the improved final drive were money well spent. They stayed in, of course; somewhere, it scoots on still, fer sher.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:23 pm

redhandmoto wrote:yeah, fun while it lasted. Had kept the stock components & returned it to 125; 125; sold a year later to chase something new...Z125 is a brick, ok.

Forgot another farkle: hand-made ss pipe - sounded great. That and the improved final drive were money well spent. They stayed in, of course; somewhere, it scoots on still, fer sher.

I have a friend who has a 158cc zuma with porting, cam, exhaust, variator. It runs really strong. 72 mph with a 225lb rider. My buddy 161 can barely keep up with me a 250lb rider. I can tune the trans for 0-50 and out run him but tops out in the low 60s and he scoots past me.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:41 am

It's a great platform: solid, planted frame. Well, past all that now. Stock reliability, decent performance, parts availability above all else. And of course, aesthetics.

Case in point - with 4T, liquid cooling gets you better efficiency, power, mileage. Only a few l/c bikes around in this engine size range, and we had one for a year; '13 PCX150, chosen using just logic. Absolutely aces: 62mph by GPS, fuel stingy, comfortable once the seat was dealt with, reasonable price.

But just hated the looks of the thing. considered the HD200, carb notwithstanding, but the plastics...

Now, touring times are over, so the a/c compromise is acceptable, given the limited continuous-running distances ahead (no more than a couple-three hours, and rarely at that). Want step-through. No Vespas, thanks.

Which leads you back to Genuine, or maybe, the new SYM-built Lance "200s", which are just in. Spoke with a guy at Alliance intergalactic (or at least, California) headquarters within a half-hour of the first Cali Classic 220i to arrive being uncrated and fired up. Looks good on paper; wonder what the EFI module's like?

Time will tell.

Selah.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:33 am

redhandmoto wrote:So... I had a research question, but the available population for query is much shrunk. I expanded to search websites in .au, in Europe, the Philippines, and even Taiwan itself, getting almost nothing. You gotta conclude: an absence of complaints may mean that people are happy with trouble-free scoots; why, that's an answer too.

Yes, that is an answer - and the answer seems to be that there is not a substantial problem with PGO EFI systems malfunctioning and shutting the bike down. So the new question might be why you think that is not the answer you needed, or wanted?

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:08 am

Ha, SYM! Great product with lousy support. If you go that route, dont say I didnt warn you! Pay the extra and get something that is supported for the long haul.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:25 am

Dooglas wrote: So the new question might be why you think that is not the answer you needed, or wanted?

No, the question is, what makes you think so?

M'Lord, it indeed is the answer I hoped for: that people are by and large happy, that problems are rare. You have quoted me carefully; did I not say "...that's an answer, too"?

So whence this querulous and circular pretzel of language?

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:07 am

sc00ter wrote:Ha, SYM! Great product with lousy support. If you go that route, dont say I didnt warn you! Pay the extra and get something that is supported for the long haul.

Oh, yeah, there's that.

Poor tragic SYM, getting the dirty end of a bad karnic stick, just tryin' to open the doors in North America. A distributor who may have been grossly overextended as scoot sales slid off the '05-'08 peak, problems solved deus ex machina style by an apocalyptic yet timely fire, later deemed to have been arson, but nobody's charged, just one of those shit-happens things. And they weren't aces at getting parts out anyhow.

So now the scoot business ain't what it was, and it's harder to establish a network and grow, no matter the solidity of your marque. Unless you're selling TaoTaos to TaoTaorinians, and they're so cheap quality don't matter.

And this is a good case-in-point: you can't say "SYM" anyplace without getting an echo back: parts-availability-problems. Is that still accurate? I don't know; don't have one, ain't ordered parts. HD200 people seem to be getting parts ok, but some of the perception continues, and maybe in part just because people keep saying it. Like hot PGO EFIs.

Selah, v2dotO

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:19 pm

redhandmoto wrote: ......it indeed is the answer I hoped for: that people are by and large happy, that problems are rare.

Well, then that is a good thing. I was "querulous" as you put it because I never understood what had caused you to ask the question or why this thread went on so long discussing a problem that was evidently not occurring. If you end up buying one of the new Kicks, be sure and give us a report on it's performance.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:54 pm

Dooglas wrote: I never understood what had caused you to ask the question or why this thread went on so long discussing a problem that was evidently not occurring.

Except to those few to whom it did. Howsa 'bout you tell them it's all in their imaginations? Like the fella with the new Hooligan.

Do you not conduct a little research before you spend a coupla thousand frogskins?

Not sure how it is that you are so personally offended by the thread - or why you're apparently bent on typing the last word to display it.

And most odd of all - why you keep reading and showing up in it? Thought you "gave up" a few posts ago...

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:03 pm

redhandmoto wrote:And most odd of all - why you keep reading and showing up in it? Thought you "gave up" a few posts ago...

Not sure why you would be surprised that I follow a post that I have responded on. However, if you'd like me to "give up", I will oblige you.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:20 pm

Last Tag!!

luckyscroller788 · Post by **luckyscroller788** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:41 am

Assuming I am the guy mentioned above with the new Hooligan.... Yes, when I took it to the dealer, he plugged in some doohickey, watched a guage for a code of some sort of a code ( he said... "one long, one short"), then he looked at a piece of paper from Genuine and said the code was for engine high temp. , and explained to me that the brainbox will dump extra fuel into the engine , in a sense flooding it with fuel, causing it to be sluggish, in an attempt to cool down the engine. He said it is designed that way to protect the engine from catastrophy, and he also said it is a very rare occurance (in Wisconsin anyways). And yes, the day this happened to me it was very warm out, high humidity, and I was almost WOT for a good distance into a strong headwind. I have 1900 miles on it now, and I expect it to last me many many more.
My wife has a Buddy 170i with about the same amount of miles on it, and has not had any issues at all. She doesn't ever go WOT for more than a few seconds, because she can leave me in the dust if we try to race( I blame that on my size compared to hers)

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:21 pm

This is good to hear, even if you are not that particular author.

The full post I'd read said (emphasis in 'bold' is mine):

Anyone else notice this? I have had my Hooligan for several months, and commonly drive it 55mph for 20 miles or more. It does just fine under 70 degrees ambient, but the warmer it gets the less I can drive before this sputtering starts. If I slow down, it goes away, but if I keep it up, the orange light comes on, max RPM goes down 20% (5-6k full throttle) and the idle RPM goes up (2k at stop). I let it cool down and everything is fine. I have tried "no ethanol" gas, resetting the EMS, checking the oil. Nothing alters it. I am starting to wonder if its a hardwired setting to prevent overheating. I hate to take it into the shop for 2 weeks just to hear that, but, maybe something is wrong and I should. It would be great to know if anyone else has noticed this. thanks!

worse today, heat at 85 degrees, started malfunctioning at 6 miles, and now the idle changed to "dead". I had to reset the EMS to start it. will take it to the shop and report back

Dealer says Genuine says its a safety feature to keep the engine from overheating, it has a couple of stages, mild, with an initial small decrease in RPM, and a more severe restriction to 50% power. let it cool off, restart it, and it will be fine. nothing to fix.

I really enjoy the machine in every other way - will have to weigh to keep it or trade up to something liquid cooled.

more to come

89 degrees today, it had the overheat at 45mph after 20 minutes, I think its overheating too much, will drop off at the shop for the full work up. if nothing is wrong, I guess I am looking for a new scoot. maybe honda PCX 150 or the fly 150... I really liked my fly 50.

7/2 - update - 3 weeks in the shop, the whole thing torn down to the engine, no sign of a problem, still overheats all the time and makes a very odd upper pitch grind noise.
so long Hooligan, It was a lot of fun while it lasted.

Hello new ride, Vespa GTS 300 sport. Zoom Zoom. (liquid cooled speed)"."

This was the author's only post at that site; no follow-up appeared. As we see, he was thinking about replacing the scoot with an l/c Vespa. Was that you, luckyscroller? With the 45-for-20 episode, and three weeks in the shop?

Lemme be clear: the Kick is a scooter that I want to buy, but not if it's gonna crap out after 20 minutes at 45 mph, even if it is 89 degrees out.

We can speculate: perhaps the protective software is programmed to kick-in at too low a temperature? Perhaps some of the EFI modules escaped re-programming and made it onto bikes?

I don't know, and I don't know if PGO knows. The point is that riding season can be hot where I am, and one might reasonably be pissed if the thing gagged during a mild errand run. Take a look at the first post in this thread: I am asking for simple feedback from real-world users, and asking within the Genuine community.

Simple enough, right? Except that what comes back is:

a) a discourse on causes of sputtering complaints and causes on scooters of all kinds from persons who do not own an EFI Genuine bike;

b) good input from a user who has had zero problems hammering it on the highway for a goodly time;

c) a mention of Genuine's "re-flash" of EFI modules to correct found problems;

d) an implicit challenge to my justification in even asking, citing the lack of complaint among millions of users, accusing me of calling it a "common" problem when I clearly stated that I was attempting to discover how common a problem it was or was not;

e) an obtuse suggestion that I must be wanting a faster bike that misses the point by a mile, by a continent, but was apparently a not-to-be-missed opportunity for weak snark;

f) a reiteration that overheating isn't really a common problem;

g) an observation about relative fun vs. reliability between Asia and Europe;

h) a solid testament to problem-free operation made by an actual owner;

i) a reasoned discussion of dependability and good suggestions for resolution;

j) an interesting cooperative foray into a little back-and-forth about another brand.

We may gather that it is not a common problem, but has happened. So.

Thanks to actual users reporting back. Thanks to persons of good will and cheer. Thanks to those who read and understood the matter, and responded in kind.

Thanks and best wishes for grace to purveyors of superior attitude, condescension, and of the off-the-wall, whatever their undiscovered and unrealized motivations may be.

Selah.

luckyscroller788 · Post by **luckyscroller788** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:08 am

Bringing back the old topic again. Since I hit 1900 miles my scooter has been in the shop for exactly the same conditions described by redhandmoto three times now, and will be four times by this time tomorrow.I haven't tried switching gases, but pretty much everything else has been tried by a very qualified dealer, with help they have been getting from Genuine. I will say the dealer has been great with helping me try to get back to fun scootin, but they don't know what to try next. The latest attempt at solving it was a crankcase breather. I wasn't to happy with that addition, as in order to check my oil level I have to remove it as it mounts into the dipstick hole! Anyways, I picked up the scooter, the temp outside was 87 degrees. I never went full throttle , but got it up to 55 on the speedo. It again began its 'lagging' action after about 8 to 10 minutes of riding. I stopped for about 15 minutes in a nice shady spot while I waited for my wife to meet up with me ( shes on a 2012 Buddy 170i). We then headed off on a ride about 15 miles. She could tell my scooter was running really sluggish.we stopped at Culvers for about a half hour. On our return trip (temp was now 79 or 80 degrees), she took the Hoolie, and I took her buddy. It didn't take her long to see why I am so disappointed in my scooter. I'm a hundred pounds more than her, and on her Buddy I could blow her away when she was on the Hoolie. After a half dozen miles, we traded back scooters. Then I had a longer stretch, where I had it hovering between 53 and 55 on the speedo. About 4 miles of that, and the hot engine light came on again, and it REALLY started running rough. As I came to a stop, she coughed and backfired. I shut it down to let it cool a while, before plugging in the diagnostic tool thingy the dealer gave me, and clearing the EMS code. The whole lower back half of my scooter is covered in oil, I think from the backfiring and blowing oil up through the crankcase breather tube the dealer just installed today. So , its going back again tomorrow, and hopefully they can figure it out soon. This weekend is a HUGE scootering weekend here, with Viva Lake Geneva scooter rally happening, and I will be very disappointed if I can not go on a couple of the rides. If I find anything more out about my problems, I will be sure to post it.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:19 am

Man, I am really, really sorry to hear this. Best of luck to you.

Camperdog · Post by **Camperdog** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:25 am

I think this is an interesting situation we're seeing. And together I think we can solve it.

Let's collect some data. So as not to hijack this thread I an going to start a new one. Let's watch the details and see if we can narrow the area to focus on and find a solution.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:57 am

Thank you, Camperdog. Seems to be a very infrequently-found thing; hope there will be sufficient data collected to be helpful.

iwannascoot · Post by **iwannascoot** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:34 pm

I really don't like the oil cooler on my Buddy but the more I learn about this issue, the less I dislike it. I hope you get this fixed soon although it seems like something the dealer cannot figure out easily.

Billy

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:46 pm

luckyscroller788, has the shop checked the stator? It's early for a stator failure, but it's not unheard of.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:43 pm

iwannascoot wrote:I really don't like the oil cooler on my Buddy but the more I learn about this issue, the less I dislike it. I hope you get this fixed soon although it seems like something the dealer cannot figure out easily.

Billy

I always thought the oil cooler was a good idea, being mechanically 'repressed' I didn't quite understand it's importance but I suppose it does it's job. On my '08 Buddy 150 it is however behind the battery box as opposed to in front of it as on the 170i.

luckyscroller788 · Post by **luckyscroller788** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:39 pm

k1dude wrote:luckyscroller788, has the shop checked the stator? It's early for a stator failure, but it's not unheard of.

I am not 100% sure, but I know they have tried many things.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:35 am

I would personally mount a CHT gauge on the hooligan. Find out if it is really getting hot, or just a sensor SAYING it is hot. Determine that first.

Is it a crap sensor/ computer. Or is your hooligan really overheating?

If it IS overheating. then find out why. Air intake leak is my guess.

BUT, my money is on a turd sensor or computer.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am

viney266 wrote:I would personally mount a CHT gauge on the hooligan. Find out if it is really getting hot, or just a sensor SAYING it is hot. Determine that first.

Is it a crap sensor/ computer. Or is your hooligan really overheating?

If it IS overheating. then find out why. Air intake leak is my guess.

BUT, my money is on a turd sensor or computer.

Thank you for this excellent, rational suggestion.

luckyscroller788 · Post by **luckyscroller788** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:37 am

viney266 wrote:I would personally mount a CHT gauge on the hooligan. Find out if it is really getting hot, or just a sensor SAYING it is hot. Determine that first.

.

Great suggestion, something I am planning on doing. Is there a certain guage that will suit me best?