Long case GY6 - has it been done?

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BMW_Art
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Long case GY6 - has it been done?

Post by BMW_Art »

I'm new to the forum, but have ridden motorcycles for over 35 years. My wife and I just bought and RV and decided a couple of Buddy 150s would be great as local transportation when we travel. They are both 2009 models. I've had mine out on the roads and it tops out at about 55 real world speed. Speedometer is 62-65.

That's fine when we are traveling together, but as I may also use it to get to work on days my wife and I can't car pool I'd like to be able to get it up to 75-80 mph. I've seen the BBK threads by Kaos and know about the upgrades to the existing motors, but couldn't find any complete GY6 200 cc long case installs. As there are several vendors selling this motor I'm wondering if anyone has bolted on the stock long case motor to a Buddy 150 with success. I personally don't need a kick starter so that's not a concern for me. And if the only real issue is I need a longer shock, well I'll buy a 200 cc today and install it.

On the other hand, if I need to fabricate motor mounts, reengineer the scooter to fit the motor, then I'll just skip it and go for a 4 valve head and BBK with a long stroke crank.

Thanks,

Art
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Post by sc00ter »

Why? Just pick up something bigger. Im sure someone has made a Buddy go those speeds but how reliable will it be? I would just up-size to a bigger/faster scooter but it will be interesting to see what others have to say when they chime in.
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Post by babblefish »

As far as motor mounts go, the long block should bolt right in as the mounting points are the same. Having never done this conversion, the only challenges that I can think of at the moment are the rear shock mounting/length, brake linkage, muffler mount, and air filter box. Make sure the rear shock chosen has adjustable preload and rebound dampening. You'll also have to find 10" tires that are rated at the speeds you're looking for. None of these are insurmountable, but I question the safety of going a sustained 80 MPH on little 10" tires. But, it certainly would be interesting.
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Post by DeeDee »

The stock Buddy engine in yours will outlast a $300 Chinese GY6 5 to 1. Buddy's quality is really second to none. You want to go 80 mph on 3.5x10 inch tires? Sell it and buy a Vespa GT200.
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Post by Syd »

To get significant speed improvement you need to modify the final drive (or make an engine that already spins faster than 8k rpms spin faster).
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Post by BMW_Art »

FWIW tires are not a problem. There are high speed rated tires out there. I'm not looking to go 80 Mph sustained, but when I want to pass someone ... I really want to pass someone and I don't want to do it going 3 mph faster than they are going. Plus when I need to use a highway for a short distance I sure as heck want to do it going more than 55 mph.

There are many gear change options available so I don't think it's that is an obstacle. As for getting something bigger - don't want to. Mostly due to weight limitations. The Buddy is light. I can fit two of them on the back of the RV without issue.

As an FYI, for those that just don't understand the need to be able to go faster than stock,really just accept that some people need to do it. There is no need to recommend something larger, because if I wanted to do that, I'd just buy another motorcycle. And honestly, I still have a longer term plan to do just that. But the motorcycle weights close too, or over, the weight limit I'm trying to stay close to for use on the RV. Total is 500 - 600 pounds.

I already know I can put a BBK on the Buddy 150 to achieve my goals, but if I can do so with a 200 cc stock motor that just might be a better choice. Might not even be a Chinese version. There are Taiwanese versions out there too. Big question that remains is still ... is it reasonably possible to do it?

If so, what does reasonably really mean? Babblefish kindly pointed out some of the issues as did Syd and I do appreciate it. But if anyone knows of someone that has installed a long case, I'd sure like to hear more about it as the fewer surprises the better.
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Post by Dooglas »

sc00ter wrote:Just pick up something bigger.
I am with this point of view. I am a big fan of the Buddy and we have owned one for ten years. I would not, however, want to go 80 mph on that scooter. The small wheels and tires, the suspension, the brakes, the handling, the light weight frame are really not set up for those kinds of speeds IMO. That is why I also own a Vespa GTS.
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Post by BMW_Art »

That's interesting. I have not had any issues with the wheels as of yet but do plan to upgrade the suspension. The stock is too harsh for daily riding on the surface streets I use. I had planned to balance the wheels & tires better as well. It's not an issue at 55, but higher speeds require higher attention to tolerances. Brakes, I don't have enough information on that yet. They suit my needs at the moment and stop the scooter quickly. I've been using rear drums since the 70's so am quite familiar with their use and limitations.

Handling, well I'll agree it's light but again not an issue for me. I've ridden lighter models faster. Grew up with supped up mopeds, bikes, and other light weight frames. Going fast and maintains control isn't difficult if the vehicle capabilities are taken in to account. That and safely gear. As I've grown older I seem to use more of it.

Out here in CA sometimes the highway merge speed is 80 mph. Yep 80 mph just to merge and get on the highway. I bought a 250cc motorcycle for my daughter when she was in high school so she'd have her own transportation. I drove it a bit to make sure it was sound and was surprised to have to merge at its top speed - going uphill no less - that day. It would do 85 going downhill.

I really do want the scooter to be able to reach speeds of 75 - 80. More important than top speed though is the torque to accelerate between 55 & 70 just to pass with a safety margin on local streets. We have many 55 mph city streets. Sometimes the local traffic is slow and you want to pass. Sometimes you get a nut job and just want to put some distance between you.

I'm still just not sure in the best way to get there. Long case 200 cc motor which offers future upgrade/maintenance potential or a BBK where if I have a piston, cylinder, etc. failure I have to replace them instead of just an oversized ring or piston size upgrade.

That and overall weight are primary considerations at the moment. I did see Kaos was going to try a 200 cc long case, but apparently the thread was never completed and his web site is gone. So just looking for more information to help me make a decision.
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Post by Dooglas »

BMW_Art wrote: It's not an issue at 55,
Exactly. :wink:
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Post by BMW_Art »

Well I haven't found it to be an issue at 75+ yet either. So far I haven't found any threads on issues above 60 mph yet. Still searching though.
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Post by cummingsjc »

I always love these threads where someone buys a Buddy 50/125/150/170 and is happy with the bike except the top speed and wants information on how to totally mess with the bike to make it go much faster. They always end up in the "just buy a bigger bike" vs "willing to spend inordinate amounts of money and time to make it work" argument. They are always great fun! 😉
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Post by BMW_Art »

Glad I can entertain you. As previously stated, if I wanted a bigger scooter I'd have done so in the first place. I'm less interested in the BBK options as I already know what I can do there, but have yet to see the question I asked really answered.

And no, I will not be buying a bigger scooter. Not winding up in that camp as you seem to think. Truely, it is sad to see such negativity in regard to performance modifications. And it is true that I personally enjoy working on simple engines like this. It is so easy to gain access to. No special lifts are required. Few special tools and those are inexpensive. As a hobbiest I do enjoy the upgrade process. It's cheap therapy.

I purposely bought a used scooter so I could modify it to meet my needs and requirements with a reasonable budget. I choose the Buddy because of its light weight compared to larger scooters. So as stated a larger scooter is out of the question.

Personally, I'd find it better if people that have nothing to offer from experience kept their postings/thought to themselves as they provide no useful or valuable information. Now if you have hands on personal experience that might be a different situation entirely.
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Post by babblefish »

BMW_Art, I get what you're looking for; light weight, small package, easy to transport, and fast enough to get out of it's own way, but more importantly, get out of the way of zombie cage drivers. Going with a generic GY6 engine is probably your best bet to get where you're going. I also understand your reason for wanting the long case engine; a longer wheelbase will be more stable at higher speeds. To achieve the speeds you're after, a change in transmission gearsets will be required and as you alluded, there are plenty of these available for generic GY6 vs the PGO rendition. Going to a lower gear ratio will require more torque from the engine to get the most out of it, so more displacement is definitely a must have. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but GY6 engines are available in two forms (other than length), an "A" case and a "B" case. The stock Buddy engine is an "A" case. I'm not sure which type of case the 200cc engine you spoke of has, but if it's not a "B" case, then I would highly recommend looking for one of those instead. The "B" case can be taken as far as 232cc and most have provision for an oil cooler (a must have). In case you're not familiar with the difference, the "B" case has it's cylinder studs spaced further apart to allow for larger bores without sacrificing durability due to thin cylinder walls. In addition, using a longer stroke crank will not only increase displacement, but will make the biggest difference in the amount of low end torque. It will limit max RPM, but with a lower gear ratio, who cares?

As far as the rear shock is concerned, I don't think the long case will be a problem. Just find a quality longer shock that has good dampening control, or at least one with adjustable rebound dampening. The shock will be more "laid down", which would be a good thing because it will provide a more progressive feel and a little less harshness. You may have to increase the firmness of the spring to compensate for the change in geometry though. I've been eyeballing YSS shocks, but they're not the easiest to find for a reasonable price, but are a quality piece.

I would also consider replacing the front forks/shocks with those from NCY. The stock forks are OK for the speeds that the Buddy was intended for (barely), but at higher speeds, they will be easily overwhelmed.

The stock rear brake cable may not have enough slack to allow for a longer wheelbase. You can either have a custom cable made, or find one from a larger scooter that has a long wheelbase and uses the same adjustment rod setup at the rear wheel. The lever end should all be the same.

The exhaust and air cleaner box will require custom brackets/mounts, but this should be pretty easy to do.

This is actually a pretty interesting project, something I wouldn't mind doing on my own Buddy. But, I have too many other projects and things taking up my time and more importantly, money. Though if I run across a used long case engine for cheap...

Hope some of this helps and please do keep us updated on what you come up with.
Last edited by babblefish on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by kmrcstintn »

if ya want long life from that Buddy...leave it alone! light modding will get ya a bit more and keep it alive a good long time! heavy modding will shorten the life and you spend more money doing a rebuild much sooner; if ya want faster then go bigger; something like a Blur 220 or Suzuki Burgman 200, or Yamaha S-Max 155 (supposedly tuned for 70+ mph all day); leave more time to travel during the commute on your Buddy 150 and enjoy the ride!
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Post by Christophers »

Hey Art

I say "go for it"! And let us know how it goes!!

I think the answer to your question is "No", probably no one on the forum has installed a long case GY6 engine in their Buddy, so I encourage you to do it and let us know what it takes and how it goes.

On the other hand, I think what you're hearing is a lot of good feedback about the unsuitability of the Buddy platform for building a scooter that goes 75-80 mph. Having built two such Buddies I completely concur. The Buddy 125/150/170i platform is just not the right platform to put that type of power into.

"But wait!" you say. "Didn't you just tell me that you have done it? And done so twice?"

"Why, yes, I did just say that." And I am currently riding the second of those Buddy scooters and enjoying the heck out of it! So, I totally understand all of the reasons that you tried to convey as to why this is something to be desired. However, neither of the times that I built such a Buddy scooter did I do so by installing a long case GY6 motor, which is what you seem intent on doing, so unfortunately I can't really help with that approach.

However, I would love to hear how this little project turns out, what kind of performance you achieve, what you think of the end results, etc. It sounds like another way to achieve a Buddy scoot that reliably and unabashedly spits out 75-80 mph whenever you want it!! And I don't think anyone here is negative about squeezing all the power you can out of a Buddy. I think it is just people trying to help each other get the best scooting experience. I happen to think along the same lines as you do in those regards, but I also see exactly what the rest of the folks are saying when they encourage you to consider alternative platforms. So go for it!! And let us know how it goes. It's stories like these that make this place fun.

And if you ever come out west to the L.A. area (especially since you can trailer your scoots), hook up for a ride with the LASG (Los Angeles Scooter Group).

Cheers,
Christopher
Last edited by Christophers on Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Christopher, well thanks for the reply but it should be noted that I'm not dead set on using a long case motor to achieve my goals. A BBK and transmission gear to handle the additional rpm/tourqe is just fine. My only goal is reaching a sustained 75-80 mph. If that requires a BBK, better shocks, better clutch, better variator, higher speed rated tires, and well balanced wheels then that's what will do.

I only brought up the long case as an option because it already has the cubic centimeters at a potentially lower price point. The concerns I have with a long case is fabrication related. I don't want to hire someone to create custom components to install the engine and peripherals as that vould just create a hanger queen. I also don't want to go to a 12" wheel in the rear. I saw that Kaos started something like that, but don't know if it was ever completed.

If I can install a long case motor using existing components with minimal - read do it yourself home made brackets for carb and muffler - then it seems doable. Opinions in regard to alternative platforms - read bigger scooters - just are not needed. I have a weight restriction. And size restriction. So there is no alternative platform options. I don't think some people understand that at all.

Babblefish does and the information he provided is not only useful but highly appreciated. I've already read his posts regarding his trials and that too was very useful. He's been there and done it. So it seems have you.

My personal view is going 75-80 on a scooter that only weighs about 150 lbs isn't something to be afraid of or too dangerous to do at all. For those that want to do it, it should simply be accepted that it is their choice. It not up to others to nay-say it because they don't accept it, are fearful of it, or just plain don't think it should be done. There's more than enough of that in the political laws out there now. I'm not a fan of people that try to produce laws to limit choice. Hate it in fact. I wear gear and always use a helmet for example, but there should not be a law to require it. People that die because they don't wear a helmet, ride a scooter or motorcycle, or drive a car are just examples of Darwinism or bad luck. People should just accept it and move on. Not try to enforce their views by creating laws to limit choice. Thats just so sad.

It is apparent though that I am going to have to do more of my own research to determine if a long case will fit. What type/size wheel will be required, and what carb/muffler fabrication will be required before I can make a determination as to its feasability.

I should also note for that are concerned that longevity isn't an issue. I'm only going to be putting about 2000 miles a year on it. If that. From what I have seen a BBK can go between 10,000 - 20,000 on average. If I only get 6,000 I'll be happy with that.

Scooters are inexpensive. So I might just buy another Buddy or similar model if I can keep the weight down while I try a long case upgrade. Of course I won't know that until I try the upgrade and find out - darn it doesn't fit - and have to delay the project. I will need two functional scooters by Thanksgiving as that's when I plan to take a RV trip with them on the back.

By the way if I sound pompous, unthankful, or just too rigid I do apologize for that as ithat is not my intention. I am thankful for the replies but would just like to keep them on topic as I laid out the basics - including the limitations - and would just like to keep moving forward.
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Taida short case

Post by BMW_Art »

Well, this may be more feasible than I thought. If a bit more expensive than I want. Taida makes a short case 180 cc engine. Can be maxed out at 228 cc. But it costs more than the entire scooter. About $2000. There are also rebuild kits - basic block - and BBK. I'm going to have to do more research on them to see if I could use them or not. If so, might be worthwhile to look for a used one. Or a last ditch just throw money at it solution. :)

But I do wonder, if Taida makes one, maybe there are others out there too?

What I did find is that a long case in general is about 2" longer than a short case. That does not seem to be an issue, however, in some cases a short case to long case upgrade puts the rear wheel off center. These are not Buddy upgrades I've found, but suspect the same issue could occur. I'm not willing to upgrade to a long case if the wheels aren't in the same line.
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Post by sc00ter »

Whats that saying? Speeds just a question of money. How fast do you wanna go? Getting the wheels to line up is not as hard as you think. We have crammed tuned 2 stroke motors in Honda Ruckus frames. Zuma 125 motors into Honda Metro's. Even some crazy person put a 400cc Burgman motor into a Zuma Bug-Eye 50cc 2 stroke chassis! All have required a bit of alignment work. You will need to do some fab work to get it to work OR pay someone to follow your plans and make stuff for you-we have done both. Do you have a garage or a place to do the work? If so then go for it! Heres a thought. Pick up a beater Buddy while you do your motor swap. You will have something to ride and use for reference if needed, then sell the beater when your done. The Scrappy Dog website sells quality GY6 based motors for a fair price, just not sure how big cc's they sell at the moment. Taida makes great stuff but I have had luck with off brand stuff. Correct tuning makes all the difference. Good stuff will fail in 30 minutes if not set up right and cheap stuff will run for years if set up right. So, back to that saying....
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote:I'm not dead set on using a long case motor to achieve my goals.
If this is the case then there is a lot of information here (both as already discussed topics and as raw expertise) to modding a Buddy to achieve 75-80 mph. I wouldn't necessarily try to steer the conversation to long case GY6 engines when more direct means have already been tried successfully.

Both of the scoots that I built were built on a stock Buddy engine case and will hit a sustained GPS verified 80 mph, but just because they can do that doesn't mean that I think that it's a good idea for me to run them that fast. In fact, I completely agree with what everyone else has posted in this thread: A Buddy is just not the right platform to do this on. Nevertheless, they can do it.

That said, you're actually starting from a good place for what you want. The Buddy final drive gears come in three ratios:
Psycho < 125 < 150/170i
9.5:1 < 9.06:1 < 8.25:1

http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27524
http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30489
http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27798

A modified standard Buddy engine case will give you a engine that is capable of driving the scooter to speeds limited only by the transmission and by the effective red line of the engine (when you start to float valves). In this case, starting with the tallest final drive ratios will gives you a scooter that is more comfortable at higher speeds. (In your case, the 150 final drive gear ratios.)

The way that I did it was:
- Ceramic big bore cylinder kit
- Stroker crank (15 mm pin)
- Big valve head
- Carburetor and intake manifold
- Oil cooler
- Crank case and valve cover breather
- Exhaust

The 150 already comes with an oil cooler.
You can bore the engine cases for another handful of cc displacement (I did), but I wouldn't recommend this route.
I would recommend the largest ceramic cylinder kit that doesn't require case boring (!!!).

You do not need a new cam...
(You do not need to bore the cases...)

Throw these mods on one of your bikes, take a look at the oil catch can/return system on my Psycho and install something similar (Scooter Gallery - you'll actually need this), and come out and ride. We'll see what you get, but my guess is that you'll be happy!! Whether you'll be happy trying to run a (Buddy) scooter that is capable of 80 mph at a sustained 80 mph is a different question, but you'll definitely be able to do it!

Oh - and throw the NCY forks and brakes on the front and the best shock that you can on the rear of the bike. YOU DON'T NEED THESE TO DO 80 MPH, but to do a sustained 80 mph they are absolutely necessary. In my opinion the limit to a bike so-modified is not power but keeping the rubber on the pavement.

The platform is suspension limited no matter what you do, but upgrading it to what you can get is a absolute necessity if you have any dreams of doing a sustained ≥75 mph.

Also in my opinion, you're better off investing the same resources in something like a Honda Grom if you want a bike that will do a sustained 80 mph and also be capable of leaning to any appreciable angle without scraping the exhaust, center stand, frame, or drive case. But I personally have a warm spot in my heart for a scooter, so I understand if you feel the same way. It makes one smirk, in a way, to pull away from a light with the front wheel in the air and then tear off to a bona fide 80 mph on a small frame scooter... hypothetically speaking, of course. ;)
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Post by babblefish »

BMW_Art; from reading what you've been posting, I get the impression that you might be assuming that long case GY6 engines will always have larger displacements than short cases, which is not the case. Both are basically identical with the only difference being their transmission housing lengths. Also, the biggest displacement possible with an "A" case is about 205cc which involves boring out the case for a 63mm piston/cylinder and clearancing the crankcase for a +8 crankshaft (8mm longer stroke, or 65.8mm). Both of these extremes are not conducive to long engine life as the 63mm bore means a very thin cylinder wall and in order to get the 8mm of additional stroke, the connecting rod large end bearing has to be made smaller. This is the reason I suggested a "B" case which can accommodate up to 67mm bores without issue. So assuming a 67mm bore and a +6 stroker crank, you'll end up with a 225cc engine that will live. This is basically the engine that the Blur 220i uses, just a smidge bigger in displacement.
Just for reference sake, the most displacement you're going to get from a Buddy 150 engine without boring out the case is 161cc (58.5mm piston), assuming a stock crankshaft. That's only 13.5cc over stock (in actuality, 147.5cc). IMO, not enough to make a significant difference. Again, if you're after torque, a longer stroke crank is the best way to get it. So, with a 58.5mm bore and say, a +4 crank (61.8mm stroke), you'll get 166cc. With a +6 crank (63.8mm stroke), you'll have 171cc. Buddy 170i anyone?

FWIW, my Blur's crankcase is bored out enough to accept a 63mm BBK, but I'm on the fence on whether or not I want to go that route. Maybe I'll wait until the 61mm BB wears out before I consider it.

Another thing to consider is that most of the generic GY6 cases, long or short, are set-up for a drum rear brake. Now whether or not all of the brake components from the Buddy will swap over, I don't know, having never done the conversion myself.

And as Sc00ter mentioned, there are other sources for GY6 engines, A or B case, scrappydogscooters being one of them. There's also monstergy6, scooter dynasty, and gy6racingteam (on eBay). I've purchased parts from all of these vendors with nary an issue, well, I had a small issue with scrappydog, but I've gotten over it, heh.

Lastly, a Buddy weighs a bit more than 150 lbs, more like 245 lbs, wet. And I still believe a longer wheelbase afforded by a long case engine, even if it's only two inches, will make for a little better stability at higher speeds. Think drag bikes and land speed record bikes.

Sorry for all the seemingly random thoughts...things just keep falling out of my head.
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Post by lovemysan »

Ive seen the a gy6 swapped buddy 125. You have to cut the cross bar above the valve cover out to make it fit. My bike will do 74 mph gps if I tuck. It takes a good bit of road to get the last 5 mph. It doesn't feel unsafe to me. You will need tires rated for that speed. Heres the bad news, I've trashed 2 cranks now doing this.

About your engine build, if you use the buddy cases and keep the kick start you can go to 192cc. You need a long spline crank, the biggest I've found is 61.3mm. Taida makes one and I found a few others in taiwan but I'm not sure I could get them. You can use a regular gy6 crank but I don't know about the compatibility of the starter, starter clutch etc. The biggest you can bore is 63mm. The downside of boring that thin is you sacrifice durability. I wouldn't build a 4 valve, unported they suck. Its much easier to port the 2 valve heads.

I've got all the parts to assemble a 232cc, ported 4 valve, big cam, etc. You could spend $2000 on just the engine. You'd still need it tuned, custom exhaust, wiring, etc. The taida stuff feels inferior to the pgo parts.
161cc big bore kit, NCY big valve head Hand ported, NCY transmission kit, jetted and tuned. I can port your cylinder head.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Christopher, Thanks for the links. I'd already seen the last two but the first one was new to me. I don't think I want to go a sustained 80 mph, but would like a sustained 70 mph (legal limit on the highways) with bursts to pass - if needed - up to 80 mph. Suspension is already a planned upgrade for both scooters (my wife's will not have any motor modifications).

Bablefish,I knew the weight of a Buddy 150 is close to 250 lbs wet, so no worries there. Same with the long case, I know it does not have to have a larger displacement. The 57 mm (GY6-B) cases though can be bored for larger displacements. I started with the Scooter Dogs web site. So that is where my initial long case desire sprouted from as the entire motor is less than $600 and I thought it would be more reliable than a BBK.

Now that I know it is only a 180 (not a 200) and that there are short case GY6-B motors/blocks available I'm less inclined to go the long case route. It's not that it isn't doable, but it will require much more modification.

truth is, I'll know more about it this weekend when I finish tearing my wife's Buddy 150 down. She pranged it her first ride out and I need a new triple tree. I already ordered the entire assembly. And the front plastic is off. I'm going to take the rest off as I will be painting it too as part of the repair process.

Anyway, that will let me know for sure how the rear wheel cover/fender fits. The rear fender assembly with license plate. Shock. Etc. See the issue I really have with the long case is I do not want to change the geometry. No 12" or 13" wheel. I want to keep the stock 10" if at all possible.

So, now that I know of at least one manufacturer of a short case GY6-B (Taida) that uses a 10" wheel and stock is a 180 cc with the option to bore it out to a 232 I need to see if I can find any other manufacturers with a lower price point. if you know of one, please let me know.

I've already looked at the vendors you listed, but did not see a short case GY6-B that wasn't from Taida (same price point too). I'd love to find a short case GY6-B like Scoter Dog had for under $600.

So before I do anything with a BBK I need to see if I can find a short case GY6-B.
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Post by Christophers »

babblefish wrote:the most displacement you're going to get from a Buddy 150 engine without boring out the case is 161cc (58.5mm piston), assuming a stock crankshaft. That's only 13.5cc over stock (in actuality, 147.5cc). IMO, not enough to make a significant difference. Again, if you're after torque, a longer stroke crank is the best way to get it. So, with a 58.5mm bore and say, a +4 crank (61.8mm stroke), you'll get 166cc. With a +6 crank (63.8mm stroke), you'll have 171cc. Buddy 170i anyone?
Although the numbers are correct the comparison is quite misleading (Buddy 170i is a 168.9 cc engine). A well tuned 161 cc big bore Buddy 125 will out perform a factory Buddy 170i all day. Bringing a Buddy 150 up to a 166 cc or a 171 cc displacement will make a huge difference in terms what the scooter is capable of delivering.

Sure - you can go bigger with a GY6 B case - if your plan is to go crazy big and bore the engine cases out - but you're always going run up against the limits of the gearing and suspension, and that happens sooner than you might think. The platform is just not right to build a scooter that goes a sustained 70-80 mph.

If you are boring the cases I would stick with the stock PGO Buddy case. As lovemysan says, the quality of the PGO parts is really superior. And if you have to bore, I also agree that opting for a smaller cylinder to keep more material is a better option (e.g. the 61 mm BB mentioned by babblefish vs the 63 mm big bore).

Of course there will be moments when you run into the power limits of the engine, no matter how big you bore it out, but most of the time you are going to run into the transmission and gearing limits of the platform - when you're not running into the suspension limits (even with upgraded suspension).

Stick with the stock cases, get the 58.5 mm cylinder - or bore the stock cases to 61 mm - and focus on the top end. You'll have all the power the platform can handle. And, yes, a well ported 2-valve big valve head is totally the way to go.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Oh, I think you misunderstood where I was going with the maximum boring options of the GY6-B cases. It's not that I need 232cc, but the fact that you can rebore as parts wear and need to be replaced. Or you can go up in size if you feel the need to later. The case is designed to have more material - i.e. much stronger - than the A case products.

The 61 mm kit may be just the way to go for what I want. At least initially. I am wondering if a 4V head would be a better performer than a 2V head though. Particularly if I decide to go - long term - with an EFI setup. I can set up an EFI setup with two maps. One for basic day to day (economy mode) riding and at the flip of a switch push it to performance mode. And not really have to worry about tuning based on jet/needle size.

I am still looking for a GY6-B short case though. So far all I see is Taida parts. If I can find an inexpensive - relatively - short case GY6-B that would work as a drop in replacement I'd prefer to go that route. I'm still searching on Google, but so far no real luck finding one.

On the other hand, I'd really like to strip down the stock engine and rebuild it myself. I like working on small engines and have done so in the past. larger ones that need equipment to hold/maneuver in place seems more like work than fun.
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote:I am wondering if a 4V head would be a better performer than a 2V head
Yes. It will. My current Buddy scooter is running a 4V head.
BUT this is also true...
lovemysan wrote: I wouldn't build a 4 valve, unported they suck. Its much easier to port the 2 valve heads.
If anything this is an understatement. The 4V heads require extensive work/tuning to get them to provide a real benefit.
Once you have them setup, though, the benefit is substantial.

On the other hand, on top of the work required to get the 4V heads properly ported and tuned, the 4V heads that are available for the GY6 (such as the Taida) do not fit in the Buddy engine compartment without modifying (cutting) the frame. They are taller than the 2V heads and will hit the frame.
BMW_Art wrote:The 61 mm kit may be just the way to go for what I want. At least initially.
I think you'll be entirely happy with this approach.

Well... I take that back. LOL

You'll probably want MORE power at some point and eventually end up putting in an even bigger displacement engine, but after having done so you'll discover that you were already just about up against the limits of the transmission and suspension and wish that you had just stuck with the 61 mm bore cylinder. ;)

Your bigger displacement scoot will have more power, which is useful and fun in many situations, but it will be less ridable overall, especially in day to day jaunt around town-like situations. In other words, your overall utility will probably be maxed out when you do the 61 mm cylinder/stroker crank/ported 2V head/exhaust/intake manifold/carb on the bike.

That's the real sweet spot.
BMW_Art wrote:I am still looking for a GY6-B short case though.
Yeah - Look for GY6-B case to bore out and throw in a monster cylinder.
I am very curious to see what you come up with - especially if you turn up for some of the LASG rides with the little beast. The BB Buddies are SO MUCH fun!

But keep the PGO cases... either stock, w/ 58.5 mm cylinder or bored w/no-more-than 61 mm cylinder, because you'll almost certainly find that you kind of like that combination best for overall use and utility. :)
BMW_Art wrote:Particularly if I decide to go - long term - with an EFI setup.


If you decide to do this, let me know! I have the Blur 220i EFI system ready to install on my BB Buddy Psycho, but I can't find anyone to do the installation. As it is the 30 mm carburetor works(!), but it would be nice to have maps for a touch more performance in some places and (mostly) for overall better fuel economy.

That's the other thing with an extreme BB Buddy scooter - your fuel economy takes a huge hit and with a 1.25 gal tank the range of the scooter is severely diminished.
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Maximum stock RPM

Post by BMW_Art »

Okay, so I was thinking that the there is basically only two ways to improve the top end speed on a stock Buddy 150 engine. Gearing or RPM. Changing the stock gears seems to not be an option as there are no PGO gears available to do the job. There may be variations available and slightly taller tires although the gain appears to be fairly minimal. So that leaves RPM.

If I recall correctly a square motor - piston diameter same size as stroke - is best for higher RPM. Where as a taller stroke is better at lowers RPM and improves tourque. So, it occurred to me that perhaps if I:

1. Get a 61 mm BBK.

2. Balance the stock crankshaft. Or buy a better aftermarket crankshaft and get it balanced.

3. Get a better head, clean up the ports, put titanium springs and retainers on it.

Then maybe I could bump up the maximum RPM without throwing a rod, melting the crankshaft, or throwing a valve. But while thinking this I thought, what is the stock maximum RPM anyway. Anyone know? A quick search did not find anything specific.
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Re: Maximum stock RPM

Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote: If I recall correctly a square motor - piston diameter same size as stroke - is best for higher RPM. Where as a taller stroke is better at lowers RPM and improves tourque.
True.
BMW_Art wrote:So, it occurred to me that perhaps if I:
1. Get a 61 mm BBK.
2. Balance [/] buy a better crankshaft.
3. Get a better head
The stock head is a quality head. It's just too small to get the most out of a big bore cylinder.

Overall I think this is an excellent way to achieve a high output high RPM motor, and in this case I would go for the 4V head! It does make a difference.
BUT it is a lot of work to get one properly tuned and ported. And yes, you will need high quality springs and retainers on it - mine has both as well as custom after-market valves - but you would end up with a high revving engine that could likely sustain the speeds that you're after.

I turn to lovemysan after that for his experience with crankshaft longevity.
BMW_Art wrote: What is the stock maximum RPM anyway.
There is no rev limiter on a stock Buddy, but most stock Buddies will never see the functional redline unless they are in special circumstances where RPM is not limited by power (e.g. long downhill high speed run).
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Post by Stitch »

I wonder if any of the Asian 250's would bolt up? The sym rv motor will happy run high 70's/low 80's all day long.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Interesting idea. A 250 motor. I did actually look at a few, but none that I found were even of the GY6 variety.

As for my better head comment, I was not disparaging the quality of the product, but more that I'd need a larger head with larger valves at a minim and possibly a 4V head.

In regard to that, I saw a 4V head on Scooter Dogs (half the price of the Taida head too) and the Taida 4V head. I plan to port and polish the head, or have it done professionally, but the question is what head to buy for the NCY 61mm Ceramic BBK. That is the only one I've found so far that did not require boring the case.

I've decided to not do anything irreversible to this engine as if it does not wind up suiting my needs I want to be able to restore it. Or reuse it on my wife's scooter. In either case, if it doesn't meet my needs I'm going to go the Taida short case route. I can install a BBK kit on it, get different gear sets, etc. so will be able to find a way to push the top end speed and might even be able to keep the low and mid-range with that method. Or shoot, I might even be able to find another scooter with a 150cc or larger - required for highway use and DMV/title to make it legal - in the 250 or less pound range for the same price as the Taida engine. :)

Anyway, I now need to buy the NCY BBK, find a good 4V head, make sure the timing chain works with the 4V head, buy the NCY front forks, and a NCY or YSS rear shock.

And that does not include tearing off all the plastic for a good cleaning and paint job. The scooters I bought are seriously faded. My wife's is first since I have to put on a new triple tree and fork set. She pranged it her first time out. The triple tree is bent, but the forks appear fine. But you have to buy a complete assembly for the triple tree so she gets a new set of forks too. Not NCY, but if she learns to ride it without beating it up I'll upgrade her suspension too.
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Post by Christophers »

Stitch wrote:I wonder if any of the Asian 250's would bolt up? The sym rv motor will happy run high 70's/low 80's all day long.
I think how fast one can run a Buddy scooter is largely a question of gearing. These little PGO GY6 engines can be modded to deliver more power than the rest of the platform can efficiently handle - in this case transmission and final drive ratios.
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote:...the question is what head to buy for the NCY 61mm Ceramic BBK. That is the only one I've found so far that did not require boring the case.
I had my 4V head professionally worked on, and it was an involved process. If you have funds to spare, you might consider having lovemysan port a 2V head for the NCY 61 mm ceramic BBK while whomever ends up working on the 4V head is busy with that project. In the meantime you'll have a nicely kitted and ported 2V scooter to ride!!

The Taida 4V head is a good head. My 4V head is actually a Ruima 4V head, but it is supposedly the exact same design as the Taida head.
(Apparently the same head is manufactured by multiple companies.)
BMW_Art wrote:...make sure the timing chain works with the 4V head
Yes. This is another issue with the Taida/Ruima style 4V head. The timing chain will have to be custom sized.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Crap, I just recalled Babblefish said a 4V head required cutting the frame. Did you have to do that too? Also seems the Rumia 4V head might be out of stock.

By the way did you have to get a 4V domed piston too?
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote:Crap, I just recalled Babblefish said a 4V head required cutting the frame. Did you have to do that too? Also seems the Rumia 4V head might be out of stock.

By the way did you have to get a 4V domed piston too?
• I had to cut the frame to fit the 4V head.
• The Ruima head is/was out of stock - hence the discussion of the Taida version.
• I did not have to get a special piston. Modified the piston for the 2V head.

The 4V head is a lot of work...

If you can get a big valve 2V head ported and running in the meantime that might be the way to go. On the other hand, I had forgotten about the piston mods and the timing chain and all of that. Maybe running the engine with a 61 mm cylinder with a ported 2V head setup while waiting to finish up the work on the 4V head isn't all that feasible after all???

In comparison the 2V head is virtually bolt on.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Yeah, I think I'll keep it simple for now. So NCY cylinder and a performance head with larger valves is the current ticket.

I've already discussed this with the wife and when I mentioned if it didn't work out for me I could put the engine on her scooter she gave me a big smile. I think that means she hopes it doesn't work out for me. :)

I didn't tell her I could always upgrade her's too.

I really wish I could find a short case GY6-B complete for under a $1000 as I'd jump on that in a heartbeat. So many more options.
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Post by babblefish »

Actually, it was Christophers who mentioned the need to modify the frame of a Buddy to fit a 4V head...

Anywhos, not all 4V heads are the same. If you research carefully, you'll find that the cheaper 4V heads have smaller valves than the Taida. Hoca (Taiwan) is one of those heads, though they are about $160 cheaper for the kit. Also, when you go to a 4V head, it is best to use a piston with four valve pockets machined into the dome rather than the normal two, otherwise you risk the valves contacting the top of the piston.

Some of the 4V head kits that I've seen include longer studs and a timing chain (Hoca).

Be careful of which 4V head you buy because they are available for both the
"A" cases (54mm stud spacing) and the "B" cases (57mm stud spacing).

Even if you bored your crankcase for a 61mm or bigger bore, the stock cylinder can still be used later on because it is the four studs that holds everything together. The oil port on the cylinder will still line-up with the one in the case.

I suggest using a high-flow oil pump if you're going to modify the engine for more power.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KOSO-GY6-SUPER- ... 2764372039

If you're going to use a 161 BBK, then the stock 24mm carb will be more than adequate, just rejet it.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Oops, my bad. :)

I have been looking at several sets of 2 and 4 valve heads and have noticed the discrepancies. I was aware too that the 4V reliefs are better for a 4V head, but also noticed some threads where the stock NCY head was used with a 4V head so was curious about it.

I also found that Taida also has 2 different no bore 61 mm kits. And to be honest I like their kit better as it has a thicker skirt than the NCY kit. And I like their performance 2V head too. But I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find all the parts.

And when I look at parts, I was planning to buy new parts and not reuse the stock parts (i.e. cam, cam holder, cam cover, etc.) so it seems I'll need to buy them as they don't come with the BBK. When I get a total, I'll have to compare it to the Taida rebuild kit as I can get one of those for less than $800. It includes all those parts plus the new GY6B case.

A rebuild kit does not include a new crankshaft, transmission, or final drive gear sets though.

I'm going to put my plans on hold though until this weekend when I can strip off the plastic and actually measure the case that is installed. I need to know how wide it is. How tall. Distance between various endpoints so I can do some comparisons with the Taida GY6B case, a standard long case, and various head options. Otherwise I'm liable to buy an engine or parts that just will not fit.

I'm honestly surprised by how many different options there are and at the same time happy to see so many videos about the options too. It's just so time consuming digging out all the details.
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote: the stock NCY head was used with a 4V head so was curious about it.
The NCY piston can be used with a 4V head. One does machine valve pockets into the head to conform with the 4V valve pattern.
babblefish wrote:the cheaper 4V heads have smaller valves than the Taida.
I was not aware of the smaller format 4V heads. Good information.
Still, my intuition is that going with a smaller valve 4V head is a severe case of diminishing returns. The 4V heads are already enough work to setup and port correctly that it makes sense to me to invest that effort in a larger valve head. As it is, my Ruima 4V head has enlarged exhaust ports/valves.
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Post by babblefish »

Christophers wrote:
BMW_Art wrote: the stock NCY head was used with a 4V head so was curious about it.
The NCY head can be used with a 4V head. One does machine valve pockets into the head to conform with the 4V valve pattern.
babblefish wrote:the cheaper 4V heads have smaller valves than the Taida.
I was not aware of the smaller format 4V heads. Good information.
Still, my intuition is that going with a smaller valve 4V head is a severe case of diminishing returns. The 4V heads are already enough work to setup and port correctly that it makes sense to me to invest that effort in a larger valve head. As it is, my Ruima 4V head has enlarged exhaust ports/valves.
Ruima is suppose to be pretty good. Just out of curiosity, what are the sizes of your intake and exhaust valves?

"The NCY head can be used with a 4V head." - why does this not make any sense to me?
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Post by Christophers »

babblefish wrote: "The NCY head can be used with a 4V head." - why does this not make any sense to me?
Fixed! (Thx)
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Post by Christophers »

babblefish wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are the sizes of your intake and exhaust valves?
I tried to find that in my notes, but I can't put hands on the numbers.
How badly do you want to know?? :P
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Post by babblefish »

Christophers wrote:
babblefish wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are the sizes of your intake and exhaust valves?
I tried to find that in my notes, but I can't put hands on the numbers.
How badly do you want to know?? :P
Can you take your engine apart and let me know in about ten minutes?
Just kidding, I don't really need to know. Just being nosy.
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Post by BMW_Art »

Rumia Head:

Technical Details
Inlet Port: 25.8mm
Exhaust Port: 25.2mm
Combustion Chamber: 55mm
In Valve 21.5mm x 2
Ex Valve 19mm x 2

Taida Head:

I found a 22/21 and a 23/22
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Bought a used engine

Post by BMW_Art »

Change in plans. I just bought a used Taida GY6-B engine on eBay. The same one Dan Martin used in his videos. Should be here by Friday.
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Re: Bought a used engine

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BMW_Art wrote:Change in plans. I just bought a used Taida GY6-B engine on eBay. The same one Dan Martin used in his videos. Should be here by Friday.
Excellent! Please post some pictures when you get it. And do let us know how the install goes. How many CC's is it? Does it have the oil cooler hose connections on the front?
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Post by BMW_Art »

I do plan to start a new thread with before and after pictures. Plus a performance report. It is a 190cc. Has a 63mm piston with a 3+ stroker crankshaft. FWIW all Taida GY6-B engines require an oil cooler. That is included in the purchase.

Here's a thread with all the videos documenting the basic build.

Getting it used - finding it - was awesome as it will save me a lot of $$$ over buying one new. Only downside is I don't get to build it from scratch. :( But as I mentioned, I'd keep looking for a used one and this one was available. One of the main reasons I bought it is because at 190cc it hasn't been bored out so longevity should not be an issue.

It also already has a lower gear ratio to use the power it makes. I'm still not sure of the drive shaft yet. I'll have to back over the video and threads. If I recall it was set for a 10" wheel. If I'm lucky it will fit the Buddy rear wheel. If not it's either a new tire or drive shaft. Speaking of that anyone know how long the stock shaft is and how many splines?
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Post by Christophers »

Put that engine in a bike and let's go riding!!!
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Post by sc00ter »

This will be interesting! I no longer even own a Buddy but stop by just to see whats going on. The Buddy rims are 2 piece so if needed you can just swap out the hub, so dont let that be a concern.
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Post by Christophers »

Hey Art - Any updates???

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Post by BMW_Art »

I have the engine and quite a few additional parts for it, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it yet as I am painting my wife's scooter. I had to take it apart to repair the damage after she ran it into a pole, so figured I might as well go the whole way.

I haven't touched the body panels for a few weeks due to the excessive heat. It's been over 115 outside and about 125+ in the garage. This weekend should be below 100 so I suspect I'll be back prepping body panels. After I get her scooter done it is my turn and I'll look at swapping the engines then.
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Post by Christophers »

BMW_Art wrote:I have the engine and quite a few additional parts for it, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it yet as I am painting my wife's scooter. ... After I get her scooter done it is my turn and I'll look at swapping the engines then.
Any chance you got your engine installed and running?? :)

I just did a quick ride from La Cañada to Wrightwood on ACH this afternoon and the weather and road were perfect! I’m up for going again tomorrow (Sunday /Oct 22nd) if you have your little beast up and running and want to join.
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