Jetting and tuning an 08 Rattler 110

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RiderK
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Jetting and tuning an 08 Rattler 110

Post by RiderK »

So I'm tinkering with the Rattler. Put the Dr. Pulley clutch in, Malossi 2000 variator, and put a new Prima pipe on. I started with the larger '95' main jet to start the tuning process. Went down the street and back and noticed that the head pipe was already dark purple. Did a plug chop and it was bright white. Ordered new jets and swapped out the main. Put a 102 in and new plug. Came out white but not as bright as last time. Still way too lean. I'll try the 105 I have and see what happens there. For a stock carb these jet sizes seem awfully big compared to others builds of Rattlers. No air leaks, no bad gaskets or seals, carb spacer correct, intake tight, no vacuum leaks. The plug doesn't lie though. Just amazed that the pipe change needed that much over jetting. Stock was 85 main and plug looked perfect with stock pipe. So I'll try the 105 and see what it does either tonight or tomorrow evening (roofing kicked my butt today). I've jetted quite a few of my dirt bikes and street bikes and don't recall ever having to step up that much for just a pipe change. Were the stock Rattler exhausts really that restrictive? I guess they must have been. I've heard some say that it's the same pipe as for the roughhouse but it's not (maybe it used to be, I don't know). I have a Prima here for the roughhouse and it's not as long. The rattler head pipe has a good 8" or so on the roughhouse one.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

Are you running an unmodified OEM airbox & filter, with the pre-filter?
RiderK
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Post by RiderK »

B02S4 wrote:Are you running an unmodified OEM airbox & filter, with the pre-filter?
Yes sir I am. No modifications to the airbox. Stock filter (clean) with stock pre filter. I've looked it over a few times for any possible air leaks. It's not a big deal really because I can up-jet and get it tuned in. Just surprised at how big of a jet it seems I need. I'll try the 105 tomorrow for a WOT run and do a plug chop. But I sure don't like coming back from a WOT run and seeing a lean plug. Done that twice already. But that's the protocol, to get the main dialed in before the rest. It's got 3500 miles so if I hurt it then it'll give me a reason to do a fresh top end. It seems to be fine though now. Still starts and runs as before, just still lean.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

The factory jet is really lean, and the stock airbox is very restrictive.

IIRC mine is currently running a 115 main jet in the OEM Keihin PB carb, .5mm needle shim, with a modified OEM airbox and custom Uni panel filter & stock exhaust. FWIW my airbox flows the same as an Arreche "Racing Air Box" (which is basically a foam pod filter) or a Uni pod. And it gets 75+ MPG.

I have run up to a 120 or 125 main with the PB carb and an RRGS exhaust, so don't be concerned about going large. If you are an experienced 2T tuner, you'll know when it is too big.
RiderK
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Location: Indianapolis

Post by RiderK »

B02S4 wrote:The factory jet is really lean, and the stock airbox is very restrictive.

IIRC mine is currently running a 115 main jet in the OEM Keihin PB carb, .5mm needle shim, with a modified OEM airbox and custom Uni panel filter & stock exhaust. FWIW my airbox flows the same as an Arreche "Racing Air Box" (which is basically a foam pod filter) or a Uni pod. And it gets 75+ MPG.

I have run up to a 120 or 125 main with the PB carb and an RRGS exhaust, so don't be concerned about going large. If you are an experienced 2T tuner, you'll know when it is too big.
I won't claim to be any expert, but I have some experience with jetting and piping my 2T dirt bikes. It just seemed abnormal to have to up-jet so much for just a pipe change. I was just curious about others opinions or experiences with a Rattler, or extensive tuning experience. I appreciate the help and comforting. I'll have another go at it and see what happens. A scooter mechanic I spoke with earlier told me to put the stock exhaust and jet back on, plug chop it, and make sure there isn't an air leak I missed. He said possibly a base gasket, or just needing more jet. But if you're running properly with a modded air box and stock pipe then hopefully I just need to up-jet. We'll see what happens. I've always tuned my own carbs and had good luck. But I'm definitely not above asking for advice from others that know more or have more experience. Thanks again everyone, much appreciated. To be continued.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
johnyrrr
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Post by johnyrrr »

BOs24 where does one find a RRGS pipe for the rattler 110? Ive read the Prima isnt really worth changing to for the 110, how did you like the RRGS on the 110?
I have a uni pod coming and a 108 and 118 jets (thats all they had) for my 110 Rattler to hopefully change out soon.

RiderK wrote:
B02S4 wrote:The factory jet is really lean, and the stock airbox is very restrictive.

IIRC mine is currently running a 115 main jet in the OEM Keihin PB carb, .5mm needle shim, with a modified OEM airbox and custom Uni panel filter & stock exhaust. FWIW my airbox flows the same as an Arreche "Racing Air Box" (which is basically a foam pod filter) or a Uni pod. And it gets 75+ MPG.

I have run up to a 120 or 125 main with the PB carb and an RRGS exhaust, so don't be concerned about going large. If you are an experienced 2T tuner, you'll know when it is too big.
I won't claim to be any expert, but I have some experience with jetting and piping my 2T dirt bikes. It just seemed abnormal to have to up-jet so much for just a pipe change. I was just curious about others opinions or experiences with a Rattler, or extensive tuning experience. I appreciate the help and comforting. I'll have another go at it and see what happens. A scooter mechanic I spoke with earlier told me to put the stock exhaust and jet back on, plug chop it, and make sure there isn't an air leak I missed. He said possibly a base gasket, or just needing more jet. But if you're running properly with a modded air box and stock pipe then hopefully I just need to up-jet. We'll see what happens. I've always tuned my own carbs and had good luck. But I'm definitely not above asking for advice from others that know more or have more experience. Thanks again everyone, much appreciated. To be continued.
RiderK
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:15 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Post by RiderK »

Well I had some personal issues in life to deal with for the past three weeks but I did end up getting it jetted correctly. My base gasket was leaking slightly. I cleaned it up, resealed, and torqued down. After that fact I ended up using the 95 main jet. I haven't made any adjustments to the needle or the mixture screw yet but will be soon. I seem to have lost about 8 MPH on top speed. I've tried different variator weights, different variators, a new stock torque spring, a yellow Malossi spring, and a red NCY spring. No noticable difference in acceleration on all three springs. But the red NCY spring is extremely stiff and wouldn't let me go any faster then 40 MPH. The other two springs left me topped out about 50. I've tried 8-12 gram weights with zero difference in top speed. So either this Prima pipe killed my top end or I need some more fine tuning on the carb, or both. I'll try to get back to tuning this week and see what I get. As for the RRGS pipe, I'd like to find one as well.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

RiderK wrote:... So either this Prima pipe killed my top end or I need some more fine tuning on the carb, or both...
From a performance perspective Prima pipes for the Rat 110 are a joke, really.
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

johnyrrr wrote:BOs24 where does one find a RRGS pipe for the rattler 110?...
First, a little PGO PMX performance history...one upon a time in Taiwan there was an expat Brit with the initials DK, also known as "SBL" (those from "back in the day" already know who that is), who took these bikes about as far as they could go performance-wise. DK sold performance parts for the PGO-PMX, & knew these bikes as well as anyone on the planet.

When Genuine decided to import what was essentially a rebaged PGO PMX (with a few minor changes) as the "Rattler 110", I understand that DK approached Genuine leadership about that, & it apparently didn't go well.

Shortly thereafter, DK left Taiwan (I have theories as to why), left PGO performance tuning behind, (instead focused his tuning efforts on the Zuma - smart move, given the sales disparity), and sold his remaining PGO performance parts inventory to a shop in Guam. I bought the pipe directly from the shop in Guam.

The "RRGS" pipe that I have is basically a knock-off of the "V8" style cannister performance pipe built to DK's spec, intended for use with a 123cc BBK (which DK also used to sell)...it looks similar to the OEM pipe (uses same mounts, however it does not have a heat shield, & uses a different gasket)...to the untrained eye it would visually pass as stock. It is much louder than stock, however, and definitely makes more power at high RPMS....the header pipe has a larger diameter, & the stinger has a larger diameter. DK told me that it was designed as a bonafide expansion chamber, although I have not directly confirmed how it is baffled inside.

To get the most out of my "RRGS" pipe, the Rat 110 motor also needs a larger carb, like the Arreche 821/3 (which is the only carb that I know of that actually fits the OEM Rat 110 intake manifold).

I have run the RRGS pipe with both the OEM Keihin PB carb and the Arreche 821/3 carb, & it definitely makes more power on high with either as compared to the stock pipe, however with the Arreche 821/3 carb & "RRGS" pipe the motor obviously does better than the OEM PB.

I am thinking about selling my Rat 110 in the spring to make room for another purchase, so I currently have the OEM PB carb & exhaust back on the bike. I will probably offer the "RRGS" pipe, the Arreche 821/3 carb, and a macthing Arreche Racing Air Box (RAB) for sale at some point. If you want top end & don't mind a louder pipe, that's a great combo. I also have the baseline tuning combos worked out depeding upon how the bike is configured.

The "RRGS" pipe is a "sleeper" pipe visually, however there is no mistaking it for stock with the motor running.

FWIW, I also had the chance to buy the remaining "DK" PGO PMX BBK kits from the Guam shop back in the day, however I never got around to it, and I understand the few remaining kits were all subsequently sold, & due to new regs in Taiwan, are no longer produced.

Thus endeth the lesson :D
RiderK
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Post by RiderK »

B02S4 wrote:
RiderK wrote:... So either this Prima pipe killed my top end or I need some more fine tuning on the carb, or both...
From a performance perspective Prima pipes for the Rat 110 are a joke, really.
I believe you're right. I've heard the negative stories on the Prima 110 pipes, and I've also seem some pretty extensive positive claims from a few people about them. My low end and mid range seem to have a little more punch but the top end is definitely down a bit. My stock exhaust is badly rusted out on the head pipe (to the point of being awfully thin). So I went for the Prima because it was cheaper then the stocker. And I hoped for some gains. We'll see how some more tuning affects it. Maybe next season I'll order a BWS100 pipe and have the flange shifted, because every other expantion chamber I've ever put on something always made a good difference in power.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

RiderK wrote:...My stock exhaust is badly rusted out on the head pipe...
Just throwing this out there, I have a spare OEM exhaust in great shape with a partial header wrap, with a 10 or 11mm hole drilled the end baffle as an experiment...I'll let it go cheap just to make room in my garage. It fit perfectly on my Rat.
RiderK
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Post by RiderK »

B02S4 wrote:
johnyrrr wrote:BOs24 where does one find a RRGS pipe for the rattler 110?...
First, a little PGO PMX performance history...one upon a time in Taiwan there was an expat Brit with the initials DK, also known as "SBL" (those from "back in the day" already know who that is), who took these bikes about as far as they could go performance-wise. DK sold performance parts for the PGO-PMX, & knew these bikes as well as anyone on the planet.

When Genuine decided to import what was essentially a rebaged PGO PMX (with a few minor changes) as the "Rattler 110", I understand that DK approached Genuine leadership about that, & it apparently didn't go well.

Shortly thereafter, DK left Taiwan (I have theories as to why), left PGO performance tuning behind, (instead focused his tuning efforts on the Zuma - smart move, given the sales disparity), and sold his remaining PGO performance parts inventory to a shop in Guam. I bought the pipe directly from the shop in Guam.

The "RRGS" pipe that I have is basically a knock-off of the "V8" style cannister performance pipe built to DK's spec, intended for use with a 123cc BBK (which DK also used to sell)...it looks similar to the OEM pipe (uses same mounts, however it does not have a heat shield, & uses a different gasket)...to the untrained eye it would visually pass as stock. It is much louder than stock, however, and definitely makes more power at high RPMS....the header pipe has a larger diameter, & the stinger has a larger diameter. DK told me that it was designed as a bonafide expansion chamber, although I have not directly confirmed how it is baffled inside.

To get the most out of my "RRGS" pipe, the Rat 110 motor also needs a larger carb, like the Arreche 821/3 (which is the only carb that I know of that actually fits the OEM Rat 110 intake manifold).

I have run the RRGS pipe with both the OEM Keihin PB carb and the Arreche 821/3 carb, & it definitely makes more power on high with either as compared to the stock pipe, however with the Arreche 821/3 carb & "RRGS" pipe the motor obviously does better than the OEM PB.

I am thinking about selling my Rat 110 in the spring to make room for another purchase, so I currently have the OEM PB carb & exhaust back on the bike. I will probably offer the "RRGS" pipe, the Arreche 821/3 carb, and a macthing Arreche Racing Air Box (RAB) for sale at some point. If you want top end & don't mind a louder pipe, that's a great combo. I also have the baseline tuning combos worked out depeding upon how the bike is configured.

The "RRGS" pipe is a "sleeper" pipe visually, however there is no mistaking it for stock with the motor running.

FWIW, I also had the chance to buy the remaining "DK" PGO PMX BBK kits from the Guam shop back in the day, however I never got around to it, and I understand the few remaining kits were all subsequently sold, & due to new regs in Taiwan, are no longer produced.

Thus endeth the lesson :D
I thank you sir for the history lesson. I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. I've seen his posts on this forum and others as well. If you so happen to desire to get rid of your extra parts then I would be very happy to buy them from you. This bike is still new to me and is my project bike at the moment. I appreciate all of your help and knowledge. Just let me know when those parts are in your way ;-). Thanks man
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
RiderK
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Post by RiderK »

B02S4 wrote:
RiderK wrote:...My stock exhaust is badly rusted out on the head pipe...
Just throwing this out there, I have a spare OEM exhaust in great shape with a partial header wrap, with a 10 or 11mm hole drilled the end baffle as an experiment...I'll let it go cheap just to make room in my garage. It fit perfectly on my Rat.
I appreciate the offer man. But as of right now I'm more leaning to the Rattler being a modest modding project. If I can't find a pipe to make the gains I'd normally see with a stock swap then yes I would be interested. I'll need to mess with this for now though. Thank you though.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
johnyrrr
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Post by johnyrrr »

I wonder if the V8 pipes being sold for the BWS 100 on Fleabay would work out with a little tweaking? I want to make a little more power so I can put in some heavyer rollers and be able to comfortably sqeeze 60 mph out of it hopefully.
Funny history lesson, I had a Zuma 125 that I ordered a BBK and a bunch of goodies for it back in the day and almost didnt get my parts after I paid for them. I had heard Danny boy got deported, /started some shrimp fishing buisness but who knows, its all just internet rumors. I did appreciate all his incite into how far one could take the original Zuma 125 motor, he was a great marketer in a niche crowd begging for unobtainable parts for the average consumer.
How much you want for the 21mm carb?
RiderK
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Post by RiderK »

johnyrrr wrote:I wonder if the V8 pipes being sold for the BWS 100 on Fleabay would work out with a little tweaking? I want to make a little more power so I can put in some heavyer rollers and be able to comfortably sqeeze 60 mph out of it hopefully.
Funny history lesson, I had a Zuma 125 that I ordered a BBK and a bunch of goodies for it back in the day and almost didnt get my parts after I paid for them. I had heard Danny boy got deported, /started some shrimp fishing buisness but who knows, its all just internet rumors. I did appreciate all his incite into how far one could take the original Zuma 125 motor, he was a great marketer in a niche crowd begging for unobtainable parts for the average consumer.
How much you want for the 21mm carb?
Don't quote me on this but many people say that the BWS 100 pipes will work if the exhaust flange that bolts to the cylinder is rotated 180 degrees. Or they say you can use a BWS 100 cylinder so the flange matches up correctly. I'm not sure what anyone says about the mounting bracket in the center of the pipe. I've never attempted to use one of the pipes before so I can't really say if they'll work. I've seen many claims that they will work with a small amount of tweaking. If I can't find anything else I may just give it a shot.
2014 Roughhouse, S6 Sp Pro Mk2, C16 city, Athena full circle, 19 PHBG, Voca cf reeds, S6 TC clutch red spr, Polini vario, NCY tq drvr, premix, Polini tach temp voltage gauge, LEDs all around
Stinkdyr
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Post by Stinkdyr »

My bike: 2009 RH50, so this might not hold true for the Rattler.
But my experience trying to richen the air-fuel mix via throttle needle adjustment where it attaches to the slide was fruitless.

This RH50 carb main jet throttle needle and slide can be accessed from top of carb. There is a finger tight screw cap that holds the throttle cable and spring in place. Don’t bother trying to adjust the needle to lean or richen your fuel mix, like you can do on some carbs. This carb was not designed to be able to adjust the needle with washers etc. It is designed NOT to allow you to do that, since the white plastic triangular shaped needle retainer piece cannot be easily removed without breaking it. So, in reality your only two choices to adjust the air-fuel mixture are: the gold screw beside the idle adjuster knob, or to rejet the carb.

My $.02
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

Stinkdyr wrote:My bike: 2009 RH50, so this might not hold true for the Rattler...
It doesn't.

The OEM PB carb can be shimmed up to .6mm, at least. I have done it. Mine is shimmed to .6mm now. There isn't enough clearance between the slide & retainer do do .9mm, however. Not sure what the outer limit is above .6mm.
vmaxrattler110
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Post by vmaxrattler110 »

B02S4 wrote:The factory jet is really lean, and the stock airbox is very restrictive.

IIRC mine is currently running a 115 main jet in the OEM Keihin PB carb, .5mm needle shim, with a modified OEM airbox and custom Uni panel filter & stock exhaust. FWIW my airbox flows the same as an Arreche "Racing Air Box" (which is basically a foam pod filter) or a Uni pod. And it gets 75+ MPG.

I have run up to a 120 or 125 main with the PB carb and an RRGS exhaust, so don't be concerned about going large. If you are an experienced 2T tuner, you'll know when it is too big.

How did you get the white plastic needle retainer clip out to adjust the needle position? I had my carb slide out to adjust it the other day and ran into it the problem of what to do with that plastic piece. I don't know how to remove it without damaging it.
B02S4
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Post by B02S4 »

vmaxrattler110 wrote:...How did you get the white plastic needle retainer clip out to adjust the needle position? I had my carb slide out to adjust it the other day and ran into it the problem of what to do with that plastic piece. I don't know how to remove it without damaging it.
A set of small needle nose plyers...the white plastic piece is just a retainer that will twist out counter-clockwise...it does not take much force or movement to remove it. There is also small spring under the retainer to keep the needle under pressure.
vmaxrattler110
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Post by vmaxrattler110 »

RiderK wrote:Well I had some personal issues in life to deal with for the past three weeks but I did end up getting it jetted correctly. My base gasket was leaking slightly. I cleaned it up, resealed, and torqued down. After that fact I ended up using the 95 main jet. I haven't made any adjustments to the needle or the mixture screw yet but will be soon. I seem to have lost about 8 MPH on top speed. I've tried different variator weights, different variators, a new stock torque spring, a yellow Malossi spring, and a red NCY spring. No noticable difference in acceleration on all three springs. But the red NCY spring is extremely stiff and wouldn't let me go any faster then 40 MPH. The other two springs left me topped out about 50. I've tried 8-12 gram weights with zero difference in top speed. So either this Prima pipe killed my top end or I need some more fine tuning on the carb, or both. I'll try to get back to tuning this week and see what I get. As for the RRGS pipe, I'd like to find one as well.
How did you end up telling that the gasket was leaking? Was their oil all around it?
vmaxrattler110
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Post by vmaxrattler110 »

A set of small needle nose plyers...the white plastic piece is just a retainer that will twist out counter-clockwise...it does not take much force or movement to remove it. There is also small spring under the retainer to keep the needle under pressure.[/quote]

Thank you!
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