Forums
 FAQHelp  LinksLinks    SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tons of smoke after WOT - adjust oil injector?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forums » General Discussion Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Tons of smoke after WOT - adjust oil injector? Reply with quote

So I have my Buddy all dialed in air/fuel wise, but I still get tons of blueish white smoke. It isn't there when I just start the buddy and let it idle, but when I go WOT it gushes out like a fog machine, and then continues to smoke more than it should once it comes back down to idle.

I'm pretty sure it's oil for two reasons:
1) adjusting the air fuel screw in either direction causes the scooter to cut out or bog down - so I think the air/fuel mix is fine and its not just running rich
2) The smoke has a bluish color to it and stays level with the ground or sinks down, so it's probably not water.

I suspect what's happening is that I twist the throttle and that pulls the oil injector pump wide open, which then over-oils the engine. I want to adjust the oil injector pump to do less.

Problem is, I have no idea where the pump is, how to access it, or how to adjust it once I have access. Can anyone help me out here?

Update: I've located the oil injector pump, but there is seemingly no adjustment, at least not on the buddy 50. The pump appears to be the stock pump, and matches the parts manual, so I think these injectors just weren't meant to be adjusted. Is that possible? Seems a bad idea. Regardless, does anyone know any work arounds for adjusting it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
skipper20
Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2012
Posts: 819
Location: Des Moines, WA
170i

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Tons of smoke after WOT - adjust oil injector? Reply with quote

buddys_n_blasters wrote:
So I have my Buddy all dialed in air/fuel wise, but I still get tons of blueish white smoke. It isn't there when I just start the buddy and let it idle, but when I go WOT it gushes out like a fog machine, and then continues to smoke more than it should once it comes back down to idle.

I'm pretty sure it's oil for two reasons:
1) adjusting the air fuel screw in either direction causes the scooter to cut out or bog down - so I think the air/fuel mix is fine and its not just running rich
2) The smoke has a bluish color to it and stays level with the ground or sinks down, so it's probably not water.

I suspect what's happening is that I twist the throttle and that pulls the oil injector pump wide open, which then over-oils the engine. I want to adjust the oil injector pump to do less.

Problem is, I have no idea where the pump is, how to access it, or how to adjust it once I have access. Can anyone help me out here?

Update: I've located the oil injector pump, but there is seemingly no adjustment, at least not on the buddy 50. The pump appears to be the stock pump, and matches the parts manual, so I think these injectors just weren't meant to be adjusted. Is that possible? Seems a bad idea. Regardless, does anyone know any work arounds for adjusting it?


What type oil are you using? Total mileage on scooter? Pre-owned?

Bill in Seattle
Member Emeritus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently using Castrol 927 High Performance 2-Cycle Oil Pro Series Racing Formula Premix Only. It's what the previous owner had in there and I didn't change it.

Scooter is pre-owned, has 1300 miles on it.

I called Genuine today and they told me to get an oil that said "JD FASO" on it. He said my oil (the Castrol) was likely the culprit.

I've never heard of JD FASO oil, and can't seem to find anything on google, either. If I can't find that, what do you recommend?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
sc00ter
Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 813
Location: Norfolk VA
19 Piaggio Liberty S, 98 Zuma

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use YamaLube 2 stroke oil. The front of the bottle has 4 little pictures on it, and one is a Zuma. Can get it from any motorcycle shop that sells Yamaha or any boating supplies store. Unless your Buddy 50 is on pre-mix for some weird reason, using a pre-mix only oil is not a great idea on a auto-injector system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Stanza
Member


Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 362
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi, Honda C70

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JASO FD, not JD FASO.

Lots of brands have it, but Motul 710 is my favorite. Your pipe is getting saturated with that castrol, which isn't burning off cleanly in the catalytic converter. Switch over to FD rated oil, and you should see it clear up as it works through the old stuff.

Also, the injector pump on your buddy isn't cable actuated, it's a fixed rate pump that works off a gear drive from the crank. Faster the engine spins, the faster the pump delivers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone, that should clear things up (literally). HA!

Stanza wrote:
JASO FD, not JD FASO.

Lots of brands have it, but Motul 710 is my favorite. Your pipe is getting saturated with that castrol, which isn't burning off cleanly in the catalytic converter. Switch over to FD rated oil, and you should see it clear up as it works through the old stuff.

Also, the injector pump on your buddy isn't cable actuated, it's a fixed rate pump that works off a gear drive from the crank. Faster the engine spins, the faster the pump delivers.


Should I be worried about the CC? Or anything else for that matter? I've only run it like this for maybe a mile or two.

And yeah I realized it wasn't cable actuated once I found it, but it still seems strange to me that there's no adjustment for it at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
Stanza
Member


Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 362
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi, Honda C70

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the previous owner used that stuff exclusively, it's anyone's guess. Maybe the cat is halfway to plugged, and you won't find out about it till later. If your performance has been pretty good, you're probably fine. When the cat plugs, your bike will really struggle to get out of its own way. When/if that happens, you can always switch over to the sport pipe, which is essentially the same pipe, but no cat, and flows a little better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just drained the existing oil as best I could (any tips on this? it seems to not drain fully or quickly).

Oddly enough the oil in there was blue, which doesn't match the Castrol 927 that was supposedly being used. Any thoughts on what this could be?

I left the oil line disconnected after draining the oil and ran it for a while, still a ton of smoke. I'm hoping it was just burning off whatever was left in the muffler, but at this point I'm at a loss.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
youkiddin
Member


Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 61
Location: michigan
09 stella

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do not run it with the oil line disconnected . the smoke you are seeing is the oil in the pipe burning off. you will destroy the engine with no oil being injected.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork


Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 3876
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
2 - many

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please do some homework before you start messing with your carb and injector.

You said you are "Currently using Castrol 927 High Performance 2-Cycle Oil Pro Series Racing Formula Premix Only". That is for premix...not an injector.

Please read up on how a two stroke motor works. First a Buddy 50 is air cooled so no water to create vapor. Second it's a 2T, it burns the injected oil, oil burns blue.

If you start making adjustments and disconnecting critical things...like the entire lubrication system...because it just doesn't seem right that motor will not last long.

_________________
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   Visit poster's website
tenders
Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 87

Buddy International 50 Italia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuddyRaton wrote:
Please read up on how a two stroke motor works. First a Buddy 50 is air cooled so no water to create vapor. Second it's a 2T, it burns the injected oil, oil burns blue.

If you start making adjustments and disconnecting critical things...like the entire lubrication system...because it just doesn't seem right that motor will not last long.


Agreed that "Premix" and "Having an oil injector" are mutually exclusive. And don't disconnect the oil injector! Oil is even more important than gasoline.

However, the engine absolutely does create water vapor during combustion. I saw no indication that the OP thought this was a liquid-cooled engine. And liquid-cooled engines use antifreeze, not water, which has a distinct smell.

I don't know how much oil remains in the system between the tank and the carburetor, but it isn't zero. I would get as much of the old oil out of that tank as possible, add a few ounces the correct type of injector oil (definitely not a fill at this point), and drive a gallon or two's worth of fuel to see what happens smokewise. I would burn as much of the old oil out with small additions of the newer oil over time rather than fill the tank with new oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I only ran it for two minutes without the injector, just long enough to see if it was the oil and to verify that my oil pump works (it does). Still a smoke machine.

I've since replaced the oil with Motul 710, and filled it with a fresh tank of premium gas. Smoking got slightly better, but not by much at all.

The exhaust has a different smell to it now, too, I'm not sure how to describe it. Harsher, I guess I'd say? Probably just the smell of the oil burning.

Still have no idea why it's so smoky. Particularly when the main jet is doing the work. Could that be relevant?

Last thing: could the catalytic converter have been taken out? Where is that on the buddy 50?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
350kmi
Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Madison, WI
'12 Buddy 170, '07 Buddy 125, , '87 Elite 80, '01 Elite 50, '10 Elite 110, '83 Aero 80, '15 Smax

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have bought a couple 2 stroke scooter where the previous owner had been running the wrong oil. It took a surprisingly long time for all the old oil to burn out of the exhaust and the smoke to stop. If seems to take a lot of heat and exhaust movement to burn/blow old oil out. What I found to work best if to get fresh gas and oil in the bike and take it out for at least a half hour ride with as much WOT riding as possible. Riding around my neighborhood or idling the bike didn't do much to clear the smoke.

I when was burning off the old oil of my '03 Vino last fall I too noticed the smell change once it got nice and hot when stopping at lights. Also, since I was riding after dark, after about 8 minutes of WOT I was actually able to see small glowing embers coming out the exhaust in the rear view mirror. This lasted for about 15 minutes.

I believe the catalytic converter is sealed inside the muffler and not removable. Your cat might be covered in oil but hopefully a good fast ride would clean it out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
cummingsjc
Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2015
Posts: 340
Location: College Station, TX
Genuine Buddy 50cc, Genuine Mean Cat, Piaggio MP3-500 (Desert Camo), MP3-400 (Pinky)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the scoot sit idle for a long period of time before you bought it? My experience is that if the bike isn't ridden for a longish period of time that they have a tendency to create the billowing clouds of smoke that the OP describes until all the old oil burns off. I would agree that you need to ride the bike for a couple of long rides with the new oil and all the built-up "gunk" will burn off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
tenders
Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 87

Buddy International 50 Italia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting. I owned a 1986 2-stroke Honda Spree in the ‘80s that had oil injection and I can’t recall such a thing as “premix” oil or “injector” oil - it was all just 2-stroke oil. However, that engine required a muffler decarbonization every 2000 miles or so and the effect on performance as the carbon built up over time was very noticeable.

As far as I can tell that carbonization process doesn’t happen any more with modern 2-strokes and this fancy injection-only oil. Perhaps the smoke is being caused by “old school” oil that in an “old school” scooter would have been turned into carbon?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
buddys_n_blasters
Member


Joined: 23 Jan 2019
Posts: 32

Buddy 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's funny, my other project right now is an '86 Spree. I took the muffler off yesterday and repainted before I considered decarbonizing. By the looks of the exhaust port I probably should have but I didn't want to mess with the paint job :/

Anyways, it sounds like I just have to wait this one out with plenty of WOT riding Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork


Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 3876
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
2 - many

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tenders wrote:
This is interesting. I owned a 1986 2-stroke Honda Spree in the ‘80s that had oil injection and I can’t recall such a thing as “premix” oil or “injector” oil - it was all just 2-stroke oil. However, that engine required a muffler decarbonization every 2000 miles or so and the effect on performance as the carbon built up over time was very noticeable.

As far as I can tell that carbonization process doesn’t happen any more with modern 2-strokes and this fancy injection-only oil. Perhaps the smoke is being caused by “old school” oil that in an “old school” scooter would have been turned into carbon?


Oils have changed a great deal since the 80s. Now we have 2T full synthetic which burns much cleaner. Premix and auto lube are different viscosities.

Yes...you will get small amounts of water vapor from your exhaust. Water vapor is part of that stuff called "air".

Running for even a few minutes without oil is still a bad idea. It's kinda like saying "I'll just put my hand on that running belt sander for 2 minutes...that should be ok."

There is a ton of information on this site regarding carb adjustment and tuning however it is not as easy as many people make it out to be to get it right.

_________________
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message   Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forums » General Discussion Previous topic :: Next topic  Time: GMT

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

  Scootergear designed by riders for riders


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
All Content Copyright 2007-2011 by Modern Buddy. All Rights Reserved.