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Buddy upgrade to 210cc!!!
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Parkerl
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08 Buddy Pamplona

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Buddy upgrade to 210cc!!! Reply with quote

Just stopped by my local dealer today and he was telling me that in a few weeks they are coming they are getting a kit that will upgrade you buddy to 210cc!!! has anyone else heard anything about this little kit?
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Corsair
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I'm going to play skeptic on this one
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Drumwoulf
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy upgrade to 210cc!!! Reply with quote

Parkerl wrote:
Just stopped by my local dealer today and he was telling me that in a few weeks they are coming they are getting a kit that will upgrade you buddy to 210cc!!! has anyone else heard anything about this little kit?


Whew...!!
You mean a lil' Buddy will soon be able to pass my GT200? Shocked
Well, if ya got the guts for it, go for it! Twisted Evil

But as fir me, hey the tiny Buddy 125 scares the s++t out of me at the speeds it's capable of now! -You put 210cc's in her, then you'd better start hanging some weights on for ballast too...!! Very Happy

Sheeeesh!! Wink

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jfrost2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will this work for a 125? ir just the 150? 210cc (probably just 200cc) is still alot better and would be a very nice mod Wink
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Parkerl
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08 Buddy Pamplona

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know if it will work for the 125 but i would hope so!
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jmazza
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmm... sounds very unlikely...
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jrsjr
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's got to be the hottest rumor since the flux capacitor power unit for the Blur. A 210cc kit, a carb and a pipe and you can just wheelie everywhere you go from now on. Never put any more wear on your front tire. Ever. Twisted Evil

Pssst. This is reverse magik I'm working here. Since I'm always wrong, I figure if I poo poo this rumor, Scooterworks will be shipping 210 kits next week. Wouldn't that be sweet? Hope. Hope.
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5 bud7
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I beleive this would be too much for the buddy's size. The rear brake would need to be a disc. If this scooter went much faster it would be unstable. I think 150 cc's is plenty for the size.
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scullyfu
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrsjr wrote:
Pssst. This is reverse magik I'm working here. Since I'm always wrong, I figure if I poo poo this rumor, Scooterworks will be shipping 210 kits next week. Wouldn't that be sweet? Hope. Hope.


hmmm. sounds suspiciously like george costanza's 'opposite' theory. Laughing

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jmazza
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
jrsjr wrote:
Pssst. This is reverse magik I'm working here. Since I'm always wrong, I figure if I poo poo this rumor, Scooterworks will be shipping 210 kits next week. Wouldn't that be sweet? Hope. Hope.


hmmm. sounds suspiciously like george costanza's 'opposite' theory. Laughing


Haha great episode. Just caught it last night again. "I'm the exact opposite of every guy you've ever dated!" classic.
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Parkerl
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 bud7 wrote:
I beleive this would be too much for the buddy's size. The rear brake would need to be a disc. If this scooter went much faster it would be unstable. I think 150 cc's is plenty for the size.


They have come out with a kit that up grades your brakes also
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Corsair
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember how they scrapped the original kit for the 125 Sad
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jfrost2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to doubt this kit is offical or even a name brand after market kit. It may just be custom work done by someone the dealer knows.

The topic of the title is also misleading, making me feel like you upgraded your own bike to 210cc and had proof.
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Dan Buddy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it would work it would be fun to install on a Blur!
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Keys
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I've been holding out for a 250cc Buddy. Same small size, better suspension and brakes. Nirvana!!

--Keys Cool

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Corsair
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want my Buddy to be able to comfortably do a REAL actual 65-70mph Very Happy
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5 bud7
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parkerl, can you give me names and companys for the brake upgrades. To me, this is the weak point of the scooter. Refering to the rear one mostly.
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Parkerl
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 bud7 wrote:
Parkerl, can you give me names and companys for the brake upgrades. To me, this is the weak point of the scooter. Refering to the rear one mostly.


I dont know but when my dealer gets them in i will let you kow! Very Happy
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gt1000
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parkerl wrote:
5 bud7 wrote:
I beleive this would be too much for the buddy's size. The rear brake would need to be a disc. If this scooter went much faster it would be unstable. I think 150 cc's is plenty for the size.


They have come out with a kit that up grades your brakes also


Naturally, I have no idea if this is substantive or merely rumor. However, when you start talking about upgrading your cylinder head, exhaust, carb and brakes (what about rollers and suspension?), you're talking about serious money. And while upgrading the front brake to a larger disc and/or multi-piston caliper would be relatively simple, swapping out the rear drum for a new disc system is another thing altogether. Now, if you did a good job of massaging the front system the rear is much less of an issue. In fact, for me, the rear brake is a non issue anyway.

On the surface, it all sounds wrong to me but what do I know? If it does turn out to be true I'll definitely try to arrange a test ride.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if this is the same 210 but here are some pics from flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chi_nitro/sets/72157602214937475/
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genuine/Scooterworks has a LOT of performance stuff in the pipeline, so I wouldn't be surprised, but keep in mind (some of this has been brought up):


-the Buddy would need some serious brake/suspension upgrades and probably some frame reinforcement to be safe with that kind of power. And you'd probably need a new carburetor to deliver enough gas.
-performance parts typically reduce reliability, and they generally wear faster and need to be replaced more often.
-You'd be voiding your warranty and probably not street-legal.
-it won't be cheap, especially when you consider all the other stuff you'd need to do, and the wear/tear. You'll end up spending enough that you might as well buy a 250cc scooter.
-your mileage would drop considerably, and the Buddy doesn't have a very big tank.

If it does exist, I'm thinking it's a racing setup and it's not something you can bolt on and go 80mph on the street, you're talking a lot of labor and a lot of mods.

For most Buddy owners, I'd think a 150cc top-end upgrade (which I assume will become available at some point, the bottom end is the same, right?) would make a lot more sense, but even that wouldn't be cheap.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused, we've never had any problem with the REAR brakes on a Buddy. Does your rear brake NOT skid the rear wheel if you squeeze it with authority?

If it can skid the back wheel (I know it can) then it's more than adequate and doing all that can be asked of it. As the braking forces shift the center of gravity forward on your scooter your rear wheel becomes unloaded. The last thing you want is a rear brake that locks up easier or quicker.

If your rear brake is giving you too much lever travel, or doesn't seem to be stopping you effectively, I recommend checking your adjustment nut.

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5 bud7 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:55 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parkerl, can you give me names and companys for the brake upgrades. To me, this is the weak point of the scooter. Refering to the rear one mostly.
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gt1000
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm confused, we've never had any problem with the REAR brakes on a Buddy. Does your rear brake NOT skid the rear wheel if you squeeze it with authority?

If it can skid the back wheel (I know it can) then it's more than adequate and doing all that can be asked of it. As the braking forces shift the center of gravity forward on your scooter your rear wheel becomes unloaded. The last thing you want is a rear brake that locks up easier or quicker.


Exactly. And precisely why I said, for me, the rear brake is a non issue. The last thing you want is to lock your rear wheel at high speed. Many riders will instinctively react the wrong way and high side.

Doing this on a heavily modified small frame capable of 70 mph is a horrific thought.

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babblefish
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 180cc kit for the Blur requires machine work on the crankcase in order to make it fit so if this upcoming kit is real and not vaporware, it would also require the same. Doing this requires a complete disassembly of the engine.
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jrsjr
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

babblefish wrote:
The 180cc kit for the Blur requires machine work on the crankcase in order to make it fit so if this upcoming kit is real and not vaporware, it would also require the same. Doing this requires a complete disassembly of the engine.

Sounds like a Business Opportunity to me. Shocked Wait a minute. What 180 kit?!? [EDIT: Oh, for the Blur...]


Last edited by jrsjr on Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The back brakes seem to only be good to slow you down, to stop really quickly you hit the front brake and you stop immediately. When you enter a turn at too much speed you can only use the back brake to correct your situation. this is when I feel it is not atiquate. Thanks everyone for their input,
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gt1000
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I never use the Buddy's rear drum to scrub off speed, especially entering a curve too hot. The nature of drum brakes is that impending lockup is much more difficult to feel than with a disc. If you lock up that rear wheel in a turn, there's a good chance you're going to be really unhappy. Fortunately, and probably by design, the Buddy's rear brake takes a firm pull to lock up. You're much better off with a gentle application of the front disc if you feel you're too fast.

If you find yourself braking often entering a turn, you're riding too fast. Set up your twisties before you enter them and stay off the brakes. Even if you don't wind up braking too hard you're still upsetting the balance of the bike by braking in a turn. Combine this with a slick spot or a little gravel and you have trouble brewing. Ideally, you want to enter a turn at the correct speed and power through the apex. Braking after entry screws up everything.

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ericalm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 bud7 wrote:
I beleive this would be too much for the buddy's size. The rear brake would need to be a disc. If this scooter went much faster it would be unstable. I think 150 cc's is plenty for the size.

I'm with you on this one. I'm really skeptical that the Buddy would be a stable, safe ride at the kind of speeds it could do with a 210 kit. 190cc plus a variator upgrade on my Vespa LX really pushes it to its limits—I know how fast is probably too fast for city riding on a scoot that size and weight with wheels that size (see below).

Corsair wrote:
I just want my Buddy to be able to comfortably do a REAL actual 65-70mph Very Happy

As suggested above, my kitted LX will do that, but be careful what you wish for. At a certain point, it just doesn't make sense to make a Buddy (or any scoot) any faster; these models are just not made to cruise at over 70mph. That's what GTs/GTSs, etc. are for. Now if the 250cc 4-stroke LML PX clone comes over as a Stella 250, I'll be first in line for one. Smile

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Corsair
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
At a certain point, it just doesn't make sense to make a Buddy (or any scoot) any faster


I just love the size that the Buddy currently is. The GTS and scooters of that size just seem to be something completely different. The Buddy has become my commuter and a lot of the roads I have to take require me to ride full throttle just to not get run over ...lol (you how it goes if the posted speed limit is 50 everyone is doing 60-65). For me an extra 5-10mph would make a world of difference. I'm not complaining... just wishing Smile

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ericalm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corsair wrote:
ericalm wrote:
At a certain point, it just doesn't make sense to make a Buddy (or any scoot) any faster


I just love the size that the Buddy currently is. The GTS and scooters of that size just seem to be something completely different. The Buddy has become my commuter and a lot of the roads I have to take require me to ride full throttle just to not get run over ...lol (you how it goes if the posted speed limit is 50 everyone is doing 60-65). For me an extra 5-10mph would make a world of difference. I'm not complaining... just wishing Smile

Yeah, I'm not even talking about 60-65mph or so... But over 70, things get kind of hairy for me on the Vespa—on a Buddy it'd be pretty scary.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually had mine up to an indicated 80 (pegged the meter) twice. Felt just as stable as it did at 50.

--Keys Cool

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Corsair
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keys wrote:
I actually had mine up to an indicated 80 (pegged the meter) twice. Felt just as stable as it did at 50.

--Keys Cool


how the heck did you get it up to an indicated 80?! I guess the stability is a matter of opinion because I DEFINITELY feel comfortable going wide open on my Buddy... If the Buddy could give me more I would use it Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've gotten to an indicated 75 with no feeling of out of control or squirrely behavior
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Front brakes on two wheeler and four wheelers account for approx. 75% of the stopping power, why ? because the front break is the inertia stopper the rear brake especially drum brakes, (not to exclude disc rear brakes) act more like a bicycle coaster brake and skid you to a halt, the front brake is the big forward momentum / inertia stopper, so what I'm saying I guess is that the rear brake will never stop you as well or quickly as the front brake.

Its physics, there nothing is we can do to change it.........

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

210cc?
In my eyes the Buddy 125 is stable at speed, though I haven’t got the little thing much faster than 70, indicated. But, I would question if the frame – was it designed for higher speeds, I mean will there be undue stress put on the little frame, will it prematurely fail, will the suspension hold up to emergency maneuvers; and, I know for a fact the stock 06 models do not have the proper tires for the sustained speeds the larger motor would allow.
And, of course the question of the brakes which are just great at lower speeds but will they or were they designed for higher speeds and or the greater weight of a larger motor and additional bracing necessary for a larger motor.
Everything seems OK at the lower speeds we run – I question; will it handle greater loads?
So; I don’t think Genuine will be making a 210cc motor for a standard 125cc scooter frame.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keys wrote:
I actually had mine up to an indicated 80 (pegged the meter) twice. Felt just as stable as it did at 50.

--Keys Cool

Yes, but you're a Megastud. Razz
And 80 indicated is probably just about 70mph actual (if not a little less). Not to belittle your accomplishments in speed... So imagine adding another 10-15mph (actual) on top of that. At those speeds, on a scoot this size and weight, the differences in potential issues with handling, braking, stability, vibration and so on are rather huge.

I'm sure that some of the instability is in my head (well, that's what I'm often told). My first thought when hauling ass: "When did I last check my tire pressure?" I kind of psych myself out. It may be that those with more experience with MCs and bigger scoots are simply more comfortable at those speeds. But I also wonder about the issues rajron mentions above, even when riding my steel-bodied scoot.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
And 80 indicated is probably just about 70mph actual (if not a little less). Not to belittle your accomplishments in speed... So imagine adding another 10-15mph (actual) on top of that.


THAT'S why I want a 250cc Buddy!!!

And the indicated 80 was downhill from Flagstaff towards Sedona on Hwy 89A.

--Keys Cool

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, an indicated 45 is fast enough for me! Smile Beyond that, I start to imagine myself flying over the handle bars and landing a la Eviel Knieval at Caesar's:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kYGGCVE2lKY
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pocphil wrote:

If your rear brake is giving you too much lever travel, or doesn't seem to be stopping you effectively, I recommend checking your adjustment nut.


I think this is due to just not checking up on the bike after it breaks in. One of the first things I noticed was the stretch or wearing in of the rear brake on the 50cc Genuines. Just a few twists on the adjuster usually takes up the slack and returns the braking power and feel. Though still not the same as a nice rear disc.

As to needing a lot of upgrades to the brakes, suspension and chassis if the buddy displacement went up I'd have to disagree that it would be required. Better components like that would always be nice. But it's not like it would be recklessly unsafe. Many older motorcycles with far more power have done ok with drums. It's not great but only puts more responsibility on the rider to ride sensibly with their new power. The Buddy 50 front springs could use some upgrading but other 50cc two strokes with similar a similar chassis are often tuned up to and over 20 HP and do legitimate 75-80 mph. And when something goes catastrophically wrong on these race bikes I don't think it's the chassis. Usually twisted crank shafts and melted cylinders. With more power you'll get more energy thrown around and, all things being equal, will increase risk. There's no way to legitimately say, 'I want more power/speed but everything else, should stay the same'. Given the same tires and road, if you are going faster, you're going to have to brake earlier. No way around it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy upgrade to 210cc!!! Reply with quote

Parkerl wrote:
Just stopped by my local dealer today and he was telling me that in a few weeks they are coming they are getting a kit that will upgrade you buddy to 210cc!!! has anyone else heard anything about this little kit?


Im having a hard time beliving that a readily available kit would be on the market. it certainly wouldnt be anything you would just bolt on. usually the 4t motors are limited in bore by the timing chain chase (and maintaining a reasonable wall thickness), so going that big would probably require a stroker crank, which would require case machining to get it to fit. it isnt to say that it isnt possible, because it is, just not going to be anything cheap or easy to do.

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Parkerl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not a kit that you will be able to put on yourself you dealer will do all the work for you. i dont know what the pricing will be like i will ask my dealer for more information when i go in this weekend.
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parkerl wrote:
Its not a kit that you will be able to put on yourself you dealer will do all the work for you. i dont know what the pricing will be like i will ask my dealer for more information when i go in this weekend.


Please do, I'm curious.

I don't know 4-strokes that well, but I'm just doing the math in my head, for that big of an upgrade, I'm thinking you'd need (at least)

cylinder (and head?)
rings/wrist pin
crank
replace bearings or at least seals, because you're in there
carburetor and jets

and that's at least $500 worth of stuff, not including labor, which would take at least 2-3 hours. If you needed a new head, that might mean a new cam and valves, right?

Then, to buck up the rest of the scooter, you'd probably want to upgrade the front and maybe rear brakes, and put some better shocks on, and a new pipe, that's another $300 or $500, plus labor.

Those prices are all based on similar parts for other scooters, if you're talking about the Buddy, they'd probably have to develop it and have it custom made just for the U.S. market, and the retail price is going to be even higher because they're not going to be able to sell nearly as many as if it was for a scooter that was more common worldwide. Sure, maybe it's something NCY or PGO was working on anyway so Genuine won't be eating those costs, but I still think it seems a bit unlikely, not because it's impossible, but because the cost to the consumer would be too high to make it worthwhile. By the time you're spending $1000 or more to upgrade your scooter, you might as well look at other scooters.

Even if it's a sure thing, I'm the buzzkill telling you that you probably can't afford it. If I'm wrong and it is available and it's affordable, well, then, that's awesome. : )

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illnoise
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll shut up now, here are photos of it, ha.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chi_nitro/sets/72157602214937475/

That's Patrick in Chicago, looks like he took photos of a prototype at Scooterworks.

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Corsair
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

illnoise wrote:
I'll shut up now, here are photos of it, ha.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chi_nitro/sets/72157602214937475/

That's Patrick in Chicago, looks like he took photos of a prototype at Scooterworks.



Shocked

unfriggin believable! now will it actually be released???

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BGK
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lots

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

illnoise wrote:
I'll shut up now, here are photos of it, ha.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chi_nitro/sets/72157602214937475/

That's Patrick in Chicago, looks like he took photos of a prototype at Scooterworks.


Nice! It will be interesting to see how it works out.
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rajron
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bite my lip - When?
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twharton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will that void the warranty? Shocked


Honestly with just a medium windscreen and Prima pipe by Buddy 125 will get to 70 and that's plenty fast for me. I won't lie that I'm intrigued but I think something just a little more substantial would be safer, as safe as two wheels can be with all those cagers out there.

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jrsjr
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at 7:06 illnoise wrote:
...but I still think it seems a bit unlikely


at 7:09 illnoise wrote:
I'll shut up now, here are photos of it, ha.

That's what I call a rapid reversal. Shocked
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my new thing, the flip-flop. Like with Andretti.

Now, it's just up to Genuine to get the kit out, and for Andretti to not suck.

Bb.

(PS, sorry, John, i edited your post instead of quoting it, I fixed it but if you got a notice that I edited your post, that's why)

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monza
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

illnoise wrote:
I'll shut up now, here are photos of it, ha.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chi_nitro/sets/72157602214937475/

That's Patrick in Chicago, looks like he took photos of a prototype at Scooterworks.


To be honest though, as much as I like Scooterworks/Genuine, their follow through on some of these kit plans hasnt been exactly stelar. I will be surprised if they release this. Im not saying it wont happen, just not probable, especially since they dont have anything in between as far as kits. Going from stock 125/150 to 210 that requires major disassembly without having some intermediate kit available? I cant imagine what this would cost to have installed. Figure atleast $750 in parts (for a jug, head, piston, crank carb, etc...). Then hours of labor.

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